The Morning After

It’s great news and I’m flabbergasted it’s only happening now in 2011 when the pill itself has been available since the 1980s. I wasn’t aware that GPs would have the time or inclination for any ‘counselling’ after dispensing the morning after pill!? I recall getting it, in Dublin, way back in the mid 1980s….the only counselling back then involved being ‘scolded’ by a family planning doctor and given a polite warning that women like me “ended up on the boat” sooner or later … I’m sure we’ll hear more blubbering from the pro-life lobby and the last of the religious loons this week, waxing lyrical about how availability of this ‘abortive’ pill will encourage people to run out of their houses immediately and try to have sex. - June Caldwell

When I learned that Boots were to issue prescription-free morning after pills over the counter it struck me as a further strengthening of women’s rights and opportunities against those, some belonging to men only religious groups, who would try to impose their own manufactured morality on them.

The morning-after pill is an emergency measure that can prevent an unwanted pregnancy developing if taken in the first 72 hours after unprotected sex. The Family Planning Centre advise that it is likely to be more effective the earlier it is taken. The initiative by Boots cuts out the need for a doctor’s approval. With time not being lost by visits to doctors the effectiveness of the pill is increased. Boots have made a much needed move, long delayed. Better late than never.

Having, in the words of the Irish Times, spotted ‘an amendment to legislation in 2005 which meant emergency contraception could be offered by pharmacists if they operated under a protocol drawn up by a doctor’ Boots launched its initiative. The protocol for Boots has been drawn up by its own medical director, Dr Graham Marshal, who while based in Britain is registered with the Irish Medical Council.

There seems no good reason whatsoever – if we rule out religious bigotry and greedy doctors as constituting good reasons – for Ireland not to bring itself into line with other European societies including the North, where women have forced back the boundaries that so constrain their lives. Irish Family Planning Association Medical Director Dr Caitriona Henchion in welcoming the move said:

emergency contraception is currently available directly from pharmacies in 17 European Union countries. The emergency contraceptive pill is a very safe and responsible method of preventing pregnancy and offers women and girls a second chance to prevent pregnancy when a regular method has failed, no method was used or sex was forced.

The Irish College of General Practitioners in trying to protect its own business, the fee presumably at the forefront of their considerations, frowned on the development. One of its spokespersons claimed that making the pill available over the counter would only increase its demand. That might be true but so what? If women want to prevent themselves developing pregnancy, then the choice is ultimately theirs. Reasons should be found to facilitate a rapid circumvention rather than force the woman to face a decision to abort much further down the line.

The downside is cost. Although Boots claims its objective is to ‘provide responsible, accessible and affordable healthcare to its customers’, Dr Rebecca Oglesby has argued ‘I wonder why it has to be so expensive though, I’m sure many women will find that cost hard to bear.’ This means women in the poorer sections of society. But at least it will cut out the doctor’s fee which now no longer has to be added to the cost of the prescription.

Earlier in the year a women’s health lobby group, Choice Ireland, called for emergency contraception to be made available over-the-counter after one woman claimed a Kerry doctor had denied her a prescription for the morning after pill. She had to travel to Cork. Choice Ireland spokesperson Sinead Ahern objected that:

medical professionals should act professionally and not allow their religious or ethical beliefs to interfere with the job they are paid to do. It is totally unacceptable that a woman can be denied the pill on the basis of that GP’s personal views. It is incumbent on the HSE to ensure that patients are not placed in a position where the only doctor available to them is allowed an ‘opt-out’ of the treatment they require.

The doctor in question should have been struck off for dereliction of duty. What god he worships or football team he supports is of no consequence to the requirements of his profession. He should be compelled to deliver the service whatever about the patient not supporting his football team or sharing his religious opinion. If he wants to play Vatican roulette in his own bedroom it is a matter for himself. No one else should feel under any obligation to listen to him.

116 comments:

  1. 'The doctor in question should have been struck off for dereliction of duty. .... He should be compelled to deliver the service whatever about the patient not supporting his football team or sharing his religious opinion.'

    If a Catholic doctor distributes abortifacients, such as this, he will be automatically excommunicated.

    Do you think it is possible for a practicising Catholic to be a medical doctor?

    I am struck that you feel such an obligation to 'free-speech' but yet, seem to think that in a predominantly Catholic country a doctor must choose between his profession and his faith, and not be allowed to 'act' freely as his belief dictates.

    What use is freedom of speech if you cannot act as a free agent?

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  2. AM-

    If im honest i thought this service was available to all Irish women

    A woman like a man should be allowed their choice

    I dont know what it is like for a woman to avail of this service- and
    i know its not the same but no one bats a eye-lid when i buy condoms

    What is the point of supporting freedoms fight if the next cause is to oppress others-

    Telling any woman what to do with her body is oppression- surly she knows best- it is her body, sometimes the righteous forget this

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  3. If it cuts down on teenage preganancy and the abortion rate then very good.
    should make it free over the counter. Maybe save the government a zillion on flats for wee single parents too. Or then again, thats by design. Either way, free choice.

    If it's freely available over the counter no doctor need have a crisis of concience, only of profit lost.

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  4. This can only be a good thing. I get nauseated every time I'm back in Ireland and see all those girls who look 16 pushing prams with babies in them. What is the rush? Maybe this will help at least a little.

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  5. Yeah we men have it easy in this regard I for one who lived through the 60,s and can hardly remember them,lived by the old rule FFFF, and unprotected sex was the order of the day, as I said it is easy for us men after the glorious deed one just sticks the jolly todger away and on you go whistling merrily on your way,and maybe some wee girl heading for the L/pool boat a few months later, sex happens thats a fact and girls and women must have the right to be able to walk away merrily as well, good post Anthony.

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  6. John,

    ‘If a Catholic doctor distributes abortifacients, such as this, he will be automatically excommunicated.’

    And? Rules of the private club John. Can’t apply to society. Not the concern of the patient. What the doctor does in his private life is his own affair.

    ‘Do you think it is possible for a practicising Catholic to be a medical doctor?’

    Of course. So long as he practices his religion on himself and not on others. He is a doctor there to service public need not religious needs. An atheist can be a doctor but she can't refuse to treat people who believe in god and don't live their lives the way she feels they should.

    ‘I am struck that you feel such an obligation to 'free-speech' but yet, seem to think that in a predominantly Catholic country a doctor must choose between his profession and his faith, and not be allowed to 'act' freely as his belief dictates.’

    No one can act freely as their belief dictates. Racists can’t discriminate and abuse even though they may believe they can. Jehovah’s Witnesses should not be allowed to prevent their children having blood transfusions. If I am a Liverpool supporter and a doctor I cannot be allowed to discriminate against a Manchester United supporter on the grounds that he does not share my opinion or believe the way I believe he should believe. What has my soccer or religious opinion got to do with someone else getting a service? If I have a particular belief then I can practice it on myself not on someone else who does not share it.

    Free speech is not a license to discriminate. The law should protect some people from other people’s religious beliefs. Just as it should protect some people from other people’s racist beliefs.

    'What use is freedom of speech if you cannot act as a free agent?'

    It is the freedom to say what you think not act in accordance with what you think. You might think that a certain category of person should be hanged. Should you be allowed to hang them?

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  7. Mackers,
    I don't think religion is a big factor in this. Keeping women in their place is not just the remit of the Holy Men, more a feature of social control.
    Like I said in an earlier post, I have had to sit and listen to derogatory comments in relation to women all my life, and sadly a lot of them have come from other women.
    The morning after pill is one small and very positive step on an otherwise slippery slope for women.
    My ma God Bless her, always believed that things were moving in the right direction in relation to women and women's rights.
    She would talk about having to cover her head and part of her face in church and sit well away from the men.
    She once asked me, 'what did they (men) have to fear from us?'
    To which I replied, 'maybe they thought we might end up like them.'
    She married an out and out feminist and thankfully lived a very different kind of life to most women.

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  8. Larry,
    thats a bit rich, coming from someone who openingly brags about never paying for anything.
    If something should be compulsory it should be the snip, bet the women would be queued around the blocks with a sharpening stone and scissors.

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  9. fionnuala
    i was 'bragging' about the benefits of a welfare state in previous posts. This is just an extension of that benevolence to modern females who cannot be arsed to either take a pill once a day nor keep their knickers on after 8 pints in the local boozer at the weekend. no pun intended. Let em live their lives as they see fit. if a morning after pill keeps em happy who am i to complain?

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  10. marty
    i know im setting myself up for the 'highjump' here, but please, what is FFFF...?

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  11. Anthony sorry to deviate from an excellent post mo cara,but I couldnt help asking myself if there would ever be any point in a Man Utd supporter and neurosurgeon operating on a L/pool supporter.Nuala hon I would hasard a guess that men stayed clear of your mum and aunts because of their reputation of being a deadly shot with the auld empty gin bottles,I remember wee girls heading for the boat fucking heatbreaking thank f##k those days are almost gone .my own daughter was a teenage pregnancy. and my initial reaction was to reach for the shotgun and make a mess but these days I think I,d just shake his hand,my wee mate is my life now,better sex education and better life opportuniyies for our kids I think is needed,as you say Anthony a persons religious opinion should have no bearing on how they deal with other people after all its only their opinion mind you our kids these days wouldnt be to slow in telling them what to do with their outdated opinions.

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  12. A few facts on that abortifacient pill:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_RnBM5o00I

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  13. Anthony,

    You quoted me:
    ‘If a Catholic doctor distributes abortifacients, such as this, he will be automatically excommunicated.’

    And you replied:
    “And? Rules of the private club John. Can’t apply to society. Not the concern of the patient. What the doctor does in his private life is his own affair.”

    And? If he is excommunicated he will no longer be a Catholic. You go on to claim that a Catholic can be a doctor ‘so long as he practices his religion on himself and not on others.’

    But if he gives these chemical abortion pills out he is not a Catholic. So your honest answer must be that it is NOT possible in your view to be a practising Catholic and to be a medical doctor.

    This brave new world that you are advocating strikes me as very chilling. How long will it be before we are forced back into the catacombs.

    Oliver Cromwell must be chuckling to himself between the flames.

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  14. Before ya reach for your well worn sharpening stone and scissors Nuala hon,I,m only answering Larry,s request for futher information,FFFF is a mantra that we children of the 60,s lived by allegedly!and applied to both sexes, its simple Larry ..Find them...Feel them...F##k them...Forget them....!

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  15. John,

    sorry for stealing a march on you but I had a few moments time.


    'If he is excommunicated he will no longer be a Catholic.'

    And?

    If thrown out of the golf club he will no longer be in it either. He can hardly use that as an excuse. He is entitled to his religious opinion, not to force anybody else to abide by it.


    You go on to claim that a Catholic can be a doctor ‘so long as he practices his religion on himself and not on others.’

    'So your honest answer must be that it is NOT possible in your view to be a practising Catholic and to be a medical doctor.'

    No. There is nothing in his medical contract that I am aware of which says he can discriminate against people on the grounds of his religious opinion. He has as much right to deny services to someone not of his religion as he would have to deny someone on the basis of their membership of a different golf club.

    'This brave new world that you are advocating strikes me as very chilling. How long will it be before we are forced back into the catacombs.'

    We are getting out of them through forcing back those people who want to keep us in their religious catacombs. If they want to worship Thor or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, they are free to do so and not be denied medical services for doing so. But they cannot demand from the rest of us that we too have to abide by their religious opinion.

    'Oliver Cromwell must be chuckling to himself between the flames'

    As he passes a cold drink to whatever pope he is sitting beside

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  16. Anthony,

    ‘…There is nothing in his medical contract that I am aware of which says he can discriminate against people on the grounds of his religious opinion.’

    The Free State has consistently voted against abortion. Even in countries that allow it, there is a conscience clause for the doctor who wishes to hold fast to the ancient Hippocratic Oath;

    “I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.”

    ‘He has as much right to deny services ….’

    It somehow doesn’t seem right to refer to the destruction of human life as a ‘service.’

    ‘But they cannot demand from the rest of us that we too have to abide by their religious opinion.’

    I do not consider this a ‘religious opinion,’ on the contrary it is a deduction made from the natural moral law and until very recently universally accepted.

