Tonight The Pensive Quill features an article by guest writer, Helen McClafferty, again highlighting the injustices being endured by Gerry McGeough
A political candidate stands as an Independent on issues of principle during
elections in Zimbabwe. Every political dirty trick and smear in the book is used
against him during the campaign.
At the end of the election count, he is arrested as he leaves the Poll Count
Center and taken for interrogation. The international community, with Britain
taking the lead, would be in uproar squealing over the injustice of it all.
Despite his high-profile during the election and before, the Zimbabwe police
state that they arrested him at the Center only because they had no idea of his
whereabouts prior to that date. The international media are disgusted at the
pathetic excuse.
A few days later, the candidate is charged with attacks against the former
Rhodesian military going back 35 years and thrown in jail. Only after a massive
legal struggle is he granted bail and freed under severe restrictions. Due to
these restrictions he is unable to pursue his teaching career, which has an
effect on his family as he is the main breadwinner.
While his political enemies continue to slander him on the Internet, he is
dragged before courts every month and the case is put back for no good reason
every time. Britain continues to highlight the injustice of his case and demands
that all politically motivated charges be dropped.
Two-and-a-half years after his arrest, the candidate remains in legal limbo. He
suffers a major heart attack. The British press and media are in uproar and
demand that Robert Mugabe put an end to this vindictive political persecution.
The candidate survives the heart-attack but his health is now a source of major
concern to his legal team. Regardless of this, the Zimbabwe authorities go ahead
with a trial against him, which begins exactly three years to the day after his
arrest.
In order to try him, a special non-jury court system is resurrected for the
event, even though this system has been repealed years earlier and is
notoriously corrupt. The British government is hysterical about this human
rights abuse.
The trial is stopped for an Abuse of Process application. This is refused
despite the excellent legal arguments in its favor.
The trial resumes six months after it first began. On the second day, the
candidate is rushed to hospital for emergency heart treatment. The local
national media censor all reporting on this major development. The British are
outraged.
Following a surgical procedure, the trial is resumed for a third time. The
charges against him involve membership of a Nationalist group and the wounding
of a Rhodesian soldier during the conflict 30 years earlier.
The evidence against the candidate includes one of his novels, a stated work of
fiction, which has been published and on sale for years. A chapter from this
novel is read out of context in court and entered as "evidence". The
international community is aghast at the idiocy of such a development, and
writers' guilds around the world protest at the injustice of such Philistine
behavior.
Next, it emerges that the candidate once sought political asylum in Sweden. The
Swedish government readily hand over his application papers to the Zimbabwean
authorities and dispatch one of their Immigration Officials to testify against
the candidate. This constitutes the prosecution's main evidence.
International Human Rights and Refugee Groups are beside themselves with fury
and the UN condemns the move. The British threaten a boycott against Zimbabwe
and lecture the Swedes on their treachery.
The trial ends and the candidate is told to brace himself for a twenty year
sentence.
The above story is hardly imaginable. A government provokes international anger
in order to pursue a vindictive, politically motivated trial against someone
just because he stood in an election and articulated views that were at odds
with the powers that be.
Guess what? All of this has happened, not in Zimbabwe but in the North of
Ireland against Gerry McGeough. The only difference is that the British
government far from speaking out against the injustice is actually responsible
for it. Also, the international community, human rights groups and writers'
guilds have been remarkably silent about it all. It's time we all spoke out.
Helen,
ReplyDeleteput in such a manner it certainly makes you think
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHelen we know Gerry would have been free as a bird today had he toed the party line or at least not rocked the boat by showing the world that the bearded one and Marty fisherman,had not delivered the whole republican community to their new masters,and as you and Gerry are religious type people would it be fitting that after Gerry Kelly had assured his comrade that all was well for him to return home,that he should now be sent to the masters as a latter day John the baptist,unlike John of legend if Gerry keeps his head and I,m sure he will all will be well.I came from Mary Kennedy,s funeral today and I met long time republican activists who had nothing good to say about the leadership and psf,the numbers whether Mickeyboy wants to believe it or not are growing by the day,the may have fooled some of the people all of the time but its starting to look like a lot more of the people are seeing them for what they have really become ie,subservient lackeys to their brit masters.
ReplyDeleteHey, Anto can you ever go a month without mentioning PSF in one of you're articles or can you're guests go a month doing likewise mentioning PSF for that matter? You're starting to come across as a substitute for Mick McDowell being fixated on you know who,only saying chara.
ReplyDeleteShim you make our Mickeyboy sound like Steven Hawkin ya plonker! its a political post,I know I know there,s not much political about psf other than they are registered as such,more a comedy of errors to quote Willie Shakespear !
ReplyDeletewell i can hardly say that im for
ReplyDeletefree speech then agree what shim
wrote- all of my views even those
against AM have always been put on
the Quill-
i have to agree what marty said-
debate is the reason why i comment
here-maybe shim wants to tell us what we should talk about
for the record i can not go a month
without bringing up the dissidents
The good idea brigade in the party,
i avoid them like the plague-they
are next years dissidents lol
Michaelhenry,
ReplyDeletethat is funny.
As for your views, they are as welcome here as the views of anybody else. And whether we agree with you or not (well we never agree!) you bring colour to the blog. It would be a much duller place without the likes of you and Marty about.
Anthony I agree our Mickeyboy is infurating,like Nuala,Robert wherever he is? and many others here on the Quill and I for one respect the man/woman who stands their ground,even though sometimes I,d gladly help Mrs Mickeyboy bury the f##ker alive, only kiddin mo cara !!
ReplyDeleteThe letter from Owen Patterson addressing Joe Higgins enquiry as to wether 'Diplock' courts were phased out or not makes interesting reading stating that they was phased out in July 2007 but in special circumstances they will be still be used as we have seen in this particular case.
ReplyDeleteHelen
ReplyDeleteI agree with others here, I thought this was one of the best articles of its type I have ever read. Just spot on about the injustice of this whole sorry charade.
'The evidence against the candidate includes one of his novels, a stated work of
ReplyDeletefiction, which has been published and on sale for years. A chapter from this novel is read out of context in court and entered
as "evidence".'
It brought a degree of humour to the trial, when after passages being read out for at least half an hour, his defence asked the judge to read the disclaimer at the front, saying something to the effect of it being a work of fiction and disavowing any resemblance to real life events or people.'
Marty- you make Ian Paisley look like a great Irish Speaker down at the free-state spa. Plonker?What you Del Boy now? What you think I haven't noticed your continence misspelling of our beloved language Marty.Another thing I was speaking to Anto regarding subjects.No need for the insults Marty especially when in come's in the form of the British Cockney.
ReplyDeleteHelen coincidentally I was looking through an old copy of An Glór Gafa this morning, came across a piece about Gerry standing trial in Freiburg, here we are more than twenty years later and he's in court again only this time I doubt you'll see the case in The Republican News (if it's still going). As Marty says the only reason he's there is didn't toe the line.
ReplyDeleteAnthony just a wee aside,yesterday at Mary Kennedy,s funeral the piper played Raglan rd blew me away, nuff said
ReplyDeleteJohn spot on it shows that this trail is a circus,without the sand, and the prosecution are the clowns.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI hope that gerry mcgeogh gets of-
ReplyDeletethere was nothing wrong with the fight for freedom and gerry was on the right side during the war
But i will always say what i believe is the truth
Last week mr mcgeogh was made chief
wizard of the a.o.h- the hibs in tyrone- gerry mcgeogh stated in the local papers that he still supported the peace process- yet there are some who think that gerry
does not toe the line- the truth always comes out- if you want to see it thats another matter.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteShim quote "What you think I havent noticed your continenence misspelling of our beloved language" does that mean I have shown sexual constraint in which language you do not state,or was it a Freudian slip,you should get a manager mo cara instead of handling yourself! as for Ian Paisley and greart Irish speeches, well Richard Aldous,s book Great Irish Speeches ,Ian Paisley,Northern Ireland has come to a time of peace 8th May 2007,this speech as recorded by the author and in his opinion is one of Irelands great speeches,they say the Belfast dialect is old Elizabethan and Shakespear would have been familiar with it,and as we have been copper fastened into the united kingdom by posssibly your comrades in psf there I got them in! it is my right to use cockney or any other slang I wish.I pay my dues I talk the way I choose!but dont worry ya dipstick I shall not be getting into a slagging match with you, I,d rather join Mickeyboy up in his attic,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the article Helen.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember the last time I heard the Gerry McGeogh case being mentioned in the Free State media, so I imagine that the silence further abroad is deafening.
Rory
Antoin
ReplyDeletei thought i was off the wall...wow!!
unfortunately i couldnt understand half of your post. Lovely quaint romantic language the Irish but like the RC church it stands as much chance of making a comeback as the 'DODO'. Even the Dail refused to carry out business in it. I wont learnt it myself to give the finger to the brits. I'll just give them the finger, its less time intensive.
Hopefully this sad wee country will begin the slow grind away from RC GAA FF FG shite that has us where we are in this election.
I see a relative of one of the disappeared may stand agin gerryitwasntme in Louth...Lu.. hope that happens.
Larry-
ReplyDeleteAnother waster to stand against the
bold Gerry- what joyous news
Where are those hardliners when they are needed
The more who stands in elections
against Gerry the better- it will
split those who oppose Sinn Fein
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteeirigi has just said that they are
ReplyDeletegoing to stand for local elections
in the six county's only
There are elections across Irelands
32 county's this year but the eirigi partition dissidents will only contest in the 6 county's
A few months back newry republican
ridicule'd me on the Quill when i
said that eirigi would stand in these elections- looks like the political egg is on his face-
eirigi will take there seats in the councils which they said were
puppets and nothing has changed nothing-
Antion Mac C
ReplyDeleteoff the wall anyday amego, beats the crap outa goody two shoes foney gunk, 5 times round the block to say fuk-all.
michaelhenry
im as incensitive as can be at times but id not call the long suffering relative of a disappeared a 'waster'. it may give louth people pause for thought. They had some bodies dumped on them there.
you may be correct bout Eirigi..who's paying them any heed after all?
'Lovely quaint romantic language the Irish but like the RC church it stands as much chance of making a comeback as the 'DODO'. Even the Dail refused to carry out business in it. I wont learnt it myself to give the finger to the brits. I'll just give them the finger, its less time intensive.'
ReplyDelete"Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam."
Jesus, Mohammed,Lucy and Mo Chara Marty Mr.hot dog,hot dog,No sir,No sir..Boy you have me against the ropes, me boy.Just love you're attack formation Jibberish,Lickerish S*ite-I should bite your entire Fookin style.You must have been drunk when you wrote that Jitta Jabba Son,What can't handle a barrack buster-Stay of the liquor Mr.Marty,Mr.AK-Metaphor..See I can also talk shi*e filled Jitter..Aight Rodders-Follow the leader.
ReplyDeleteShindo sounds like Larry on a good day, whatever your on my son its working,I think you should write the bearded ones election manifesto,or maybe you are already are,your post is full of shit.
ReplyDeleteHere Marty that's a but unfair on Larry, at least his posts make fecking sense! Even when he's had a few. Is Shim the same as Shindo? That last one was utterly bizarre, pity Anthony that crap like this gets sent. Seems to be a few with multiple personalities here
ReplyDeletemarty and martydownunder
ReplyDeletethankyou i thankyou, any positive charachter reference is appreciated mucho grande....i thankyou.
Martydown under your right mo cara our Larry is a bin lid but at least he makes sense whether we agree with him or not and I,ll buy him an extra pint on Friday night when we meet up!
