She was just an ordinary woman. Hadn’t had a terrible upbringing and came from a loving and supportive home. She had gone to a relatively well-heeled grammar school, didn’t live in areas where the community was gripped with constant fear of either paramilitaries choking the people so hard by fear, that they could not dare to speak out to rid themselves of this scourge, or fear of security forces raiding her home on the dead of night.
In the late ‘80’s, Belfast was awash with the blood of victims: innocents who, because they were born on the wrong ‘side of the divide’ or the uniform they wore to work made them legitimate targets to be shot in front of their children or blown to smithereens, oftentimes being buried with a little piece of someone else’s body, so destructive was the blast.
To this day, She says She almost ‘fell’ into policing. She had a job She detested but knew She was good at helping people. So, the application went in and on 16 December 1989 the young naïve 22 year old was sworn in …
Her introduction to terrorism came merely weeks after She joined. Donned in her freshly ironed skirt and very hideous regulation American tan tights, She pulled her long hair into a pony tail and set off with the lads on a foot patrol. Approaching the station on the return dander She heard pops and within a split second She was being trailed along the ground by a colleague, unceremoniously ripping the shit out of the newly acquired tights!! Effing and geffing at said colleague "have you gone mad?! Look at the fkg state of my tights and knees!"
Popping……… Gunfire.
Her second encounter with the horror of what was ‘The Troubles’ again, didn’t take too long to enter her world. A colleague was abducted, tortured, blasted in the face with a shotgun and dumped like an old dog by the side of the road. The station, for the days he was missing, was the eeriest atmosphere She had ever encountered. The normal jesting, carrying on and joviality that She enjoyed so much about her job was put on hold until they got their colleague back, for they knew all too well, he would not be returned alive ... (if ever ).
She continued working, getting on with colleagues, victims and more surprisingly most of the suspects. This girl was no shrinking violet though. She could hold her own with colleagues and the community in which She served. There was a phrase She used, The Attitude Test. You treated her with civility you got it back tenfold. Mess her about, abuse her and She took no shit.
In 1993, She had her 3rd taste of man’s inhumanity to man when two IRA bombers went one busy Saturday to a fish shop and planted a no-warning bomb in the shop. The devastation was horrendous, parts of masonry and brick strewn for metres, pieces of flesh and blood scattered to the wind. She remembers very little of that day, apart from standing at the cordon the following day weeping silently, just staring into the gaping hole where She had walked and driven past so many times before.
But, as with everything, life goes on. She married the following year, and the year after that had a baby boy. Life was good and She immersed herself in doing the best job She could.
On Saturday 15th August 1998, She had just returned home after having a lovely afternoon shopping with in-laws. She was pregnant for a second time. Work rang….
‘You’re casualty bureau trained aren’t you?’
‘Yes but what’s happened?’
The strained voice on the other end of the phone merely replied: ‘huge bomb in Omagh, multiple fatalities, get to FCIC an hour ago.’!
When She arrived, She was detailed to be hospital liaison officer. Her role was to get descriptions from the guys on the ground of body parts found. She then called around all the hospitals hoping to find a victim which had been brought in ‘minus’ that part ... She went into ‘mode’ even though the names on the whiteboard of missing people had now reached hundreds. Every time someone was found, whether injured, deceased or returned home, their name was rubbed off the list. On the Sunday She received a call: ‘foot, wearing blue, pink, purple and white striped sock, blue painted toenails’. She never did find out who the owner of the foot was.
The bureau was wound up shortly after the last victim was positively identified by DNA. The de-briefing as it was back in the day was ‘great jobs guys, everyone ok?’ She put it to the back of her head, after all, She hadn’t been subjected to the screams, hadn’t had to her wade through body parts and flesh.
As her baby girl continued to grow inside her, She readied herself for the new addition but found herself being plagued by the same nightmare 〰 She was having that little long awaited for princess but then delivered the baby with an adult sized foot being covered by a striped sock. So now, She was plagued with horrors in her mind during every sleeping moment. Of course, when her daughter was born four weeks early, no large foot, no striped sock to be found. So She concentrated on her little family and being the best mum and police officer She could.
Years of relative normality followed, until out of the blue She was back in that large room with the whiteboard with the names of all the ghostly names. She was on that same phone, but now, She could only hear screams … At the time She has never heard the screams of loved ones searching despairingly for family, or the screams of the injured and dying ... She has been changed as a person. She has to have been.
As her baby girl continued to grow inside her, She readied herself for the new addition but found herself being plagued by the same nightmare 〰 She was having that little long awaited for princess but then delivered the baby with an adult sized foot being covered by a striped sock. So now, She was plagued with horrors in her mind during every sleeping moment. Of course, when her daughter was born four weeks early, no large foot, no striped sock to be found. So She concentrated on her little family and being the best mum and police officer She could.
Years of relative normality followed, until out of the blue She was back in that large room with the whiteboard with the names of all the ghostly names. She was on that same phone, but now, She could only hear screams … At the time She has never heard the screams of loved ones searching despairingly for family, or the screams of the injured and dying ... She has been changed as a person. She has to have been.
Her story unfortunately is not unique, countless other She’s and He’s try to dispel the demons. Some have managed to permanently have peace, but that has only left other victims behind in spouses, mothers, fathers and their children. She was nearly down that road herself.
Every anniversary She posts a simple message:
How do I know this? Because She ... is me.
Lesley is a former RUC officer, now involved in peace and reconciliation workshops.
Every anniversary She posts a simple message:
Even though I never found out what your name was, whether you survived or not, what you looked like in your entirety - I’ll never forget you, the girl who wore the striped sock and had blue nail varnish on her toes ... I’ll always remember you.
How do I know this? Because She ... is me.
Lesley is a former RUC officer, now involved in peace and reconciliation workshops.
From the blurb for First Response put on by Derry Playhouse
ReplyDeleteAfter a director in the Derry Playhouse read this piece, Lesley was asked if she would like to become involved with a production called First Response, which told the stories of the people on the frontline who were the first on scene during the Conflict.
Lesley was reluctant, as she had never before mid 2019 shared her experiences with anyone, even her colleagues or family. The piece had only been written for her, as a form of cathartic release. After some persuasion by her friend Anne who had also taken part in a production by the Theatre of Witness, she agreed. Her main reason was selfish she says, she needed to ‘Say sorry to my kids and parents, for the dreadful life choices I’d made in my personal life, two failed marriages, depression and outbursts of anger.’ Then came the undeniable need to rehumanise the person wearing the uniform. The need to say to others ‘I know you have suffered, but we did too. I’m a mum first and foremost and I wanted to let others know that it was also our families which suffered too. My kids from they were wee tots knew NEVER to get into mummy or daddy’s car before them.’ The war was a dirty one, by God it was horrendous, maybe now we can accept that there were wrongs done all ALL sides and try to make this place amazing for our kids and their kids.