    ‘As he passes a cold drink to whatever pope he is sitting beside’

    I’m with Dante on that one, I would think there will be a number of them there, together with the abortionists.

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  17. Aye Anthony he may even ask if there is any possibility of a shag,I hear a few of them were women and some of the others were noted for the orgies they threw.

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  18. Larry, your views on women are about as predictable as your views on everything else gutterish, maybe that's why you had to travel half way around the world to get bride number two.

    Marty, that was my granny who hit the peeler with the bottle.
    My aunts were strong women who thought outside the box and if that kept men at bay so what.

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  19. marty
    absolutely loved your sentiment about your grandson. near had a wee tear there. What a man.

    FFFF youd have needed a fast horse to maintain a lead on the posse, ffs.

    A.M.
    Oliver Cromwell maybe had a point. RC priests dictating to women with 13 wee kids in a two up two down+ outside toilet and a drunk husband, not good. Maybe Cromwell could stick a pill in that glass of water!!

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  20. john just curious, are all your shirts BLUE by any chance?

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  21. Nuala hon your gran was very anti social coulda left just a wee drop in the bottle for medicinal purposes,but I think I like her anyway,

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  22. Larry,

    'john just curious, are all your shirts BLUE by any chance?'

    Is opposing the mass slaughter of innocents a prerogative of the Blueshirts?

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  23. Marty,
    my granny was amazing, we heard a story recently how she broke through a tight cordon in Belfast and shoved a letter into the palm of King George, who apparently held onto it very tightly, despite the advise from his security.
    The letter was in protest about my grandfather who was imprisoned on the Argenta.
    According to very old republican neighbour MR Mc Kee when they released the internees sometime later my granda was the first released.

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  24. One 'man' says jump and approx 1.166 billion people chorus how high, I despair sometimes.

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  25. BabyMed.com a wealth of information on this topic as well as everything else relating to pregnancy. The site has been my go to for both of pregnancies. I don't think things would have gone as smoothly without the information imparted by BabyMed.com. I realllllly encourage everyone check it out.

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  26. may i put on record
    i am 500% behind womens right to choose. Serious about that too.

    i'm in favour of political correctness, although sometimes it can be taken to the extreme.

    However i am an ardent fan of all the politically correct tv shows such as two and a half men, katherin lynch single ladies, the simpsons, beevis and butthead and little britain. I also like the odd comedy like the Oreachtas report.

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  27. John,

    I know this is beside the point, but taking the morning-after pill is not the same thing as an abortion. The morning-after pill does two things: it works to prevent an egg from being released from the ovary and it makes biochemical changes to the womb so that any fertilised blastocyst (ball of cells) cannot implant and become an embryo. Pregnancy is defined as beginning when the blastocyst implants into the womb, so the morning-after pill does not end a pregnancy - it just prevents one.

    If you think a fertilised egg is a human being, that's your business. Bluntly put, I think it has as much right to life as the contents of a teenager's wank sock.

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  28. Aye Larry go the whole hog and admit that like myself your a commited lesbian!

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  29. Here Nuala what was in thon wee note to Geordie boy, "let my man out ya poxie git or I,ll chuck my gin empties at yer gaff, or did it say if ya dont let my man out soon I,m going to sink yer boat and get me man back!its all believable yer ones were the reason the Romans didnt come here!

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  30. Larry,

    I deleted one of your posts by mistake. I misread your private message so can you repost? Sorry about that.

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  31. Anthony big Francis Mc Auley has asked me to pass on her best wishes to both yourself and Carrie good gog mo cara ya do half know some reprobates !

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  32. This as a good post Mackers - When I came to the states i realised that this pill was available over the counter - thanks to all the bloody pharmaceutical advertisements on TV !! My first thought was wow that's the way it should be everywhere.
    I don't agree with previous posters who compared the pill to an abortion - it is not quite the same thing! I support a woman's right to choose but most of all I support a female's right to contraception !!! Especially for young people this over the counter decision of 'Boots' is great.
    I remember about 12 years ago going to my doctor for a prescription for the "morning after pill" and when i went to the chemist on Andersonstown Rd they literally chased me out the door - it took phoning around about 4/5 chemists in West Belfast before I could go get the damn thing !! This is thinking is ridiculous - as is the refusal to legalise abortion in Ireland.

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  33. Mackers
    it was a repeat post. I had a freeze on my pc and thought the first hadn't gone through. When i logged in again it was already posted.
    thanx for that.

    Marty
    i'm a femenist for sure, committed and dedicated. I'm all for women, my wife is one.

    John
    just getting the impression you are pretty Conservative. No crime in that.

    I think women should choose for themselves and their own circumsatnces. All things in life get abused, but on balance, it's a good thing. I can't agree with John on Catholic morals being the yardstick of decision making in Irish life, in the case of a doctor for example. I'm hoping we are getting away from that carry on forever. Ireland was a horrible place under Vatican rule, we have a long way still to travel to get totally clear of it too.

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  34. fionnuala
    oh how deep you thrust the knife. I travelled so far because until i found my beloved, i did not encounter any lady with the qualities, personlaity and charm that were worthy of my own.

    We can't all be on family terms with royalty. Some of us had to venture further afield.

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  35. Alfie,

    To quote the Pontifical Academy for Life:

    'The morning-after pill is a hormone-based preparation (it can contain oestrogens, oestrogen/progestogens or only progestogens) which, within and no later than 72 hours after a presumably fertile act of sexual intercourse, has a predominantly "anti-implantation" function, i.e., it prevents a possible fertilized ovum (which is a human embryo), by now in the blastocyst stage of its development (fifth to sixth day after fertilization), from being implanted in the uterine wall by a process of altering the wall itself. The final result will thus be the expulsion and loss of this embryo. Only if this pill were to be taken several days before the moment of ovulation could it sometimes act to prevent the latter (in this case it would function as a typical "contraceptive").....'

    'It is clear, therefore, that the proven "anti-implantation" action of the morning-after pill is really nothing other than a chemically induced abortion.'

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  36. John McGirr-

    The hippocratic oath-

    If a doctor took up arms against the british army from 1916 on-
    and that doctor shot dead british army or police personnel would your opinion still be that this killer should no longer be a doctor

    I think he or she should still be a doctor-

    oliver cromwell was a bigot
    who wanted to use his religion to
    control people- i hope he is crying in pain when he looks through the flames.

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  37. michaelhenry,

    'If a doctor took up arms against the british army from 1916 on-
    and that doctor shot dead british army or police personnel would your opinion still be that this killer should no longer be a doctor'

    No, if he were an Irish patriot it would be an act of war.

    'I think he or she should still be a doctor-'

    So do I.

    'cromwell was a bigot
    who wanted to use his religion to
    control people- i hope he is crying in pain when he looks through the flames.'

    I am sure he is, Deo gratias!

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  38. Alfie wrote
    If you think a fertilised egg is a human being, that's your business. Bluntly put, I think it has as much right to life as the contents of a teenager's wank sock.

    ever time i read that my mrs asks what im laughing at. Can hardly breathe. Priceless.

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  39. Larry,
    you should be grateful it's the knife not the scissors.
    No Royal connections, I was merely trying to make the point that she was very determined and strong woman.
    Anyway you always give as good as you get.

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  40. Mickeyboy are you talking about our Ernie here mo cara. I dont think he finished medical school, should have though he could have practiced on himself,I watched Tom Barry on RTE tonight and your mate Mc Guinness said he thought Barry may have supported the "peace process"but he didnt know and if he didnt it wouldnt make any difference to him,this git likes to play it all ways the two faced rat that he is, at the very end of the show Tom Barry in his own words made it absolutely clear what his opinion of the british occupation of any part of Ireland was and it certainly was in psf,s favour

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  41. John,

    'It is clear, therefore, that the proven "anti-implantation" action of the morning-after pill is really nothing other than a chemically induced abortion.'

    Though I don't have a moral objection to early abortions, I don't think taking the morning-after pill counts as one. From what I've read, the function of the pill is to prevent pregnancy primarily by delaying or inhibiting ovulation. It is also possible that the pill may affect the movement of egg or sperm (making them less likely to meet), interfere with the fertilization process, or inhibit implantation of a fertilized egg in the endometrium (wall of the uterus). However, one review concluded that "the best available evidence is consistent with the hypothesis that Plan B's [the morning-after pill's] ability to prevent pregnancy can be fully accounted
    for by mechanisms that do not involve interference with post-fertilization events." To me, the morning-after pill does not constitute an abortion because the it merely inhibits a process which may not result in a viable pregnancy anyway - indeed, many, if not most, fertilized eggs naturally do not implant. Moreover, pregnancy is medically defined as beginning when the blastocyst implants in the endometrium, so preventing fertilization or possibly inhibiting implantation isn't an abortion. Using your logic, every frozen embryo in the world would be entitled to a womb to gestate in. A ball of cells can't feel pain and it can't think, so it's not a human being in my book.

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  42. John,

    "Oliver Cromwell must be chuckling to himself between the flames."

    Do you really think an omnibenevolent God could countenance even the most evil person suffering torture in hell for eternity? Wouldn't it be more just and merciful to obliterate wicked souls rather than subject them to unending, unimaginable pain? If I were in heaven, I would be deeply uncomfortable knowing that elsewhere people - however evil - were suffering. Then again, I don't think you expect I'll be there!

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  43. Marty,
    'Tom Barry in his own words made it absolutely clear what his opinion of the british occupation of any part of Ireland was and it certainly WAS in psf,s favour'

    I hope that was a wee smelling mistake Marty mo chara!!!

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  44. OOOPS Martydown under that was todays deliberate mistake mo cara just testing lol sorry mo cara I thought my neck was sore today reckon Tom Barry was giving me jip,which I deserved, sorry once again should have read WAS,NT

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  45. Alfie,

    The link I posted earlier shows clearly that it is an abortifacient. It may be that it can act other than that on some occasions but if it is used 'after the event' it will always have a potential abortifacient effect.

    Even if it never had that, I would oppose it but for different reasons.

    ‘Using your logic, every frozen embryo in the world would be entitled to a womb to gestate in’.
    In a normal society this would never arise as IVF would be criminalised.

    ‘A ball of cells can't feel pain and it can't think, so it's not a human being in my book.’

    So, when do you consider that it becomes a human being?

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  46. Alfie,

    ‘Do you really think an omnibenevolent God could countenance even the most evil person suffering torture in hell for eternity?’

    Yes. If those priests who abused children believed in it too, would they have acted the way they did? The greatest pain of hell is the pain of having lost God. It is His mercy that has attached terrible punishments to it so as to make us not want to go there.

    ‘Wouldn't it be more just and merciful to obliterate wicked souls rather than subject them to unending, unimaginable pain?

    I accept it how it is, not how I might have made it, which could have ended up in no one getting to heaven, because they didn’t fear hell.’

    ‘If I were in heaven, I would be deeply uncomfortable knowing that elsewhere people - however evil - were suffering.’

    But if you knew that they had chosen to be there, that they refused to be with God, then, maybe, you would see His justice. Would you want to share a cloud with a paedophile priest?

    ‘Then again, I don't think you expect I'll be there!’

    I hardly think I will be there myself, unless I think about hell a little more and thereby live a better life. The best way to get to heaven is to think about hell and run in the opposite direction.

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  47. I knew Marty! If Barry had've said anything remotely in line with the shinners I'd be off with Tain Bo to the Buddhist monastery.
    Wouldn't mind seeing that. I'll have a look online, used to head down to the Kilmichael commemoration, McGuinness was talking shite at it this year I belief

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  48. Martydownunder yeah he does spread a load of manure every time he opens his mouth nearly as bad as the bearded one. my f##kin neighbour knocked on my door at 3 am this morning can you believe it 3am this morning! luckily for him I was up playing my drums.....this year we will experience 4 unusual dates 1/1/11...11/1/11...1/11/11..11/11/11...now figure this out...take the last 2 digits of the year you were born plus the age you will be this year and it will equal to 111..try it.....what did Roy Walker say when caught riding his sister?...its good but its not right!

