24/02/22 - Eight men (Owen McMahon, four sons and a McMahon employee) were shot dead at their home in Kinnaird Terrace, Belfast. According to survivors, police officers were behind the murders.
08/06/26 - One man (Stephen Ogilvie) was taken to hospital with slash wounds to his back, face and eye injuries after an attack in Kinnaird Avenue, Belfast. According to some reports, his attacker (Hadi Alodid) had briefly served as a police officer in Sudan.
Chilling proof, if needed, that history in this country doesn’t necessarily repeat itself, but it does rhyme.
♞♜♝
Similarly, the subsequent rioting and torching of homes that we’ve seen played out over the last few days is utterly sickening. Seeing families targeted because of their skin colour should be anathema to everyone. There is no excuse for intimidation or pogroms of any kind and the fact that this is the third instance of rioting over immigrants in the North in less than three years is a depressing thought.
A lesser discussed impact of the pogroms is that it allows the political establishment act as the moral authority and ignore the underlying causes and tensions that have led to such nihilistic violence.
♞♜♝
Let’s state the obvious: to the average citizen it feels like this country is at breaking point:
- stagnant wages
- high cost of living
- lack of new housing
- faltering NHS
- a road system which gridlocks if someone sneezes
- petty crime seemingly going unpunished
- hypocritical and unaccountable political system
- withdrawal of communities into individual silos
- a society that no longer believes in itself
These, of course, are not unique to the North. Many countries in the West and the United States are faced with these problems as well.
But when mass immigration, in particular the way it's been handled by the political system, is thrown into the mix; things become explosive. This is because it’s the most obvious example of change in a society like the North which was (and still is) overwhelmingly white. Of course, there has been immigration in the past: Vietnamese, Black British, Nigerian, Sudanese, Kenyan, African, Pakastani, Chinese, Indian, Turkish, Italian, Israeli, Polish, Greeks and Cypriots have all made the North their home and we should be proud of how they have not only become part of the furniture, so to speak, but that many run successful businesses and give back to their respective areas.
However, in recent years, the number of new arrivals has increased dramatically. Once again, this is not a unique situation to this country, but it is the first time demographics have shifted not just visibly but also at great speed. Change will always happen and nowhere is immune. But change that would normally happen over a span of 50 odd years has happened in the space of 10-15 years. If handled incorrectly, the end result can lead to parallel lives, impact on already stretched health and social services, housing and a grave sense of alienation and displacement among people which can be difficult for some to articulate. If ignored by left wing commentators, it gives the far right the equivalent of a penalty kick.
And quite a few commentators from across the political spectrum have been doing that in recent days.
♞♜♝
Let’s look at a few examples, two from the left and two from the right:
Claire Hanna (SDLP):
The violence in North Belfast was horrific, the video will create fear and shock. No good will come of sharing it or of turning on each other in this society, including for the clout of online voices who don’t know or care about us and who offer absolutely nothing for the future.
On the face of it, this seems to be a reasonable request not to share the horrific footage of the attack and it’s certainly true that various terminally online types have been sharing it not only as an example of the “suicide of the West” but also because their nihilistic world view is partially quenched by such sick footage.
However, when you consider that initial news reports suggested that the incident was merely a stabbing, the tweet can also be considered an attempt to stifle discussion and downplay the severity of the attack. Considering trust in both legacy and new media is at an all-time low (who could forget "firey but mostly peaceful protests" in 2020), I don’t think this is an unreasonable conclusion to draw.
Anthony McIntyre:
The person arrested on suspicion of last night's attack is reported by the PSNI to be a Sudanese national. That has kickstarted a surge in anti-immigrant rhetoric from quarters which were much less vociferous when Ian Ogle was knifed to death in Belfast in 2019. Ogle's killers, because they identified as white and British, did not provoke the same rabid outcry that we are familiar with when the attacker is a different colour. The Irish News has reported that 'far-right activist Tommy Robinson and tech billionaire Elon Musk amplified calls for people to take to the streets in response to the incident.'
Obfuscation, pure and simple.
Firstly, Ian Ogle was stabbed in the chest and then stamped on the head by a gang of men. An evil murder undoubtedly, but one that we have (sadly) seen many times. By contrast, Ogilvie was slashed repeatedly, has lost much of his eyesight with some witnesses believing that it was an attempt at beheading. Leaving aside the 50-year-old example of the Shankill Butchers, that is highly unusual for a killing in Belfast.
Secondly, the background of Ogle’s murder involved the East Belfast UVF, long standing grudges and family ties. At the time of writing this piece, we don’t know the full story of what led to Alodid’s actions but I would be surprised if it was as expansive as Ogle’s.
Thirdly, Mackers knows fine rightly that the discussion surrounding this case will inevitably touch on mass immigration, especially now that the Home Office has confirmed that Alodid had entered the UK in 2023 (supposedly via Dublin) and was granted refugee status the same year until 2028. Writing in 2024, Mackers made his views clear:
I'm fine with immigration but not fine with suppressing any opinion that is not fine with it. The government have not yet explained how they are going to make it practical. They do not provide the infrastructure and leave it to the leftoids to label those who ask questions about the infrastructure deficiency as far right and racist. Time out of number I have said to people that if they accuse everybody of being far right they will create a far right much more virulent than it currently is.