That's quite a piece of writing Lesley. Welcome to TPQ.
ReplyDeleteThis is another side to the conflict we rarely hear about the people who are there to assist and help in the aftermath of a terrible injustice carried out by whichever combatant, agree or disagree with Lesley and her career path in life she had a job to do same as many others enjoyed reading this article as I do others who have shared their life experince on here
ReplyDeleteThere isn't really another side to the conflict, just our side and we suffered while the rest all got on with their lives and had a good time, even when we were killing them. That is why we have the right to visit houses and tell people to shut up.
DeleteIt doesn't take away from nor add to the legitimacy of our experiences during the conflict to be able to see that others had an experience too.
My problem with 'She' is what did she expect...let's get real, 'She' joined a police force who were, still are, involved in a very violent conflict....
ReplyDeleteIs 'She', wanting puppy dog tears????? Ain't getting them from me. Front line paramedics, get my vote...But someone who wears a gun for a job and then cries because someone dies at the hand of another gun...
Maybe 'She' should grow some balls.....
Let's face it Quillers, 'She' would have pulled the trigger and left another family to grieve like the victims of Omagh....
Lesley comments
DeleteI’d like to reply to ‘Frankie’ I think the fact that I’m still alive, still survive and living a great life is testimony I have a set of balls.... I wore a gun yes, however never fired it in anger. Because no 1 pointed a gun at me.... then yes - I’d have fired - you think I’m going to be a sitting duck? No - but unlike you, I see why others in the conflict joined the conflict... I’ve a heart I treat everyone as I find them.... I only wish I could say the same about you. But -
Sean Mallory comments
ReplyDeleteAhhhhh, that was beautiful and very touching...I’m in bits here....nothing to do with any explosions though...........no striped socks at Loughlinisland or blue nail polish in Sean Graham’s nor call outs to trick or treating parties that have gone astray.....ah, well, maybe next time while you wait for the offy to open.....COVID is such a bitch!
Sean what the fuck has an ordinary beat copper got to do with massacres? That was Special Branch involved.
DeleteThere's an eye-opening trend of dehumanizing on this post.
Sean Mallory comments
DeleteSteve R,
Ordinary beat cop...from the RUC?!??!?!?!?!? Are you serious? Seriously Steve, I have to laugh at the incredulous belief that Dixon of Dark Green was the norm here? Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?
De-humanising.......far from it. Would a member of the Carlingue writing about how the military actions of the French partisans play upon your delicate sensitivities?.....probably so if you came from that French community but when you don’t their self-pity doesn’t exact empathy especially when on the receiving end of the execution of their duties and ‘execution’ being very apt here!
Lesley comments
DeleteSean your opinion is just that, opinion. If you think every peeler was ‘out to get’ innocent Catholics because we were all somehow in cahoots with the loyalist paramilitaries then there’s really not a lot I can say about it apart from you’re deluded, as much of a sectarian as those you’re demonising. I do hope some day you find peace and a better understanding of what the truth was. And by the way - I’m not condoning collusion... it happened but not on my shift. Take care
Sean Mallory comments
DeleteI never said anything of what you remarked about in your comment. But I do maintain that the force was inherently sectarian and those that joined it, for whatever reason, worked to that ethos.
And you state that collusion didn’t happen on your shift.....what a blatant lie that is Lesley....how dare you talk about truth when you make such statements.... I can’t believe that you would treat the Nationalist community with such contempt and then seek their pity....such arrogance and condescension.
Collusion or more realistically directing murder were being orchestrated long before you joined and you were only too well aware of it...the Shoot to Kill policy operated under the full acknowledgement and direction of your Chief Constable was still very much under investigation by English cops....so you joined knowing full well what the RUC were capable off.....
You Lesley, like so many, when confronted with the illegal activities of your colleagues simply turned the head and in doing so not only failed at what a police officer should be, but failed all those people who were murdered by the force that you served in and was supposed to be protecting them. The delusion is and was how you saw your life as a cop....that is the delusion.
Perhaps if you were start with the truth then you might receive a more sympathetic ear.....until then don’t count on it.....
Looks to me that she is saying nothing more than she did not personally collude. That would not make her a liar.
DeleteThe RUC undoubtedly colluded to an extent that ostensibly perplexed the British Prime Minister. The IRA also killed and maimed a lot of innocent people which we knew before we joined. Didn't stop us. How much responsibility do we as individual volunteers, therefore, bear for IRA atrocities?
Nor do I think the above piece is about seeking to draw down sympathy: merely the recounting of an experience.
Sean Mallory comments
DeleteCollusion whether personal or not within that organisation is collusion when you turn your head the other way which she and many of her colleagues did. So she is a liar when she declares not on her shift for she is implying that collusion or direction as I prefer to call it never happened. She failed as a police officer when she did that. How many living rooms did she sit in the victims of ’not on her shift’ and later knowing that it was her colleagues that were responsible….did she tell the relatives, not on my shift!
All this article is, is a cry for sympathy….oh, boohoo, poor me, look what I suffered on the Shankill…..but I didn’t suffer the same degree of trauma while sitting in those living rooms for I turned my head the other way
By veering off and comparing the actions of a State sponsored police force with that of the actions of insurgents is not a fair comparison. One is supposedly there to protect all the State’s citizens and uphold the law, the other isn’t.
This isn’t about the IRA and what they or their volunteers are responsible for. They did not represent the State and what they or their members are responsible for or share a responsibility for is irrelevant to this article.
I doubt even Perry Mason could prove collusion on that basis - the definition is so broad as to make it worthless.
DeleteNor has she denied or implied that collusion has not happened. She is saying she personally did not collude.
You must be reading a different article from me and most others. The last thing it strikes me as is a cry for sympathy - merely the recounting of an experience. If she did suffer on the Shankill should she not be allowed to say it? When we consider that so many women have recounted their experiences (which include pain) as a result of the action of IRA activists, they can't all be dismissed as whiners seeking sympathy. If your view of her is the same as your view of the McCartney women, Paul Quinn's mother, Mairia Cahill, there seems to be a common thread that runs through it which sounds much less authentic than the positions you seek to lambast.
In terms of the person who sustained the wrong the comparison between the IRA and the state actors is very much the same unless you are making the argument that the victims of IRA activity have endured less suffering. That would create a hierarchy of victims, whereby the experience of some victims merit a hearing more than others.
The difference only applies when we talk of perpetrators. The state because it claims to be a different class of moral actor has to be held to a level of account and scrutiny that the non state actor is not. Even when the state is supposed to be there to protect all its citizens that in no way diminishes the harm sustained to whoever sustained it.