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  49. John McGirr-

    I know it was war but the bible tells us to turn the other cheek

    You support killing but are opposed
    to young women asking for the morning after pill because of your
    religion and its beliefs

    Is a young women who takes the pill
    or gets an abortion at war with some in society- her family or culture- do we all not have to fight poverty

    who can define the way to live or the way to kill or die,

    Marty-

    thought you were back on message-
    nice there for a while.

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  50. LOL Mickeyboy not yet mo cara but open to bribes.

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  51. Carried over from Papal Bull

    Stefan,

    ‘Aristotle is said to be the father of natural law but this is due to the attention given to his works by Thomas Aquinas. Obviously this being the first documented human interpretations of a much older concept.’

    And still tells us nothing about what natural law is.

    ‘Serious ID proponents would include anyone using scientific means to
    disprove blind random mutation to account for the complexity in
    nature. You seem to be trying to meld the two concepts Anthony but in
    reality Creationism is a religious belief and scientific evidence to
    disprove Darwin isn't...it's plain science.’

    Many creationists would dispute this and for that reason refer to creationist science. There are many links between the ID movement and Creationists. The concepts of ID all existed in the work of the creationists. The language of the ID luminaries is about a creator. They might tactically shun the old bible bashing but they are creationists nonetheless. Their ‘science’ is inextricably linked to a creator. The vast bulk of scientific opinion is that ID is not science. When did ID become plain science? It did not start out as a body of scientific thought but a cultural phenomenon which aimed to restore the creator to its rightful place. A lawyer rather than a scientist is credited as being the founder and he, with some courage it must be said, had his interest in the concept of ID kick started by a marriage breakdown, which prompted him to look to religion. Ten years after it started they were still arguing for the need to make it scientific. If it was science we would imagine it had started out as science.

    ‘A religious believer armed with evolutionary beliefs possesses nothing
    more than an acid which "eats through just about every traditional
    concept," to quote philosopher Daniel Dennett.’

    But Dennett is an atheist who perhaps hopes rather than believes that. Look at just how many believers retain their faith and have not been subjected to the acid effect.

    To coin another phrase from William Provine "Evolution is the greatest engine of Atheism ever invented,"

    Against which I would argue religion is the greatest engine of Atheism ever invented.
    Quote mining is hardly going to resolve this in your favour Stefan.

    ‘Theistic Evolution is simply an attempt to promote Darwin to the
    religious faithful.’

    Or simply an attempt to show god behind evolution as many Christians believe.

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  52. Mick Hall laments: 'One 'man' says jump and approx 1.166 billion people chorus how high, I despair sometimes.' I despair a lot, but I must say as a cradle if lapsed Catholic (like many of us here, who so may even be still counted in the Vatican's archives among the 1.166 approx), that the days of a mass chorus of the faithful responding to Il Papa are long gone.

    The papist stereotype of 'every sperm is sacred' doubtless allowed most of us to be conceived and brought to term, wanted or not, via those who had the Holy Father's blessing on their matrimony above their presumably marital beds. But most of us lack the piety of our parents or grandparents: fewer sing a chorus.

    The rates of contraception and abortion among Catholics at least in the "advanced" world equate with the rest of the teeming coupling population. Which needs a decrease anyhow, to say the obvious. I do wish more people took advantage of contraception...

    Watching '16 & Pregnant' or 'Teen Mom' on tv, I muse aloud we should put sterile agents in the water and make the antidote contingent on parenting classes and the like, but call me an idealistic fascist;) Ireland's shut the horrid workhouses and closed the awful laundries that once mocked its pretenses to purity. But in the rush to catch up with the rest of the 'advanced' world, what now?

    Ireland's now at the opposite swing of the permissive pendulum across this 'advanced' world, where few listen to any pope when they can turn on MTV. It's not 1979 and mass adoration for the Vicar of Christ across (most of) the island. Is the current crop of teeming babies popping out of ever-younger teens any social or moral progress? I almost agree when I see so many teens celebrating or sentenced to motherhood and so many teens escaping or fumbling fatherhood with the popes who castigate at the excesses brought on by the 60s even as I feel lucky to have been a child, born at the start of that decade and not an earlier one, given the realities of Irish oppression by prelate and clergy. I am old enough to remember how it was, but as you we have lived into a time when it is not. Still, can people ever be responsible? No birth control is 100%, and passion rules over common sense, so such pills and abortifacients may always lack in foolproof solutions.

    However, when birth control is easily purchased but couples can't be arsed to use it, what do we do?

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  53. ‘You … are opposed to young women asking for the morning after pill because of your religion and its beliefs’

    No. I oppose abortion on philosophical grounds.

    It is wrong to kill the innocent.

    It is not always wrong to kill in war.

    It is not wrong to execute a criminal who has committed a grave crime.

    This is not religion but rather ethics.

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  54. john i read the link you posted.
    recommend everyone read it, then never return to it.

    ReplyDelete
  55. John,

    With regard to the morning-after pill, I cited the opinion of the FDA and contraception experts; you cited a Youtube video and the Pontifical Academy for Life. I have seen no evidence for the latter's contention that the pill would need to be taken several days before ovulation in order to prevent it from occurring. Indeed, if the primary function of the pill was to prevent implantation, which occurs about 7 days after fertilisation, why would the pill's effectiveness be highest when taken within 12 hours of intercourse but decline thereafter? Nevertheless, I accept the scientific consensus that it is possible that the morning-after pill inhibits implantation; however, for reasons previously outlined, I don't think this counts as abortion.

    "In a normal society this would never arise as IVF would be criminalised."

    In such a society, my aunt would not have been able to have her three lovely daughters. I helped look after them when they were toddlers and I would not swap them for all the pope's psuedo-righteous dogma. Perhaps millions of other children would not have been born to loving parents if it were not for IVF. If this means losing embryos in the implantation process, which happens naturally very often as well, or storing embryos in fridges, so be it.

    "So, when do you consider that it becomes a human being?"

    I think once a foetus begins to feel pain and think, it then must be accorded some human rights. But this ability cannot exist until 24 weeks into the pregnancy at the very earliest. In fact, some scientists argue that the foetus is not conscious until after birth. I understand that the majority of abortions in the UK are carried out before 13 weeks and none after 24 weeks, so they don't present a huge ethical problem for me.

    PS. I'd be interested in reading the views of others here on the issue of abortion.

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  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Alfie,

    ‘With regard to the morning-after pill, I cited the opinion of the FDA and contraception experts; you cited a Youtube video and the Pontifical Academy for Life.’

    Did you watch the ‘Youtube video? If you did you would know that it is merely a reading of the full document prepared by the Pontifical Academy for Life. So I cited only one source, but which is made up of at least 70 of the most distinguished scientists in the world.

    As you didn’t attribute your sources, I am not sure who they were. All I could see was that you said, ‘one review concluded’.

    ‘Nevertheless, I accept the scientific consensus that it is possible that the morning-after pill inhibits implantation; however, for reasons previously outlined, I don't think this counts as abortion.’

    And again I can only say in the words of the PAFL;

    “It is clear, therefore, that the proven "anti-implantation" action of the morning-after pill is really nothing other than a chemically induced abortion. It is neither intellectually consistent nor scientifically justifiable to say that we are not dealing with the same thing.”

    I have a brother who has had twins by IVF too. Much as I know how you feel I still do not agree that he should have done that. There are many childless couples who go through life unfulfilled in that regard, no one has a right to a child, and there will always be cases where parents cannot have them.

    Having said that, I do not blame your aunt or my brother, or the children but I frimly believe society has rushed ahead without these things being properly thought through.

    My opposition to this is not based on Catholic dogma, although I can see why you think it is, given that I quoted the Pontifical Academy for Life. I am opposed to it on rational, philosophical grounds which are recognized by the Catholic Church but not dependant on it.

    Let me grant, for the sake of argument, that the foetus, is ‘probably’ not a human person. You still could not ethically abort them as do so would be equivalent to burying someone who is ‘probably’ dead. The only safe course in such matters is to err on the side of caution. That is to treat the embryo as a living human being. We cannot run the risk of killing a human being on a ‘probable’ opinion.

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  58. John,

    "If those priests who abused children believed in it too, would they have acted the way they did?"

    But I'd imagine that many abusive priests did believe in hell. Until quite recently, so did the vast majority of people in the Western world, but that didn't stop them from committing all sorts of crimes. You could also argue that the possibility Catholicism allows for the absolution of sins through confession actually encourages people to believe that they can sin now and repent later.

    "The greatest pain of hell is the pain of having lost God."

    If that is the case, then no one should fear hell - how could people feel pain in losing someone they do not really know in the first place?

    "It is His mercy that has attached terrible punishments to it so as to make us not want to go there."

    Your reasoning there is a bit circular: God attaches terrible punishments to a place in order to make us not want to go to a place with terrible punishments. But if he really wanted to ensure that no one goes to hell, why doesn't he provide some concrete evidence of his or hell's existence? And how can causing people to suffer ever be merciful?

    "I accept it how it is, not how I might have made it, which could have ended up in no one getting to heaven, because they didn’t fear hell."

    But many people do fear the prospect of being obliterated in death. I know I do. If I were given the choice between being obliterated or spending eternity in paradise with my family and friends in exchange for leading a good life on Earth for a relatively short period, I know what my answer would be. It is true that obliteration would not be feared as much as eternal, unimaginable pain; however, even if no one made it to heaven as a result, I think that would be a preferable outcome to perhaps the majority of human beings suffering for eternity.

    "But if you knew that they had chosen to be there, that they refused to be with God, then, maybe, you would see His justice."

    I don't believe anyone would directly choose unending suffering. You might say that people make that choice by the way in which they live their lives; however, people are never directly informed by God that they are being put to the test. Anway, that's beside the point, which is that I firmly believe there is no justice in eternal torture.

    "Would you want to share a cloud with a paedophile priest?"

    Of course not, but I wouldn't want him to be tortured either. In my life, I've found the mental anguish of depression and OCD almost intolerable, so if the pain of hell is unfathomably worse than that, then I wouldn't want anyone - no matter what they had done - to endure it forever. Besides, according to Catholic teaching, it is possible for abusive priests to get to heaven if they sincerely repent. You might end up sharing a cloud with one of them yourself!

    "I hardly think I will be there myself"

    If God exists and strict Catholics like you aren't good enough for him, then the rest of us are fucked! Seriously though, I have done some bad things in my life, things I am ashamed of, but if I find myself before God after I die, I will be asking him a few questions before he sends me to the flames.

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  59. Dear God:

    For 2011, all I ask for is a big fat bank account and a slim body.
    Please do not mix up the two like you did last year.

    Amen

    ReplyDelete
  60. Carried over from Papal Bull

    ‘it is a mistake to claim Intelligent Design a theological.’

    The ID Movement’s leading light William Dembski defined ID as ‘the Logos theology of John’s gospel restated in the idiom of information theory.’ Is he mistaken?

    ‘If science points towards an intelligent agency behind nature then that’s a scientific concept.’

    It is as scientific as astrology I suppose.

    Does science point there or do a few religious scientists point there and the vast bulk of science points elsewhere?

    Intelligent design (the movement as distinct from the idea which must always have been around I suppose) grew out of religious conviction, not the other way around. But Intelligent Design as a term with very specific meaning has been around how long? Since the 1990s. And as a term it is specifically associated with the Right Wing Religious movement in the US not the scientific community.

    This is what sits at the heart of the current discussion. And the array of evidence that I have seen over the years leads me to conclude it is theology. For a while I allowed for the possibility that it was at least an honest attempt to explain the world that would escape from the hidebound nonsense of creationism. Now I see it as very fraudulent. In this I would find support in court judgements that considered expert testimony from within the scientific community. I am willing to be persuaded to the contrary. Show us the voluminous research programmes and peer reviewed articles in scientific journals where the case has been made that intelligent agency is behind nature and allow us to consider it. The evidence against is not minor but overwhelming.

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  61. Carried over from Papal Bull

    Alfie,

    ‘According to Podles, priests and male religious account for 3.2% of all the abuse in Ireland, but only make up 0.15% of the general population ... Podles also claims that Catholic clergy in Ireland are 5 times more likely to abuse than other men.’

    Certainly casts it in a different light. Something to think about.