Yes, the likes of Elon Musk and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon have inflamed the situation but the implication that ordinary people who feel that the North is spiraling out of control have to be manipulated by such types is what the kids refer to as a cope: for many, the video of the crime confirmed their worst fears. They didn’t need anyone to tell them to be angry.
Now let’s look at the right.
Fergus Mason:
Is anyone actually stupid enough to believe that the family of Stephen Ogilvie, who is currently in a coma with hideous injuries after being attacked by an imported savage, would write a bland statement about the importance of immigration to the hospitality sector? The government's fingerprints are all over this.
Leaving aside the blatant racism, this commentator doesn’t seem to consider the possibility that the Ogilvie family (as well as Stephen) may not be bigots and do genuinely value the importance of immigrants contributing to society, particularly within the NHS.
Disturbingly, it can also be interpreted as an attempt to dehumanise workers who are already facing a rising tide of racist abuse in our aforementioned overstretched society. Such views are abhorrent to the average person.
Paul Golding:
Leaving aside the blatant racism, this commentator doesn’t seem to consider the possibility that the Ogilvie family (as well as Stephen) may not be bigots and do genuinely value the importance of immigrants contributing to society, particularly within the NHS.
Disturbingly, it can also be interpreted as an attempt to dehumanise workers who are already facing a rising tide of racist abuse in our aforementioned overstretched society. Such views are abhorrent to the average person.
Paul Golding:
I hate the IRA, but fair play to those staunch republican for telling the African invader to get the fuck out of Belfast.
Filming a man minding his own business and proceeding to racially abuse him = staunch republican? Fuck away off with that bullshit. The cunt filming that video would have run a mile if he’d been asked to help out the republican movement back in the day.
The reason it’s important to look at both sides is to see how one fails to address some core issues while the other offers a blinkered, hate-filled response to a complex issue. And there’s evidence that the traditional barrier of ‘themmuns and usuns’ that has demarcated the debate on mass immigration along nationalist and unionist lines may not be as sturdy as some think.
Filming a man minding his own business and proceeding to racially abuse him = staunch republican? Fuck away off with that bullshit. The cunt filming that video would have run a mile if he’d been asked to help out the republican movement back in the day.
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The reason it’s important to look at both sides is to see how one fails to address some core issues while the other offers a blinkered, hate-filled response to a complex issue. And there’s evidence that the traditional barrier of ‘themmuns and usuns’ that has demarcated the debate on mass immigration along nationalist and unionist lines may not be as sturdy as some think.
Writing in Unherd, Aris Roussinos noted that there were scenes in North Queen Street and Ardoyne that suggested that it may not be long before nationalist areas have their own migrant riots. If true, this would be a grave inversion of the 1932 Belfast Outdoor Relief Strike (again, history rhyming but not repeating) and would dent the idea of Irish nationalism as a progressive force.
In some ways, globalisation has now given the situation in this country a wedge that has pushed both sides even further apart: nationalism/republicanism (generally) have gone Eurocentric as it allows for a decent facsimile of a united Ireland while unionists/loyalists (generally) have gone in a Brexit style direction as they feel disillusioned with the peace process. Both of these differing stances, combined with a decaying infrastructure, loss of common bond among communities, disconnect between elected representatives and the voters and stagnant wages, has added an extra layer of gunpowder onto a tinderbox which Hadi Alodid inadvertently set off with his evil, frenzied attack.
We live in deeply toxic times and genuine adults need to step up and avert an oncoming crisis.
♞♜♝
Writing in 2011 about the then recent London riots, Kenan Malik correctly diagnosed the malaise and offered up words that we must live by:
Because the right has appropriated the arguments about moral failure, many on the left have rejected moral arguments altogether. The left talks much about the social and economic impact of neo-liberal policies. But little about its moral impact. Such wilful blindness is dangerous. The questions about economic and social poverty, about unemployment and the cuts, are closely related to the questions about moral poverty, about the breakdown of social solidarity and the rise of a nihilistic culture. There can be no challenge to mass unemployment and the imposition of austerity without the restoration of bonds of social solidarity. We cannot, in other words, confront economic poverty if we do not also confront moral poverty. We need to remake our own language of morality, reforge our own moral norms.
⏩ Christopher Owens was a reviewer for Metal Ireland and finds time to study the history and inherent contradictions of Ireland. He is currently the TPQ Friday columnist and is the author of A Vortex of Securocrats and “dethrone god”.
Is there mass immigration to the North?
ReplyDeleteThe figures don't seem to support the claim. The last I saw it was at around 6%. While it depends on what constitutes mass, most commentary tends to place that at the lower end.
The itemisation of breaking point factors would readily explain dissatisfaction but what gets the blame for the cause of dissatisfaction is mediated, filtered and framed by discourses and ideologies. I would imagine that nationalists feel these grievances even more given the history of the North yet they don't seem to be blaming 'mass' immigration or hating immigrants and burning them out, while probably having more immigrants in their community given the hostility expressed towards immigrants in other communities. Racist framing has amplified its own ideological talking points in the hope of creating a moral panic.