ReplyDeleteMartydownunder,
ReplyDeleteseems to be. We will be more stringent. Can't waste time reading through nionsense. Multiple personalities or sockpuppets as they are termed are not allowed as a long standing rule.
Apparently Gerry Adams is still mp
ReplyDeletefor west belfast
under brit law no-one can resign
from westminister if they have not took the oath
It seems that the only way Gerry
can leave his mp post is to enter
the chamber at westminister and try
to take a seat-
He would then be automatically
disqualified because he never took said oath- a wit would then be moved for a by-election in west belfast
The brits and there stupid laws-
still its all good p.r
Tonights headlines in the Anytout news:Bombardier is 83% PROTESTANT.There is no end to the investigative poweress of the jurnos in the Anytout news,after 25years of almost total political control of west Belfast and now that the bearded one has fled we are being given a rerun of the headlines of the early 80,s the name may have changed but nothing else and our absent mp and his cronies havent made the slightest difference to the people of west Belfast other than line the pockets of a handfull of nodding dogs,wouldnt you think those who are bringing us all this old news would now turn their spotlight and question what exactly has Adams and psf been doing in west Belfast since the 80,s it certainly wasnt highlighting these injustices in the employment market,so much for a future of equals .
ReplyDeleteAntoin,
ReplyDeleteAgreed "shame on all who say nothing"...AND DO NOTHING!
marty,
"as you and Gerry are religious type people would it be fitting that after Gerry Kelly had assured his comrade that all was well for him to return home,that he should now be sent to the masters as a latter day John the baptist,unlike John of legend if Gerry keeps his head and I,m sure he will all will be well?
I must give credit where it is due marty...McGeough is much more "religious" than myself, but I too try to "keep the faith" to a degree. Lol.
"I met long time republican activists who had nothing good to say about the leadership and psf,the numbers whether Mickeyboy wants to believe it or not are growing by the day,the may have fooled some of the people all of the time but its starting to look like a lot more of the people are seeing them for what they have really become ie,subservient lackeys to their brit masters".
Agreed. The same thing is starting to happen in the states. Those who blindly follow psf are starting to take those blinders off (especially since the McGeough/McAnespie incident) and they too are now starting to question the direction psf has taken. An example: some organizations in the states, who wouldn't give me the time of day because I no longer supported psf after the signing of the GFA; nor would they give an ounce of support to Gerry these past 3 1/2 years, are now reaching out to me asking “ how can they help”? For the first time, in 3 years, the Irish Echo published one of my “Letters to the Editor” about Gerry’s case in last week’s edition. Prior to that I would have to buy an ad in all the Irish-American newspapers in order to get the facts out about Gerry’s trial. To me that is an eye opener right there and I'm thrilled to see people are starting to think politically outside the box again. Now we just have to convince the Brits to stop their almost 4 year vindictive campaign against McGeough and McAnespie and just set them free.
Stefan,
ReplyDeleteA big thanks to MEP Joe Higgins for getting involved. It should be noted that although Owen Patterson, Britain's Secretary of State for the North of Ireland mentions the Diplock Courts, he avoids any reference to whether these men were arraigned before such a court and why, which was the point of the question from MEP Joe Higgins. The 'sub judice' rule which Patterson uses as an excuse to say nothing has no relevance to the question?
Helen it is good to hear that a chink of light is begining to show through the dark blanket that the psf and their erstwhile comrades in prefidious Albion and the lackeys of the 26 counties have used to smother and stiffle any dissent, it is people like yourself and your steely determination that will bring down this unjust and stinking edifice that passes for justice here,keep up the good work my girl your a jem,
ReplyDeleteMartyDownUnder
ReplyDelete"coincidentally I was looking through an old copy of An Glór Gafa this morning, came across a piece about Gerry standing trial in Freiburg, here we are more than twenty years later and he's in court again only this time I doubt you'll see the case in The Republican News (if it's still going). As Marty says the only reason he's there is didn't toe the line".
That’s correct MDU. What I find really infuriating is if McGeough had been killed in action during the troubles, psf would be planting flowers on his grave every year and reminding everyone what a great soldier he was and how he gave his life for a re-united Ireland. However, he survived the troubles and sincerely tried to work alongside of psf to the best of his ability. However, he also had the courage to move on when he was no longer in agreement with them politically. Gerry is on trial because of his political differences with them and his anti-PSNI stance. Regardless of whether Gerry would have won a seat during the 2007 elections is really not the point. He was a Provo and a voice to reckon with. They didn’t like it. After all, one of their own (so to speak) going against the status-quo who couldn’t be bought and has integrity...they couldn’t tolerate it. So how do they get rid of him? They hand him over to the Brits to deal with and sit back and let it all go down until the man is financially broken or dies of a heart attack from the stress and frustration of the injustice of it all. Another point: With this case hanging over Gerry’s head, he certainly can’t run in the 2011 election now can he? Another voice of Irish republicanism silenced…for now.
Helen,
ReplyDelete'With this case hanging over Gerry’s head, he certainly can’t run in the 2011 election now can he?'
Why not? I would have thought it the ideal thing to do to bring this injustice to the attention of the world.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"But i will always say what i believe is the truth Last week mr mcgeogh was made chief
wizard of the a.o.h- the hibs in tyrone- gerry mcgeogh stated in the local papers that he still supported the peace process- yet there are some who think that gerry”.does not toe the line- the truth always comes out- if you want to see it thats another matter".
Yes, Gerry was elected President of the AOH in Tyrone and is there something wrong with that michaelhenry? Because Gerry stated he "supports peace" that means what exactly? You and your “McGeough toes the line" nonsense is getting old. The only one here who seems to "toe the line" is you and your psf “ wanna-be buddies”. McGeough stepped up to the plate during the troubles and after the troubles. You sit around praising the failures of psf and when they tell you to “jump” you ask “how high"?
Helen,
ReplyDeleteI'll write regarding Gerry's case to the local Irish Echo, they have been favorable in the past and certainly are not betiding to SF.
Just out of interest which organization were you apart of Noraid or FOIF? No doubt it too was brought under the leash of Friends of Sinn Fein like what happened the very successful wee group we had set up here. There is now NO republican grouping in Australia, FOSF if they exist is in name only. Rather than be told what to do we folded, that coupled with the sheer ignorance of SF who saw the Irish Australians as nothing other a chance to squeeze money.
Helen-
ReplyDeleteLike a lot of people Gerry mcgeough
stepped up to the plate and beyond
during the war- you can call it the
brit term if you want
Gerry mcgeough does not cause
Sinn Fein any bother- he never did and never will
mcgeough would have took his seat at stormont if he had of been elected- i hope youself helen and
MartyDownUnder will tell this truth when you write to the papers.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteI know who you are and you're real identity. Gerry has more supporters in Tyrone than you ever will have. Don't play with me. I can expose you in a heart beat, but I won't for now.
MartyDownUnder.
ReplyDeleteMy affilations over the years started with Irish Northern Aid. In 1994, (IRA cease-fire) I started to question where political Sinn Fein was headed? I attened enough Irish-American meetings abroad to know that someting was not right. I was not comfortable with the "feedback" we were getting here in the USA from Joe Cahill or Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. When I attended a final meeting in Belfast with Pat Doherty in 1994, I knew then something was wrong and that the hard-core Irish-Americans who supported Sinn Fein financially for over 30 years was being compromised and lied to.
Besides being a member of INA I was also the President of the Irish American Unity Confernce in north Jersey for two years and the Regional Political Director for the IAUC in the state of New Jersey.
However, when myself and a friend from Tyrone, Owen Rodgers, paid to have British Captain Fred Holroyd brough over to the USA to testify in Congress and on radio, TV and print about the "dirty-tricks" of the Brithsh gov't in NI and the collusion of both the Irish and British gov't in NI, I was suspended from my position as Regional Political Director in NJ for bringing over Holyrod to confirm what we all knew to begin with was the truth. Captain Holyrod was a success in the USA and his honesty and integrity helped to convince the USA Congress to take a firmer stand on Irish issues which they had ignored prior to his visit.
In 1997 I stepped away from PSF and started to support FOIF and another excellent Irish republican organization called The Fenians.
I have been involved in "Irish issues" for 30 years and will continue to do so until there is a re-united Ireland or I'm dead. End of story.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"Gerry mcgeough does not cause
Sinn Fein any bother- he never did and never will
mcgeough would have took his seat at stormont if he had of been elected- i hope youself helen and
MartyDownUnder will tell this truth when you write to the papers".
I beg to differ with you mh. Apparently McGeough bothers SF more than they or you would like to admit. Otherwise he wouldn't be on trial for the exact same "infractions" as everyone in SF has been a part of during the troubles.
You talk a lot of "shite" about McGeough and I'm starting to believe you are actually a SF councillor from Tyrone playing everyone on this site with your inmature and nonsencial posts.
Helen-
ReplyDeleteSo even you now support those that would take their seats in stormont
[ if elected ]
Immature and nonsencial posts-
to you maybe if you do not like the truth-
A S.F councillor now- suppose its better than being called a yank
I have nerver hid my views from any-one on the Quill
Helen,
ReplyDeleteMichaelhenry is Michaelhenry. He is a valued contributer here and to suggest he is something other than he is seems gratuitous. He has never hid his views from anybody and should not face this accusation because his views don't chime.
Graycrow:
ReplyDelete"I can't remember the last time I heard the Gerry McGeogh case being mentioned in the Free State media, so I imagine that the silence further abroad is deafening"
It was in the beginning. In the first year of the “freegerry”campaign it was easy to get a "letter to the editor" published in the Irish Echo and Irish Voice highlighting Gerry’s arrest. However, as Gerry’s case became more convoluted, neither the Echo nor the Voice would cover the story and all letters to the editor about McGeough were no longer being published. It then made it necessary for me to purchase “print space” in both papers in order to keep highlighting the injustice of his case/trial. So much for “unbiased” media reporting. I then started the “freegerry.com” website and started to advertise its existence to draw attention to the case.
I reached out to such organizations as Irish Northern Aid, the Irish American Unity Conference, The Brehon Law Society and even the National President of the AOH at that time. All my letters and emails fell on deaf ears. I even reached out to Friends of Sinn Fein-USA and they did nothing. The irony today with these groups is that when the government indicted McGeough for “gun running” in the USA back in the early 90’s, (I co-chaired the Gerry McGeough Defense Fund Committee then too) every one of these organizations did what they could to help him at the time. In fact, the two attorneys who served on the committee back then became officers of Friends of Sinn Fein USA.
So, what doesn’t make sense to me now is that it was okay to support an alleged “IRA gun runner” back then, but it is not okay today to help that same man, who tried to work through the political process since the GFA; and found himself arrested on politically motivated charges because he put himself forward as a candidate against SF’s vote in the 2007 election to support the PSNI? I find that mind boggling.
However, due to such wonderful sites as The Pensive Quill, Organized Rage, Saoirse 32, Friends of Irish Freedom, Political World, Radio Free Eireann-USA, Slugger O’Toole, IRNU and various non-Irish blog sites, the word started to spread. Facebook actually kicked it up a notch and helped to bring together Irish and non-Irish supporters from all over the world. Then media outlets like The Irish News, Sunday Tribune, Tyrone Times, The Guardian, etc., started covering more of the case/trial. However, special kudos to Suzanne Breen and the Sunday Tribune for taking the lead on getting Gerry’s story out to the public on a consistent basis. She is a fine reporter with no agenda. As for the “free state” papers? What has changed? They are more comfortable dealing with denial than having to deal with anything Irish republican in the north.