The IRA set itself up as an alternative authority to the state with the right to take life and sought to invalidate the state's claim to have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
So the role of the IRA and every other actor is very relevant to this article.
Hey Sean,
DeleteGiven the extensive penetration of the Provos by the various BritInt spooks would you not think it could be said that Republican action was also the result of collusion?
Lesley comments
Delete@Sean Mallory – Gender didn’t come into it for me, I was a police officer, pure and simple and I didn’t expect any allowances just because I had a set of tits! Sean, this is just one tiny little snippet of my life out of 53 years. It was written several years ago back when my PTSD was first diagnosed and at it’s worst. It was never written for anyone else to see. If you see my twitter profile and comments, you will find that I call out wrongs on every side. If I had written about every memory I had of the horrendous things I’d seen, I’d still be writing. I have close friends who were in the IRA and others who were in loyalist paramilitaries. I do not question or debunk their stories, because the memories and experiences they have are THEIRS. Their trauma is no less or worse than mine… but that thinking only comes with maturity and understanding. Perhaps you just haven’t reached that point yet! Quite frankly Sean, I think that you have made yourself out to look like a bitter twisted bigot, but that’s something that I can’t change. That’s your issue – not my problem. I think you’re kind of stubborn, unempathetic thinking is definitely in the minority. As I said before, if you want to carry on your life hating – you’re more than welcome to that life, for me though, I’ll carry on trying to understand others view on what was most definitely a dirty war on all sides.
Larry Hughes comments
ReplyDeleteI think looking back a lot of people feel they made, by today's standards, shocking life choices. Kids and spouses neglected. That's why I found Billy Hutchinson's book review interesting also. None of us getting any younger but I guess that makes us the Lucky ones. I'm certain a lot of decent people in the unionist community joined THEIR police force to serve society and do good. We all called them if burgled or general problems. They were generally very professional. On the other hand some were loyalists in uniform. They were of course very well paid. That still didn't stop UDR people with full time jobs and part time dads army clowns on the pigs back wanting to murder innocent RCs. I'm happy to see this article on the Quill and Steve R and Peter too. They are a welcome alternative viewpoint and long may it continue.
Lesley comments
DeleteThanks Larry, I thank Anthony for his encouragement and kind words, we may not agree politically but it shows when you take people as you find them, respect and understanding goes a long way. We’re actually very similar:)
People seem to forget that nearly 20% of the RUC were RCs. Were they out to brutalise catholics? That number would have been far higher but for the threat. While the RUC had its fair share of nasty bastards (who mostly policed Linfield matches!) the majority of peelers were good police, who provided a service to all.
ReplyDeleteMany of them did brutalise Catholics. Same as with prison staff who were Catholics. Some of the most brutal were Catholics. The least vicious were the English ones. The most civil cops I came across from DMSU were English. The RUC were not popular. I remember a number of brothers I was at school with joining them and the criticism of them from people not involved with republicanism was fierce. At the same time, Catholic or Protestant, many joined for the reasons they joined and continue to join elsewhere. Once in the culture I guess had to make an impact.
DeleteSo catholics brutalised catholics for being catholics? Not buying that. Maybe for being republicans.
ReplyDeleteThe important thing is that they along with the army brutalised people. And they brutalised people who were not republican but did so because the people happened to live in a republican area. The mass screening programmes of the early 1979s were an exercise (by the army) in brutalising the community youth.
DeletePeter,
ReplyDeleteThe majority of peelers were good police. How do you define that? Do good police stop their comrades from assaulting minors? I've been assaulted as a minor, watch other minors being assaulted, yet to see an intervention
An English academic once said to me that the one characteristic common to all cops is that they will lie in court to put you down.
DeleteA human institution with all the failings that go with it, I guess.
Lesley comments
DeleteAnthony,
That English academic was wrong - never once lied in court or indeed anywhere else, hard to believe but I’m a shite liar so it was always better to just fess up if I’d fkd up lol
Lesley,
ReplyDeleteI’ve a heart I treat everyone as I find them.... I only wish I could say the same about you. But -
But what exactly....? You have no idea how I treat people...None what so ever.
I think the fact that I’m still alive, still survive and living a great life is testimony I have a set of balls....
Has the thought, the reason you are alive etc, (like me and every other person on this rock today).... is simply down to fate, chance...luck, ever entered into your equation?
I wore a gun yes, however never fired it in anger. Because no 1 pointed a gun at me....
British State forces pointed guns at me, asking me for my name, age, address etc more times than I can remember in Ardoyne during the conflict. The Provisional IRA, INLA, not once did they put me against a wall and point a gun at me. In fact the only people who I seen with guns during the conflict were British State forces.
then yes - I’d have fired - you think I’m going to be a sitting duck? No.
The simple fact you walked the streets of Belfast, Derry where ever, wearing a police uniform made you a sitting duck. Again, maybe the reason you are alive to talk about things is simply while on patrol, you walked down a street and turned left and not right.
- but unlike you, I see why others in the conflict joined the conflict...
Why did you join the conflict Lesley? We know I didn't. I circumvented the conflict.
"So, the application went in and on 16 December 1989 the young naïve 22 year old was sworn in …"....
That tells me we are almost the same age. How naïve were you? Didn't you see the riots during the 1981 hunger strike on your TV as a 14yr old, hear stories about shoot to kill? If not, surely you much have watched the carnage that unfolded after the murder of 3 IRA volunteers in Gib., that led to the brutal murders of two members of the British army in 1988.
What did you expect when you joined the conflict?......... Cagney and Lacey?
Some of the comments on here are so incredibly disappointing.
ReplyDeleteThis is the story of a woman who joined an organisation, one that she acknowledges was a participant in a conflict. Her story and experiences are valid, and we are privileged to read them.
I was born on the Falls - an accident of birth. I like to think, if I was born on the Shankill, I would almost certainly be a strong unionist, but I would not have gotten involved with loyalist paramilitaries. But I can imagine that the RUC might well have seen like a good option.
Many critics of loyalism, correctly if a bit too broadly in my opinion, point out that the higher calibre individuals wanting to maintain the union joined the RUC, whilst the lower calibre ones joined the UDR, and the dregs of loyalism joined the UVF and UDA.
The RUC was an organisation that needed reformed, I don't think many people would argue against that. The RUC convicted loyalists for murder at a much higher rate than they did republicans. The RUC also convicted some of its own members for very serious crimes. The RUC also, from the 1980s anyway, confronted Orange aggression, often at serious personal cost.
Members of every armed organisation that took part in the conflict killed, murdered, tortured, robbed, abducted, and had members who got away with wholesale human rights abuses.