    Remarkable exchange between Michael Ruse and Daniel Dennett
    2006 Leaked email

    “I think that you (Daniel Dennett) and Richard (Dawkins) are absolute
    disasters in the fight against intelligent design - we are losing this battle, not the least of which is the two new supreme court justices who are certainly going to vote to let it into classrooms - what we need is not knee-jerk atheism but serious grappling with the issues - neither of you are willing to study Christianity seriously and to engage with the ideas - it is just plain silly and grotesquely immoral to claim that Christianity is simply a force for evil, as Richard claims - more than this, we are in a fight, and we need to make allies in the fight, not simply alienate everyone of good will.”

    What is remarkable about it? Sounds more ike a spat between buddies. For a start both of them are hugely credited with undermining belief in religion and are therefore absolutely valuable to that fight. Nor is it knee jerk atheism but well thought out atheism. I think Dawkins goes over the top at times but Ruse blows it out of proportion.

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  62. Carried over from Papal Bull

    Stefan,

    ‘Quite surprisingly in contradiction of what they fought for in the trial she (Eugenie Scott) spearheaded the effort to inject religion into public school science classes in order to promote evolution.’

    I read the piece you provided and saw no indication whatsoever that Scott ‘spearheaded the effort to inject religion into public school science classes in order to promote evolution.’ It seemed so far removed from what she said in the article that the article in question must be the wrong one if there is any truth to the allegation of her ‘spearheading.’

    ‘According to John G.West … On a taxpayer-funded website that the NCSE helped design, teachers and students are directed to a list of statements by religious groups endorsing evolution, and Eugenie Scott, the group’s executive director, encourages biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution. Scott even suggests that students be assigned to interview local ministers about their views on evolution—but not if the community is “conservative Christian,” because then the lesson that “Evolution is OK!” may not come through.’

    According to the article provided Scott reported on what a teacher had told her about their own experiences of having asked students to read statements by religious leaders. This is not compatible with West claiming that Scott ‘encourages biology teachers to spend class time having students read statements by religious leaders supporting evolution.’

    West, who was one of the co directors of the Centre for the Renewal of Science and Culture, a right wing political think tank launched by the religious conservative Discovery Institute, seems to have misrepresented the data. This is par for the course with the ID movement. But you don’t need me to tell you that. They were caught doing it at Dover and were censured by the judge for lying.

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  63. Carried over from Papal Bull

    Stefan,

    West continues ‘Scott even suggests that students be assigned to interview local ministers about their views on evolution—but not if the community is “conservative Christian,” because then the lesson that “Evolution is OK!” may not come through.’

    But in the article provided by you what we have Scott saying is ‘A teacher in Minnesota told me that he had good luck sending his students out at the beginning of the semester to interview their pastors and priests about evolution.’

    She then goes on to argue ‘the survey-of-ministers approach may not work if the community is religiously homogeneous, especially if that homogeneity is conservative Christian, but it is something that some teachers might consider as a way of getting students' fingers out of their ears.’

    West is on slightly stronger ground here but not much. This is because Scott seemed not to be suggesting it but comments that ‘some’ teachers might consider it, as they seem to have. The purpose was not to introduce religion into the classroom but to keep it out by showing that a wide swathe of religious opinion does no dispute evolution.

    But ultimately the most telling line of the article was

    ‘Explain that some people think that change through time is caused directly or indirectly by a supernatural being, including God, the Hero Twins (Navajo), or some other supernatural power. At this point you then state because this is a science class, and science is limited to explaining through natural forces, we cannot discuss supernatural causation here.’

    If on the other hand West is right, Scott has made her claims elsewhere but not in this article.

    The Scott article is one I would recommend highly to anyone interested in the topic.

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  64. Carried over from Hate TV

    John,

    ‘There is ample justification in light of the Crusades, and ‘Just War’ teachings to give the people of Ireland and elsewhere the right to freedom.’

    I doubt very much if the war in the North would meet the just war criteria. It is very stringent.

    ‘There is a collective obligation on mankind to procreate but not
    individually.’

    What sort of collective obligation? There is a collective function.

    ‘Everyone has the right to marry, but not the duty.’

    Everybody has the right to consensual sex inside or outside the institution of marriage. People can abstain but then Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers!! They can abstain as a matter of human choice but the choice is theirs and not any cleric.

    “I think celibacy is more unnatural than homosexuality. But for those
    who choose that for themselves I am not going to say it is immoral.”

    Celibacy is giving up a good thing for the sake of something higher.

    Celibacy is giving up a good thing because many centuries ago the church decided it was the best way to keep hold f its property. No kids to pass on property to it remained within the church.

    ‘It is not against the good of society, unless it became contagious.’

    So the priests want a free ride (not a pun) and avoid the collective obligation you refer to.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Carried over from Hate TV

    John,

    ‘The sole purpose of the sexual function is the procreation of
    children and the preservation of the race … It is only ‘one-dimensional’ if not taken with what I wrote in the next paragraph abut the use of the function being accompanied by pleasure, and its reasons “which is to ensure that the first aim is accomplished and to form a marital bond between a man and a woman which will keep them together in a stable family relationship."

    So an infertile man or woman aware of their infertility and inability to procreate should not have sex?

    ‘I would maintain it is an ethical examination of these issues, in conformity with, but not reliant upon any religious law.’

    Who ethically endorses it other than religious types? It is deeply unethical to seek to impose this opinion on others.

    ‘the, comparatively recent, rejection of natural law.’

    What is natural law?

    ‘Because as marriage is designed for those who are in a position to have
    and rear children it would go against nature to risk having a child but
    not be in a position to care for it.’

    Is it immoral for an infertile couple to marry? Plenty of unmarried couples care for their children just as well as married couples.

    ‘As rational beings we should be guided by reason rather than instinct.’

    Hence our reason for rejecting the faith created gods.

    ‘There are religious laws which address the same issues, but I am
    looking at the question from a standpoint of ethics as opposed to
    religion.’

    I don’t believe you!!! And I know you are capable of laughing this of in the same spirit as it was said.

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  66. Carried over from Hate TV

    Saint?MaryHedgehog

    ‘That was brilliantly written.’

    Don’t know about that but thanks for the compliment.

    ‘God pimps’ is a great way to describe them. It is prostitution.

    Your description of spiritual whoring was brilliant. Your friend was right and the fact is she was in a more honourable profession than them.

    My kids are protected from religion. I inoculated them against the virus a long time ago.

    John,

    ‘This is not the first time that I have been referred to as a 'perv' and a 'sicko' by Larry Hughes.’

    It is accepted throughout that these descriptions are without merit or substance.

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  67. Anthony,

    ‘I doubt very much if the war in the North would meet the just war criteria. It is very stringent.’

    I believe it would insofar as the legitimacy of it was not undermined by the recognition of Leinster House and Stormont.

    ‘Celibacy is giving up a good thing because many centuries ago the church decided it was the best way to keep hold f its property. No kids to pass on property to it remained within the church.’

    Celibacy has been with the Church from the time of the Apostles. Throughout the first millennium almost all clerics were monks, who by their nature followed the counsels of Christ and were celibate.

    ‘So an infertile man or woman aware of their infertility and inability to procreate should not have sex?’

    There is no reason to say this if they are not frustrating the natural moral law and are open to life.

    ‘What is natural law?’

    It is the naturally knowable moral law. Its most basic principle is ‘do good and avoid evil’. There are other general principles based in that first principle, such as ‘do not kill’, ‘love God,’ ‘care for your offspring’ etc. There are then remote conclusions which follow from these and then particular cases in which these are applied.

    ‘Is it immoral for an infertile couple to marry?’

    No.

    ‘Hence our reason for rejecting the faith created gods.’

    On the contrary, God is established by reason; if not how could a person have faith in God, on the word of God if he didn’t know that God existed.

    There are many ways to show the existence of God, eg;

    “If contingent things exist, they demand as their ultimate explanation (that is as their sufficient reason for existing) the existence of a Being which is necessary and non-contingent, a First Being which does not depend on causes.

    Now it is undeniable that contingent things exist.

    Therefore, there exists a Being which is necessary and non-contingent, a First Being which does not depend on causes. This Being we call God.

    Therefore God exists.”
    (Paul Glenn’s Theodicy).

    Other people will look at the world, in its beauty and order; they will see a sunset, a rose or the birth of a baby and arrive at the same conclusion but in a simpler way. They see the work of art and realise that there must be an ‘artist’, the watch and realise there must be a ‘watchmaker.’

    “There are religious laws which address the same issues, but I am looking at the question from a standpoint of ethics as opposed to religion.”

    ‘I don’t believe you!!!’

    I am not saying there isn’t a connection. I believe in only one truth, so if something is ethical it must be in keeping with a religion revealed by God.

    But there would be no point in my arguing on the basis of what the Catholic Church teaches unless you accept that Church as an authority. Hence everything I have argued on here has been done on the basis of philosophy rather than theology.

    All of these things have been discussed in ethics from Aristotle onwards and there is a whole tradition of conclusions being reached and truth arrived at in the ensuing centuries, spanning pagan, Jewish, Moslem and Christian cultures and even adhered to by a sprinkling of atheists. It is that perennial philosophy, as expounded by Thomas Aquinas that gives answers to these questions. Everything within that philosophical tradition is compatible with the Catholic Church, but not dependant on it.

    The fact that the Catholic Church is the only major institution in line with reason on these questions is a strong argument as to the legitimacy of that Church as a place to find truth, as it continues to uphold the moral truths which formed our civilization. But that is encroaching on the realm of religion.

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  68. John,

    "Did you watch the ‘Youtube video? If you did you would know that it is merely a reading of the full document prepared by the Pontifical Academy for Life. So I cited only one source, but which is made up of at least 70 of the most distinguished scientists in the world."

    Mea culpa. I switched on the video, heard a robotic voice mention the Pontifical Academy for Life and switched it off again. I presumed that the video contained analyis based in part on the PAFL statement, but not that it is was just a reading of the statement itself. I should have paid more attention.

    "As you didn’t attribute your sources, I am not sure who they were. All I could see was that you said, ‘one review concluded’."

    Again, I'm at fault; I should have listed my sources before arrogantly implying that mine were better than yours. My sources are the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA); David Archer, director of the Contraceptive Research and Development Program of Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk; James Trussell, director of the Office of Population Research at Princeton University; and K. Gemzell-Danielsson and L. Marions, of the Karolinska Hospital/Institute in Stockholm. Gemzell-Danielsson and Marions published a review of the scientific literature on emergency contraception in which they conclude that morning-after pills, "when used in single low doses for emergency contraception,
    involve either blockade or delay of ovulation, due to either prevention or delay of the LH surge, rather
    than to inhibition of implantation
    " (my emphasis). Indeed, from what I have read, the alleged "anti-implantation" action of the morning-after pill is far from proven. It is true that regular use of contraceptive pills has been shown to change the lining of the uterus, making it less likely that implantation of any fertilized egg would occur; but there is no direct evidence that a one-time dose of the contraceptive pill - which is essentially what the morning-after pill is - would change the uterine lining as well. In fact, in their review, Gemzell-Danielsson and Marions claim that a one-time treatment with morning-after pill has no effect on the uterine lining. I should also say that there is evidence that breastfeeding causes changes in the uterine lining as well as inhibiting ovulation and thus makes it less likely that a woman who is breastfeeding a child will get pregnant in the first six months after she gives birth. No one would seriously argue that a breastfeeding mother is potentially inducing abortions though.

    "There are many childless couples who go through life unfulfilled in that regard, no one has a right to a child, and there will always be cases where parents cannot have them."

    Though I have no objection to infertile couples having IVF to conceive children, I often wonder whether society would be better served if such couples adopted some of the many unwanted, unloved children who are already here.

    "My opposition to this is not based on Catholic dogma"

    I accept that and I apologise for suggesting that it was. I think your opposition is based on the belief that fertilised eggs are human beings, but that is a belief I do not share.

    "We cannot run the risk of killing a human being on a ‘probable’ opinion."

    We make such judgments based on probabilities all the time; for example, ventilators and other life support are withdrawn from people who show no brain activity. I think we are as certain that a foetus does not have the capacity to feel or think before 24 weeks as we are that cattle and sheep are incapable of human thoughts and feelings. In both cases, the biological structures that scientists believe are necessary for that level of mental activity are absent; however, we cannot prove that such activity doesn't occur. So should you err on the side of caution and forgo your Sunday roast?