Graycrow, I am now happy to say that Irish-America is starting to wake up to the on-going persecution of McGeough and McAnespie. More and more people are reaching out individually to support Gerry and his family and more and more people are starting to ask why? And, where is PSF in all of this? The Irish Echo actually published my letter to them about Gerry in last week’s edition. Members of Irish Northern Aid have reached out asking how they can now help? Various divisions of the AOH here and abroad are taking a more active role in support for Gerry. So the media wall of silence surrounding this 4 year injustice has been broken. I want thank each and every person who had the courage to stand up and get the word out about McGeough when it was not popular to do so. Keep up the great work you are all doing in the name of justice.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'A S.F councillor now- suppose its better than being called a yank'
That is debateable!
When you see how they have let Gerry McGeough, (and others), down, I would rather be called a 'Yank'than a Sinn Féiner.
Isn't it funny how the insults come out when they see that the emperor has no clothes!
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteSniffing the glue again in Tyrone are ya? Who said anything about "taking seats?" "Supporting those who do?" You are off the wall at times and you never fail to take someone else's statement or comments and spin them totally out of context and then re-write what they said in order to suit your own agenda. Are you sure you're not a PSF councillor?
"Helen,Michaelhenry is Michaelhenry. He is a valued contributer here and to suggest he is something other than he is seems gratuitous. He has never hid his views from anybody and should not face this accusation because his views don't chime."
ReplyDeleteAM,
Stand corrected. You are right. My temper gets the better of me sometimes.
Helen-
ReplyDeleteI like to sniff at the facts but not at your glue- gerry mcgeough
stated that he would take his seat at stormont if he was elected-
John mcGirr and Helen now support this stance- with a few others on here i might add
Maybe its time to come in from the cold- after the elections
Martydownunder
ReplyDelete"I'll write regarding Gerry's case to the local Irish Echo, they have been favorable in the past and certainly are not betiding to SF."
That would be fantastic Martydownunder. By not addressing the media's silence on this issue...we allow them to continue to be selective when it comes to reporting injustice. I send out "updates" on McGeough/McAnespie to the media every chance I get. Once in a while one of them will run with the update. It's like playing the slots...you keep feeding it money and once in a while you will hit! Seriously, though. Graycrow mentioned that the "free state" media has not given very much attention to the McGeough case/trial. Suggestion: Maybe if more supporters wrote to their local newspaper on this issue, they may publish their letter or cover the story in more depth? It's worth a try.
John McGirr
“With this case hanging over Gerry’s head, he certainly can’t run in the 2011 election now can he?”
“Why not? I would have thought it the ideal thing to do to bring this injustice to the attention of the world.”
Honestly John, I’m not quite sure “why not” myself? I remember being told "he couldn't," but I don't recall why right now. I would have to ask again. I’m sure if Gerry could run he would. It’s not so much about winning the election for Gerry as it is about principle. He knows PSF has done a complete turn-around since the GFA and not for the better. His running would certainly help to publicly highlight this injustice, as you suggest. It would also give other Irish republicans, who don’t agree with PSF but are afraid to speak out, a voice.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletemichaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'gerry mcgeough stated that he would take his seat at stormont if he was elected-'
'John mcGirr and ...now support this stance- with a few on here i might add....'
I remember your esteemed leader asking Gerry McGeough if he had an ouija board to contact dead volunteers to see if they would have died for Stormont and the SF sell-out, (an insult he had to publically apologize for).
Maybe you could tell me the source of your knowledge that I back Stormont! Is it telepathy, voodo or what?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteJohn McGirr-
ReplyDeleteYou want to know my source which tells me that you support stormont
That source is you john-
If you support mcgeough, then you support the person who will take his seat at stormont- and rightly so
You and helen want him to stand in
the assembly elections [ stormont ]
on may 5
if you had the chance would you vote mcgeough into stormont
Helen could be his p.r person at stormont-
Antoin,
ReplyDeleteI don't know Joe or anything about him? I was only giving him credit for being one of the only politicians to write a letter to Patterson questioning him on the McGeough/McAnespie diplock court fiasco. As for his track record as a politician I wouldn't know. I don't live in your community therefore you would know best.
Antoin,
ReplyDeleteI don't speak or read Irish unfortunately, so I don't know what your post was about? However, you are always welcome to disagree with me. I can take it just like I can give it out. LOL! P.S. Was that a poem you wrote in Irish? Please translate for me. Thanks.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"if you had the chance would you vote mcgeough into stormont Helen could be his p.r person at stormont"-
At least with McGeough - what you see is what you get unlike Adams and Company. McGeough never sold out and inspite of his politically motivated persecution by the Brits, whom your beloved PSF now suck up to, he continues to speak out and won't be "silenced" regardless of the consequences. I am proud to know McGeough along with other many fine Irish republicans who didn't sell out because it was popular or politically correct to do so. Those are the men and women I admire - not the arse-kissers, decivers and west Brits you are so fond of. Pathetic lot!
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘You want to know my source which tells me that you support stormont
That source is you john-
If you support mcgeough, then you support the person who will take his seat at stormont- and rightly so’
The only election I was referring to was the Free State election, which is to take place, I believe, in February. I believe if he were elected as a TD it would really highlight the injustice against him and the contemptible indifference from Sinn Féin.
John McGirr
ReplyDelete"I believe if he were elected as a TD it would really highlight the injustice against him and the contemptible indifference from Sinn Féin"
"Contemptible indifference from SF" is an understatement John. Again, Pathetic lot. They know McGeough is a thorn in their side and they KNOW he "doesn't take any prisoners"! That is why they run away from their responsibility to correct this terrible miscarriage of justice for McGeough and McAnespie. Cowards.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHelen-
ReplyDeleteMight write a letter to the Irish
echo in the states to say that you
now support those who take their seats at stormont- it should go down well with those hardline american dissidents-
John McGirr-
Glad to see you now support those who take their seats in the dail
1986- what a year
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"Glad to see you now support those who take their seats in the dail
1986- what a year"
WRONG AGAIN! You are full of assumptions, what was that about NEVER assume anything....!
I suggested that GMcG should stand, not that he should take his seat, in that route lies the treachery of PSF!
John McGirr & Antoin:
ReplyDeleteYou both inquired about McGeough running in the 2011 election.
I spoke to Gerry about it today and he told me because he is out on bail he would need "permission" from the RUC to go South even just to get petrol or stay there for just a few hours.
He also knows that a political campaign would not receive the go ahead, bearing in mind
that the last time he stood he was arrested for doing so!
However, he did say that the next time he stands in an election, it will be in his own area and he will win by a landslide, according
to feedback he's received from the local community.
He asked me to send all of you his best wishes and many thanks for your support.
michaelhenry:
ReplyDelete"Might write a letter to the Irish
echo in the states to say that you
now support those who take their seats at stormont- it should go down well with those hardline american dissidents"
What you call "American dissidents" we call "free thinkers!" As for writing to the Echo...go for it. You see michaelhenry, I don't take my marching orders from anyone,here or abroad, so it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks about my politics. Those who know me would see through anything you could possible say about me anyway. As for the rest, so be it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHelen,
ReplyDeleteI raised the McGeough trial along with other relevant issues such as the non socialist-media coverage of Donnelly's hunger strike back in march at a Branch meeting of the Communist Party of Britain addressing the historical perspectives of Ireland.I might aswell have been someone walking in from another planet.Wether this small group of supposedly progressive intellectuals actually was completely ignorant of the facts or wether they were choosing to deliberately ignore the issues I still don't know to this day as I was politely told by the then Branch chair (who now evidently has quit) to cut communications from the party over my veiws on various issues including Irish Republicanism.
I rely this to you just to give you some idea of the ignorance prevelant outside of Ireland on these issues.
Helen,
ReplyDelete'He asked me to send all of you his best wishes and many thanks for your support.'
Thanks, Helen. I'm sorry he won't be standing, but I understand why not.
Sinn Féin are going to lose a lot of support in Tyrone over this, (even their voters despise them).
John McGirr-
ReplyDelete" even Sinn Fein voters despise
them " this is a new one
But how many people despise those
who john supports
plenty of elections this year to
see who is despise'd
'But how many people despise those
ReplyDeletewho john supports'
Not sure what you mean here, do you care to elaborate?
'plenty of elections this year to
see who is despise'd'
Any thoughts independant Republicans might have had of standing in British elections were well and truly scuppered by the collusion between PSF and their puppet masters in the treatment of Gerry McGeough.
Don't be mislead by the results. Are you not aware that PSF is now supported in the main, by former Stoops? You have become the SDLP and left Republicans with no political voice, (a dangerous thing to do in the light of history).
Power without principles is pointless.
John McGirr-
ReplyDelete" but how many people despise those
who john supports "
Well you never say who you support
so i don't know if you are a loner
in politics- i don't know if you
support r.s.f taking their seats in
the 26 county councils or eirigi
members taking their seats in the six countys
I can't help it if some are now to
scared to stand for elections or do election work for what you term
independent republicans-
Sinn Fein members stood for elections and did election work when their members were being shot
and killed- somthing which none of the dissident political groups had to worry about- would make you think.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'Sinn Fein members stood for elections and did election work when their members were being shot
and killed...'
Do you really think today's Sinn Féin is the same party??
They have turned their back on everything they once stood for!
MichaelHenry,
ReplyDelete'eirigi has just said that they are
going to stand for local elections
in the six county's only'
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2011/jan/30/ex-ira-man-to-stand-against-sinn-fein-in-election/
I know who i'd be backing in this election, Chopper is a true gentleman and committed Republican Socialist, this is only the start, the tide may be about to turn Michael!
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteIts the same movement-political
organisation to me- i can't speak
for what any-body else might think
there is no thanks with-in no slaps on the shoulder-
There are a lot of dissidents about who were never in the movement, but anyone who did leave
either stayed on there lone-some
or joined a group with a differend name like r.s.f, fianna fail or the
32 county-
Its like those that left the catholic faith over the century's
they started up new religion's with
new name's.
John McGirr
ReplyDelete"Sinn Féin are going to lose a lot of support in Tyrone over this, (even their voters despise them)."
I agree John.
I receive a good amount of emails from republicans who are from the Tyrone area who support PSF and they tell me how "disgusted" they are with the McGeough/McAnespie situation and the fact SF remains silent on this controversial case/trial. They say they are not happy and do not intend to vote PSF this time around? Seriously, I think it would be a good thing for PSF to suffer a severe upset in the 2011 elections – how else do you get politicians to LISTEN?
This past November's elections in the states sort of brings that point home. Voters across both party lines were fed up with the majority of those in office. Voters in general had enough with the Democrats who had taken control of the Congress and Senate when Obama was elected President. While in power they had become arrogant, disconnected from the people, and refused to listen to what the voters wanted (same for Republicans during Bush era). When the majority of the Congress and Senate seats were up for re-election in 2010, their own die-hard followers voted a good number of the incumbents out of office. In my opinion, the majority of politicians, regardless of whether they are Democrats or Republicans, are pretty much tarred and feathered with the same brush. But my point here is that the Dems took for granted that they were the “winning party, they were in control of the Congress and Senate at the time, and they just assumed it would be another landslide for their side again. Didn’t happen. What made it most interesting was that voters actually crossed party-lines to send a loud strong message to Washington – “We’ve had enough.” Voters in the north have the same option.