The reason I think this incident took off is not because it was any more violent than Ian Ogle (It wasn't as Mr Ogle is dead) but because it was captured on camera, and racists framed it to suit a pre-existing narrative.
I understand that the discussion around this issue will focus on mass immigration (which might not even be an accurate way of describing the figures in the North). I know it because I also know that is how the racists wanted it framed and have been working assiduously for quite some time to have in place the mechanisms to exploit the moment when it arrives.
So what is obfuscating here - my own take or the one expressed in this piece? For what it is worth, I didn't think a lot of my own piece as it was rushed out but the response to it was that it brought clarity rather than obfuscation. But I guess it is for others to decide the merits of the respective perspectives.
My views from 2024 are the same views I hold today. In a democratic society people should be free to oppose immigration policy, abortion policy, whatever policy that they disagree with. They should not be labelled racist or fascist for doing do. But that does not mean we give a free pass to those who hate immigrants rather then oppose immigration policy. And what we had around the Kinnaird Avenue incident was not opposition to immigration but the same type of hatred that we saw inflicted on the Quinn family.
AM,
Delete6% certainly what has been reported via recent census surveys. However, as the Office of National Statistics have admitted, undocumented populations are often under counted. This has led to a think tank at the University of Oxford to suggest there could be between 500,000 and 1 million undocumented migrants in the UK alone. Coupled with a recent revelation from Channel 4 that Keir Starmer’s supposed crackdown on the asylum backlog has just meant people are being moved from one queue to another, I think it’s safe to say that the system is murky and difficult to get a proper gage.
As I’m sure you know all too well, nationalist areas (particularly West Belfast) have a zombie like devotion to Sinn Fein and this has worked in tempering outright racism, framing it as ‘themuns vs usuns’ as I’ve already discussed. I remember various reports of immigrants being attacked in Tate’s Avenue in the mid 00’s. Around that time, one taxi driver (from Kenya) told me that it was always loyalist areas where there was a chance of trouble and never nationalist.
I don’t believe that you can look at this case in isolation. With the already discussed issues in my piece and the perception among quite a few people in North Belfast that there has been a notable shift in demographics has left some adrift and alienated, feeling that the city has changed in quick fashion. Two cases this year further add to this perception: last month, a man was arrested in the Holylands for running at a cop with a knife and shouting ‘Allahu Akbar’ (his lawyers claim he was juiced). In March, three men were charged with the rape of a woman in the same area. Obviously these are crimes that have been committed here numerous times but when you consider the alienation factor, the fact that the accused in each case are migrants increases the alienation tenfold: non-existent social solidarity is a deadly disease.
Racists will always try to exploit such incidents for their own end. That’s why it’s important to take the argument away from them and have a discussion around immigration and how many are crying out for a return to a more communitarian-based politics, one that is welcome towards immigrants but ensures that change happens naturally and gradually.
The system probably is murky but we extract from it as best we can and as it stands it seems tenuous to make the claim on the basis of that extraction that mass immigration exists. In a dispute over figures between the DUP and the Alliance Party, while the former claim that mass immigration exists the figures it gave didn't support such a claim.
DeleteI think there is something in your observation of SF and how it is deferred to. It is something to watch for the future.
I agree we should not look at the case in isolation - it is the other dots we decide to join it to. The dots I see are different from your own.
There should always be a discussion around immigration and other big policy issues. That includes the voices of people who think borders should be open and those who think borders should be closed. People who oppose immigration should not be shown the red card. People who hate immigrants should be shown it.
As for perceptions, we all carry them to some degree. I was walking home from Dundalk one dark evening and four young appearing people were coming towards me. I only relaxed when I saw they were black. Others might feel the opposite. But, there is no rational basis to either fear.
Simon comments
ReplyDeleteChristopher said:
If handled incorrectly, the end result can lead to parallel lives, impact on already stretched health and social services, housing and a grave sense of alienation and displacement among people which can be difficult for some to articulate.
The key phrase is "handled incorrectly". These things can happen to any society in which things are handled incorrectly even without mass migration. That is, if it is mass migration. Only 3.4% of Northern Ireland is made up of ethnic minorities and only 0.26% of the population are asylum seekers. Hardly mass migration. Mass migration,, is an emotive term used by the right to provoke anger.
The immigrant population shouldn't bear any of the blame for one immigrant anymore than I'm responsible for the hundreds, if not thousands of white people out rioting.
The West helps fuel wars across the globe, helps fuel climate change, then wonders why people flee death and persecution.
Educated people leave the North. Health care workers from Northern Ireland go to Australia then we are baffled and perplexed why people from developing countries come here. People cry out "Why do we allow this? It's breaking down the fabric of society!" No. It's racism and intolerance that breaks down the fabric of society.
There's no excuse for racism. There's no reason to be intolerant. It may be unusual to see people from different countries here. Big deal. Grow up. We should welcome more asylum seekers and more economic migrants. Why? Because if people are fleeing death or persecution we should provide sanctuary. If our population is getting older we should welcome economic migrants, otherwise the economy will slow down to a crawl.
