I would be the first to say that my experiences differ vastly to others, and I condemn Any form of murder, from wherever it comes and whilst I can accept and even understand in some instances, that people during the conflict here took up arms for a variety of reasons, I can never condone the deliberate taking of a life.
I am from a Unionist family; however, I can never remember being brought to the 12th parades as a child and only remember mum in the latter days of my gran’s life being coerced into taking her. My only experience of the parades is having to police them every year and it was not a duty I looked forward to. I have to say though, that Belfast is a totally different atmosphere (certainly within North Belfast) than other areas. I have been publicly critical of the Orange Order and of the way some loyalists conduct themselves at parades, and in fact year long.
Having said all that, in the past few days I have seen what looks like inflated misrepresentation by people who should know better. Journalists, political figures, so called political commentators - all have had their digs at the PUL community, in some cases spinning in order to try to score points against it.
We saw Sinead McLaughlin weighing in from Derry to castigate the 12th by tweeting:
Everybody leaves, everything closes down, you would struggle to get a restaurant open in Belfast on the lead up to and the couple of days after. It is a disaster for Tourism.
Can I categorically state now that Ms McLaughlin is not factual? Restaurants were busy, shops were busy, museums were open, as was St Georges Market - and all were bringing in revenue. Even in my own area, all restaurants were booming, petrol stations were open etc, so that’s Sineads’ myth busted. Then only today, Chris Donnelly decided to weigh in with the same type of argument.
A journalist wrote about their ‘trauma and scars’ as a youth and having almost to evacuate the awfulness of the 12th. If this was not one of the most sickening displays of unadulterated sectarianism and ‘poor me’ I have had the misfortune to read in quite some time, I don't really know what is. Only that I am aware of some of their past, I knew that they were well aware of North Belfast prior to having to report from the riots.
What should have been homed in on by all was the disgusting and vile effigy and (with some headers in the Loyalist community claiming this to be‘art’) of the boat with immigrants on the top of Moygashel bonfire. The silence from some Unionist politicians was deafening on this utter display of racist hate and intimidation. Quite rightly this is being investigated as a hate incident which is however, different to a hate crime. Where were the decent community of Moygashel when this disgusting display was being raised to the top of this pyre?
What should be reported on are the good works going on within communities, people who, prior to what we call ‘peace’, would have never come in contact with each other. Journalists and commentators should also challenge any attempt to stir hatred and division from wherever between the two communities, showing that it is counter-productive, juvenile and wrong. Journalists should be impartial when reporting on events rather than propel their own sensationalist agendas onto the unsuspecting public for clicks and drama.
We should all take ownership for calling out the wrongs in our own communities. All sides spouting vile nonsense only serves the purpose of dragging us back and has zero positive impact on our society.
A journalist wrote about their ‘trauma and scars’ as a youth and having almost to evacuate the awfulness of the 12th. If this was not one of the most sickening displays of unadulterated sectarianism and ‘poor me’ I have had the misfortune to read in quite some time, I don't really know what is. Only that I am aware of some of their past, I knew that they were well aware of North Belfast prior to having to report from the riots.
What should have been homed in on by all was the disgusting and vile effigy and (with some headers in the Loyalist community claiming this to be‘art’) of the boat with immigrants on the top of Moygashel bonfire. The silence from some Unionist politicians was deafening on this utter display of racist hate and intimidation. Quite rightly this is being investigated as a hate incident which is however, different to a hate crime. Where were the decent community of Moygashel when this disgusting display was being raised to the top of this pyre?
What should be reported on are the good works going on within communities, people who, prior to what we call ‘peace’, would have never come in contact with each other. Journalists and commentators should also challenge any attempt to stir hatred and division from wherever between the two communities, showing that it is counter-productive, juvenile and wrong. Journalists should be impartial when reporting on events rather than propel their own sensationalist agendas onto the unsuspecting public for clicks and drama.