I never quite understood why people vote party and not person to begin with? I understand politics in the north of Ireland is a bit different than the states, but how do you force change within a political party unless you vote them out? I can never understand the psyche of some voters, who admit that the person running for office is not the most qualified person for the position, but they vote for him/her anyway BECAUSE of party affiliation? In other words, because they have been Democrats or Republicans their entire life and their families before them…they vote Democrat/Republican strictly for that reason alone? In my opinion, that’s how half these idiots get into office and stay in office. Unfortunately, politicians count on the fact that people are more loyal to a political party than they are to themselves, so they play on that and the only losers in the end are the taxpayers/voters.
Helen,
ReplyDeleteThe six counties is unique in it's tribalism, people vote either green or orange depending on their background, just to keep the orangie or taig out. Donald Duck could stand for SF and he'd get voted in. I have faith that people will see through the shower they've voted in for what they are though.
MartyDownUnder-
ReplyDeleteSounds like you will support the 6
county eirigi stoops over a 32 county Irish party- what-ever rocks your boat
During the war none of us ever read
of a suzanne breen headline calling on the brit army to leave
neither will she ever call eirigi
partitionist-time to catch on.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of PSF, just wondered your opinion on A) Derry being the United Kingdom Capital of Culture, and B) The ending of the 'Bloody Sunday' March?
I would ask a local Shinner but they are as rare as hens' teeth in these parts.
Sorry if you have answered these questions before, but I haven't seen it, and would like to know what the average Shinner thinks about them.
Michael, don't know what they put in those bottles of Only Our Rivers Run Free but i really don't know what your on about éirígí be partitionist? I think you'll find they are organized across the island. Bit rich when your own party is up in the big house administering British rule. Also don't recall anyone from éirígí calling on people to tout to the peelers like Caral Ni Chuilin did in Ardoyne last week.
ReplyDeleteIf yous are running the place for the Brits in your wee puppet assembly and recognize the British police force, who's partitionist? In other words, if it looks like shite and smells like it...
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteDerry being a united kingdom capital of culture but not a british one- wee buns
i know- its a fine line
it will be called Derry not the brit title
The ending of the bloody sunday march- im in two minds,
if most familys want it do stop then they will stop- but if other familys want to continue then it is up to them to continue and nobody will or should stop them-
I think that the other weekend events which take place are still going to go ahead next year.
MartyDownUnder-
ReplyDeleteSinn Fein is an all Ireland political party because they stand for elections in Irelands 32
eirigi stoops are partitionist
because they do what the brits want and only stand in the six
countys- they are that yellow that they will not even stand in 3 of ulsters countys
onh have never killed a cop or brit in their 5 years, you can support them if you want but brit lovers don't fool me.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'onh have never killed a cop or brit in their 5 years, you can support them if you want but brit lovers don't fool me.'
That is possibly the most inane comment that I have seen since I have been reading the PQ.
Berating a group for not killing Brits in the same period you oppose killing Brits! And concluding that their lack of killing Brits makes them 'Brit lovers!'
By your logic, you are a Brit lover!
Michael,
ReplyDeleteNot sure where Óglaigh na hÉireann came into it, I never mentioned them, are you saying they're the armed wing of éirígí? News to me and I'd say them too! You wouldn't be trying to avoid what the SF MLA for Ardoyne said last week?
As for éirígí not contesting elections in the south you'd better ask them as I don't speak for them. I do however support Paddy McCotter standing in the council elections, only for the fact that the people of West Belfast may get decent representation for a change.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteI supported a movement which killed
hundreds of armed brits- even after when a few give up in 1986
When did i oppose the killing of the armed brit
MartyDownUnder-
That m.l.a from ardoyne was responding to what onh was at- thought you knew
You can support the partitionist ones all you want- thats your business- you got a postal vote old hand
John,
ReplyDelete'That is possibly the most inane comment that I have seen since I have been reading the PQ.'
It's not the first time he's said it, one of his favorites as he keeps bringing it up. Bizarre indeed...
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'I supported a movement which killed
hundreds of armed brits'
What were today's volunteers doing, (the ones who were born), swapping knitting patterns?
'When did i oppose the killing of the armed brit'
If you support the so-called GFA then you have agreed that they have a right here, hence they are not an army of occupation, so their presence is legitimate. Or did you neglect to read the small-print?
John McGirr:
ReplyDelete"If you support the so-called GFA then you have agreed that they have a right here, hence they are not an army of occupation, so their presence is legitimate. Or did you neglect to read the small-print?"
Touche John. You hit the nail right on the head!
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteTo-day's volunteers- whos that
are you going to get of your army pot and say who you support
There are no small words in the good friday agreement [ which i support ]
but maybe there is small minds who never read what the people of the 32 voted yes for
Helen- ditto
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteIf you accept
"the reduction of the numbers and role of the Armed Forces deployed
in Northern Ireland to levels compatible with a normal peaceful society;"
then you are agreeing to a British military presence.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteYou are still on about what was wrote in the good friday agreement
before the 1998 election to endorse it [ 32 vote ]
Compatible with a normal peaceful
society is a society free from those subjects who are opposed to
equality [ brit army and those others ]
Are you looking for the map to the
Republic to be drawn out for you.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteTo quote Anthony;
'it just gets more abstract and devoid of meaning'
Yes I was quoting the agreement that accepts the British army is to stay in the Six Counties, the Agreement you told me you backed, the SELL OUT that a number of British agents infiltrated the Republican Movement to impose under threat of terrible consequences if it were not accepted. It always reminded me of a shotgun wedding, ie., devoid of all legality.
But don't tell me you can endorse the British military presence and then complain that they are not being shot, because people like you jumped ship, changed sides and are now the PROBLEM here and not the solution.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteBoo-whoo terrible consequences
what was that then- you sound like
that collins fcuk in 1922
The crown could not stop the tonne
attacks on there citys- they are only the brits you know
You give some hardline advice- but thats all it is - cheap talk
Your pretend solution would oppose
what the 32 Irish voted yes to.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘…you sound like
that collins fcuk in 1922’
Is that the same Collins whose picture is in the Stormont offices of British Sinn Féin?
Have you not yet realised that PSF have rehabilitated him. You need to be re-programmed!
‘You give some hardline advice- but thats all it is - cheap talk’
Where have I given any advice, hard-line or otherwise? (I won’t hold my breath while you find it, because I have noticed your practice of ignoring what you can’t substantiate.)
‘Your pretend solution would oppose
what the 32 Irish voted yes to.’
So a United Ireland would oppose your wishes? Oh yes, I forgot, you back an ‘International Agreement’ that makes a United Ireland impossible even if the British government wanted to impose it.
You have given a minority a veto over national self-determination.
You were sold a lie. The Irish people have never endorsed that lie.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteI don't want to embarrass you again
but i will-
Thats not a picture of michael collins in 1 of the Sinn Fein offices at stormont- its a poster of the film about his life and death- good film good ending, the
RA shot collins at the end
The 32 county Irish voted yes to the good friday agreement in 1998
is this a problem to you.
Michaelhenry
ReplyDelete"Your pretend solution would oppose
what the 32 Irish voted yes to."
The majority in the south also voted yes to the Lisbon Treaty and now they are on the balls of their arse.
To begin with, the majority in the south never gave a damn about what was going on in the north except to make sure it NEVER touched any of them!
Why wouldn't they have voted the way they did MH? They had nothing to lose except their self-respect. This is WHY the Brits win every time!
Explain exactly what has been accomplished by the GFA and PSF in the last 13 years? Maybe I'm missing something here, but all I can see is that PSF sold their souls to the devil for very little in return for their supporters and constituents. From what I understand, the only one’s now riding the “gravy train” are PSF and their lackeys!
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘Thats not a picture of michael collins in 1 of the Sinn Fein offices at stormont- its a poster of the film about his life and death’-
I am glad you confirmed that there is a picture of Michael Collins in Sinn Féin's office in Stormont. I just remember seeing one when your police colleagues were clearing the office, at the time of Denis Donaldson, remember him. ;)
If it is the same one, (strange that you would be advertising a film years after it came out), it would be like me having a picture of the Satan on my wall, defending it by saying Christ overcame him.
Maybe that is why they carry three books about him on their official website, one stating;
“... the life of a man who became a legend in his own lifetime, whose idealistic vigour and determination were matched only by his political and organisational abilities.”
Before you use the excuse that it is of historical interest, well, I might believe you; when I see books about Ruarai O'Bradaigh or Brendan Hughes.
‘good film good ending, the
RA shot collins at the end’
Justice meted out by ‘dissidents’.
‘The 32 county Irish voted yes to the good friday agreement in 1998’
Only the 6 Counties were asked if they accepted the Sell-Out.
I guess if you only get your information from films, that one hasn’t come out yet.
PS, I hope it has a ‘good ending’ when it does!
John,
ReplyDelete"The Irish people have never endorsed that lie."
Even allowing for those that did not vote in 1998, majorities on both sides of the border did endorse the Belfast Agreement. Of course, these votes occurred within the partitionist framework, but the result does suggest that more Irish people support the agreement than an armed struggle to end partition. I'm not a big fan of the agreement, and perhaps most people across the island would prefer a united country, but do you really think it is right or even reasonable to continue to fight a war against British forces (many of whom are Irish men and women) when the vast majority of Irish people oppose such a war? Was a united Ireland brought any closer by crippling Peadar Heffron?
MichaelHenry,
ReplyDeleteFail to see what the difference is between a poster of the glamorized Hollywood Collins and a picture of the real one, still means the same thing when he's hanging on the shinners wall. They're claiming him as one of their own now, the prototype provo.
I thought I'd speak up in support of Michael Collins. I know nobody needs a history lesson but this is just my viewpoint:
ReplyDeleteHe had no option but to accept the Treaty. It was a fait accompli. Most Republicans at the time thought that the border was temporary. Collins said that "the North would be forced economically to come in".
As for the oath to the Crown, Collins recommended not agreeing to it but accepted when Lloyd George promised changes to the border. With less land under the Northern government it would be even less economically viable.
The Boundary Commission's advice was to give some majority Nationalist areas to the Free State and some majority Unionist areas to the North. This was ignored. Collins was horrified by the certainty of more pogroms. He told Churchill "The Nationalist strongholds of County Fermanagh, County Tyrone, Derry City, as well as several urban and rural districts, will go and completely anti-Catholic juntas will reign in their place. You will agree, I am sure, that nothing could be more detrimental to the cause of peace."
As Michael Collins said of the Treaty "We are not committed until both the Dail and Westminster ratify whatever agreement is made".
De Valera told a French newspaper two years before the Treaty that he would accept Partition and Dominion status.
The IRA was weak and running dangerously low on supplies/equipment prior to the Treaty. Collins was in a lose-lose situation. They all were.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete"The Irish people have never endorsed that lie."
‘Even allowing for those that did not vote in 1998, majorities on both sides of the border did endorse the Belfast Agreement.’
One British state endorsed it, under the dishonest pretext of voting ‘yes’ for peace. The other British state wasn’t even given that option. They voted on modifying their constitution and dropping their claim to the Six Counties.
‘Of course, these votes occurred within the partitionist framework,’
A good reason to reject them.
‘but the result does suggest that more Irish people support the agreement than an armed struggle to end partition.’
I don’t believe in suicide on an individual basis, or a national basis.
‘…but do you really think it is right or even reasonable to continue to fight a war against British forces (many of whom are Irish men and women) when the vast majority of Irish people oppose such a war?
I believe it is right and reasonable, however without a degree of support, not ultimately successful. The blame for that, in my view, lies with those who withhold their support.
‘Was a united Ireland brought any closer by crippling Peadar Heffron?’
He was wrong to join the police, but the really guilty ones are those who legitimised and encouraged his actions. It is unlikely that this will, in itself, bring a united Ireland closer.
