Ed Moloney with a piece looking at one of the conspiracy theories pertaining to the Boston College oral history project. It featured on The Broken Elbow on 29 May 2014.
Thanks to the level of disinformation, confusion and outright lying, I think the time is overdue to address the issue of Paul Bew’s involvement in the Boston College Belfast Project. These events happened fourteen years or more ago and within that memory constraint and limitation this is how I remember it.
I am the person who had the idea for the Belfast Project and it was conceived long before Boston College or Paul Bew came on the scene. Bew was its Boston midwife in a sense but he was not there on the night of impregnation.
By the time of the Good Friday Agreement, I had already started work on ‘A Secret History of the IRA’ and research for this book along with my reporting for the Sunday Tribune had convinced me that the Troubles were ending, the IRA’s war was over. I was also convinced from what I knew that this ending would be more comprehensive and final than any other in the IRA’s history, that the IRA would eventually agree to destroy its weapons and the leadership would go on a journey lit up by the ideological bridges burned behind them.
With the Troubles ending it was clear that unless an effort was made, the life stories of those who had been active in the IRA and other republican groups would be lost. That was point number one. There was a simple need to collect activists’ stories before they were gone. And I didn’t see much chance of anyone else taking on this task.
Point number two was that if the IRA’s war was typical of most, the writing of its history would be left to those, mostly leaders, who had every reason to ensure their version of the truth dominated, even if that truth was contaminated by falsehoods and invention. There was a need to ensure that a more complete and credible story of the IRA was collected and preserved.
Since Gerry Adams’s arrest by the PSNI there has been an outburst of criticism of the Belfast Project on the grounds that the project did not include interviews with the pro-Adams’ camp. This was the definition of bias in the eyes of critics.
First of all those who make this criticism do so in complete ignorance of who was and was not interviewed, nor do they know what was said in these interviews.
Second, if by this criticism people mean we should have included interviewees whose stories would begin from the base that Gerry Adams was never in the IRA and Martin McGuinness left the IRA in 1974, then I am proud to say that we did exclude such people. To have included such an absurd, fallacious and egregiously dishonest version of history would have rendered the archive a farce. Interviews which proceeded from such a claim would be utterly useless to any serious scholar. And if by proclaiming this I earn the title ‘Sinn Fein critic’, then I proudly wear it.
The sad truth is that as long as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness persist in their fictional life histories it will not be possible to collect anything remotely resembling a credible oral history, or any other history of the IRA, if those collecting the history rely on sources who repeat such nonsense.
These were two men, the former in particular, who were instrumental and often crucial in determining almost every twist and turn that the IRA took over the past four decades and to build the foundations of an oral history archive on the nonsense that they were never there, and could not have done all these things, is to transform the telling of history into vaudeville. The truth cannot ever come by that route.
To have taken such an approach to the story of the IRA would be rather like constructing an oral history archive based on the events of Bloody Sunday and interviewing only soldiers who never fired a shot on the day, thereby validating the notion that the British Army was entirely innocent of murder. Who could possibly stand over such a project? Yet we are criticised for not doing the same with the IRA!
But back to the story.
I was aware of the work done by the Bureau of Military History (BMI) in Dublin and began thinking about the possibility of repeating that work north of the Border. I had known Anthony McIntyre for several years by that point, knew he was writing his PhD thesis on the IRA in the 1970’s and was well aware that his analysis of the Provsionals’ political development was both sceptical and critical.
And as far as I was concerned that was a good reason to approach and ask him if he would be interested in developing the idea of a BMI initiative north of the Border.
Let me explain why. I saw in Mackers a lot of myself, a searcher for truth even at the cost of being derided as biased or partisan. I knew him to be the consummate scholar; for sure he had his own views about the Provos and some of these were scathing but I also knew from the work of his that I had read that when it came to research he suppressed his views in the quest for truth. He did not shape the facts to suit his views.
The same attitude, I like to think, had informed nearly all of my journalism and while it had done my career trajectory nothing but harm, I had managed to get the story right or more right than a lot of my rivals most of the time.
An oral history project on the IRA in circumstances where the well had already been poisoned by Sinn Fein’s dissembling needed the involvement of someone with those qualities if it was going to be meaningful and credible.
Let me give you an example of what I mean from the place where I now live, the United States. A few months ago the Obama White House rolled out its new Affordable Care Act websites and it was a disaster. Most of them either didn’t work or were maddeningly slow; it was clear that someone in the Obama machine had screwed up.
The bulk of journalists did what they always do, trot off to the White House to ask Obama’s press secretary Jay Carney what had happened and then dutifully report it alongside criticism leveled by Obama’s congressional opponents. That was the safe thing to do and doubtless most of their news editors were happy with their coverage because no-one had been scooped or shown up by a rival.
Only a few – some would call them troublemakers, I would call them proper journalists – went off in search of that internet expert in the Department of Health whose warnings about impending disaster had been laughed off or ignored.
In terms of covering the IRA story during the peace process I like to think I was the one who went off in search of that expert rather than Jay Carney; and I saw in Mackers someone who would take the same approach to the task of collecting historical interviews for this project (although in practice it was often a case of accepting whoever was willing to be interviewed!).
So, I make no apologies for hiring him. I hired him precisely because he is stubborn, iconoclastic, seditious, discerning, critical and incisive. And I hired him because I also knew he would be an objective scholar. I am proud of his work and so, until recently, was Boston College. And his work got the ultimate endorsement from an American judge: “A bona fide academic exercise of considerable intellectual merit”.