We should all take ownership for calling out the wrongs in our own communities. All sides spouting vile nonsense only serves the purpose of dragging us back and has zero positive impact on our society.
 |
| Lesley Stock is a former PSNI and RUC Officer currently involved in community work. |
I was there up to the 12th meself. The Loyalist marches are contracting into much smaller affairs, becoming much more family focused and getting rid of all the shite that put me off, the drunken howling sectarian shite is definitely abating (jeer all you want it's what I observed) though absolutely is still there, and needs terminating. Fair play to BCC for cleaning up the abomination of unnecessary rubbish left behind in Bradbury place. This always fucked me off no end. I come from a Loyalist family but we have all mellowed significantly over the years and all are done with this type of nonsense. I never could stand the rubbish left over after marches. At least act like responsible citizens after enjoying yourself.
ReplyDeleteMuch fewer Israeli flags too, my community should set aside the shite "My enemy's enemy is my friend" bollocks and take rightful outrage at what the Israeli's are doing in Gaza, it's beyond an obscenity to Humanity and we should hold no truck with it.
I'm still getting over the jet lag so forgive me for just commenting and not writing a piece. Hope everyone and their families are well, and I mean that most sincerely.
Stevie.
I think the Orange Order still has some way to go, for me even to attend a 12th Parade - certainly in Belfast. For 28 years, I was unfortunately subjected to the horrendous behaviour (more notable on the return parade) of some of the supporters and indeed the bandsmen. The shouting of abuse between the loyalists as they passed Nationalist areas, and vice versa was something else. I feel that the OO, if they are to employ bands, should hold them completely to account and unless they adhere to strict codes of conduct, then they should be banned from participating again. The OO does need to look forward, unfortunately, contrary to what Mervyn Gibson said in an interview with the Belfast Telegraph only last week, I didn't hear much 'moving' with the times.
DeleteThanks for your piece Leslie and thanks Stevie for your follow on comment. Both are statements of your experiences and opinions.
ReplyDeleteHowever, my experiences, perceptions and opinions are very much at variance to those which both of you express. I, as do many in the CRN community, associate Unionism and Loyalism with supremacism. We tend to view Unionism and Loyalism in much the same way perhaps as Black America views White Supremacism. We view the '12th' parades in much the same way as Black Americans might regard a Klan gathering, hate-filled top-dog lunacy!
Bad news: Neither the Black Man nor the Croppies are for lying down any longer.
Hadn't ye noticed?
HJ,
DeleteI think they are most definitely winding back though. The lack of background violence that happened during the conflict inflamed it much more. I believe it will eventually contract into a few small parades and bonfires as the young mix more and more ( I can even see this within my own younger family members dating across the divide with not an eyebrow raised either- something that would have been unthinkable 30 years ago.)
If you ignore them then they go away much sooner! No need to lay down, just go for a pint and ignore! LOL
The attempt by Nordy SF to pit the PSNI against the PUL community was rightly seen for what it was though, regards the bonfire.
Sure Steve they are winding back. That has to be acknowledged.
DeleteHowever, the law needs to be applied, applied equally, and seen to be applied that way.
The bonfire in the Village area contravened health and safety legislation and the Tyrone one, contravened Incitement laws.
Are people supposed to just look the other way and suck it up?
It's just more Croppies lay down behaviour, the mob extending two-fingers to the rest of society. Both these situations, no doubt challenging in policing terms, and financially costly, ought to have been tackled.
The Village bonfire had those issues known about for years and it wasn't a problem then and it passed off peacefully once again.
DeleteThe Moygashel bonfire also burned a sign on the exact same bonfire calling for Veterans before Refugees so I'm not entirely sure they thought through the symbology of what they were burning lol
My point was ...if you can see something that annoys you thrives on your attention and without your attention it's withering and dying, why are you keeping it alive? It's been 10 days since the 12th and I haven't heard anything about any widespread sectarian riots?
Steve - I think what gives it legs is the level of naked hatred expressed. Every society has cultures and subcultures. I think a culturally promiscuous society is healthier than one where cultural rigidity prevails. But a culture of racist hatred should no more be tolerated than a culture of wife beating - just because there is a tradition of it.
DeleteI have memories of a very small number of people heading off over the 12th but it was miniscule. I have a friend who comes down over the 12th and has a drink. Most stay put. Nationalists in the North very much notice the 12th whereas in the South it is just another day, means nothing. And I live beside the Boyne!