On a personal basis, I have great sympathy for him and his family, but I hope it makes young Irish men think before joining the British police.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteYou said there was a picture of
michael collins in 1 of the
Sinn Fein offices at stormont-
i proved to you there was not
no picture- no argument
MartyDownUnder- ditto
Helen-
I have put my stalls out several
times in the past on the Quill and
will do so in the future- but surly
you can name 1 armed group who you
support- and im not talking about the american army.
On the contrary, I have shown that 'Michael Collins' is on your Stormont walls, and in your SF bookshop.
ReplyDeleteThey haven't much respect for you if they tell you lies about ony having that picture up for the film.
Ask them about the books they sell and why they lavish such praise on the man whom you regard as a tratior.
By the way, I agree with you on him being a traitor, so we do have something in common.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteYou keep asking people things like 'what armed group do you support?'
It is okay for you because your armed group has less arms than the Salvation Army and is now only of interest to historians.
It could be problematic for others to answer such a question.
MichaelHenry,
ReplyDeleteI get you now, they only have the poster up as they like the film not the character portrayed within? Sure they could've stuck a Jaws poster or something up
Michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"but surly you can name 1 armed group who you support- and im not talking about the american army."
I supported the IRA during the troubles and I supported PSF up until the Stormont Agreement.
I feel very sad that any young man or women today would give their life for a united Ireland. The cards are stacked against them and PSF and the Brits made sure of that. The only way forward now is through the political process. HOWEVER, those currently in control of that process are not stepping up to the plate. In fact, they have become part of the problem.
It appears from the majority of your posts that you would like everyone who disagrees with PSF to admit they must be members or supporters of such organizations as RSF, 32CSM or other groups outside PSF? Is that what you need to hear in order to justify your blind support of PSF? People who don’t care for PSF’s new brand of politics don’t have to be part of any organization to justify their discontent with PSF.
Another thing I don’t understand is that you are constantly asking everyone who disagrees with PSF, “how many Brits did they kill?” or “did they take up arms during the troubles?” which to you seems to give them credibility if they did? Yet Gerry McGeough paid his dues, along with other fine men and women loyal to the cause and PSF during the troubles, yet you did everything in your power to discredit McGeough on Slugger O’Toole and on the TPQ these past 3 1/2 years. Why? (And I’m not talking about McGeough’s religious convictions…I am talking strictly his political views).
If you believe in the democratic process as you stated earlier (“32 county vote for the GFA - the people spoke") then why couldn’t you accept McGeough’s right to run for political office on an anti-PSNI platform? Also, why wouldn’t you protest against his politically motivated arrest? Apparently what’s good for the goose is not good for the gander in your small world of PSF!
Simon,
ReplyDeleteThat is an interesting take. I always felt Collins was not the person who should have been sent to deal with the British government. He was a soldier not a politician.
John McGirr:
ReplyDelete'You keep asking people things like 'what armed group do you support?'
"It could be problematic for others to answer such a question."
Yes, John and michaelhenry knows that and should know better. He asks that question of anyone who doesn't agree with PSF? I'd call those questions "entrapment"
Antoin,
ReplyDelete'An Chaillach Bhearra comes from the Padraig Mac Phiarais poem,mise
eire,wich is as follows'
The poem is sad but true. Do you like poetry Antoin? I notice you quoted several poems on this site. I especially appreciated the part about the 'bold fenian women'
'Helen, i you ever get the time,try and read the murder machine,on line at the celt,a book about the english educational systym in ireland.Trust me,its great.It was written by pearse in 1913.It's the geailic gospel'
Antoin, I have added it to my list of 'must reads' thank you for the information.
Helen, You're probably right. Although Collins had Arthur Griffith with him, the British were more seasoned politicians, used to negotiation and diplomacy although always with the threat of immediate force.
ReplyDeleteMartydownunder the reason they loved that poster and film could be because the bearded and and his mates loved the line from the film by Collins "go easy on the riddling boys" suited the bearded one and that other wanker Mc Guinness who had surrendered in Derry years before the bearded one sold out!yip go easy on the riddling boys but keep pissing on the peoples backs and tell them its raining !
ReplyDeleteJohn McGirr-
ReplyDeleteGlad we agree on some-thing
collins- de valera- both are buried
outside of Republican plots,
says it all
The salvation army has killed the
same number of brit soldiers as the
continuity- none
i can't see that fact being to
problematic.
Marty-
Notice that you now think that belfast was more hardline than derry- any facts old hand
MartyDownUnder-
ReplyDeleteA jaws poster or a poster about
collins- in both films the hero's
killed the baddies at the end.
Helen-
You have no problem saying that you
supported the IRA during the war-
but you think if you support another armed group during peace it would be entrapment,
Mcgeough stood on a anti- psni
platform as is his right
but he also stood on a pro- Garda
platform- his republican position.
John,
ReplyDeleteObviously both electorates North and South did not have the same propositon placed before them in 1998, but it would be wrong to say that the South was not endorsing the Belfast Agreement with its vote to change Articles 2 & 3 of the Republic's constitution.
"The other British state wasn’t even given that option. They voted on modifying their constitution and dropping their claim to the Six Counties."
I suppose you could say that Southern people abandoned nationalists in the North by accepting dominion status in 1922, but do you really think the Republic is still a British state? I was lucky enough to be born in the Republic - the current crisis aside - and I don't consider my state British.
Of course, by endorsing the Belfast Agreement, we allowed a unionist veto to prevent a united Ireland, but given that the partitionist arrangement has existed for about 90 years and that the majority of people North and South accept it, the opportunity for a viable armed campaign against partition has passed. The RIRA or the CIRA killing a handful of British police or soldiers every couple of years won't change that. Those who oppose the Northern state are a hated minority; perhaps the current financial crisis presents an opportunity to change that, but it can only be through peaceful means. There is just no appetite for war anymore.
"I don’t believe in suicide on an individual basis, or a national basis. ... I believe it [an armed campaign] is right and reasonable, however without a degree of support, not ultimately successful. The blame for that, in my view, lies with those who withhold their support."
But don't people have a right to accept partition if they choose? I mean, if a clear majority of people in the Republic voted to become part of the UK again, I would not like it, and I would campaign (peacefully!) to have it reversed, but I would have to respect the nation's decision. Furthermore, given that harsh British repression is a thing of the past, the only justification for an armed campaign against British forces in Ireland would be if a majority of people on the island were actively demanding a united Ireland and were prepared to go to war to achieve it. I can't see that happening any time soon, but even if it did, would a united Ireland be worth the terrible cost in human suffering of such a war? I really don't know.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMickeyboy when I mentioned Derry I meant the city,where Mc Guinness held the main say,and not the south Derry brigade who equated themselves imo well,I know its a well kept secret that bombing and shooting within Derry city was minimal in the late 80,s and early 90.s maybe because Martyboys inlaws had aquired a number of business,s in the city and his cronies were turning to profit before people,Belfast would not have been any more hardline but was run down at a slower rate mo cara maybe due to the larger size of the city and the ongoing secterian strife within the city,
ReplyDeleteMichaelhenry,
ReplyDelete(jut noticed your reply)
‘Derry being a united kingdom capital of culture but not a british one’-
Is it still going to host the ‘Brit Awards?’
‘it will be called Derry not the brit title’
Not true, it is called Derry-Londonderry in its application, in its acceptance and on its official website. The website lists the Apprentice Boys as its first ‘cultural organization.’
I guess commemorating mass murder on its streets will not be conducive to its new found role of celebration of all things British.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'Mcgeough stood on a anti- psni
platform as is his right
but he also stood on a pro- Garda
platform- his republican position.'
IF this is true, he must be half as bad as PSF who back them both.
Do you back these two organizations, or are you a dissident?
Michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete"You have no problem saying that you supported the IRA during the war-but you think if you support another armed group during peace it would be entrapment",
That is NOT what I said. Re-read my post and TRY TO COMPREHEND IT.
You keep asking people things like 'what armed group do you support?
John McGirr said..."It could be problematic for others to answer such a question."
My reply was: Yes, John and michaelhenry knows that and should know better. He asks that question of anyone who doesn't agree with PSF? I'd call those QUESTIONS "entrapment."
Once again you deliberately twist words and take statements out of context when you are trying to avoid the issue or the facts. I'm not the only one you do it to. You fool no one by doing so. It only suffices to reinsure me that you are just playing head-games with some of us on here about PSF and you can’t be taken seriously.
BTW…You also totally avoided answering the following questions. Let me repeat them in case you didn’t understand the questions to begin with:
1) I don’t understand why you are constantly asking everyone, who disagrees with PSF, “how many Brits did they kill” or “did they take up arms during the troubles?” However, Gerry McGeough paid his dues, along with other fine men and women loyal to the cause and PSF during the troubles, yet you did everything in your power to discredit McGeough on Slugger O’Toole and on the TPQ these past 3 1/2 years. Why? Answer the question.
2) If you believe in the democratic process as you stated earlier than why wouldn’t you protest or speak out against his politically motivated arrest? Answer the question.
What troubles me about you, michaelhenry, is that you spew a lot of shite about McGeough but you have also remained totally SILENT with regard to the injustice of McAnespie’s case/trial as well? My understanding is that he supports PSF so why the silence regarding him? To me it's just another example of how PSF are selective in who they ‘look after’ and you are too.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteYou keep going on about supporting a movement that killed
hundreds of Brits etc. Did you do any fighting yourself - especially in the early 90's?
Micheal Henry,
ReplyDelete"Derry being a united kingdom capital of culture but not a british one- wee buns
i know- its a fine line"
This is stuff of Orwellian doublethink proportions. What happened to you, Michael? You were a republican once, weren't you?
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteThey are called the apprentice boys
of derry
I support policing in Irelands 32
Helen- you asked
" did you do any fighting yourself
especially in the early 90s "
Sounds like intrapment lol
Im a person not a movement
could've told u all about it gerry boy. but why expect anything else
ReplyDeletewith me it was simple. if i stood in election my legs would be blown off so i wouldnt stand again ...and or taken to south armagh (the last bogey man) to be interrogated. of course my electoral campaigns were bank rolled by british intelligence and not from the credit union.
it happens here and it happens there...it happens almost everywhere, it's just WHO does it that really matters...and who tells them to do it.
nixy
Alfie,
ReplyDelete"Furthermore, given that harsh British repression is a thing of the past"
It may not be as harsh Alfie, but the reality is that the British government lackeys (RUC) are still targeting Irish republicans at whim. The British government refuses to prosecute those responsible for the murder of Pat Finucane, Esq. Victims of the Bloody Sunday massacre. Dublin-Monaghan bombings, etc., etc. In the interim, they continue with diplock courts in the north and politically motivated trials. I wouldn't exactly give the Brits a pat on the back for being "less harsh". They just aren’t as obvious about it now. Besides, they don’t have to be with PSF carrying out some of their dirty deeds for them and the mainstream media being selective on what they report.
How easy it is for some to put the past behind them when they were not victims of the British government.
John McGirr,
ReplyDeleteMcGeough and the Garda? As usual, michaelhenry will say "anything" to discredit McGeough. It's all part of the PSF mentality. If they can't beat you, they try to destroy your credibility in general. Brendan Hughes is a prime example of PSF's twisted and ruthless attacks on him when he spoke the truth.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteCop out again. If you refuse to answer the question then don't be asking others if they "killed Brits" or "were part of the armed struggle".
Helen,
ReplyDelete"How easy it is for some to put the past behind them when they were not victims of the British government."