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  69. i gave my view that too often people who continually read and refer to sexual deviance, homosexuality and pedophilia are found to be that way. Boy scout leaders and Priests found their outlet in their 'professions'. Sickos will read about child abuse and pretend they are researching..as some people have done when caught looking at child porn online.
    I said Johns attitude of absolute refusal to accept Vatican or RC church complicity in child rape and abuse at the very least tacitly assists the continuation of it. That stance is dangerous for kids.
    If he feels that identifies him personally and beyond doubt as a perv and sicko 'himself' then that's his conclusion. 'If the hat fits'.

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  70. Homosexuals don't go around [ to my knowledge ] raping young boys. Or prortraying it as mutual male attraction.

    Pervert priests were buggering helpless trapped wee boys and the Catholic Church told bishops to protect their rapist priests from the civil authorities world wide AND retain them in the priesthood. Not only that, send them on a world tour to multi-culture rape.

    That's all FACT John. Your closed eyes and ears are disgraceful.

    Whether you are a closet perv or not only you know, but you're no friend to the abused or the homosexual 'community' from what i'm reading.

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  71. Alfie
    prhaps ultimately, people undergoing IVF do so because they want 'their own' child.

    If charities did more to ensure monies collected reached their target, then maybe those 'unwanted' children you talk of may recieve more assistance. Just a thought.

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  72. Larry,

    there is nothing whatsoever to differentiate between John McGirr and everybody else on this blog in terms of being 'closet pervs.' He makes his arguments like the rest of us. There is no good taste involved in making innuendo because his views are not to our liking. I think he holds a lot of wack views but he thinks that of me. The ball should be played not the man.

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  73. ‘I said Johns attitude of absolute refusal to accept Vatican or RC church complicity in child rape and abuse at the very least tacitly assists the continuation of it. That stance is dangerous for kids.’

    I seriously question that you have any interest whatsoever in the children but rather a pathological hatred of the Catholic Church. You bury your head in the sand while others try to face up to the issues and then fling insults from the sidelines. I have told you what I think is the cause of it, what the evidence says. If I am wrong and you have any insight into it, you are keeping them close to your chest.

    The fact that it is mostly homosexuals within the Church who have abused is not to say that most homosexuals abuse. If I say that most terrorists are Moslems, that does not mean that I am saying most Moslems are terrorists. That is basic logic.

    I have named two serious works which are written by Catholics who are attempting to salvage what they can of what has happened because they know that it has to be faced up to.

    For your information both of these are far more critical of many within the Catholic Church than you are. Alfie has mentioned Leon Podle’s book, which I have also said, I agree with what I know of it so far. All of these sources, and many others state exactly what I am saying.

    It’s a no-win situation for me, I have to condemn the Pope on no evidence, deny in the face of overwhelming evidence that the abuse is overwhelmingly homosexual, because it offends your buddies. These things I am not prepared to do.

    You have offered NOTHING to this debate. What was your last input? Something like, ‘read the link, don’t go back,’ or something similarly barely literate. I haven’t even a clue what it meant and assumed you had been drinking again.

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  74. In case it wasn't obvious, my last post was addressed soley to Larry Hughes.

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anthony, if - "Free speech is not a license to discriminate. The law should protect some people from other people’s religious beliefs. Just as it should protect some people from other people’s racist beliefs" then is this an inconsistancy on your part or a double standard? - "It was great to see Nick Griffin, leader of the British National Party, appear on Question Time a few evenings back", taken from Nick the Prick thread.

    The fact "Many creationists would dispute this (Creationism is a religious belief and scientific evidence to disprove Darwin isn't) and for that reason refer to creationist science." is neither here nor there for the purposes of my argument just the same as "many Christians" may beleive that God is behind (Darwinian) Evolution is in my opinion completely born of their own ignorance of either/or subject.The fact that many respected Protestant architects of Theistic Evolution have ended up losing faith (becoming freethinkers etc) stands testiment to the 'acid' that Darwins theory is, furthermore adding substance to the claim of the incompatibility between Darwin and Theism.

    Michaelhenry, your statement "Telling any woman what to do with her body is oppression" misses the point that it's not her body but that of another human, sometimes the Righteous need to remind the secular of this fact.

    Alfie, I'm surprised at this statement "A ball of cells can't feel pain and it can't think, so it's not a human being in my book." considering all the frontloaded infomation contained therein as DNA you of all people with your understanding of the Genome should be in awe at this technical acheivement so for you to reach the conclusion "I don't have a moral objection to early abortions" demonstrates the the scientific atheist's assumed ownership of processes they barely understand let alone can replicate thus nullifying the claim of their control over it.

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  76. The Morning After

    Stefan,

    ‘Anthony, if - "Free speech is not a license to discriminate. The law
    should protect some people from other people’s religious beliefs. Just as it should protect some people from other people’s racist beliefs" then is this an inconsistency on your part or a double standard? - "It
    was great to see Nick Griffin, leader of the British National Party, appear on Question Time a few evenings back", taken from Nick the Prick thread.’

    Neither inconsistent nor double standards.

    Nick Griffen should be allowed to express his view, as abhorrent as it is. Joe Ratzinger should be allowed to express his view, as abhorrent as it is. People must be protected from both sets of beliefs. That doesn’t mean they should be protected from hearing them. They should be protected from the beliefs in practice. No one should be discriminated against because they are black, as Nick would like. No one should be discriminated against because they are gay, as Joe would like. Had I afforded a liberty to Nick that I had not to Joe I would indeed be guilty as charged. But no where is this to be seen. Now if you can show me an inconsistency in that please do. If not apologise immediately you disreputable scoundrel!!!!

    Seriously though, where we are inconsistent or employing double standards should be drawn out. And there are plenty of inconsistencies on this blog. This just does not happen to be one of them. If you can improve on your initial challenge feel free.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Stefan,


    ‘The fact "Many creationists would dispute this (Creationism is a
    religious belief and scientific evidence to disprove Darwin isn't) and for that reason refer to creationist science." is neither here nor there for the purposes of my argument.’

    Perhaps were it not for the fact that they have as much right to claim their stuff is science as ID has to claim its is science.

    ‘just the same as "many Christians" may believe that God is behind (Darwinian) Evolution is in my opinion completely born of their own ignorance of either/or
    subject.’

    Seems to me they are very intelligent people, not given to ignorance. Amongst them there are brilliant theologians and brilliant Darwinists.

    That they might think you are ignorant of either subject is neither here nor there either. If everybody runs around accusing everybody else of sheer ignorance it starts to sound like snobbery. We are all ignorant of many things, but these people are hardly ignorant of god and Darwinism.

    ‘The fact that many respected Protestant architects of Theistic
    Evolution have ended up losing faith (becoming freethinkers etc) stands testament to the 'acid' that Darwin's theory is, furthermore adding substance to the claim of the incompatibility between Darwin and Theism.’

    The fact that many do not lose faith is evidence of the compatibility between Darwin and Theism.

    Stefan,

    On another issue. Must a raped woman be forced to carry and give birth to the child of the rapist?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Stefan-

    For anyone to force or try to tell
    any person what to do with there own body and its functions is
    oppression

    AM-

    Must a raped women be forced to carry and give birth to the child of the rapist-

    I remember reading the two different decision's which two young girls made on this subject-
    both were happy with there own choice-but were unhappy that the choice was forced on them
    this most be one of the most difficult decisions in life- puts
    politics into perspective

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  79. i was told there's a longwinded post here addressed soley to me. Ive searched about but can see no 'evidence' of it. Must be debunked then eh?

    Agree with the morning after pill and with abortion for rape abuse victims. But not for lazy women who get them regularly, and that happens before im slated.

    I dont hate the RC church, just pitty anyone who will defend the indefensible.

    Doesnt matter about the 'double standards', as long as like michaelhenry points out, all views are aired.

    ReplyDelete
  80. I will rise to your challenge Anthony being as it was put in such eloquent way.
    Firstly I would like to see your evidence for His Holiness discriminating against non-hetro orientated people.
    Maybe you are employing a method highlighted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith...
    "One tactic used is to protest that any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people, their activity and lifestyle, are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination."
    I have never seen any evidence of Church policy discriminating against this particular group.I include this statement from the same CDF document to add substance to my claim...
    "It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law."

    The laws of the country that gave Griffin airtime contest your opinion that he should have been allowed to express his veiw and I he only got away with it by pretending to be something he is not which has since been exposed legally if I remember rightly.
    In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech".
    In England, several statutes protect several categories of persons from hate speech. The statutes forbid communication which is hateful, threatening, abusive, or insulting and which targets a person on account of skin colour, race, nationality (including citizenship), ethnic or national origin, religion, or sexual orientation.
    Applying this to the debate, the above laws are in place due to the reality of speech and action being two parts of the same equation, one being a precurser for the other.
    Therein is your inconsistancy in my veiw, Griffin's words have a direct effect on the social equilibrium of multicultural Britain through action just as an opinion of a Catholic medical practitioner should have a bearing on their action and that action respected because it isn't directing hate at anyone or anygroup as the Facist does.
    Accomodating for ones beleifs is unseperable from the resulting actions and to argue this fact is to come from a hypothetical veiwpoint not grounded in reality.
    In England a Sikh policeman is exempt from wearing a standard uniform helmet and the badge goes on his Turban...would you have a problem with this Anthony?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Anthony,
    Please show me a theorist that has succesfully combined Darwin and Theism, I am intrigued.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Stefan,

    I fail to understand how you are intrigued. I presume you are aware of the following theists. And they are simply pulled from memory.
    Teilhard de Chardin, Hans Kung, Ken Miller, Simon Conway Morris, Howard Van Till. There are numerous others.

    Then we have Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, head of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Culture, claiming that ‘What we mean by evolution is the world as created by God.’ Without bothering to look anywhere I think I am right in saying Pope John Paul 11 spoke in favour of evolution.

    Now Dembski might call them all 'invincibly ignorant' as he called Van Till, but I doubt if they will lose much sleep over him.

    Then it all depends on what you mean by success. They may not successfully convince you of the synthesis but then that was hardly their goal. They have successfully convinced themselves and others. Their religious opinion successfully coexists with their Darwinism. And basically for it to be a success that is all that is needed.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Anthony,
    Van Till, since retirement as a professer from Calvin College has left the Christian faith according to J.W Richards.


    Magisterium Is Concerned with Question of Evolution For It Involves Conception of Man
    Pope John Paul II
    Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences
    October 22, 1996


    theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the mind as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man...
    A theory is a metascientific elaboration, distinct from the results of observation but consistent with them. By means of it a series of independent data and facts can be related and interpreted in a unified explanation. A theory's validity depends on whether or not it can be verified, it is constantly tested against the facts; wherever it can no longer explain the latter, it shows its limitations and unsuitability. It must then be rethought...
    It is by virtue of his spiritual soul that the whole person possesses such a dignity even in his body. Pius XII stressed this essential point: if the human body takes its origin from pre-existent living matter the spiritual soul is immediately created by God...
    In his Encyclical Humani generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII had already stated that there was no opposition between evolution and the doctrine of the faith about man and his vocation, on condition that one did not lose sight of several indisputable points...

    Humani generis Pius XII

    If anyone examines the state of affairs outside the Christian fold, he will easily discover the principle trends that not a few learned men are following. Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism.
    Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences

    ReplyDelete
  84. From previous Pope to present this is what Jay W Richards had to say in his article 'Surprise! The Pope is Catholic' on Jan 7th 2011...
    "Pope Benedict has spoken quite plainly about biological evolution at least until 1968. While he doesn't reject some vague thing called "evolution" (which includes things that no one disputes), he has spoken consistently against Darwinian materialism. In his inaugural Mass as Pope, he said: "We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution."
    Mr J Richards also makes an excellent observation of Ken Miller being an accommodationist to Darwin in my current book 'God and Evolution' published 2010.
    He says " Besides outright dissenters, who abandon key Catholic doctrines rather than seek to preserve them, there are accommodationists who want to make peace with Darwinism and a materialist veiw of science but remain more or less faithfull Catholics.They either live with the tension unresolved or try to intergrate Darwinism in creative if inconsistent ways into their theology.Biologist Ken Miller is an example."