The government is lacking in leadership. It should involve the community more and explain the merits of immigration without lecturing. There is a breakdown of trust but don't blame immigration. Blame the property speculators, the NAMA vultures, those landlords that exploit, the government that bails out banks but doesn't reward the tax payer but rewards shareholders with eventual dividends. The list of things the government gets wrong is endless and things are handled incorrectly but immigration is the least of our worries.
Anthony's post wasn't obfuscation. All examples will have their own qualities and there are bound to be differences. The point stands though. It's not violence that sparked the rioting but the ethnicity of the attacker.
Simon,
Deletethat is my own take on the term mass-immigration - one of those far right nerve touching words designed to shock. Christopher, however, is anything but far right or a bigot. I just think the terms does not grasp the reality of what is happening.
After many years of writing for the purposes of bringing clarity to whatever I write about, I don't think I have changed course all of a sudden and started out on a journey of obfuscating!!!!
Simon,
Delete“Mass migration,, is an emotive term used by the right to provoke anger.”
Only because it’s been allowed to become that due to the reticence of the left to allow for an unfiltered discussion around the topic.
“The immigrant population shouldn't bear any of the blame for one immigrant anymore than I'm responsible for the hundreds, if not thousands of white people out rioting.”
Where did I write that?
“The West helps fuel wars across the globe, helps fuel climate change, then wonders why people flee death and persecution.”
I don’t think the people living in working class areas have anything to do with this.
“Educated people leave the North.”
And?
“Health care workers from Northern Ireland go to Australia then we are baffled and perplexed why people from developing countries come here. People cry out "Why do we allow this? It's breaking down the fabric of society!" No. It's racism and intolerance that breaks down the fabric of society.”
Only racists argue that immigrants are the sole reason for the breakdown of society. Others note that there are more complex reasons (like the ones listed in the piece which you’ve conveniently ignored) and understand that immigrants are not to blame for them. But with immigration being something of a taboo subject among mainstream parties, the lack of discussion or even understanding around concerns inadvertently leads to the far right.
“There's no excuse for racism. There's no reason to be intolerant.”
Once again, where did I write that there were?
“It may be unusual to see people from different countries here. Big deal. Grow up. We should welcome more asylum seekers and more economic migrants. Why? Because if people are fleeing death or persecution we should provide sanctuary. If our population is getting older we should welcome economic migrants, otherwise the economy will slow down to a crawl.”
This attitude isn’t far from Zack Polanski’s infamous “... I don’t particularly want to wipe someone’s bum, and I’m very grateful for the people who do this work” line. We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time here by getting people into work while reducing the dependence on economic migrants, thus ensuring that workers have power in the work place and ensuring that recent arrivals do not have to rely on menial work.
“The government is lacking in leadership. It should involve the community more and explain the merits of immigration without lecturing.”
How can a government who can’t manage immigration properly have the moral authority to sell the benefits of the system?
“There is a breakdown of trust but don't blame immigration. Blame the property speculators, the NAMA vultures, those landlords that exploit, the government that bails out banks but doesn't reward the tax payer but rewards shareholders with eventual dividends.”
We can discuss how all of these have had negative impacts over the years. We don’t have to limit ourselves.
“The list of things the government gets wrong is endless and things are handled incorrectly but immigration is the least of our worries.”
Maybe for you, and bully for you if so, but others disagree. And dismissing such concerns doesn’t help.
“Anthony's post t wasn't obfuscation. All examples will have their own qualities and there are bound to be differences.”
It was.
“The point stands though. It's not violence that sparked the rioting but the ethnicity of the attacker.”
For the far right, yes. But if you’d bothered to read my piece, you’d note that I’m discussing other aspects of the case which tie together and could present a bigger problem if unchallenged.
Simon replies to Christopher Owens
DeleteFirstly are you seriously asking twice "Where did I write that?" I put anything you wrote in inverted commas. Not everything is a quote from you and I made that clear with, em, inverted commas. Everything else is mere discussion, for you and others to read if you choose to do so. It was directed towards the reader whoever that may be.
With regards to my statement on the wars and climate change you said "I don’t think the people living in working class areas have anything to do with this." I didn't single out the working class. In the West we're all responsible for the West's wars and climate change in different ways and levels of impact. Who we vote for, what products we buy, where we bank, what actions we take, how we treat the environment, what we say online. That's not the point, however.
The point is that it's our government who do these things then we think we can wash our hands of it and wonder why people flee looking for sanctuary. Burn them in their homeland and then burn them when the come here seeking refuge. Maybe not directing or flying the planes dropping the bombs but there are different levels of influence we have from major to minor. All the individual contributions add up.
You asked "'Educated people leave the North." And?'
I followed up the sentence. Let me elaborate. We feel entitled to travel the world as economic migrants but get annoyed when economic migrants from other countries come here. It's hypocrisy. It's racism.
You also criticised me for not acknowledging something you wrote. If I acknowledged everything you wrote we'd be here all day. Very few racists say that immigration alone is the problem. They nearly always have specious reasoning to back up why they say they're against immigration.