I read every book I can about the RUC, particularly from former officers. It would be comforting for a lot of belligerents to think they revelled in murders of Catholics, but it isn't true. Some did, the great majority didn't.
Some RUC members were villains. Some were heroes. Most were probably fairly middle of the road, and could veer into heroics and villainy.
As a standalone piece of writing, She is excellent. As an insight into the workings and culture of the RUC, it is but one story among thousands.
Time it seems has not given rise to reflection: after many wars combatants come together to better understand what set them apart. Truth being the first casualty in war there is no point in perpetuating the casualty by continuing to look at each other through sights. At the same time any engagement should not be about holding hands around a campfire and singing. People have experiences which should not be set aside to suit a new narrative. But they should draw on that experience to see how others have had different but no less real experiences. I think there is something to be learned from Mohammed Ali who said if a person believes at 50 what they believed at 20, they have wasted 30 years of their life. And I always go back to the point that we had too many bastards on our side for them all to have been on the other side.
DeleteBrandon,
ReplyDeleteIn what way are they disappointing? Comments are just a verbal manifestation of thoughts. They can only be disappointing if you have a boundary of acceptable input which negates the input. Peoples thoughts are their own, expressing them is their right. If people are disappointed, so be it.
Brandon didn't say anything different. It is the right of people to express their thoughts and the equal right of people to express their thoughts of disappointment at what others say. Happens in the marketplace of ideas which I would hope is what draws people to TPQ.
Delete@ David
DeleteI felt the comments were disappointing because there was a distinct lack of measure applied to them. People talked at Lesley, announced their grudges against the RUC, diminished human experiences.
Lesley had her piece published on a blog owned by a former member of an organisation that would have killed her. Her mind is clearly open - I feel anyone taking a step in this open direction deserves to be judged in their own merits.
Billy Hutchinson got a fairer hearing than Lesley did, and he's a sectarian murderer, an unapologetic one at that, who, I think, shamefully smeared his victims.
So, like I said, disappointing. But then again, it was disappointment that got me writing for TPQ, so even that can be of benefit.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteAli believed there was no God but Allah at 22 through to his death at 74. So...
People don't always practice the wisdom of what the preach! Even on the blog here we set out positions we think are right but can we hold to them in all circumstances? We don't lead faultless lives.
DeleteThis is the most read piece on the blog since the death of Bobby Storey. Says something about the level of interest in it. Whether that interest is approving or disapproving, we have no way of telling but the commentary on Twitter would suggest it has been well received for the most part.
ReplyDeleteAM
ReplyDeleteGreat debate and a great forum thanks to yourself and Carrie, these are the voices we want to hear all the different sides that have been involved in the conflict known as the Irish Troubles, it’s good to hear an RUC side of things maybe if we begin listen more it might help us to understand what this sorry mess is really all about
Lesley comments
DeleteI’m so pleased that you have found the debate interesting - this is exactly the kind of peace building work I’m now involved in. We conduct workshops whereby we give everyone a ‘voice’ from ex combatants on all sides to youth and their struggles with living with their parents traumas etc. If you’re interested in attending any workshops give Anthony your email address to be passed onto me.
An excellent piece and a welcome contribution to the Quill. Thank you Lesley.
ReplyDeleteI liked the differentiation between the officer persona and Lesley, as if Lesley was never the one who attended the aftermath of Frizzell's, just the officer. It indicates the mentality that was needed to be in the RUC, and also indicates why people like Allan Moore behaved the way he did. Whenever the IRA set out to kill police officers, it was always with the view that the officer was irrelevant, as the officer was merely a cog in the machine. Whether that was dehumanisation or ignoring the obvious is one open to interpretation, but at least Lesley has shown the human face behind the uniform.
Christopher,
Delete"Whenever the IRA set out to kill police officers, it was always with the view that the officer was irrelevant, as the officer was merely a cog in the machine."
Spot on, but we viewed them as our family members which they were. Doesn't matter what three letter outfit someone belonged too, as Anthony said both sides were full of cunts but that's not to say there weren't decent people on both sides.
Lesley comments
DeleteChristopher Owens
I guess that’s exactly how it was. In work, I knew I had to just ‘get on with it’. At home, I was a mum, a daughter I tried to keep my professional life separate as I wanted to shield my parents and kids. Mine was not a ‘normal’ life, but then many others lives weren’t normal either…. I’m however very blessed to have been able to help victims of crime from all backgrounds.
Sean Mallory comments
ReplyDeleteThe Parry Mason remark and isolating me and loading the pigs on to your wagon is such a poor tactic … reminds me so much of the Big Cell….and one quite often SF use …
Gender doesn’t enter in to it and you know that and I explained privately to you why I chose to take that stance with regarding those mentioned above. I’ll know for again.
The IRA is relevant to her in her singular explanation of her claim to be suffering….she fails to mention how much Unionist violence added or detracted to her suffering…..her answer is typical of those claiming to have served all of the community but then has only memories of one side of that community’s actions…not on my shift is even more absurd….all horseshit in my eyes and that is why I responded how I did and still do…Dragging in the IRA the way you have is ridiculous…
The Perry Mason comment holds good. The Cell 26 tactic tactic is to shout liar at people and then stick the fingers in your ears.
DeleteAs for the pigs - we talking about the cops or the revolutionary pigs who think they have all the answers and snap and snarl at the slightest sign of disagreement?
Gender doesn't enter into it, just that in the four cases mentioned women seem exclusively to be on the receiving end of it. Your explanations to me in private as to why you vilify people with genuine grievances can hardly be convincing - why not put them in public?
How often have you spoken out about the suffering caused by republicans? Yet she is condemned for writing about an experience that seeks nothing more than to coexist beside your narrative. It does not even try to upend your narrative, like you seek to do with hers.
The IRA claimed to be fighting a war on behalf of the Irish people. A nonsense but that was their claim. An army that claimed to wage war on behalf of all the people yet can only remember the suffering of one side. We could even organise a march for half the truth on that logic.
Are you responsible for IRA war crimes that took place not on your watch? If you say no are you a liar? Why should it be any different for her when she refuses to accept collusion on her watch.
Dragging the IRA in is ridiculous? Let the readers be the judge of that. But it does sound such a Shinner response.
Sean - Who says I didn't think Loughinisland or the Bookies were appalling atrocities? Send me a victim or survivor of either of those atrocities, and I will willingly invite them onto a panel to tell their stories in public.... You say I'm DELUDED?? What's your story then? Fancy telling it to me in public, since you seem to disregard MY truth so willingly? Are YOU so deluded about what the IRA got up to?