True, I wasn't alive for a lot of the Troubles and so I don't have too much difficulty putting the past behind me, but the families of the hundreds of civilians that the PIRA killed might. You won't be writing any articles about their plight though, will you?
Helen,
ReplyDelete'McGeough and the Garda? As usual, michaelhenry will say "anything" to discredit McGeough. It's all part of the PSF mentality. If they can't beat you, they try to destroy your credibility in general. Brendan Hughes is a prime example of PSF's twisted and ruthless attacks on him when he spoke the truth.'
I know, Helen, I take such claims with a pinch of salt. I know that Gerry McGeough did not advocate that in his electoral manifesto.
It is such a shame to see a wonderful movement inflitrated by the Brits and turning on real Republicans.
Antoin Mac C,
ReplyDelete'John McGirr-Im slightly sorry for being rude and obnoxious,i type before i think sometimes.I really didn't mean anything personal.Bron mor.Tir gan teanga,tir gan anam
{agreed},reiligon{i'm taken the fifth from now on}Bron aris.'
If I have offended I am sorry myself, likewise I sometimes type first.... I don't expect you not to comment on religion. Some very evil things have happened and they need to be exposed. I am all for exposing the evil, but just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
If I have annoyed you or others on here, tá brón orm me féin, and that even includes Larry and MichaelHenry, lol.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete‘Those who oppose the Northern state are a hated minority;…’
Sometimes it is good to be in a minority, hated or otherwise.
‘There is just no appetite for war anymore.’
Is there ever much ‘appetite for war’?
‘But don't people have a right to accept partition if they choose?’
No, unless they are traitors to their country.
‘I mean, if a clear majority of people in the Republic voted to become part of the UK again, I would not like it, and I would campaign (peacefully!) to have it reversed, but I would have to respect the nation's decision.’
That is where we differ. I would give it no such respect. That is the national suicide I reject.
‘Furthermore, given that harsh British repression is a thing of the past,…’
I disagree, it has just got more subtle. It is only ‘in the past’ if you accept the current situation. If not, it is very much in the present.
‘the only justification for an armed campaign against British forces in Ireland would be if a majority of people on the island were actively demanding a united Ireland and were prepared to go to war to achieve it.’
I’m not sure a majority of people anywhere would vote for war. I go with the men of 1916:
“In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.”
‘I can't see that happening any time soon, but even if it did, would a united Ireland be worth the terrible cost in human suffering of such a war?’
Yes. If it were in the spirit of the men of 1916.
John McGirr:
ReplyDelete'It is such a shame to see a wonderful movement inflitrated by the Brits and turning on real Republicans'
I agree. It's now up to the people to take that movement back, politically, by voting them out of office.
John,
ReplyDeleteA picture of Michael Collins in Stormont? That would be tantamount to putting a picture of Che in the NYSE.
Must admit, I have seen their offices and I did not see any such picture, unless of course they have him superimposed in the group photo with all the other IRA leaders kowtowing to the Brits.
I think Michael Collins,however history judges him, would look distinctively out of place in the very hub of British rule in the North of Ireland.
Antoin,
missed all the insults don't suppose you could repeat them?
John,
ReplyDelete"Sometimes it is good to be in a minority, hated or otherwise."
I count myself in that minority, though I am fortunate not to suffer because of it.
"That is where we differ. I would give it no such respect. That is the national suicide I reject."
But this island is only a separate nation to Britain if a clear majority of the people on the island decide that we are. I mean, if only a handful of people had wanted an independent Ireland in 1916, then Pearse, Connolly et al would have been wrong to fight. From where does the right to wage war come if not from the people?
Helen-
ReplyDeletecop out- Garda in
Its common knowledge that when
Mcgeough stood in the stormont
elections for a seat that he told
talk-back [ bbc radio ] that he
supported the Garda- thought you knew
You say what you want on the Quill
Helen i will do the same- you think
you are in the thought-less police
You have asked people to vote them
[ Sinn Fein ] out of office-
but you don't say who do vote for
again you are afraid to take sides
Hate all you want but Ireland is loved
Fionnuala-
ReplyDeleteIts been a while since we had words
Do you support the cubans or che
who allowed the american army to stay on cuban soil- it sure sounds like it
Were you up in stormont on a tour
Alfie,
ReplyDelete'From where does the right to wage war come if not from the people?'
As I said in my last post;
“In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom.”
The people are not just those living today, but all who have lived before, many having lived and died for their country.
If a people decide to turn their back on that, they are not a nation at all. While there is even a handful of people who are prepared to stand up for freedom they should be supported.
John,
ReplyDelete"The people are not just those living today, but all who have lived before, many having lived and died for their country."
Sorry, but I think that's daft. I mean, how can we know what the 'dead generations' would have wanted? And even if we could hazard a decent guess, why should the opinions of dead people be given the same democratic weight as those of the living? For instance, what if a majority of the dead generations of Irish people preferred to remain part of the UK? Should the current generation of Irish people be bound by their ancestors' wishes?
"While there is even a handful of people who are prepared to stand up for freedom they should be supported."
You talk about Irish freedom, but if you don't respect the right of today's Irish people to make decisions you might not like, then you must not really believe in it.
michaelhenry.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote;
'Its common knowledge that when
Mcgeough stood in the stormont
elections for a seat that he told
talk-back [ bbc radio ] that he
supported the Garda'
prior to that you said;
'Mcgeough stood on a anti- psni
platform as is his right
but he also stood on a pro- Garda Platform...'
The Talkback you refer to was recorded BEFORE he announced his decision to stand.
He certainly did NOT stand on a 'pro-garda platform' in the election.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete'Believing that the British Government has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland, and never can have any right in Ireland, the presence, in any one generation of Irishmen, of even a respectable minority, ready to die to affirm that truth, makes that Government for ever a usurpation and a crime against human progress.'
Nixy,
ReplyDeletepoint well made. You know it from experience.
John,
ReplyDeleteA loyalist paramilitary might argue:
'Believing that the republican movement has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland, and never can have any right in Ireland, the presence, in any one generation of Irishmen, of even a respectable minority, ready to die to affirm the Union, makes the republican movement for ever a usurpation and a crime against human progress.'
I admire Connolly, but the argument of his that you quoted is unsound.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteWell let's go with this one:
‘You cannot conquer Ireland. You cannot extinguish the Irish passion of freedom. If our deed has not been sufficient to win freedom, then our children will win it by a better deed’.
I pray to God for those to take up his challenge.
John and Alfie,
ReplyDeleteI would love to stick my nose into this one as it is something I have given thought to over the years. But I haven't a minute so unfortunately have to pass. I am trying to catch up with posts from John from four weeks ago. However, I am with Alfie on this one.
It is a good discussion and gives people plenty to think about
I agree Anthony, love these debates I can see this one is well on it's way to having 200+ comments. My question is do we just accept partition then? As a republican find that hard to accept but I do belief armed resistance to it's existence at present is futile.
ReplyDeletemichealhenry,
ReplyDeleteI really do not understand what you are saying in relation to Cuba.
If you are saying the American Army enjoy the same realtionship with the Cuban Government as M15 do with the Stormont Executive, then you are wrong.
America remains in Guantanamo Bay due to some international agreement or other, certainly not at the behest of the government who have always actively opposed their presence.
M15 on the other hand were actively given space to come here and operate on the 'covert human intelligence basis' something to which your party agreed to.
Stormont, no I was invited and was given a tour by the former Sinn Fein administrator
John,
ReplyDeleteWhy are you writing about the opposition to the British in Ireland in exclusively male terms?
Women fought and died in IRA campaigns also.
MartyDownUnder,
ReplyDelete"My question is do we just accept partition then?"
I think we must respect the right of the Irish people to accept partition, but that doesn't mean we should not try to persuade them otherwise.
Martydownunder I look to the declaration of Arbroath as an example to oppose British rule here,I dont really give a f##k how many decide to sell out, my ancestors were forced of their land and my family were never compensated for this theft,so as long as horay Henrys and those who lick their boots occupy this land then I can understand why people refuse to accept any brit imposed treaty,
ReplyDeleteFionnuala,
ReplyDelete'John,
Why are you writing about the opposition to the British in Ireland in exclusively male terms?
Women fought and died in IRA campaigns also.'
I didn't realize that I did, but if I did, I am sorry, it wasn't intended.
John,
ReplyDeleteI know it was not intended, I find what you write very interesting, even when I do not entirely agree with it.
The reason I mentioned it, was because I find it very off putting.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteI've always been of the belief that the majority in the south actually didn't/don't care that a border is running through their country. As for the loyalist majority in the north they are in that position as the drawing of the border insures that they remain as such. So I'm with John on this I don't accept this unionist veto.
John,
ReplyDelete"I pray to God for those to take up his challenge."
Perhaps the 'better deed' that Connolly talks about should be a nonviolent mass movement against partition on both sides of the border. To my mind, such a movement would be more effective and have more legitimacy than a handful of volunteers killing or maiming a PSNI officer every couple of years. There is simply no way of ending partition unless you have a large majority in the Republic and at least a sizeable minority in the North who insist on having a united Ireland.
For the record, I think that Northern Ireland, like Israel, was illegitimately established; however that does not mean I think the North should be disestablished by any means necessary. I also do not believe in the consent principle applying solely to the North, for the island of Ireland was long considered a single country before 1922 (by both its own people and foreigners - even the British) and so the island as a whole should have the right to determine its future. However, a majority on both sides of the border has accepted partition, so I don't believe we can resist the will of the people by force of arms. I mean, how can the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA possibly succeed when the vast majority of the people on this island oppose them? All they will achieve is what the Provos achieved - death and destruction, but on a smaller scale.
MartyDownUnder,
ReplyDelete"I've always been of the belief that the majority in the south actually didn't/don't care that a border is running through their country."
If that is the case, then it is not just a unionist veto preventing a united Ireland - it is a southern veto as well. Such a majority on both sides of the border would have to be respected.
Personally, I think that a majority in the Republic would vote for a united Ireland, but most people here would rather tolerate partition than have a war to end it.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete'I mean, how can the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA possibly succeed when the vast majority of the people on this island oppose them? All they will achieve is what the Provos achieved - death and destruction, but on a smaller scale.'
I belief the current campaign by these groups has more to do with ensuring the state doesn't settle into normality.
'For the record, I think that Northern Ireland, like Israel, was illegitimately established'
I agree the NI state was granted to the unionists under threat of violence, which the British were all to willing to concede to them. Which is why I do not agree with the veto they hold, an artificial majority in a state designed to keep them in majority. What about those of us born into said state who do not see ourselves as loyal subjects, should we just accept our lot?
Alfie,
ReplyDelete‘Perhaps the 'better deed' that Connolly talks about should be a nonviolent mass movement against partition on both sides of the border.’
I should have clarified that that was Pearse, but yes, I wouldn’t oppose such a movement.
‘There is simply no way of ending partition unless you have a large majority in the Republic and at least a sizeable minority in the North who insist on having a united Ireland.’
But that exists now. The GFA was sold under false pretences. If the question asked was ‘do you accept partition?’ the result would not have been remotely what it was.
‘…I think that Northern Ireland, like Israel, was illegitimately established; however that does not mean I think the North should be disestablished by any means necessary.’
Why not? It is an illegal statelet, and it should be destroyed? Stormont delenda est.
‘I also do not believe in the consent principle applying solely to the North, for the island of Ireland was long considered a single country before 1922 (by both its own people and foreigners - even the British) and so the island as a whole should have the right to determine its future.’
I agree that Irish sovereignty is being denied.
‘However, a majority on both sides of the border has accepted partition, so I don't believe we can resist the will of the people by force of arms.’