You said "We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time here by getting people into work while reducing the dependence on economic migrants, thus ensuring that workers have power in the work place and ensuring that recent arrivals do not have to rely on menial work."
Everyone is in favour of getting people into work but it's an aging population so we will need economic migrants no matter what. Even if we tackled the number of youngsters leaving education at 16 it would be a struggle to keep the economy going.
Some jobs local people just won't do. When I was a student in the early 1990s it was so notoriously difficult to get a lairage worker in the UK that many citizens of countries who would otherwise not be eligible for a visa got a special exemption to do this work. It isn't a new phenomenon.
It's not just menial work though. Many recent arrivals are highly skilled. We see some of them working as doctors in our hospitals. The unfortunate thing is they have a brain drain effect on their country of origin. Also, many Americans work in IT. If we feel entitled to travel the globe for work why can't others?
You said "How can a government who can’t manage immigration properly have the moral authority to sell the benefits of the system?"
In this age of accessible travel and global conflict what is the government doing wrong with managing immigration?
You said "We don’t have to limit ourselves."
We don't but we shouldn't blame the wrong person for the problem.
You said "And dismissing such concerns doesn’t help."
That's a standard reply. I explained my position throughout my reply, it's wasn't a simple dismissal. People have the right to have an opinion but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I explained why I disagreed.
You keep saying Anthony's piece was obfuscation yet you can't show why it was. Anthony argued that it was the person who carried out the attack that mattered to the racists and not the attack itself. Do you disagree?
You said "But if you’d bothered to read my piece, you’d note that I’m discussing other aspects of the case which tie together and could present a bigger problem if unchallenged." I did read your piece. I don't normally read your pieces but I made an exception due to the subject matter.
Simon (part 1):
Delete“Firstly are you seriously asking twice "Where did I write that?" I put anything you wrote in inverted commas. Not everything is a quote from you and I made that clear with, em, inverted commas. Everything else is mere discussion, for you and others to read if you choose to do so. It was directed towards the reader whoever that may be.”
This is the problem when you skim read my piece, decide you don’t like what I have to say and then throw in statements like “The immigrant population shouldn't bear any of the blame for one immigrant anymore than I'm responsible for the hundreds, if not thousands of white people out rioting” to show that not only are you a Good Person, but to imply that I somehow said the opposite in the piece.
“With regards to my statement on the wars and climate change you said "I don’t think the people living in working class areas have anything to do with this." I didn't single out the working class. In the West we're all responsible for the West's wars and climate change in different ways and levels of impact. Who we vote for, what products we buy, where we bank, what actions we take, how we treat the environment, what we say online.”
No we’re not. This is a view shaped by globalisation and the rejection of traditional morality as expressed by Kenan Malik in the end quote of my piece; where family, community and local institutions shaped our individual outlooks on right and wrong, making us realise that there are times when morality was not as simple as it looked, the state do that now in the guise of a set of predetermined rules, thus removing our individual autonomy. Besides, those millions who marched against the Iraq war made it clear that it wasn’t being done in their name yet the war went ahead.
“That's not the point, however.”
It kind of is, as it demonstrates your line of thinking which has helped inform your approach to the discussion. Anti-globalisation (once a staple of left-wing action/philosophy) has given way to a ‘one world nation’ school of thought that does not align with many working-class people. It’s entirely possible to be an Internationalist while being for national sovereignty.
“The point is that it's our government who do these things then we think we can wash our hands of it and wonder why people flee looking for sanctuary. Burn them in their homeland and then burn them when the come here seeking refuge. Maybe not directing or flying the planes dropping the bombs but there are different levels of influence we have from major to minor. All the individual contributions add up.”
There is truth in this (look at how US/NATO didn’t seem to think that taking out Gadaffi would cause any trouble), but that is the fault of politicians/army generals/foreign offices). It still has nothing to do with the working class.
“You asked "'Educated people leave the North." And?' I followed up the sentence. Let me elaborate. We feel entitled to travel the world as economic migrants but get annoyed when economic migrants from other countries come here. It's hypocrisy. It's racism.”
This is a brain dead take on the issue. Not only is there a serious amount of generalisation going on here but it downplays and ignores the differences between legal and illegal immigration. No one (except racists) is annoyed with legal immigration (be it economic, educational, reunification etc). All they want is the system to be managed properly. If you have parallel systems (one being your standard legal approach, one being asylum seeking, one being illegal) and the government doesn’t have a handle on any of them, that’s a serious problem as you don’t know who in the country and as we have seen in Britain, there have been quite a few who should have been denied access due to them having committed serious crimes in their own country. As for this elusive ‘we’, the only people who feel entitled to anything are arseholes. I certainly don’t feel entitled to go and work in another country unless I was approved by the appropriate authorities.
Simon (part 2):
Delete“You also criticised me for not acknowledging something you wrote. If I acknowledged everything you wrote we'd be here all day. Very few racists say that immigration alone is the problem. They nearly always have specious reasoning to back up why they say they're against immigration.”