DeleteI can guarantee I didn't tell any relative of collusion because I was not aware of it! What the fk do you think I was? Wonder Woman? I attending every incident that ever required the police to attend? FKs sake, I know I worked a lot but I did get some time off !!! If you think that, then youre definitely deluded. Yes, I was in a Stat organisation but I did my very best I could for EVERYONE I came in contact with, no matter who....
Am I really a 'PIG' Sean?? Really?? I've been called worse I guess, but it fazes me not, because it merely shows what sort of bitter and twisted bigot YOU are.... HAve I until now, called you names? Have I questioned you on any story you may have? No, I haven't. Yet for some reason you have questioned my reasoning for even writing the piece, questioned my personal integrity, questioned even the calls I went to! What explanations were you prepared to privately share, that you weren't prepared or indeed BRAVE enough to share in public?? I may be a lot of things, Sean if that's even your real name, I'm a bolshy bitch, I've probably not spent as much time with my kids as I should, but I've NEVER been frightened of speaking MY TRUTH!!! You can shout from the rooftops as to what you think I am or what you think I've done - but that does not make it the truth.....
Leslie,
ReplyDeleteyou seem to be for reconciliation
And yet you're not reconciled to your own past
Your narrative avoids ownership of Unionism's supremacist history
Nor is it reconciled with the fundamentals of cause & affect
Fuck and you'll be fucked
Your shit-hole Statelet was conceived counter to democratic principles
It was born of the threat of violence
(Symbolically and literally signed-off for in blood)
A Statelet maintained by a gerrymandered Protestant Parliament for a PROTESTANT people
Sustained and policed by a Protestant police force backed up by a Protestant militia (B-Specials)
All for your Protestant people and their arsehole-licking lackeys
Is it any wonder that there's still a few boyo's out there who'd try and tell us "we didn't kill a half-fuckin nuff of them cunts"
In the final analysis Leslie, if we are collectively to transcend the past, those who propped the rotten Unionist regime would do well to be somewhat more contrite
As the Bishop of Galway, Eamon Casey, used to say "Give a little, it'd help a lot"
Lesley comments
Delete@Henry Joy, my comments to Sean relate to you also in response.
Lesley,
Deletethe genesis of all conflict, whether between family members, between communities or between states is always about an imposition of will.
The British imposed their will on the Irish people and upon Irish affairs for centuries. That's the first given.
Political Unionism opposed British Government Legislation. In opposing the Third Home Rule Bill they opposed the will of a majority of the electorate. They also opposed the Rule of Law. Unionism's opposition to the 'will of the people' and 'to the rule of law' are irrevocable givens too.
It's also an undisputed given that Political Unionism in forming their militia (UVF), then attempted to pursue Clausewitz's argument that "war is a continuation of politics by other means". Not only was Unionism prepared to disregard the 'will of the people' and the 'rule of law', they were prepared to force their will under arms. These are all irrefutable facts.
If you care for a fuller understanding of my position on these matters then read my further replies to Steve. For now I'll hold to my argument that you're far from reconciled from the narrative of our shared past.
Your 'sectarian' charge is lazy, uninformed and unsustainable.
Those whom are put upon, especially those put upon outside of the rule of law have a right and perhaps even a duty to push back.
The days of 'Croppies Lie Down' are well and truly over and they sure as hell ain't ever, ever, ever coming back.
My biggest issue with the Lesley's of this world is simply 'she' doesn't seem take any form of collective responsibility. For Lesley to claim collusion didn't happen on her watch is nonsense. It did. She may not have seen it or played any part in collusion but it happened on her watch...
ReplyDeleteThe RUC's grubby finger prints are all over Omagh.
Aye Frankie, when an Op goes wrong it's always the Brits fault..
DeleteHJ,
ReplyDelete"Your shit-hole Statelet was conceived counter to democratic principles
It was born of the threat of violence"
Aye, the threat of violence that Collins and the ilk started in the South.
I take it you've been on the turps with that quote mine "Protestant state"..
The full statement which people like yourself always ignore shows the context it was made in, and it was regarding a boast from the south regarding a 'Catholic State'.
"In the final analysis Leslie, if we are collectively to transcend the past, those who propped the rotten Unionist regime would do well to be somewhat more contrite"
Fair enough, when the Shinners and their lackeys apologise for all their futile murderous shite I should expect the same from those who commited crimes on our side.
You used to be one of the more progressive Republicans on here and one who I enjoyed conversing with. What happened, or is the mask just slipping a bit?
Steve - being progressive does not mean sanitising a view just to sound progressive or conform to others' perspective on progress. Henry Joy is one of the more enlightened types so that should convey to you the visceral hostility that the RUC managed to generate amongst a wide band of nationalist opinion. I am no more forgiving of the force now than I was back in the day. But that does not prohibit me from seeing that others have a different experience from me which I am free to comment on and disagree with without "otherising" the bearer of the experience.
DeleteFor the most part, had we been born in a different place we would have had different allegiances. Pure reason had little to do with where we ended up. Situational logic did.
Steve,
Delete"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." Orwell's 1984
Living in this epoch of distortive narratives isn't easy; from Trump's alternative facts and 'stolen election' storyline, to the Brexit fiasco and to the comments from reactionary revisionists, including those of his Provisional Sinn Féin colleagues, arising from Brian Stanley's Kilmichael/Narrow Water tweet its becoming increasing challenging, maybe even virtually impossible to find a sustainable or cohesive narrative on so many issues. Incohesive or fractured narratives ultimately undermines order and serves only chaos.
Whereas I won't contend that Leslie's piece is deliberately distortive it is in my opinion implicitly so ... the addition of a short preamble could have set the context for her contribution better, thereby limiting potentials for unnecessary misunderstandings (She is involved in peace and reconciliation workshops after all).
And now Steve to your own distortions of the narrative
The Ulster Covenant signed by almost 1/2 a million Irish Unionists in 1912 was in defiance of the British Parliament and also of democratic principles. If Unionists had not sought to rise a militia its unlikely that the Irish Volunteers would have emerged in such strength. The creation of the UVF sucked all the wind out of the moderate nationalist Irish Parliamentary Party's sails and allowed the IRB come to the fore. In any event, its a matter of record that the formation of the UVF preceded that of 'Óglaigh na hÉireann' and thereby precipitated the revolutionary phase.
Likewise, the collective behaviour of Unionists visited upon their Nationalist neighbours is well documented and also almost universally accepted.
The way things are shaping up, Unionists would be well advised to find some humility, own their past, repent for their ould sins and demonstrate a tad more contrition.
Fair point , I didn't give his perspective enough gravitas. But it's a two way street. It's ridiculous to tar all the cops with the same brush and I even recall reading on here from either Christopher or Larry (years back) that even when they were in custody there were decent cops who hated the rotten ones.