They accepted it by a sleight of hand, they were sold a lie, which told them their vote was for peace and would lead to a 32 County Republic. No one was asked if they accepted partition.
‘I mean, how can the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA possibly succeed when the vast majority of the people on this island oppose them?’
They can’t but they continue to act as our conscience and remind us that freedom is there if we want it.
Marty
ReplyDelete'My question is do we just accept partition then? As a republican find that hard to accept but I do belief armed resistance to it's existence at present is futile'.
Agreed! I don't want to see one more person die for Ireland because the majority in the 32 county could care less. A new Irish republican political party needs to be formed in as an alternative to PSF. That should be the priority of those who want a re-united Ireland. Then work through the process from there...voting out any Irish republican politician who is not on board.
Feedback?
I think that if the government in the North were very repressive, then a minority would have the right to resist by force of arms. Though that government may have been repressive in the past, I don't think it is anymore, or at least not to the extent that would justify armed insurrection by a small minority of citizens. Indeed, it is debatable whether the government in the North was ever repressive enough to merit an armed response. Of course, I was not around for the civil rights marches, and I have never felt the impact of an RUC baton or plastic bullet, nor have I seen the inside of an internment cell, but all I can do is analyse the facts as I see them.
ReplyDeleteHelen hon we need to stop playing the numbers game,thats psf and Mickeyboys game,Irelands cause is the freedom of its people to decide its future,no matter how many die on the alter of freedom it is a small price to pay for a nation once again.
ReplyDeleteAlfie,
ReplyDelete"I wasn't alive for a lot of the Troubles and so I don't have too much difficulty putting the past behind me, but the families of the hundreds of civilians that the PIRA killed might. You won't be writing any articles about their plight though, will you"
My heart goes out to any civilian who winds up a victim in any war. However, some people seem to forget that the IRA was not the cause of the “Troubles.”
War is a terrible thing Alfie, but lack of freedom and denial of basic civil and human rights based on religious and political beliefs to me is worse.
Are you familiar with much of Irish history, especially pertaining to the War of Independence? The Black and Tans? Do you know anything about Croke Park and what they call ‘Bloody Sunday 1920’ when British soldiers gunned down 14 innocent civilians at a football match? The Black and Tans were vicious, murderous thugs who didn’t distinguish between the IRA and innocent Irish civilians. The south of Ireland didn’t win its independence from the Brits because everyone played nice Alfie.
What do you know about the Dublin-Monaghan bombings? The bombings killed 33 civilians and wounded 300. The UVF claimed responsibility for it and there is proof that members of the British security forces colluded in the bombing. The Committee on Justice in your national parliament at the time called it an “act of terrorism along with allegations of British security involvement,” ‘yet no one has ever been brought to justice for this crime. In fact, as of 2006,to my knowledge, the British government has still refused to cooperate with the investigation.
My point in all this Alfie is that the Brits, regardless of your interpretation of them being “less harsh” are wolves in sheep’s clothing and have NEVER apologized or stepped up to the plate for their part in the murder of any innocent Irish civilians through the troubles or prior.
The south did what it had to do to gain their independence from them in 1921, so where does anyone get off criticizing those in the north who did the exact same thing? There is an old expression I recall that reminds me of some people’s attitude in the south toward those in the north who want self-determination…”a full pig in the sty doesn’t feel the empty pig go by.” Corny maybe, but I think somewhat fitting.
Helen be it military means or political I dont really give a f##k as long as we say slan abhaile to those lackeys and the Geraldines who have raped this land,no method or mean is unworthy to make this land unfit for those who wish to destroy an Irish nation,while one man stands proud to be Irish Ireland unfree shall never be at ease.we havent gone away ye know!!!!
ReplyDeletemarty,
ReplyDelete'Helen hon we need to stop playing the numbers game,thats psf and Mickeyboys game,Irelands cause is the freedom of its people to decide its future,no matter how many die on the alter of freedom it is a small price to pay for a nation once again'.
Marty, I hear what you are saying, but then the people should rise again, in numbers like in Egypt, and get the job done this time once and for all. Otherwise, imo, it's just sending a few brave young men to life in prison or a premature death at this particular point in time.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'You have asked people to vote them
[ Sinn Fein ] out of office-
but you don't say who do vote for
again you are afraid to take sides'
Yes to voting out of office ANY politician that lies and deceives their voters regardless of party affiliation.
The problem appears to be that although people are opposed to PSF, they would rather deal with the devil they know than the devil they don't? I'm constantly being told by several Irish republicans living in the north that they have very limited political alternatives to PSF? Personally, I believe that is exactly the way PSF wants it by some of their actions.
As for me 'taking sides' Be specific? I just call it as I see it.
'Hate all you want but Ireland is loved'
I don't hate michaelhenry, I resent. And what I resent is that men and women gave their lives for a re-united Ireland, while others served an obscene amount of time in prison - and all they got from the leadership at the end of the GFA was a big FU - especially those who paid their dues and lived to see the sellout by the arm-chair generals that gave them their marching orders which resulted in either death or long prison terms.
I believe there are many Irish republican men and women over there who have remained true to their republicanism and who have the intellect, honesty and integrity to run as independents against PSF and who won’t kowtow to the DUP, the RUC and the Brits. Who will take the north toward reunification while holding onto their republicanism and integrity.
Helen I was at the falling down water again last night and its works hon I killed Elizabeth Taylor and made love to dinosaurs.anyway mo cara I think that Eirigi (forgive me for not using fadas I dont know how to place them)has the makings of a viable alternative to psf,and before Mickeyboy busts a gut laughing I can remember when psf was nothing much more than Maura Drumm and a few others and when psf first dipped its toes in the political waters again to be outpolled by the sticks.we know well how psf reached the stage where it finds itself today ie, on the backs of dead volunteers and vast misery for the republican community,Eirigi will have to work hard to garner support from the ever increasing number of disillusioned republicans,no mean task but it can be done, Eirigi has a major advantage in that its starting point is one of honesty and not ego driven.at last there just might be a reason for republicans to return to the polls.and no Mickeyboy that was not a party political broadcast on behalf of Eirigi mo cara just a personal opinion.
ReplyDeleteAlfie-
ReplyDeleteThe whole of Ireland did vote to
determine its present and future
and to right past wrongs
The big bad brit is also a stupid
subject
I read the agreement and voted yes-
i was not surprised when some journalists would lie about the peoples agreement when they said that articles 2 and 3 were gone.
Israel- now that the plo and hamas are on ceasefire and will accept some land instead of there believe's- are they now to be called traitors- plo and hamas are
the collins of the middle east.
Fionnuala-
ReplyDeleteSurprised to hear that you support
the cuban system of allowing foreign troops on their soil
There revolution was about change-
not to house american soldiers and
americas political prisoners
Can't say that che is turning in his grave because he agreed with that way to live in peace.
A former Sinn Fein administrator
give you a tour around stormont- was
it denis donaldson.
Helen,
ReplyDelete' A new Irish republican political party needs to be formed in as an alternative to PSF'
I think the last thing we need is another party, there's too much division already but I'd agree an alternative is needed to challenge SF. I'd say like Marty that the best option out there at the minute is éirígí (you can get the fadas on the keypad Marty, couple of different ways but depending on your puter if you hold the 'ALT GR' key and the letter at the same time is the quickest). They've some way to go but the activists they have are genuinely committed. And before MichaelHenry starts with the stoops shite, I think at present they are only contesting council elections which this year happen to be in the 6 counties and not in the south where they're not due for another two/three years.
MichaelHenry,
ReplyDelete'There revolution was about change-
not to house BRITISH soldiers and
IRISH political prisoners'
In the words of your glorious leader, they haven't gone away you know...
Thanks Martydownunder mo cara thats something new Ive learnt today,now if only I can find where I left my head last night!
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDelete"But that exists now. The GFA was sold under false pretences. If the question asked was ‘do you accept partition?’ the result would not have been remotely what it was. ... They accepted it by a sleight of hand, they were sold a lie, which told them their vote was for peace and would lead to a 32 County Republic. No one was asked if they accepted partition."
I'm not so sure. A Red C/Sunday Times opinion poll last October showed that only 57% of people in the Republic favour a united Ireland, with 22% against it and 21% who don't know. This is down from 80% in favour in a similar poll in 2006. In the North, only about 22% of the population want a united Ireland. Also, I would imagine that much smaller proportions than 22% in the North and 57% in the South would actually vote for a party that was against the consent principle and whose priority was a united Ireland. Most people vote for parties that accept the partitionist framework. We might not like this, and we should try to change it, but I think we have to respect it.
Furthermore, when the citizens of the Republic passed the referendum to amend their state's constitution in 1998, they essentially voted to accept the unionist veto/consent principle. Thus, they voted to accept partition until such time as a majority in the North decides to end it. I don't think the electorate in the Republic was under any illusions about that. Nor do I think that anyone in the North - with the posssible exception of Michael Henry - really believed that a vote for the Belfast Agreement was a vote for a united Ireland. The agreement was patently an internal, power-sharing settlement to the conflict in Northern Ireland and I would not insult the intelligence of the electorate in the North by contending that they did not understand what they were voting for.
"Why not? It is an illegal statelet, and it should be destroyed? Stormont delenda est."
It has existed for over 90 years, has the support of the majority (at least two-thirds) of its citizens and is recognised by the Republic of Ireland and by the international community.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteSimple question for you.
Do you believe Ireland is FREE?
What do you think of Pearse’s words;
“Ireland unfree shall never be at peace”?
Alfie,
ReplyDelete‘… A Red C/Sunday Times opinion poll last October showed that only 57% of people in the Republic favour a united Ireland, with 22% against it and 21% who don't know.’
That doesn’t surprise me. In fact I am surprised that there are that many who want unity.
‘Most people vote for parties that accept the partitionist framework. We might not like this, and we should try to change it, but I think we have to respect it.’
Why should we? I have no respect for that at all, in fact I despise it.
‘Furthermore, when the citizens of the Republic passed the referendum to amend their state's constitution in 1998, they essentially voted to accept the unionist veto/consent principle.’
More shame on them if you are right.
‘Thus, they voted to accept partition until such time as a majority in the North decides to end it.’
With all the ‘creative ambiguity’ of the great LIE, aka the GFA, from the British Government and the nod and a wink from Sinn Féin telling people it was a vote for unity and a vote taken asking people if they ‘want peace,’ it is not worth the paper it is written on.
‘…Nor do I think that anyone in the North - with the posssible exception of Michael Henry - really believed that a vote for the Belfast Agreement was a vote for a united Ireland.’
But he probably believes that the RA hasn’t surrendered its arms.
‘The agreement was patently an internal, power-sharing settlement to the conflict in Northern Ireland …’
And one that all right minded people will ignore for that fact.
"Why not? It is an illegal statelet, and it should be destroyed? …."
‘It has existed for over 90 years, has the support of the majority (at least two-thirds) of its citizens and is recognised by the Republic of Ireland and by the international community.’
You may be a ‘constitutional nationalist’ but I do not believe the Irish people have any more right to do this than a parent has to sell a child. The two States were placed here to usurp the will of the historic Irish nation, and if there were only one person in, or outside of, Ireland to say that, they would be right.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteI know we are free- I have said so
a number of times
" Ireland unfree shall never be at
peace "
Is that why there is no war now-
I don't know what age pearse was when he wrote and said those words but he knew that he was going to die for Ireland and that future
generation's [ this one ] would
finish the job.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteOnly a shinner would slag off Che, what's wrong can they not get a foot hold in Cuba, Fidel not too happy with their claptrap.