Oh so you’re now just accusing me of racism despite me expressing my abhorrence at it? Is that what constitutes racism these days in your mind? Evidence be damned, what Simon thinks is the order of the day? Since your mind is already made up I should probably stop now but I’ll persevere to the end.
“You said "We can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time here by getting people into work while reducing the dependence on economic migrants, thus ensuring that workers have power in the work place and ensuring that recent arrivals do not have to rely on menial work." Everyone is in favour of getting people into work but it's an aging population so we will need economic migrants no matter what. Even if we tackled the number of youngsters leaving education at 16 it would be a struggle to keep the economy going.”
No they’re not. According to a recent report, 1.25million young people will not be in work or education within five years and already 530,000 are on benefits. According to Inside the Mind of a Young NEET, “many young people told us they wanted to work but felt they could not immediately cope with 35 or 40 hours a week’. Coupled with the rise in mental health diagnoses, people who could be perfectly capable of working with the necessary adjustments are being written off and left on the scrap heap. Worst of all, said people believe it and take it lying down.
“Some jobs local people just won't do. When I was a student in the early 1990s it was so notoriously difficult to get a lairage worker in the UK that many citizens of countries who would otherwise not be eligible for a visa got a special exemption to do this work. It isn't a new phenomenon.”
That is a serious problem and ties in with what I discussed above. Because of deindustrialisation, the demise of the working class as a political force and many other factors there are jobs that people consider beneath them. That is wrong.
“It's not just menial work though. Many recent arrivals are highly skilled. We see some of them working as doctors in our hospitals. The unfortunate thing is they have a brain drain effect on their country of origin. Also, many Americans work in IT.”
This is true and another example of being able to do two things at once: where you not only recruit highly skilled recent arrivals but you use them to train locals, thus we get the best of both worlds.
“If we feel entitled to travel the globe for work why can't others?”
I’ve addressed that elsewhere.
You said "How can a government who can’t manage immigration properly have the moral authority to sell the benefits of the system?" In this age of accessible travel and global conflict what is the government doing wrong with managing immigration?
I’m impressed that you wrote that with a straight face. Immigration is the number 1 hot button topic in Ireland and Britain, as well as Europe and the US. If they were doing a fine job, the topic wouldn’t have the same traction that it currently does.
“You said "We don’t have to limit ourselves." We don't but we shouldn't blame the wrong person for the problem.”
Where did I do that?
“You said "And dismissing such concerns doesn’t help." That's a standard reply. I explained my position throughout my reply, it wasn't a simple dismissal. People have the right to have an opinion but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I explained why I disagreed.”
Of course you’re entitled to disagree but when you use definitive statements like ‘Mass migration,, is an emotive term used by the right to provoke anger...There's no excuse for racism. There's no reason to be intolerant. It may be unusual to see people from different countries here. Big deal. Grow up’ you’re not only dismissing concerns but actively shutting the debate down.
Simon (part 3):
Delete“You keep saying Anthony's piece was obfuscation yet you can't show why it was.”
I demonstrated why it was in the piece. Try reading it properly instead of skim reading.
“Anthony argued that it was the person who carried out the attack that mattered to the racists and not the attack itself. Do you disagree?”
Further proof that you didn’t read the piece because if you did, you’d have noticed that I was discussing it through the lens of a normal person already at stretching point, plus the previous point was about how the media have downplayed or obfuscated other events around the world. Of course racists were only interested in Hadi Alodid and his skin colour but I wasn’t discussing that angle as it is akin to writing that water is wet.
“You said "But if you’d bothered to read my piece, you’d note that I’m discussing other aspects of the case which tie together and could present a bigger problem if unchallenged." I did read your piece. I don't normally read your pieces but I made an exception due to the subject matter.”
Firstly, you clearly didn’t otherwise you wouldn’t be making so many errors in judgement. Secondly, you probably intended that line to be some kind of mic drop moment but it reveals not only a lack of curiosity around literature and music, but also the type of person you are: blinkered, judgmental and ideologically driven. In other words, a bore who flings the word ‘racist’ about with abandon whenever confronted with someone who doesn’t align with him politically. The sort of person AM has castigated in the past.
There’s no point me discussing this with you any further as you’re acting in bad faith.
Simon,
DeleteI think it is very true that in the West we are all responsible to varying degrees for the wars and other problems the West causes. I think we are structurally placed in a situation where we cannot evade responsibility. We benefit materially from Western exploitation. At the same time I think some of us face up to that by distancing ourselves not from our responsibility as such but by dissenting from the structure that makes us responsible. I don't believe in original sin whereby it can be stated that we are all to blame. I think we share a responsibility but not the blame, if that is a distinction that works.
Christopher,
DeleteI think with national sovereignty people are no less sovereign if they decide to pool sovereignty. National sovereignty evolved to displace regional sovereignty and in time will be displaced by something wider. I think your objection is less about that trend and more about how democratic it actually is. The type of national sovereignty being shouted about in this part of the country is one that would best suit the rich, the clerics, the racists, the authoritarians, rather than one in which the working class is likely to be the main beneficiaries.