DeleteIt would be the same as me holding all Provos responsible for Teebane, a nonsense.
How can anybody seriously "repent for their ould sins" when we are reffering to actions of a century ago? Do you want the Unionist community to drop down on it's knees and beg forgiveness?
DeleteI can tell you right now that will never happen. If you want to give commentary to the actions of the past that's your right, but you and I will be looking at these things through the prism of opinions we hold now, and those shaped by our experiences growing up in conflict and the stories told in our respective communities.
I had this same conversation on Slugger recently. I can bring up historical whataboutry to the cows come home as can you. But what purpose does it actually serve?
The aul "We've been sinned against but we have never sinned" doesn't wash with me. Distortions of the narrative is a glib jib, there was a reason why the original UVF was raised and given the theocratic state the South became it seems good that it did.
If the roles were reversed you'd think the same.
Steve,
Deletemany find it challenging to transcend their own communities' foundation 'myths'. I can allow for that and indeed understand that conservation of their own foundation narratives equally relies upon the fabrication of supporting counter-narratives for the other side.
If we are to collectively put down all the historical baggage of the conflict then we have to engage in some kind of accurate self-reflection; accurate reflection which, yes allows for the mores of the time but is then served up with appropriate integration of the values, understandings, accepted best practices and norms of the present.
Distorted or incomplete historical narratives only stymie that process. If we are to construct anything decent, better and sustainable, good sense surely suggests, we must look first to the foundations. Just like I'm sure we can agree that it's senseless to build upon either sand or upon a floodplain, it's also futile to perpetuate flawed foundational myths.
You've been around here long enough Steve to witness my repeated deconstructions of the Republican narrative. My invitation to you is to step up to the plate and reciprocate with a parallel process for the narrative of political Unionism.
Larry Hughes comments
DeleteSteve R
'How can anybody seriously repent for their ould sins when we are referring to a century ago?
I wonder how you feel about BLM and statues of slave traders getting torn down. Or about all this taking the knee carry on. Was slavery maybe ok coz the Brits did it? Or maybe coz they were perhaps fenian black bastards, savages or terrorists or whatever the slander used back in the day? Lol
Steve - while my inclination is towards Henry Joy's historical take and his prudent comments on foundational myths, I wonder if an observer to the overall debate will be reminded of the dreary steeples.
DeleteBrandon,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the tardiness of my reply. I had man flu therefore on deaths door. Again though why disappointing? Your valid points have been made with structure and reason. Personal feelings portray a condescending tone Which wittingly or not cast moral aspersions against previous commentators.
The reason I asked was I see this line of debating technique being used more often, where instead of reasoned arguments emotions take precedent.
Fair play to the author, however, she belonged to an organisation that victimised many contributors on this site. Can an exchange of ideas not be welcomed, polite and robust without personal feelings that while intitiled offer not but distraction?
How can the expression of grudges diminish human experiences? It's a common human experience.
David fucking about aside get tested!
DeleteAnthony,
ReplyDeleteOf course it is his right. The contribution to debate I am dubious of. The nitpicking on the Ali quote was purely to irritate you. I am just that petty
Steve,
ReplyDeleteIt's the head I need testing first. I didn't qualify for a test, no symptoms
Stevie/Lesley,
ReplyDeleteStevie....
"Aye Frankie, when an Op goes wrong it's always the Brits fault.."
All I know is none of the Op's were my fault. I played no part in the conflict. I didn't sign up to the conflict, Lesley did. And the organization she signed up to was involved in war crimes and the cover up of war crimes. And it happened on her watch. She has to take a collective responsibility whether she likes it or not. She says she knew nothing about collusion. I believe her. But to say it didn't happen on her watch is total bullshit.
"Aye Frankie, when an Op goes wrong it's always the Brits fault.."
No sometimes they set out to do what was planned and kill as many people as possible. A perfect example is Dublin and Monaghan.
I don't buy into Lesley's claim " So, the application went in and on 16 December 1989 the young naïve 22 year old was sworn in … "
Stevie here is Part one of five 10min long videos of news clips from 1988/89 of the conflict. I am meant to believe Lesley didn't for one second think there was the real possibility of her losing her life when she signed up to the conflict?
Lesley,
Were you really that naïve in 1988/89? Why did you decide to join the conflict...money, truth and justice, fighting terrorism? Why did you want to wear a gun for a living?
If you ACTUALLY read the piece without blinded bigoted eyes, you would read that I never had had my house raided like catholics and those of my friends did, you would have read, that I never saw the direct impact of terrorism. You didn't READ the fact that I joined because I hated the job I was in and I knew I was good at helping people! So yes - if that is my crime you accuse me of - naivety and wanting to help people - FKG GUILTY AS CHARGED!
Delete"No sometimes they set out to do what was planned and kill as many people as possible. A perfect example is Dublin and Monaghan."
ReplyDeleteThat was the UVF frankie, they were more than capable back then. You were inferring the RUC had a hand in Omagh which is frankly bullshit. That was an Irish Republican bomb and is it a war crime when there's no war going on?
Frankie
ReplyDeleteThe fingerprints of five or more members of the Real IRA identified through the dogged campaigning of members of the Omagh Relatives Group led by Michael Gallagher and the good investigative journalism of John Ware were on the Omagh bomb; no one else's. That said the RUC investigation was disgracefully incompetent as laid out so excoriatingly by the O'Loan inquiry.
Steve R
It is well established that the perpetrators of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings belonged to the Glennane Gang which was saturated by off-duty RUC and UDR members.
Lesley
ReplyDeleteCan I thank you for the bravery that you have shown by describing your story on TPQ and in facing some of the hate-filled responses you have been subjected to on this forum.
Your discussion of the PTSD you have suffered is very important. No matter what their involvement in the conflict; people suffering mental health conditions as a result need expert help and should feel free to articulate their experiences. As should military veterans of the Afghan and Iraqi conflicts regardless of one's views on the legality and morality of them.
Good luck in the future, Lesley.
Barry - none of the responses have been hate filled. They have been sharp and critical, even off the wall. But hate filled is not how I think Lesley has been treated here. I would think we would have failed were we to have permitted a hate filled critique to be thrown her way. If we have allowed it we need to have it pointed out. We moved to protect you from bullying on the site and will do likewise for anyone else.
DeleteBarry,
Deleteyour allegations are vacuous, vague and unsustainable
Be specific in your allegations
Which responses and which parts specifically do you deem 'hate-filled'?