    More Darwinian accommodationism is highlighted by David Klinghoffer in the same book but to quote him from another article...
    "...believers in theistic evolution like Francis Collins, Kenneth Miller, and Simon Conway Morris ask religious believers to pare back key theological beliefs to suit Darwinian doctrine."

    The substantial arguments for incompatibility with Darwin and Theism seem to be stacking Anthony.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Anthony & Larry,

    With regard to abortion, why should it make any difference whether the woman consented to sex or was raped? Why should the foetus have more rights in the former case than in the latter? If we say that abortion is legitimate only when the woman has been raped, then we are implying that there is something wrong with terminating a pregnancy in all other circumstances. And if abortion is wrong in all other circumstances, the main reason must be that the foetus has human rights, such as the right to life. But then you're left wondering why a rape victim's foetus should be deprived of human rights just because of the way it came into being. No, this just doesn't work. A foetus either has human rights or it doesn't (I believe it doesn't until it has some capacity to feel pain and think), and this is independent of the circumstances of conception. One might argue that even if the foetus has human rights, so too does the mother and that her right to decide what happens in her own body trumps the right to life of the foetus. I'm not sure I find this argument convincing though; I'll have to give it more thought.

    ReplyDelete
  86. Stefan,

    If I wasn’t aware of who these guys are you might be able to get them past me. But both are from the right wing Discovery Institute which has taken serious credibility hits in the last decade and a half. Richards’ quoting of the pope means zilch. No believer will tell you they are ‘some casual and meaningless product of evolution.’ They see god behind that evolution. As for Richards’ criticism of Miller, it is Richards’ criticism. Means nothing one way or the other. Same for David Klinghoffer. There is nothing substantive, merely opinion. Miller might have a negative opinion about them but it hardly matters. It was not his credibility destroyed at Dover.

    Shouting about people not remotely persuaded by their arguments is what the DI does Stefan. So when you tell us that ‘the substantial arguments for incompatibility with Darwin and Theism seem to be stacking’ and you provide two people from a conservative institution who support Intelligent Design my response is: much the same as ID stacking up as a science. It is to science what astrology is to astronomy.

    And if that is what intrigues you, well ….

    ReplyDelete
  87. Alfie,

    I think you are right but that was not the logic behind my argument. When the matter is phrased so starkly about the rapist it can get people to sit back and think. The woman who in normal circumstances might not consider an abortion might very much do so if pregnancy was the result of rape. And that then leads on to the rights of the foetus issue. If it really is about the right of the foetus then the response from the woman would be the same in all circumstances. It is really about the denial of a woman's choice. And we try to tease out the circumstances in which that choice might be made and the factors that bear on it. I think I used a different approach to drawing out the points you seek to make. Or at east that is what I hope I did.

    ReplyDelete
  88. You are quite right Anthony, No believer 'should' tell you they are 'some casual and meaningless product of evolution' the problem with the accommodationism of Darwinism within an theistic framework is it exists because that is exactly what Darwins theory is - blind, random, mutations.The best the accommodationist can offer to combine Darwin and God is offer us a Deism for as soon as God so much as slightly interacts with the unguided material processes of Darwin it simply is no longer unguided and thus no longer Darwin.In fact one could argue that, all other factors aside, trying to accommodate a theory that pertains to purposelessness in a theory that is built on purpose is where the inconsistency lies.
    That is why Richards quoted His Holiness!
    You seem to place a lot of emphisis on the Dover trial in trying to disprove peoples credibility.Firstly, the legal system that trial was conducted under needs its own credibility brought into question when Eugenie Scott who served as scientific and educational consultant for the plaintiffs acts in complete contradiction to the outcome of that trial actively introducing religion to the science class.Secondly, Dover has no bearing on contesting the claims of Darwinsims incompatibility with Theism thus ruling about the content of curriculum in schools.If anything Judge Jones ruling goes someway to adding substance to my argument in that, in it's own essence, it further defines the clear distinction between materialistic science and religion so painfully obvious in Theistic Evolution.I offered up Richards and Klinghoffer's opinions on Darwinian accomodationism, no more no less.Based on your assumption that there is no substance to an opinion simply because it is an opinion then apart from scientifically provable phenomina there is no substance to any theory unless it is absolutely provable time and time again.
    That leaves a lot in the human remit to unsubstantiated opinion and not much left to trade in ideas if they mean nothing.
    What intrigues me is that Van Till, a Professer of Physics and devout Christian Theistic Evolutionist in his own words "eventually felt the need to extend my intellectual exploration into the philosophical territories far outside the one provided by Calvanism".
    No Discovery Institute to blame for Van Tills dissent or is his 'just' an opinion too?

    ReplyDelete
  89. Stefan
    im just thinking from the womans point of view, maybe not wanting to raise a child that remineded her every day of what she'd suffered.
    Generally i think it should be the womans choice. But i detest stories of women using abortions as a fall back to their own slack birth control practices.

    ReplyDelete
  90. I don't think anyone should have the choice to destroy a human foetus Larry irrespective of how terrible a circumstance is and rape is just one scenario of many that some would argue justify murder in the womb.
    Another dangerous path that materialistic science is leading us has been in the news recently...

    www.dailymail.co.uk
    18th January 2011
    "Women are set to receive thousands of pounds for donating their eggs under a plan to help more infertile women conceive.
    It would remove the current limit of £250 compensation for undergoing the complex process, which involves taking powerful and potentially dangerous drugs and having a ‘harvesting’ operation.
    Fertility doctors backed the move, but ethics groups expressed concern that women’s bodies were being turned into ‘commodities’.
    The move comes after a High Court judge opened the way last year for surrogate mothers to be paid, a practice which had been banned.
    In the United States, women can be paid up to £5,000 for allowing their eggs to be harvested.
    European law forbids cash payments but permits compensation, and the HFEA (Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority) says it could be ‘more generous’ within current legislation. The change would not need to be approved by Parliament."

    ReplyDelete
  91. Stefan,

    'I'm surprised at this statement "A ball of cells can't feel pain and it can't think, so it's not a human being in my book." considering all the frontloaded infomation contained therein as DNA you of all people with your understanding of the Genome should be in awe at this technical acheivement'

    Sperm also contains "frontloaded information" in the form of DNA. So does each sperm have a right to an egg? I suppose I find all forms of life awesome; I just don't think there is a creator to be in awe of.

    "so for you to reach the conclusion "I don't have a moral objection to early abortions" demonstrates the the scientific atheist's assumed ownership of processes they barely understand let alone can replicate thus nullifying the claim of their control over it."

    I don't claim "ownership" of any processes apart from those that take place in my own body. You are implying that we should not try to control a biological process until we completely understand it. So should we stop trying to treat cancer or psychiatric illnesses until we know more?

    ReplyDelete
  92. We aren't talking about controlling a biological process here Alfie though are we, we're talking about terminating one.
    For me there is no comparison between a disease and the germination of human life, for a materialistic sceintist I have no doubt they can see similarities which further points out to me the very danger they pose to human society.As for psychiatric illness, are you implying treatment via biological processes here, that itself is a contentious argument and one close to home for me as my father is what they term 'Bopolar' and is convinced of the chemical composition of the brain is the cause of his plight.Drugs can do all sorts of 'wonders', make you happy, sad or 'stabilised' but they don't address the route cause of the problems in my opinion.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Stefan,

    "We aren't talking about controlling a biological process here Alfie though are we, we're talking about terminating one.

    True, but the principle behind your argument is that we shouldn't interfere with a biological process until we thoroughly understand it. I was just illustrating the implications of such a principle.

    "As for psychiatric illness, are you implying treatment via biological processes here, that itself is a contentious argument and one close to home for me as my father is what they term 'Bopolar' and is convinced of the chemical composition of the brain is the cause of his plight."

    It is close to home for me too. I suffer from depression and obsessive compulsive disorder and have been hospitalised 4 times since 2008. I believe my illness is caused by both a genetic predisposition and childhood trauma. Perhaps the effect of these factors is a biochemical imbalance in my brain - that is what my doctors think anyway.

    "Drugs can do all sorts of 'wonders', make you happy, sad or 'stabilised' but they don't address the route cause of the problems in my opinion."

    I have been in therapy on and off for years, but I have not definitively discovered the "route cause of the problems". Even if I did, it wouldn't make my problems disappear. A combination of medication and a new kind of therapy has been working well for me recently, but I don't expect any miracles. I do hope your father stays well and finds peace of mind; if he finds it in biochemical explanations for his illness - which would seem to be valid to a large extent - then I don't see that as a problem.

    ReplyDelete
  94. Thanks for your kind words Alfie.Ofcourse I meant Bi-polar, I only the saw the typo re-reading it.My Father is currently doing very well without meds albeit with his brother passing on last Easter as a result of a stroke of which he has had two minor ones already.He is a staunch Atheist like yourself and I can see the loneliness of that in his eyes now which for me is very sad.On a brighter note he announced tonight he has invested in a dream trip to Cuba in March, one of the highlights being to visit the Che Guevara Mausoleum...a revolutionary he held in great esteem.
    Alfie, maybe the course you intend doing will be a focus for you away from your problems.My Brother-in-law has improved loads since undertaking his psycology degree suffering with depression after the suicide of his brother five years ago.

    ReplyDelete
  95. The Morning After

    Nuala,

    ‘I don't think religion is a big factor in this.’

    It seems to have been a big factor in the Kerry woman being sent on a tour by a doctor. How wide a phenomenon that is I don’t know. I don’t know the stats but I know few men who would oppose their partners using the pill, morning after or more regular. Women are not as easy for men to control as they once were. I think your ma had it right about things moving in the direction of women.

    ‘I have had to sit and listen to derogatory comments in relation to women all my life, and sadly a lot of them have come from other women.’

    But was it about gender or about something else? For example, you probably know quite a few women who would put other women down for simply having a different political view.

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  96. Fionnchú

    ‘the days of a mass chorus of the faithful responding to Il Papa
    are long gone.’

    I think so too. Just look at the chapels on a Sunday. I recall as a child having to stand outside in the crowd with my mother as there was no room to get in. Now they could all get into the front pew.

    Denis Faul, when saying mass in the Blocks, used the term ‘hatch, match and despatch Catholics.’ He was referring to the French but it is much wider today.

    ‘I do wish more people took advantage of contraception...’

    They will. Vatican roulette just seems like cheating. I think in time the contraception stance will be abandoned by the Church. They will come up with some form of words and select a passage from the bible to justify it.

    In sexual relations people should be free to do what they want. It is not as if they are coercing each other. I would be open to all arguments, apart from religious ones, about regulation and modes of behaviour. And that would hold true to the issue of gays, condom use, same sex marriages, single parent families or whatever. If people present solid material arguments against whatever mode it should be considered otherwise we our defending a prejudice of our own that might be detrimental to society. I dislike the notion of people being discriminated against on the basis of a mere opinion or sentiment that is hostile to their behaviour. This notion that ‘I won’t approve your marriage because you don’t think the way I think you should think’ is an anathema.

    ‘the Vicar of Christ’

    I find these titles so funny. When I hear people refer to his holiness I just laugh. The KK call theirs grand wizards or something.

    ‘Is the current crop of teeming babies popping out of ever-younger teens any social or moral progress?’

    I don’t believe it is. More sex education is needed and the provision of family planning facilities. We may ultimately see the age of consent lowered.

    ‘However, when birth control is easily purchased but couples can't be arsed to use it, what do we do?’

    I don’t know the answer. It is frustrating. I think among the young there is a growing awareness of the issue.

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  97. Marty,

    Pass on our best wishes to Frances. She is sound. It is a while since we last saw her.

    Aine,

    Of course the morning after pill should be everywhere, and on a no questions asked basis. Those who do not wish to avail of it should have that choice just as those who do wish to have it. It is not up to some bigot with an opinion, religious, sporting or otherwise, to start telling people what service they should or should not be provided with. Imagine me working in a chemist saying to you because you are a Chelsea fan – they took Torres from us - that I was not providing you with the morning after pill because you didn’t support the team I support.