" I think what gives it legs is the level of naked hatred expressed. Every society has cultures and subcultures. I think a culturally promiscuous society is healthier than one where cultural rigidity prevails. But a culture of racist hatred should no more be tolerated than a culture of wife beating - just because there is a tradition of it."
DeleteIt'll die a death as the young put our past behind us Anthony.
"Are you saying the families of the two boys are responsible for their alleged actions? Was this the worst crime Ballymena has ever seen? Show me previous riots sparked by the alleged behaviour of a white British suspect.:
Nope Hedlay, YOU are saying that. I'm saying it was that last straw with regards to that particular grouping of Romanian crime gangs. The locals were fed up, and when the 2 youths of that grouping attempted to rape the local girl the locals went nuts. AGAIN, I am referring to that specific grouping of Romanians. I'm just back from Belfast and encountered many nationalities living in a strongly Loyalist estate quite peacefully. They just want to get on with their lives and more importantly they are most definitely integrating within the local community and are well liked.
Not that there aren't arseholes in my community but they are becoming thin on the ground these days as everyone becomes less tolerant of nonsense. Where I grew up was pretty wild and I was very pleasantly surprised at how quiet and peaceful it had become. I thought it was just me on some sort of twee nostalgia trip but apparently that's just the way things are. If that's the change in the place then happy to have more legal migrants who integrate no problem.
Lesley --you might be telling your truth --for the PUL But your truth is involves sectarian blindness --Sinead McLaughlin is telling/ repeating the truth about what the 12 sectarian fest means for nationalists -yes we do live under siege and no we dont want sectarian bigots coat trail or stomp through our communities -- children are sent away for the 12th or the whole family goes if they can afford it --shops in clash points sutter-up .. So yeah we do move away and if youd any nationalist friends in flash points you'd be taking a red-ner right now.
ReplyDeleteChristie, my parents also took me away out of it during the 12th. So believe me it wasn't just Nationalists who left for their summer holidays. I don't see why I should be 'taking a Redner' - as you say, this is my truth, this is how I see things as they happened this year. Believe me, its the first year that I have commented in a half decent light about the 12th (any other year I'd have been lambasting the bonfires, the OO and the fact that there are too many incidents of vile drunken behaviour by louts, Ive never done that regarding St Patricks day events - the drunken behaviour bit)See Christie if I was blinded by sectarianism, which I strongly refute, I would never criticise the PUL community.... I think indeed it may be someone else 'blinded by sectarianism'
DeleteNot Really Here - Nothing I said deprives you of your truth nor did I hint, suggest or imply you should take a redner?? My comment --did not even deprive Lesley of her truth --I point out that she seems oblivious to nationalist truth --which you say you also shared each summer. Lesley couches her
ReplyDeleteassertions as someone who has never participated in the 12th Sectarian Fest as if she could not be sectarian. from that I deduce 1) she is aware of the significance of sectarian fest --and by that one is to conclude she is not sectarian -while disregarding the nationalist experience. Lesley is not as subtle as she seems to think she is, and while her articles are welcome -I do read them -but she should try and be the person she tries to portray herself as.
Words from Sam McIlwaine (Shrapnel podcast) re. coverage of the marching season:
ReplyDelete"I see myself as a balanced, reasoned, moderate loyalist. But this continuous onslaught on my community, my friends, my background has really pushed me this year. So much so I've decided to re-engage politically. This cannot go unchallenged...They have pushed moderates, disengaged unionists/loyalists, back into the fold as such."
"balanced, reasoned, moderate loyalist"
DeleteOxymoronic twaddle!
HJ
DeleteI was about to object but I consider myself more of just a flawed human these days lol
"I see myself as a balanced, reasoned, moderate loyalist"
ReplyDeleteI'd one stage, I'd have considered this an Oxymoron. I've a lot of time for Sam, but the times they are a-changing. Bonfires are environmentally unsound. I'm opposed to republican and loyalist ones. It's time to move on. I don't see an onslaught against loyalism, I see a re-balancing. As I've said repeatedly, loyalists have lost every fight they've started (they would say have been provoked into) since Obins Road in the mid 1980s.