Clarify please
Barry - thank you... I just found the comments pretty standard from bigots.... Refusing to accept anyone else's viewpoint other than their own. Quite sad really..... And yet again - because you have a different viewpoint - they are classed as 'vaccuous' lol Quite frankly - I've had 30 years of certain people claiming I'm 'this' or 'that' without actually knowing a thing about me my family or indeed my life..... Again, that's not anything I have an issue with - it's their ignorance and arrogance... I've been called a sectarian bastard on twitter by as many loyalists as republicans, have been called a traitor by a few ex colleagues because I have close friends who once were part of the war...... so I must be doing something right. And I have peace in the knowledge that I did good, I impacted people's lives in every community for the better and I continue to do so.....
DeleteStevie,
ReplyDeleteWe both know there is more than credible allegations to show British State Forces fingerprints all over the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
"You were inferring the RUC had a hand in Omagh which is frankly bullshit."
Let's go into the vortex of TPQ Stevie......First read a piece called The Accidental Spy by Chris Fogarty and you will discover not only the RUC's grubby finger prints all over Omagh but also the FBI's (off tangent but if you go down the 'rabbit hole' about the swap of intell with the FBI, Rupert & Omagh, MI5/6...You will come out staring at 9/11). Now read Hidden Evidence In Omagh Bomb Case? by Cáit Trainor. Your first comment on Cáit Trainor's piece........."Does not take learned man, to realise the British are probably protecting a high level human asset within the 'dissident' republican groups"....
What is it Stevie? In one peice on TPQ you openly admit British involvement in Omagh yet on this peice you think any mention of it is "bullshit"......
The BBC reported
"The ombudsman's draft report says that the RUC had information about a planned attack in Omagh 11 days before the 1998 bombing which left 29 dead, but this was not passed to police officers on the ground."
For Lesley to claim that collusion didn't happen on her watch is nonsense. Same as her claim that she didn't know what she was letting herself in for. The news clips I linked above show in graphic detail what she was getting herself into.
Frankie
DeleteWhat I experienced as a youngster, or indeed young adult was perhaps not the same as the part of NI you grew up in....so - yet again, your assuming things about me and my family that I would never dare to assume. What is it they say about 'assuming'? Yet again, you've based your assumptions on a small piece of writing, one which was never supposed to be published - you think thats all I saw? Quite frankly I can see why some people still think that this shit will never end....
Protecting an asset or agent is a damn sight short of having a hand in the genesis or implementation of a plan to bomb. Even the bombers themselves said they fucked up with the placement of the car, gave a wrong location which the cops acted on but sure, keep twisting and turning to absolve the ones who built it and planted it.
DeleteAnd frankie, Cait Trainor on Omagh? Seriously? All the same to you mate I'll give her a pass.
DeleteAnthony, Henry Joy
ReplyDeleteOk the responses were not hate-filled and I apologise for the use of the word "hate". But the tenor of much of what Frankie, Sean Mallory and Henry Joy said in response to Lesley were spiteful lacking in empathy and riven with "whataboutery" and historical grievance.
I would no more have joined the RUC, UDR or British Army than I would have joined the Provisionals. That does not mean I am deaf as to the reasoning behind the choices that those who made them (including paramilitary groups) or dismissive of the traumatic experiences that they went through (including those incarcerated in the H Blocks and the beatings inflicted on Anthony at the age of 14 by the RUC).
Thousands died and tens of thousands more were physically and mentally broken on all sides for absolutely nothing. The more personal accounts from those who suffered and those who caused suffering on all sides the better.
Barry - that's fair enough. I don't agree with the criticism but when I see Henry Joy in particular raise the matters that he does, I do so with an awareness that he has hammered the notion of armed campaigns and the futility they have written into them. Frankie has a plague on all your houses because he can't be accused of having any role in any of it. Sean Mallory was OTT but even here it is part of the online persona he has created for winding up the unionists. While I disagree to some extent with all three there is nothing in what they said that I would consider unacceptable to the site. Lesley is no shrinking violet and is willing to engage and at the same time fight her corner. That she even came to a site like this in a manner that was not deliberately provocative says something.
DeleteBarry,
Deleteexpressing one's frustration and outrage at distortions, whether those distortions are real or even if they are merely inaccurate perceptions, are of themselves acts of authenticity.
They are not of themselves hate-filled (But thank you for withdrawing that charge).
Whereas I might concede there's little or if any empathy in my commentary, I reject your allegation of spite. Read my commentary more closely. There are no personal attacks on anyone, no incitement to hatred nor any calls for revenge.
What I've outlined in my commentary are my attempts at exploring alternative histories, alternative histories which might have had the potential to prevent the necessary conditions emerging which in turn would drive on the conflict, those 'necessary conditions' which initiated the revolutionary phase begun a 100yrs ago and then recreated by subsequent generations of Political Unionism to further sustain the conflict.
Before I finish, I believe it worth repeating Barry, that there's no incitement and no personal attack in my commentary. What I did call for, albeit somewhat tongue in cheek, was for Political Unionism to 'repent and give up their auld sins': for them to acknowledge both their 'sins of commission and sins of omission' and own their dominant role in bringing about the necessary conditions for a conflict which festered for so painfully long.
Call that 'whataboutery' or label it 'historical grievance' if you will but I'll make a bet with any and everyone, even if none of us are around to collect, that when history has become more distant, when all of the players and all their followers are long dead & gone, when it becomes less subjective and a tad more objective, when it's recalled in a similar vein as that of ancient Rome or ancient Greece, that version recorded will resemble more my musings than it will the positions taken by others along the way.
This is why i love TPQ. A wide range of opinions and narratives from across the political divide. A brilliant platform Anthony.
ReplyDeleteThank you Lou
DeleteHenry Joy
ReplyDeleteIf political Unionism should 'repent and give up their ould sins' and acknowledge 'their sins of commission and omission' then so should violent Republicanism transmogrified into latter-day constitutional nationalism.
But neither will; too much blood has flowed under the bridge for either to happen.
Barry,
ReplyDeletethat transmogrification which you call for, though already begun years beforehand, was formalised in '86
These transitions are slow by their nature but the trajectory is clearly visible should you care to look
Come on now Barry, Get with the programme
Haven't you heard Mary Lou's comment to political Unionism of only this week?
"They are British in a partitioned Ireland and they will be British in a united Ireland,"
Don't let your prejudices blind you man!
Henry, I will some day write about the shit that the UVF and Loyalists created, I will also write about the awful way the Police and security services protected touts at the expense of everyone else involved in the conflict. The truth is, at the minute I CANT write about it as I've submitted quite a few issues with my solicitor regarding my previous bosses!
DeleteAs for being an 'arsehole licking lackey' That proves you know fk all about me and my personality - yet you and your bigotry yet again resort to name calling? What are you afraid of? That other republicans might actually see me as a half decent human being?