    I don’t see it as abortion either. And if it is abortion then I have no problems with it. The term means nothing to me. I would not favour abortion as we currently understand it but for all that I will defer to a woman’s right to choose.

    ‘I remember about 12 years ago going to my doctor for a prescription for the "morning after pill" and when i went to the chemist on Andersonstown Rd they literally chased me out the door - it took phoning around about 4/5 chemists in West Belfast before I could go get the damn thing.’

    What a self righteous crank. ‘if you don’t live the way I tell you to live - because I have a religious opinion which you must bow to because it is mine - we will discriminate against you.’

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  98. John,

    The conscience clause has led to much debate in western societies. I think the US, where all the religious crazies seem to gather, is more in favour of it than European countries. I think there must always be room for conscientious objection but for me it is about withdrawing from something rather than inflicting an action on somebody. Should the doctor be allowed to penalise people on the basis of his religious opinion which may not be theirs? I don’t believe so. He should not be in the profession or at least be put somewhere within it where these issues of conflict don’t arise. The worshiper of the Flying Spaghetti Monster will be inflicting his opinion on those who prefer beans on their toast. Then the problem arises of the Liverpool supporter who might not want to treat a Man Utd supporter. His opinions should not be trumped by religious opinions. If a person wants to withdraw from something on the grounds of conscience then I think they can do so without being jailed for it like so many other conscientious objectors in the past. I have a strong belief in conscientious objection. I just have a difficulty with them seeking to make others pay for their own conscience. Christians might think abortion is wrong but there is no reason for anyone to submit to the religious opinion of another in any walk of life. The children of Jehovah's Witnesses should be protected from their parents' opposition to blood transfusions. If the parents choose it for themselves, fine. They must not be allowed to choose it for anyone else.

    I think a doctor should be allowed to give a lethal drug if asked. But it has to be asked by the person who requests it. For this reason I have long been a supporter of the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland despite harbouring misgivings about some aspects of what has happened there. These facilities should be available at home and people should not have to travel abroad for them.

    “I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I
    advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.”

    To the best of my knowledge this is no longer required in medical training.

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  99. John,

    ‘It somehow doesn’t seem right to refer to the destruction of human life as a ‘service’.’

    But this is the area of dispute. Western society does not regard it as such. It is only a matter of time before Ireland has abortion legalised as well. In time we shall see euthanasia clinics like Dignitas also. That has been the trend – away from Catholic morality towards secularism. If it wasn’t we would have neither divorce nor contraception. I also think that the pro-life lobby weaken their own case by trying to extend the concept of abortion back to the morning after pill stage. People like me who dislike the abortion practice have no sympathy with the argument when stretched to that position. If we genuinely saw it as murder we would never opt for it.

    I do not consider this a ‘religious opinion,’ on the contrary it is a deduction made from the natural moral law and until very recently universally accepted.

    It is a religious opinion. I don’t accept there is any such thing as natural moral law. We all have our own view of what we would like it to be but in my view it does not exist. I imagine any such a thing would be immutable and timeless. It changes as moral thinking changes. What we have is people telling us that the moral law they agree with is the natural moral law. The moral philosopher that Stefan flagged up, Alasdair MacIntyre, made a similar point in relation to human rights. Human rights are what humans make them. We might not like it but that is where it is at. I believe there should be natural rights but too many disagree.

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  100. John,

    ‘In a normal society ... IVF would be criminalised.’

    I would hate to live in that normal society. It would be either the worst type of police state or priest state imaginable. What philosophical reasons as distinct from theological reasons could exist for that?

    Alfie: ‘A ball of cells can't feel pain and it can't think, so it's not a human being in my book.’

    That would be my view

    John,

    ‘So, when do you consider that it becomes a human being?’

    That’s the problem. I don’t know and have long found the practice of abortion distasteful. Given that religious opinion means nothing to me I can only go with the current medical opinion. Few want to think they are advocating the murder of children. Even Ireland doesn’t really regard it as murder. We can leave the country to have an abortion and return without consequence but could not leave with our husbands in order to kill them and then return and meet no scrutiny or sanction.

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  101. John,

    I would rather share a cloud with a paedophile priest than see him burn in hell. This need to eternally punish is one of the more unsavoury aspects of religion. I would fear that type of god. But then I don’t fear gods or devils given that there are none.

    ‘The best way to get to heaven is to think about hell and run in the opposite direction.’

    Strange that god would create us in such a way that fear of hell rather than love of god is what guides our actions. What image of god are we then made in? We are not moral creatures in that schema, merely calculators of costs and benefits. Even more reason for believing none of it. The person who as a matter of conscience and good moral capacity opts out of belief in god or religion, should hardly be in hell and the calculating type be in heaven.

    I don’t believe in either heaven or hell and it doesn’t make me behave any more or less morally.

    ‘If those priests who abused children believed in it too, would they have acted the way they did?’

    What makes you think they don’t believe in it? Why is fear of the devil a greater motivator than the love of god? There is something odd about this.

    ‘The greatest pain of hell is the pain of having lost God. It is His mercy that has attached terrible punishments to it so as to make us not want to go there.’

    He could have saved himself and us the bother by not creating us to begin with. None of us asked to be born so god could ask us to jump through hoops while he and his other creation, the devil, could play tug of war or eat popcorn while they enjoyed the show.

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  102. Michaelhenry,

    I found your post reflecting my own thoughts about John’s position. I honestly don’t know if he supports killing but for the world of me I fail to understand how we can advocate taking human life in conflicts like the North went through yet damn to hell the woman who gets a morning after pill. I can’t comprehend the type or morality that would see the obliteration of the unborn Omagh twins as somehow morally superior to the taking of the morning after pill.

    John,

    ‘I oppose abortion on philosophical grounds.’

    What are those philosophical grounds that would differentiate them from theological grounds?

    ‘It is wrong to kill the innocent.’

    Agreed

    ‘It is not always wrong to kill in war.’

    Agreed. But what about the innocent?

    ‘It is not wrong to execute a criminal who has committed a grave crime.’

    I disagree.

    ‘This is not religion but rather ethics.’

    It is probably religiously informed ethics.

    ‘no one has a right to a child, and there will always be cases where parents cannot have them.’

    Does this imply enforced sterilisation is legitimate?

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  103. Alfie,

    ‘people are never directly informed by God that they are being put to the test.’

    Sort of goes to the point. All we have is a body of men (usually) telling us we will go to hell if we don’t behave or think as they want us to. Why should we take them any more seriously on the matter than we would a cricket team? All they have is an opinion that god created them and we have an opinion that they created god.

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  104. John,

    I believe it would (meet the just war criteria) insofar as the legitimacy of it was not undermined by the recognition of Leinster House and Stormont.

    I don’t know what Just War theory you have been reading but I have seen nothing but three points from Aquinas (which don’t embrace just war theory in its entirety) that would permit me to agree with you. That is not to say the war was not just, merely that it would not meet the stringent criteria of Just War theory.

    ‘Celibacy has been with the Church from the time of the Apostles.’

    The extent to which it was present is a much debated matter. Priests and popes were married many centuries AD. I have read that Ciricius was married in the 4th Century and left the wife to become pope. In the 6th Century Pope Pelagius permitted married priests on the condition they did not hand over property to their offspring. On this I would like to cite something I found browsing for this particular discussion. It is on the position of Hans Kung.

    ‘Citing the New Testament, he says that Jesus and St Paul practised celibacy but “allowed full freedom in this matter to each individual”. St Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians wrote: “Because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.” Peter and the apostles were married and their ministries did not suffer, he said, pointing out that thousands of priests protested when the new law was introduced as late as the 11th century.’

    Quotes prove nothing but I did think you would find this interesting insofar as it traces something of real history and is not theoretical gobbledegook.

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  105. Anthony,

    ‘I don’t know what Just War theory you have been reading but I have seen nothing but three points from Aquinas (which don’t embrace just war theory in its entirety) that would permit me to agree with you’

    To quote Terence MacSwiney:

    “We stand on the ground that the English Government in Ireland is founded in usurpation and as such deny its authority. But if it be argued, assuming it as Ireland's case, that a usurped authority, gradually acquiesced in by the people, ultimately becomes the same as legitimate, the reply is still clear. For ourselves we meet the assumption with a simple denial, appealing to Irish History for evidence that we never acquiesced in the English Usurpation. But to those who are not satisfied with this simple denial, we can point out that even an authority, originally founded legitimately, may be resisted when abusing its power to the ruin of the Commonwealth. We still stand on the ground that the English government is founded in usurpation, but we can dispose of all objections by proving the extremer case. This is the case Dr. Murray, already quoted, discusses. "The question," he writes, "is about resistance to an established and legitimate government which abuses its power." (Essays, Chiefly Theological, Vol. 4.) He continues: "The common opinion of a large number of our theologians, then, is that it is lawful to resist by force, and if necessary to depose, the sovereign ruler or rulers, in the extreme—the very extreme—case wherein the following conditions are found united:
    "1. The tyranny must be excessive—intolerable.
    "2. The tyranny must be manifest, manifest to men of good sense and right feeling.
    "3. The evils inflicted by the tyrant must be greater than those which would ensue from resisting and deposing him.
    "4. There must be no other available way of getting rid of the tyranny except by recurring to the extreme course.
    "5. There must be a moral certainty of success.
    "6. The revolution must be one conducted or approved by the community at large ... the refusal of a small party in the State to join with the overwhelming mass of their countrymen would not render the resistance of the latter unlawful." (Essays, Chiefly Theological; see also Rickaby, Moral Philosophy, Chap. 8, Sec. 7.)
    Some of these conditions are drawn out at much length by Dr. Murray. I give what is outstanding. How easily they could fit Irish conditions must strike anyone. I think it might fairly be said that our leaders generally would, if asked to lay down conditions for a rising, have framed some more stringent than these. It might be said, in truth, of some of them that they seem to wait for more than a moral certainty of success, an absolute certainty, that can never be looked for in war.”

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  106. Anthony,

    On the celibacy issue. There are many studies, which show the apostolic origin of priestly celibacy.

    Christian Cochini's Apostolic Origins of Clerical Celibacy is particularly interesting.

    Here is a brief online review of it:

    "He examines the question of when the tradition of priestly celibacy began in the Latin Church, and he is able to trace it back to its origins with the apostles. He examines evidence about the marital status of every known bishop, priest or deacon of the period and gives an exhaustive list of married clerics from apostolic times until the end of the seventh century, a list that includes not only the Western Church, but the East and also the Nestorian, Novatian and Pelagian Church. Then Cochini examines the relevant Church documents for the same period, including council and synod documents, papal letters, ecclesial and even secular legislation as it relates to the problem. He also provides a survey of scholarly literature on the topic.

    This is the definitive scholarly statement on the discipline of priestly celibacy in the Church East and West. What Cochini shows through patristic sources and conciliar documentation is that from the beginning of the Church, although married men could be priests, they were required to vow to celibacy before ordination, meaning they intended to live a life of continence. He provides extensive documentation, a bibliography and an index.

    "This work is of the first importance. It is the result of serious and extensive research. There is nothing even remotely comparable to this work in this whole century."
    - Henri Cardinal de Lubac"

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  107. John,

    ‘It is the naturally knowable moral law. Its most basic principle is ‘do good and avoid evil’. There are other general principles based in that first principle, such as ‘do not kill’, ‘love God,’ ‘care for your offspring’ etc. ‘

    Love god is theology and has nothing whatsoever to do with natural moral law. And we know what ‘do not kill’ means – do not kill those who we like, others are ok to kill.

    ‘God is established by reason.’

    Yet reason has failed to establish a god. So many people have reasoned god out of existence. Faith keeps god in.

    ‘how could a person have faith in God, on the word of God if he didn’t know that God existed?’

    Because they have faith that god exists not knowledge. Take a glance some day through Michael Shermer’s ‘Why People Believe Weird Things’ and you will perhaps find something useful as to why people believe the things they do. There are thousands of gods that people have believed in over the aeons. As they say I believe in one less than you.

    ‘There are many ways to show the existence of God, eg;

    “If contingent things exist, they demand as their ultimate explanation (that is as their sufficient reason for existing) the existence of a Being which is necessary and non-contingent, a First Being which does not depend on causes.