I went to the Orange parades in 2011 with a friend from uni. I stood on the Dublin Road and watched the spectacle. There was a fair bit of drunken behaviour, and one thing I hadn't realised was how intensely some bands disliked each other. A few feet from where I stood, someone threw very loud firecrackers into a band, which caused a lot of disruption. The culprit was chased by a loads of guys, who were in turn chased by a couple of PSNI officers.
One of the most galling things I saw that day was a minister of some kind wearing a religious collar and beaming with pride as he walked with his brethren. I'm not sure what annoyed me so much about him, perhaps the hypocrisy of someone identifying as a man of God whilst partaking in an exercise of exclusion.
Orange parades now-a-days remind me of the miners going back to work after calling off the strike in the 1980s. Like a defeated army.
Brandon, it's as equally oximoronic as SF members and supporters calling themselves Republicans. One can either be a Republican or a Partitionist, but not both.
DeleteOne cannot be both a Republican (as I and others here once called ourselves and practiced) and a democrat. Those terms are mutually exclusive.
HJ
[a reluctant partitionist, and sometimes reluctant democrat]
". There was a fair bit of drunken behaviour, and one thing I hadn't realised was how intensely some bands disliked each othe"
DeleteBrandon that'll be UVF or UDA affiliated bands. They hate each other.
Christopher --the quote you cite is much inline with Lesley's article and her strange alias 'not really here' --which makes me ask 'where is she all there?' --any way she comments "I think the Orange Order still has some way to go, for me even to attend a 12th Parade" --- if she has hangups about the OO why is it hypocrisy for Sinead McLaughlin or nationalists?
ReplyDeleteAn impression I get is Lesley likes to portray herself as a moderate through her detachment from, and criticisms of, the OO but at the same time she is not yet ready to see the end of a sectarian and bigoted organization established to maintain Protestant ascendancy.
I knew Brian Kennaway fairly well and he believed in the Orange tradition while despising the bigotry. He showed considerable courage in standing up to the Orange leadership. He told me he was a Christian and regarded the Orange Order as foremost a religious institution even when he had difficulties 'seeing the face of Christ' in it
DeleteAwe Christy, now don't be getting your knickers in a knot. Are you trying to say that I am a secret sectarian, as opposed to an outright one like yourself? I can assure you, I am as moderate as they come, I at least have the capacity to understand that people have their own individual experiences, upbringing and opinions, and you know what? I understand your experience and upbringing is more than likely a world away from mine, but that's fine. What's not fine is someone not even trying to understand others point of view. You do realise that people can stand up for something which they wouldn't have anything to do with. I'll try to make it easy, just because someone believes that Isreal are now committing genocide in Gaza (which I do), doesn't mean that I thought the attack on 7 October was right. (which I don't) I may not agree with what someone says, but if its true and is their opinion, then they have a right to say it. Anthony is an atheist, I accept he doesn't have the same views as myself, but he's well within his right to believe what he feels is right. I won't have a row with him, we have had civilised discussions about it. Not sure where you're from Christy, but I'd have a drink with you irrespective.....
DeleteLesley - people are conditioned by the circumstances which they were born into and brought up in. The problem starts when we think that our localistic view should be a universalistic one and must apply to all. Then we don't even try to see how the other person might have a different view from us of the very same thing. We just don't experience things empirically but also ideologically. Everything can be reformed but it is invariably incremental. I used to ask Brian Kennaway why he stayed in an institution he was so scathing of. He identified with its religious battles and hoped Christianity would come to prevail. Good individuals can often be found in bad institutions but I think we need to look at the institution rather than the individual to better understand what is happening.
DeleteI don't for a second believe you are a bigot - but I don't think you should mistake Christy's somewhat bellicose debating style as sectarian. I think it very important to try to understand the other but be aware of the danger of 'going native' on it.
On the subject of Gaza, the most obnoxious people I find are those peace train-type Christians who fail lamentably to speak out against the genocide yet are so vociferous when Iran cracks down on dissent or something. They are the quintessential pharisees. It is heartening when people like yourself call Israel's behaviour for what it is. I don't think that is easy within the unionist community.