While I don't tub thump for it I would like to see a world government which does trump concepts like national sovereignty just as national sovereignty came to trump smaller sovereign units. At the same time, for the reasons you flag up in your writing, there is a dread about it. Because if it isn't democratic (and it is hard to envisage it being such in today's conditions) then it is easy to envisage repression on a massive scale.
I don't feel you were being accused by Simon of being racist but can understand the way that the comment was phrased gave you grounds to feel that. Anybody that has dealt with you over the years or read your stuff would be hard pressed to see you as a racist. If anything you seem to view racists and racism with contempt.
I don't see immigration as the hot button topic in Ireland. It seems to be housing. Those that promise to deliver a better deal get more people elected than those who want to stop immigration. The biggest rallies seem to about Gaza. When the conservative lobby take to the streets they seem to get bigger numbers around anti-abortion than they do on anti-Immigration.
While it is anecdotal, I spent a month canvassing for Catherine Connolly and it didn't come up. At the same time neither did housing. I think we were shouted at a couple of times, being accused of antisemitism, being commies, pro abortion or pro Russian.
What is very much happening is that the far right is seeking to make immigration the hot topic. Louth For Ever has written some insightful posts about how they organise and influence. Recent opinion polls down here suggest the majority of people support immigration.
I don't think the debate is being shut down by either you or Simon. It seems you have different explanations as to what is feeding the debate.
I feel that the sour note that has crept in across the debate makes it a bit more difficult to conduct but nobody has crossed the line.
But it is essential that people be allowed to oppose whatever policies they unhappy with. A democratic and secular culture is compromised when issues are subject to cancel culture. But all involved in this discussion understand that it is a waste of time trying to introduce cancel culture to TPQ.
Christopher,
Deleteyou might have demonstrated obfuscation to your own satisfaction but seemingly not much wider if the feedback both on and offline is a yardstick of how it is read. I think where we mystify something it is a valuable aid to have it pointed out and then we can amend accordingly. There was certainly nothing demonstrable in your piece that prompted me to think a tweak would be beneficial. It is a piece I read rather than speed read yet, still, I found no substance that I could work with.
It is not for me to judge my own piece because what is clear to me may seem like mud to readers. But the feedback suggests clarity rather than obfuscation. But even more germane than what I have written is the sheer volume of discourse now emerging which lends itself to the way I presented it.
Of course if I see a persuasive critique of what I have written on this or anything else I'll shift position in accordance with the Keynes quip:
When events change, I change my mind. What do you do?
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?
When someone persuades me that I am wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?
I don't want to be part of JK Galbraith's typology Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone opts for the latter.
To me a different idea is like a tackle on the pitch that takes the ball from you. It is not a foul, just the way the game is played.
I don't think either you or Simon are acting in bad faith even if a touch of bad temper has crept into the discussion. I think people reading what you have both said in conjunction with the above article will have gained from it.
Look this is my own experience so I really don't know what the "Official" numbers refer too so don't shoot me. When I grew up and schooled during the 80's and early 90's it was 99.9% white. We had Hong Kong Chinese ( who I'm still friends with to this day) but perhaps 1 Bangladeshi, one Mexican, one African.....and that was it. This was a school of about 800 in South Belfast.
ReplyDeleteIn the city, as a crude marker, the food options seldom ranged outside Fish and Chips or Chinese. Indian food did make inroads in the late 90s as more arrived. There were a few other notable exceptions and please feel free to add to this, in Egyptian/Greek souvlakis et al. I make reference to the food outlets for the simple reason being that recent immigrants in any society who need to make a living often find a market in this industry for immediate cash.
It is as true as here in Australia as anywhere.
I've been away for almost 3 decades and every single time I've returned the amount of immigrants clearly from Eastern Europe or Africa that I've seen not just in Belfast but in the 'commuter' towns has been remarkable. An example would be the very estate I grew up in. When I grew up it was 100% Anglo-Celt.
Now, my Dads neighbours are Romanian, childhood friends houses have Venezuelan families in them and the Poles, once viewed with suspicion for Catholicism are accepted because they very much get involved in the local community and are respected because of this.
For all the, occasionally fair enough, racism slurs aimed at my people I do point out the Loyalist bands who have very clearly black members in their ranks. Some immigrants DO integrate, though I will be the first to admit in outlier phenomenon. It happens. In saying that look the Northern Ireland men's football team, the most beloved players are 'half-caste' ( I hate that term) or a God like former GAA player who is Captain ( and I will never hear a bad word about him even if he plays for the red team of a city in the NE of England!)
So my question for all of you, particularly of the Republican persuasion , are you now suddenly believing in 'official British' headcounts?
What is your experience of the demographic change in your areas?
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do NOT take this as a petty racist/sectarian dog whistle, I really am genuinely interested in your honest opinions.
Fuck sectarianism, fuck racism. Be kind to everyone.
Steve - I think it will be taken in the spirit it was made. The last line catches your perspective pretty well.
DeleteIt is not just British head counts. More reliable agencies than that are carrying out these types of surveys.
When I walk through the streets of Drogheda or Dublin the predominant language is foreign - English 😂😂😂
Steve - I think there is no doubt that there is a demographic change, easily visible in some places more than others. It is not something that ever bothered me, it's actually something that in general I welcome, the specifics I hope would be obvious.