    Now it is undeniable that contingent things exist.

    Therefore, there exists a Being which is necessary and non-contingent, a First Being which does not depend on causes. This Being we call God.

    Therefore God exists.”
    (Paul Glenn’s Theodicy).’

    This takes us into the realm of Acquinas speculation but the problem of regress presents itself each time this logic is reverted to. Trying to halt the regress by inserting god does not answer the question. It merely amounts to a faith based on the belief that nothing better can be thought of. Where did god come from if every thing we know has to have a cause? Makes no sense to me.

    I have never read Aquinas unmediated so I have to rely on the interpretation provided by authors that did. And they are not all hostile.

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  108. John,

    ‘Other people will look at the world, in its beauty and order; they will see a sunset, a rose or the birth of a baby and arrive at the same conclusion but in a simpler way. They see the work of art and realise that there must be an ‘artist’, the watch and realise there must be a ‘watchmaker’.’

    This goes back to Paley. But others will look at it and see the appearance of design but no designer whatsoever.

    ‘I believe in only one truth, so if something is ethical it must be in keeping with a religion revealed by God.’

    And you know I think that wholly wrong. Can atheists not be ethical? There are atheists who do not rape children and religious believers who do. Religious belief does not cause them to rape but it failed to prevent rape in many cases.

    ‘But there would be no point in my arguing on the basis of what the
    Catholic Church teaches unless you accept that Church as an authority.’

    True. It has no authority over me. Just a club with an opinion that I don’t belong to.

    ‘Hence everything I have argued on here has been done on the basis of
    philosophy rather than theology.’

    A priest once told me that god can be proved theologically but not philosophically. And theology is a matter of faith. I know Coplestone takes a different view on the philosophy. Aquinas I think veered from one position to the other.

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  109. ‘Love god is theology and has nothing whatsoever to do with natural moral law.’

    It is from natural theology, or theodicy, a branch of metaphysics. Of course the same concept is explored in revealed theology, but in the light of faith whereas I was using it purely in the light of reason.

    ‘Yet reason has failed to establish a god.’

    There are countless reasoned proofs of the existence of God, most notably the five ways of St Thomas. I have only seen one or two arguments purporting to deny God which have been put forward, and these are easily answered.

    ‘Because they have faith that god exists not knowledge.’

    The existence of God is a ‘preamble of faith’ in that you need to accept His existence BEFORE you can have faith in Him. Now a lot of people begin to accept his existence based on faith in their parents, but at some point they have to confront the issue themselves. It is not possible to accept the existence of God on faith in God alone, because you would be putting your trust in an unknown and possibly non-existent being to accept that the unknown being exists.

    ‘Take a glance some day through Michael Shermer’s ‘Why People Believe Weird Things’ and you will perhaps find something useful as to why people believe the things they do.’

    I will look out for this, although I don’t believe in anything weird.

    ‘There are thousands of gods that people have believed in over the aeons. As they say I believe in one less than you.’

    Do you not think that this need or hunger for God suggests that it is necessary to the human condition? Normally in nature, if there is a need it can be fulfilled. A cow is hungry, he looks down and sees grass and eats. Man is hungry for God, how strange if he has a hunger he cannot fulfil.

    ‘This takes us into the realm of Acquinas speculation but the problem of regress presents itself each time this logic is reverted to.’

    The ‘problem of regress’ is absolutely not relevant and is a mistaken objection. The point is that contingent beings exist; they could not exist unless an ‘necessary being’ existed. It isn’t relevant if the number of contingent beings is large or small, finite or infinite, but none would exist unless a 'necessary being’ existed.

    ‘Where did god come from if every thing we know has to have a cause?’

    Everything, God included must have a sufficient reason for its existence, only produced reality must have a cause. By definition God is ‘uncaused’ and to ask what caused Him doesn’t make any sense.

    ‘I have never read Aquinas unmediated so I have to rely on the interpretation provided by authors that did. And they are not all hostile.’

    You can’t beat the clarity of Saint Thomas, although, to be fully appreciated, they do require some understanding of Aristotelian metaphysics. Few ‘hostile’ authors have gone to the bother of even understanding his five ways. A notable example of this is Richard Dawkins in his ‘God Delusion’ where he ‘refutes’ them without having a clue of what they meant. It would be like me, jumping in and ‘refuting’ Einstein without ever understanding him.

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  110. Anthony,

    “‘I believe in only one truth, so if something is ethical it must be in keeping with a religion revealed by God.’”

    ‘And you know I think that wholly wrong. Can atheists not be ethical? There are atheists who do not rape children and religious believers who do. Religious belief does not cause them to rape but it failed to prevent rape in many cases.’

    I think you took me up wrongly here, maybe I wasn’t clear. What I meant was that if something is true in ethics it must also be true in a religion that is revealed, assuming such a thing existed, as something can’t be true in one area and false in another. I was in no way implying that atheists can’t be ethical.

    However, now that you raise the subject, I fail to see on what they base their morality. If there is no God, if we are just material beings, why would anyone care to even consider morality? Morality without God is either just etiquette or else a code of civil laws imposed against the wishes of vast numbers of peoples without any foundation.

    Having said that; I agree that in many fields atheists are very good people, putting many religious people to shame. Maybe that is an atheist form of hypocrisy. Living a good life in spite of one’s beliefs.

    ‘A priest once told me that god can be proved theologically but not philosophically.’

    The priest was totally wrong. Theology takes the existence of God as a given, which is established in philosophy. I’m not sure why you think that Aquinas veered in any way on this. He clearly established the philosophical proofs for the existence of God throughout his works.

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  111. Fionnchú

    I think there is a greater chance of religious belief waning in countries where it is not suppressed. In the USSR there were groups like the Union For Militant Atheists trying to coerce non-belief rather than letting people get on with their lives. Stalin knew the advantage of religious sentiment when it came to the life or death struggle against the Nazis. He used it along with nationalism as a motivating force. People not prepared to risk all for communism were certainly prepared to listen to their arch bishop stressing the need for unrelenting resistance.

    ‘Maybe it eventually morphs into 'custom' or 'folklore' as we regard
    Thor today...?’

    The point has long been made that atheists just believe in a god less than those who believe in one god. ~Michel de Montaigne once quipped: ‘Man is certainly stark mad; he cannot make a flea, and yet he makes gods by the dozen.’
    People who believe in the god of the bible don’t believe in Thor or Zeus or whoever. Yet often they insist on the rest of us believing in their god while they don’t want to believe in anybody else’s.

    I respect the right of people to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Yahweh and Allah and whoever else. I don’t respect the belief but then I don’t have to. And I don’t think it should be taught in schools other than as a belief that some people hold to. If they tried to teach my children religion as holding a truth status I would withdraw them from the school. We have senior politicians in the North who think the bible should be taught in the science class. Up there they are not as sophisticated as the ID creationists of your part of the world but it doesn’t stop them trying.

    ‘A last question: has secularism kicked in and stayed put somewhere?
    Scandinavia comes to mind.’

    I think you answered your own question. That would be my stab at it. I only follow it casually. The days for serious study of secularism or politics or anything else for that matter are long behind me! I would love to do it but don’t have any time.

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  112. John


    ‘I believe in only one truth, so if something is ethical it must be in keeping with a religion revealed by God.’

    Why?

    ‘if something is true in ethics it must also be true in a religion that is revealed, assuming such a thing existed, as something
    can’t be true in one area and false in another.’

    Nothing ethically wrong with homosexuality. What revealed religion tells us that?

    ‘If there is no God, if we are just material beings, why would anyone care to even consider morality?’

    Because like everything else it has evolved I suppose through mutual need and surviving better collectively than individually. If we followed the ethics of the bible we would still be murdering children.

    ‘Maybe that is an atheist form of hypocrisy. Living a good life in spite of one’s beliefs.’

    And the religious equivalent is to live a bad life in spite of their beliefs!

    ‘Theology takes the existence of God as a given, which is established in philosophy.’

    God is not established in philosophy. Only in theology as a matter of faith. That is not to say many philosophers do not believe in god. But your god can no more be proved philosophically than the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    ‘I’m not sure why you think that Aquinas veered in any way on this.’

    I much like your term ‘peeping Thomas.’ So, probably because of peeping at Thomists like Fergus Kerr.

    ‘He clearly established the philosophical proofs for the existence of God throughout his works.’

    Just like he did for angels.

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  113. John,

    Love god … ‘is from natural theology, or theodicy, a branch of metaphysics. Of course the same concept is explored in revealed theology, but in the light of faith whereas I was using it purely in the light of reason.’

    But what is there in philosophy that says god must be loved? Natural theology is a mythical but at least it is better than revealed religion.

    ‘There are countless reasoned proofs of the existence of God, most notably the five ways of St Thomas. I have only seen one or two arguments purporting to deny God which have been put forward, and these are easily answered.’

    People might try to reason the existence of god and theologians can be quite good at reasoning. But it is always based on a false premise. It is like reasoning the anatomy of a mermaid. A person might come up with a great physiological description – but if a mermaid does not exist to begin with ...

    ‘you need to accept His existence BEFORE you can have faith in Him.’

    In matters of god faith always comes first.

    ‘It is not possible to accept the existence of God on faith in God alone, because you would be putting your trust in an unknown and possibly non-existent being’ to accept that the unknown being exists.’

    Not sure what that means. But faith alone is the only way to accept the existence of god. They have tried magic and all that and called it miracles to bolster it a bit but it goes back to faith and no scientific evidence for god. Look at the ID liars, laughed out of Dover by a Conservative Bush-appointed judge.

    ‘I don’t believe in anything weird.’

    Angels, virgin births, surviving one’s own death, transubstantiation, miracles, invisible men? None of that weird to you?

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  114. ‘Do you not think that this need or hunger for God suggests that it is necessary to the human condition?’

    It might well be but that is to do with our fear of dying. It doesn’t prove the existence of god. I know that I am absolutely happy with the no god situation.

    ‘Man is hungry for God, how strange if he has a hunger he cannot fulfil.’

    Man is hungry to prolong his own existence and cannot fulfil that but tries to by inventing gods. Most people cannot fulfil a certain hunger. I have no hunger for god.

    ‘The ‘problem of regress’is absolutely not relevant and is a mistaken objection. The point is that contingent beings exist; they could not exist unless a ‘necessary being’ existed. It isn’t relevant if the number of contingent beings is large or small, finite or infinite, but none would exist unless a 'necessary being’ existed.’

    Contingent on what other than their own evolution? Evolution was necessary to produce them. W can conceive of something small getting bigger incrementally. But to think of a being that was just there always – that is the creation of the contingent beings you refer to who because of their contingency are limited in their thinking to begin with and not surprisingly produce a limited concept.

    ‘By definition God is ‘uncaused’ and to ask what caused Him doesn’t make any sense.’

    This is what makes god nonsense.

    While not a huge fan of Dawkins (great explainer of biology and evolution) I think he asks the right questions on the five reasons of Aquinas. They are the reasonable questions to ask. An atheist mind could never see the Aquinas methodology as addressing the concerns that need dealt with. I find it so unpersuasive.

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  115. John,

    Thanks for this but which of them do you think apply today?

    "1. The tyranny must be excessive—intolerable.
    "2. The tyranny must be manifest, manifest to men of good sense and
    right feeling.
    "3. The evils inflicted by the tyrant must be greater than those which
    would ensue from resisting and deposing him.
    "4. There must be no other available way of getting rid of the tyranny
    except by recurring to the extreme course.
    "5. There must be a moral certainty of success.
    "6. The revolution must be one conducted or approved by the community
    at large ... the refusal of a small party in the State to join with the
    overwhelming mass of their countrymen would not render the resistance
    of the latter unlawful." (Essays, Chiefly Theological; see also
    Rickaby, Moral Philosophy, Chap. 8, Sec. 7.)

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  116. John,

    ‘Christian Cochini's Apostolic Origins of Clerical Celibacy is particularly interesting …. Here is a brief online review of it … Henri Cardinal de Lubac.’

    Thanks again. I just wonder about works of these types that seem to produce little in the way of reviews (that I could find). How serious could they be?

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