A few years ago I heard a Sinn Fein delegation went over to Che's re-internment, what an insult to a legend, but then they have insulted legnds on Irish soil, they did not need to go to Cuba for that one.
Yes it was Dennis Donaldson.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteIn the light of your preposterous statement that Ireland is a free nation, I would urge you to read the words of James Connolly, (written in 1916.)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1916/02/whtfrnat.htm
If this link doesn't work, 'google' James Connolly's Writing, go to top site and scroll down to 1916 and then click on 'What is a Free Nation?'
Oh and by the way, if Ireland is free, why do you refer to it as being 'occupied'?
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'Is that why there is no war now'
While traitors have switched sides, the movement needs to re-build, ever careful of the renegade, erstwhile Republicans in their midst.
'I don't know what age pearse was when he wrote and said those words'
You don't know about the greatest speech in Irish Republican history, that says a lot.
Here are the words before it:
"They think that they have pacified Ireland. They think that they have purchased half of us and intimidated the other half. They think that they have foreseen everything, think that they have provided against everything; but, the fools, the fools, the fools! — They have left us our Fenian dead, and while Ireland holds these graves, Ireland unfree shall never be at peace."
He also said;
"The leaders in Ireland have nearly always left the people at the critical moment; they have sometimes sold them. The former Volunteer movement was abandoned by its leaders; O’Connell recoiled before the cannon at Clontarf; twice the hour of the Irish revolution struck during Young Ireland days and twice it struck in vain, for Meagher hesitated in Waterford, Duffy and McGee hesitated in Dublin. Stephens refused to give the word in ‘65; he never came in ‘66 or ‘67."
We need a man like Pearse today, he knew a thing or two about treachery.
Michaelhenry- Are you aware that Cuba's Guantanamo Bay was American before the Revolution and it was force that allowed the U.S. to not only keep it but also to attack the rest of Cuba from there?
ReplyDeleteThe socialist Cubans of the current system didn't agree to the United States having Guantanamo. They don't like the situation but they couldn't seriously win the land back, either through diplomacy or confrontation.
marty,
ReplyDeleteI hope you and everyone else who feels this way NEVER go away my friend. One day it will happen, I just hope we get to see it.
marty,
ReplyDeleteYou are too funny. I was at the 'falling down water' myself the night I threatened michaelhenry that I would expose who he really was, but then AM gave me a wake-up call, so I have to be good now - LOL.
Anyway, to be honest with you I'm not all that familiar with Eirigi so I will do my homework to learn more about them and keep an eye on them. Everyone has to start somewhere. I don't mean to sound egotistical in any way, but I always felt if it weren't for so many Irish-Americans who supported the cause for so long - PSF would never have gotten as far as they did politically.
If you think about it, Irish-Americans helped them gain the credibility they needed to be recognized as a political entity and to get to first base with American politicians in Washington, DC. If it weren't for Irish Americans, Adams would have never gotten a visa to the USA.
We did it once before marty, and we can do it again for a new Irish republican political party. So bring it on!
MartyDownUnder,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the information. As I mentioned to marty, I'm not familiar with them but I will check them out.
My suggestion was clearly meant to suggest an alternative to challenge PSF as you mention here. How the people go about that is up to them, but an alternative seriously needs to be found for the voters sake.
Alfie,
ReplyDelete'Most people vote for parties that accept the partitionist framework'
WHY?
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete'I know we are free- I have said so
a number of times'
Free from WHAT?
John McGirr,
ReplyDeleteMichaelhenry doesn't have a clue. He is all over the place and only answers what is comfortable for him to answer. Did you notice I asked him twice about why he has been on every Irish blog site bad-mouthing McGeough for at least the last 3 years? He won't answer it. I asked him why he hasn't spoken out about the polticially motivated arrest of McGeough AND McAnespie? He won't answer it.
It appears that all michaelhenry knows is whatever PSF has brainwashed him to believe. You're wasting your time.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking about Dennis Donaldson, whatever happened to Adam's driver? I read he was a 'plant' or 'informer' a year or two ago and never heard another thing about it?
Roy the boy Mc Shane did do a runner Helen, like the rest of them he is a man of dubious character, dont see why he felt like running ,sure arent they all taking the queens shilling!
ReplyDeleteHelen,
ReplyDeleteHe was outed three years ago, however, like his security team buddies Scappaticci and Ruby Davidson, there had been
rumors circulating for months about him.
He was a driver for Adams and McGuinness and there was a lot of talk that he knew quite a lot more than Sinn Fein ever revealed.
A lot of people believe he was privy to a lot of highly sensitive material.
As Alex Maskey, rightly said at the time,'As far as i'm concerned he is safe. Let's face it the war is over, he is not in any danger.'
He was totally right, there are loads of them (former agents) who walk about with total impunity.
I once wrote a letter to a local paper to enquire, was this the place where the term 'free agent' originated?
The only people likely to be in any danger here Helen, are those who speak out about the hypocrisy and the stitch up.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDeleteI meant to ask in my last post, why Sinn Fein has promoted Che and the Cuban Revolution for years?
Senior activists such as Spike Murray, were giving lectures, (be it tongue in cheek, or just sheer fcuking cheek) about Che up until late last year.
I was just hoping maybe you could explain why they are promoting Che and Cuba, if their members are of the opinion, that Cuba never had a successful revoltuion after all?
Could it be, once you have sold out your own struggle, using someone elses becomes the only option.
Helen,
ReplyDelete"War is a terrible thing Alfie, but lack of freedom and denial of basic civil and human rights based on religious and political beliefs to me is worse."
Certainly, there were injustice and inequality in Northern Ireland, but did the circumstances justify an armed campaign to bring down the state, especially since a majority of its citizens wanted to remain part of Britain? Of course, it can be argued that the repression (and eventual murder) of civil rights marchers provided enough justification for an offensive armed campaign, but, given that most people on either side of the border were against such a campaign, I am more inclined to think that defensive armed actions alone were justified. Of course, this is said with much hindsight and I don't blame the PIRA for waging war against British forces; however, it may not have been the best strategy in the circumstances.
"Are you familiar with much of Irish history, especially pertaining to the War of Independence?"
I'm no expert, but it must be said that violent British repression of the civilian population began only after the IRA guerrilla war was well under way, so it cannot be used as justification for starting the war against the British. Nevertheless, I think that armed resistance was probably justified in 1916 and in 1919 because three constitutional attempts had been made to attain all-Ireland Home Rule prior to 1916, and all had failed. Also, in the 1918 general election, the island of Ireland essentially voted for a 32-county Irish republic, to be attained by "any and every means available". This was not an explicit vote for war, but it did give the Dáil the power to wage war if TDs deemed it necessary. It is troubling that the 1916 rising did not have a democratic mandate and that the first armed activities of the IRA campaign in 1919 did not have the imprimatur of the Dáil, but Irish electorates effectively endorsed both the rising in the general election of 1918 and the war of independence in subsequent elections.
"What do you know about the Dublin-Monaghan bombings? ...there is proof that members of the British security forces colluded in the bombing."
There is a strong suspicion of involvement by members of the British security forces, but I'm not sure that there is concrete proof. Nevertheless, the refusal of the British to cooperate fully with the Barron investigation suggests that they have something to hide.
"[T]he Brits ... have NEVER apologized or stepped up to the plate for their part in the murder of any innocent Irish civilians through the troubles or prior."
That's not entirely true; the British government did apologise last year for Bloody Sunday, for example. And the IRA was not averse to killing civilians and lying about it either. It has never owned up to the Kingsmill massacre and the other killings its members carried out under the guise of the South Armagh Republican Action Force.
"The south did what it had to do to gain their independence from them in 1921, so where does anyone get off criticizing those in the north who did the exact same thing?"
I don't believe it is the exact same thing. Since the war of independence ended, majorities north and south of the border have consistently affirmed through democratic elections that they prefer partition to war. PSF commanded only a minority of the nationalist vote in the North until it renounced its support for political violence. It has never attracted more than 10% of the vote in the South. So from where did its mandate to wage war come?
I think people in the Republic have as much right to criticize armed republican activities on this island as Irish-Americans have the right to egg them on.
John,
ReplyDelete"The two States were placed here to usurp the will of the historic Irish nation, and if there were only one person in, or outside of, Ireland to say that, they would be right."
Do Native Americans in the USA have a right to mount an armed campaign against the US government to take back the lands that were historically theirs? What if only one Native American was willing to fight the US state? Would he/she be entitled to do so?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAlfie- I understand what you say about majorities in the two parts of Ireland democratically supporting the status quo. But partition and the border were arbitrarily designed. Why not have Armagh or Antrim and Down or Derry partitioned from the rest of the North if they chose? If 50% plus one vote agrees. Back into the Republic or into their own mini statelet? With a significant minority who disagree left within the new arbitrary state. The same principle applies. Just because a majority in Northern Ireland agree that the gerrymandered border should stay doesn't make it right. In fact that is why it is wrong.
ReplyDeleteAs for British repression it didn't suddenly start with the War for Independence. There was repression for centuries. For some reason the name Cromwell pops into my head or visions of the mismanagement of the Great Hunger.
Even without repression Ireland wasn't ruled by Ireland but by an undemocratic parliament in Westminster albeit with the participation of Irish Unionists. It wasn't just a question of repression but of other mismanagement particularly the lack of democracy. 'Sinn Fein' translates as 'Us Ourselves' and was created so that the Irish would rule themselves. ie. Us, ourselves.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteWhat have Red Indians got to do with Irish freedom?
You keep referring to 'Northern Ireland' and to a seemingly different country called the 'Irish Republic'. I recognise only one Ireland from the centre to the sea, not the two illegal governments you mention.
John,
ReplyDeleteThey are not 'Red Indians' you are watching too many cowboy westerns.
They are native Americans, and in a way they have a lot to do with us considering they had their country taken also.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteThe reason I chose those words was precisely to bring into focus the use of terms such as 'Northern Ireland' and the 'Irish Republic' when referring to the illegal states set up in Ireland.
If the words 'Red Indian' are so shocking, why are the hated words 'Northern Ireland' etc, not equally shocking?
John,
ReplyDeleteI feel slightly offended when I hear people use the term Northern Ireland, especially people who should know better.
However, I do not think it is as offensive as pinning an oppressors label on an indigenous people.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAntoin,
ReplyDelete"At no point since the democratic elections in 1918 have the irish people voted for partition."
Not explicitly, but since 1922, a clear majority has always voted for parties that accept partition. No party that advocated the ending of partition by military means ever commanded anything close to a majority in the South, and it was not until PSF abandoned the armed struggle that it overtook the SDLP as the largest nationalist party in the North.
"If the irish people had an option other than partition in 1998,ie.-reunification,and they voted against it,then the only conclusion that the republican movement would have been able to draw was that unity wasn't the will of the people."
People had the option of voting 'yes' or 'no' to maintaining partition and enshrining the consent principle. The vast majority voted 'yes'; the only group on this island who voted 'no' in significant numbers were unionists, who were simply too thick to realise they had won. For the record, I would have voted 'no'.
"Selecting singular events such as the Kingsmills tragedy or Omagh is called selective condemnation."
So Kingsmill was a "tragedy", was it? The armalites just happened to go off and shoot 11 Protestant civilians? Funny how when the British kill civilians, it's murder; but when republicans do it, it's a tragedy. I am not afraid to condemn the British, whom I believe have no right to be in Ireland; however, armed republicans were guilty of many dark deeds and it is important that we acknowledge them. I also wonder why you didn't upbraid Helen for selective condemnation as well, given that she listed only British crimes.