DeleteAs ever, I enjoy Christopher's articles. But I think there's a vital piece missing in his analysis of the background. Specifically:
ReplyDelete"Yes, the likes of Elon Musk and Stephen Yaxley-Lennon have inflamed the situation but the implication that ordinary people who feel that the North is spiraling out of control have to be manipulated by such types is what the kids refer to as a cope: for many, the video of the crime confirmed their worst fears. They didn’t need anyone to tell them to be angry."
I think this doesn't go deep enough into how the video impacted people - and it goes beyond making them angry: they were already scared and angry, and by design. There are people with vast social media reach who have warned that immigrants, particularly non-white immigrants, and especially Muslim immigrants, hate white people and want to kill them. If I remember correctly, a particularly virulent man, convicted of loyalist paramilitary offences pre & post GFA, was cautioned over posting a meme depicting a Muslim man having used a knife to murder children in a school.
I wish I'd kept a link, but someone posted a photo of two associates of Tommy Robinson who went over to France and slashed the inflatable small boats which, they said, were to have been used to cross the channel. The Twitter user, a woman whose name I can't remember said word to the effect of "before social media put them in a constant state of 'fight of flight' men like this would have probably gone on a trip like this for the fishing. They'd have been happy."
Elon Musk was broadcast at one of Robinson's rallies saying that "violence was coming for you."
So, there is a massive amount of confirmation bias going on. Repeated warnings that immigrants are going to murder white people are a constant feature of many people's life. And then a video/images show exactly what has been hyped up and warned of shows up.
My algorithms are mercifully, and purposefully, engineered to keep this kind of noise at a minimum - but it still gets through.
This is of course the extreme hard edge of the discourse about immigration, but it's an edge that has a ready audience and gets some people out on the streets burning homes and forcing their occupants out.
A further thought - the loyalist/unionist oft-repeated trope this immigration is somehow attributable to Sinn Fein is baffling. Also baffling is Sinn Fein seeming to basically not do anything to disabuse people of this notion.
TPQ is a good venue for debate on this subject. It's pleasant to see.
Brandon,
Deleteit pleases me that people see TPQ as a useful venue for debate. I hope it is so and that it continues to be so.
Christopher wrote the piece at my request and turned it out quite quickly. So we need to appreciate that even if we feel the argument is wrong in places.
Brandon,
DeleteThat is true (thankfully I have blocked both so I don’t see anything from them) re. confirmation bias. That, I would argue, ties in with living in a disconnected society where globalisation is the only game in town and things like tradition, heritage and history are dismissed by some as (at best) ‘populist’ and (at worst) ‘racist’. If there was a stronger sense of community and purpose among the PUL community other than preserving their culture, then I would argue that the far right would not have the same hold they have on them.
I would argue that, in contrast, the CNR community do have a strong sense of purpose owing to the history of republicanism, links with other struggles around the world and having adopted the Eurocentric approach, but it is bucking.
When it comes to Musk and Yaxley-Lennon, I think too many commentators hold them solely responsible and that not only gives them too much credit but it removes responsibility from people for their own actions, playing into the idea in some quarters that cracking down on free speech will make things better.
Re. the Shinners, bearing in mind how “themmuns” are aligning with the far right on this issue, I’m sure “usuns” take that as a compliment.
Brandon - To my mind, confirmation bias is spot on, along with observation bias and other biases, but bias in general is the point. There are, of course, other factors—such as framing and the often underestimated power of suggestion, to name but a few—and I agree, much is by design. It could be argued the fear is irrational. As for the anger, I think one would be hard-pressed to find anyone of sound mind who would be happy with such an incident, but then, of course, accumulative bias, framing, and suggestion come into play... for some. There were plenty of very angry people that chose not to seek out and burn immigrants (specifically immigrants with a darker shade of skin) out of their homes and possessions. Some biases are spawned out of personal hateful prejudice.
DeleteM L King in one of his speeches said rioting could be viewed as an expression of the unheard. My sense Christopher is pointing to something similar.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he is saying that. I take from his piece and earlier pieces that the unheard he feels have a legitimate grievance are those who oppose policy not those who hate people. He has made no defence of the racist rioting. The unheard that rioted in Belfast made it clear what it is they want heard: immigrants out, and burn them out if need be.
DeleteYour rebuttal is well made AM. I had a much longer comment addressing some points that Brandon made and Matt Bowen's response.
DeleteUnfortunately my broadband signal was poor and it didn't load up When I'm in the office and have better signal and time I'll return to this. Save but to say for now that I find it difficult to swallow that recent events are as they appear on the surface and are being disseminated.
Simon comments
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't have to explain myself on this. Christopher falsely claimed I called him a racist.
In his first reply to me Christopher said "Only racists argue that immigrants are the sole reason for the breakdown of society."
I replied: "Very few racists say that immigration alone is the problem. They nearly always have specious reasoning to back up why they say they're against immigration.”
I've seen this tactic before. Claiming someone is slandering someone else to shut down debate. I'll assume Christopher wasn't doing this and was just genuinely confused.