I think this discussion is symbolic of how much the two communities have diverged in recent years with some nationalists adopting modern day tactics associated with identity politics: calls for prosecutions on hate crimes, citing health and safety regulations for limiting bonfires, penning misery pieces about events years past. Meanwhile, some unionists/loyalists have reacted with a (dare I say) anti-woke approach with the burning of effigies related to migrants and Kneecap.
ReplyDeleteIs it redressing the balance? I'm not so sure.
Despite the reduced status of the OO, northern nationalists will forever associate them with sectarianism and blind hatred whereas unionists see them as a toothless relic of the past to be dug out during the summer (although it's worth noting that lodges in the countryside seem to have better attendances and a healthier age range).
A recent blog post on Slugger O'Toole from unionist commentator Choyaa saw him admit that the murders of the Quinn children "...ended support for the [Drumcree] parade among many Unionists. While the Orange Institution was not directly responsible for the killings, there remains a widespread perception that its rhetoric, mobilisation efforts, and failure to unequivocally condemn the associated violence helped create a febrile and dangerous atmosphere. Many within the organisation agreed with this assessment, and membership numbers plummeted. Thirty years later, the Orange Institution continues to grapple with this legacy and the murder of the Quinn brothers still haunts it."
He then goes on to write about how “…it has turned a blind eye to behaviour that undermines the dignity of the occasion. There is no excuse for band members and Orangemen to drink during a procession. The practice of flipping collarettes inside out or turning band hats backwards to avoid responsibility is not only ridiculous—it demeans the uniform and insults the memory the parade is meant to honour. The behaviour at the Somme parade has deteriorated so badly that it would be entirely understandable if residents along the route formed an association to campaign against the parade entering certain areas. And frankly, who could blame them, when those areas are left trashed by both marchers and spectators? Similar criticisms have been levelled at the Belfast Twelfth. These include the display of paramilitary trappings and the playing of sectarian tunes such as The Billy Boys. It’s little wonder that the organisation as a whole has struggled against decline in the city. This was starkly visible on Tuesday, when a number of East Belfast lodges looked thin on the ground.”
What this suggests, to me anyway, is an organisation that has lost its identity and purpose, struggling to assert itself against the changing tides and under greater scrutiny in a world that is both heavily depoliticised and nostalgic for a time when revolutionary change seemed possible. A strange combination for sure but such a mindset allows certain commentators to ignore the problems on the ground (unemployment, drugs, suicide, immigration) while piously condemning yesterday’s men. The end result sees people like Sam McIlwaine reengage and further polarisation.
And which idealised situation or place have we diverged from Christopher? Where and when did the 'pacification process' bear fruit?
DeleteLeaving aside the the comfortable middle, which for the largest part remained aloof from the worst excesses of the struggle, did this nirvana, that we've now diverged from, show itself?
Sure, the guns have been silenced, and that was paramount, but where as we move away from the centre towards the periphery, has the pre-existing tensions and undercurrents changed significantly? For example, how many metres of peace barriers have been removed? Some evidence, concrete and measureable would help.
Like so many you seem to have confused a pacification process with a peace one. And like Leslie forget or minimise the impact of State violence on what was after all a created minority.
Lesley --I'm saying your tone-deaf to the history and reality of the OO and its history of sectarian hatred and violence toward Nationalists. Your article creates this seemingly balanced and reasonable scaffold of moderation -where each side should temper its approach to the other --with you on that --your scaffolding collapses when you build it on the OO and its culture as part of the PUL culture that is being encroached and unfairly treated --after all you are prepared to put up with their warts and shortcoming so why don't pesky fenians like Christy Walsh? There is no redemption for the OO anymore than there could be redemption for the KKK for Black people. And if you feel, opposition and resentment toward the OO is unfair or unwarranted --too bad. Then you need to digest the message your own article could have delivered. I'd gladly talk with you in person --I think you fail to grasp that how the OO might present itself today is different than they used to --damn right they can't get away with their shit anymore but they are still rotten to their core and if they aren't then why are they in an organization maintaining its traditions and values but resentful they are constrained by reality they can get their ass thrown in jail for that kinda shit nowadays.
ReplyDelete