Since you have taken the incorrect analysis of what I AM or NOT reconciled to - then fire away, fill your boots!!! I will talk and converse to ANYONE, explain anything within my power to, as long as people speak with me in a respectful manner. Once they hurl abuse, names etc based on their blind bigotry, that's when I close off.... Why? because there are certain ears on every side that are deaf, certain eyes that are blind to the atrocities their own communities committed. I am under no illusion the disgusting acts that were committed by all sides. Therefore - if you can't accept MY story as a valid one, thats your problem and certainly not mine... I just choose not to be spoken to like shit on a shoe.
Not really here.....,
ReplyDeleteI have assumed nothing about you or your life. I have questioned why you (now I will assume you are Lesley), decided to pick up a gun for a living. What was your real motivation? Money? We know in the late 80's you were in a 'dead end' job going no where fast. and then one day decided to apply for a job that meant you'd be trained in how to fire a gun. If you are as compassionate as you want me to believe you were back then; Why didn't you become a doctor, nurse, human right lawyer......social worker (the list is endless)?
From The Belfast Telegraph..... First Response: The play starring people who were first at the scene during the Troubles
What was your motivation for picking up a gun and joining the conflict?
My experiences in the mid to late 80's. My parents front door was never kicked in by anyone. The conflict was a back drop to my life. I was too busy trying to come up with excuses so I could explain to my parents why I wasn't going to college but Divis Flats . The rest of my time was taken up with thinking of ideas to get out on a Saturday night to The Bailey Bar and then The BTC to listen to Rockabilly music. In 1989 I went to London for two weeks , I stayed for five years because I was having a good time.....I went to a lot of gigs...
'Not really here'
ReplyDeletetake a closer look at what I've written
Firstly, the intent of my contribution was/is to critique the actions and behaviours of political Unionism. There is no personalised attack on specific individuals. If there is an invalidation of your personal experience then perhaps you'd specify?
The 'arse hole licking lackeys' comment refers to a broad church of all those who accepted and colluded in the establishment and maintenance of an apartheid-like and supremacist system of governance imposed on the CRN communities in the six counties (and that indictment includes those in the 26 who abandoned us to that fate).
Secondly, I vehemently reject your scurrilous allegation of bigotry.
"bigotry
/ˈbɪɡətri/
noun
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction; in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group"
Though my position is indeed unyielding, it is most certainly not unreasoned!
And finally, good luck with the moves towards litigation and redress. I look forward to hearing more of these endeavours, as well as of your past lived experiences during the conflict.
I'll give anyone fair hearing (and support when needed) but seldom a free-ride.
Best,
H.J.
Frankie - again - you ASSUME.... I said I was in a job I detested, NOWHERE did I say it was a 'dead end' job! I was a manager and could - IF I had wanted to progressed in the company.... I joined in the late '80's - WOMEN weren't armed..... Why I didn't go for doctor or whatever is because I chose to help right in the communities... I know many nurses, doctors who have had to see the devastation caused by terrorists bombs and have suffered PTSD - so yet again - your blindness knows no bounds. I tell you what - you just forget about my life and I'll forget about yours eh??
DeleteHenry - you forgot the ' prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group" In the written piece, nowhere did I allign myself to ANY party - much less unionism or loyalism. I never have, and never will.... Never either - did I expect a 'free ride' but what I definitely won't put up with is blinded assumptions about my life when people know fk all about my life or past. I convicted 300 loyalists during the fleg protest, I was battered to within an inch of my life during Drumcree by unionists/loyalists for merely doing my job without fear or favour so I VEHEMENTLY REJECT your assumption that I was part of sectarian collusion with loyalists! A green brick hurts just as much as an orange and we all bleed red.... As for anything else, as I said, I'm pretty sick to death with being tarred with the same brush as those who stepped outside of the law within the security forces.... Just as republicans who were vehemently fighting for justice and a united ireland would be perhaps disgusted at being considered a terrorist based on the actions of the Irish Republican Army.......
DeleteNot Really Here
DeleteYes that other republican myth that the RUC were in cahoots with loyalists and the hundred of times loyalists attacked the RUC at footy matches and band parades didn't happen and the thousands of loyalists imprisoned by the RUC and court system didn't happen either I suppose!!!!
Nrh,
DeleteI don't know if you can relax into this
But if you can't follow what's actually being said then this conversation is going nowhere
How many times do I need to repeat that my criticism has been about the actions & behaviours of a collective group, the collective which I call Political Unionism
Again ... there has been no personalised references to you or anyone else bar my contention that the piece suggested a factual disconnect from the past
(Well done on doing the job you were paid to do and for doing it as well as you did. However, you've been reading stuff into my commentary that is most evidently not there.
Once again, please be specific otherwise its just more avoidance through misdirection. Frankly, repeatedly addressing it is becoming much too taxing).
HJ
ReplyDelete"an apartheid-like and supremacist system of governance imposed on the CRN communities in the six counties"
FFS Henry wind your fucking neck in!You do realise that middle-class RCs did and still do very well in NI and that working class prods do very badly esp in education. You do realise that loyalist estates in Larne and North Belfast were some of the most deprived in NI? Yet you say it was apartheid? Utter bollocks HJ. These republican myths need challenged, the surprise is that it is you peddling them.
I don't dispute Peter that there's lot of poverty in all communities. And truly some Loyalist areas are among the hardest hit. And yes, nationalist as a rule have done better educationally.
DeleteThere are reasons for that though. Firstly, many of the heavy engineering type jobs, where Unionists dominated, are long gone and unlikely to ever be replicated. Until equality legislation came in, too many places were closed shops where CRN's were concerned. And that's a record of fact.
Secondly, and still inherently related to employment opportunities in manufacturing and in the public sector, CRN's in general have been more ambitious in their educational aspirations. They knew there were never going to be jobs for them in Mackey's, Gallahers or H & W and also knew that if they were to have an opportunity to escape the poverty trap, then education was the most likely route.
I'll still contend that it WAS (note the past tense, and as in my original use of the phrase) an apartheid-like arrangement. Unfortunately with the loss of industrial jobs things have backfired on those sections of Unionism previously in those favoured places of employment.
Larry Hughes comments
ReplyDeleteI'm sure as I've said there were a lot of decent well meaning people in RUC and prison service for example...great career options if you were unlucky enough to be born a loyalist...lol As for jailing more loyalists that isn't disputed but would Leslie not agree we now have a clearer picture that fools rushed in and agents remained in place indefinitely? Those fools made some people rather a lot of money. All rather sordid. When those around you are losing their heads those who kept theirs did rather well ... it now seems. I don't blame Leslie for joining the RUC in her shoes it was a no brainer for me. Fair dos!
@larry Oh don’t get me started on the money that was made on all sides! Yes I’m under no illusion that it was a sordid dirty war.
ReplyDelete