Again, back to the story.
I then spent a few months exploring the feasibility of the idea in Ireland and quickly discovered or realised that there were two insuperable obstacles. The first was that most libraries or colleges would run away screaming, their hair on fire at the very mention of an archive on the IRA. You might as well have suggested creating one on child rapists.
The truth is that back in those days the IRA was truly toxic for Irish academe, something they should remember now when some of their leading lights direct criticism at us. They would never have taken on such a project; cowardice runs very deep in that community. Where are their oral histories of the IRA? Why were we the only people with this idea?
The second is that no former or existing IRA member with half a brain would agree to get involved if the archive was housed at an Irish or British library or college. That was simply because of a lack of trust, created in part because there had been instances of such places alerting the police to sensitive material on their shelves. More cowardice on the part of academe.
The idea was dead, and I let it go.
And then Paul Bew showed up. He was spending a year as a visiting scholar at Boston College, a year after the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, from September 1999 to September 2000.
While at the college he had been approached by the librarian Bob O’Neill who admitted that he was beginning to realise that he didn’t have much of a collection of anything to do with the Troubles or the North. He was anxious to correct that. The Linenhall library had a collection of political ephemera for instance; would it be possible to replicate that? And he asked Bew if he would ask around and if there was anyone with a viable idea then they should approach Boston College. Funding might be available for the right idea.
And that simply, is how it started. Paul approached me, I explained the idea, contact was made with O’Neill and the rest is history. Apart from endorsing his PhD student, Anthony McIntyre as the lead researcher, and later suggesting names of former students for the UVF part, that was the sum of Paul Bew’s involvement in the genesis of the Belfast Project.
Boston College’s involvement allowed me to think bigger. I proposed that we expand to include the UVF which we did. And there were plans, funds permitting, to include an archive on the RUC and even British Army. Much later on we suggested that a victims’ archive be created as well.
As for the Tom Hachey preface to Voices From The Grave, my memory of the reference to Paul Bew reading interviews is of thinking that Hachey meant to say that he was involved in the same limited mission as Kevin O’Neill, i.e. reading one or two very early interviews to judge Mackers’ interviewing technique (whereas in fact Hachey’s affidavit to the first court hearing in Boston makes it clear that Bew was not involved in this at all).
Since Paul Larkin’s fantasy went into circulation I have talked to both Kevin O’Neill and Paul Bew about this early sampling exercise. Kevin believes Paul was never involved in that exercise while Paul outright denies it and Hachey told the court in Boston the same. I am inclined to believe them and even if they are mistaken we are talking about two interviews out of over 200.
The truth, disappointing though it may be to the conspiracists, is that Paul Bew’s involvement in the Belfast Project while helpful and important at the start, was in reality minimal and limited. Paul Bew has his own political views for sure but he is a respected political scientist and historian well capable of building a firewall around his involvement in this project, limited as it was. And such is the respect in which he is held in academic circles that his advice and input would always be welcome.
This criticism of Bew from the Larkins and the Danny Morrisons is itself immensely revealing. Do they assume that someone with defined political views imposes those views on their other activities because this is how they themselves behave? Is this why Larkin no longer works at the BBC?
There is a fatal flaw in the Larkin conspiracy, aside from the fact that it is the product of a fevered and obsessive mind. Implied in his analysis is the idea that Paul Bew directly or indirectly let the police authorities know about the archive. He implies that but as far as I know hasn’t had the courage to say it publicly. But riddle me this? The Belfast Project closed down in 2006 so if Bew had told them all about it, why did the PSNI wait five years to move against the archive? Why not straight away in 2006?
That’s the problem with conspiracies. There’s always one loose thread dangling down. Pull it hard enough and the rest unravels.
cowardice of irish academe - nailed it there ed.
ReplyDelete"and the leadership would go on a journey lit up by the ideological bridges burned behind them."
ReplyDeleteFair summation Ed, (even allowing that those bridges were never much more than architectural follies to begin with)!
the free state/british agenda seems to have won out. No republican archives, no government archives, no victims archives. Even with the internet, the truth is treated as a weapon of mass destruction.
ReplyDeleteThis is, in an intellectual and political manner, getting awkwardly embarrassing for the Adams camp.....starting to cringe here now!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteWho at BC will be held accountable for Belfast Project fiasco?
Peter Weilers' reference to the Belfast Project as a 'fiasco' seems apt to me.
ReplyDeleteDespite all the information which yourself, Ed and Carrie have provided Anthony I still have a far from scholarly image for the genesis of the project ... clandestine meetings in smokey back rooms ... scribbled notes on the back of cigarettes packets ... all come to mind, as does mad and reckless behaviour ... wing and a prayer stuff right from the off?
Professor Weiler is absolutely correct in his call for a complete and comprehensive investigation into Boston College's role in the fiasco. I would go further and advocate a review of all the significant players' performance and contributions, and to include all procedures and processes (or lack thereof) utilised in the establishment and execution of the project.
Rep. King: ‘I have every reason to believe Gerry Adams’
ReplyDeleteHenry, What planet are you living on? Mine is the third rock from the Sun. I've no doubt the interviews were done covertly. I reckon most people have already figured that out. I don't see the problem in that. How else was it meant to be conducted.. Did you expect Ed to hire out a screen in Time Sq and put in neon lights "People I'm involved in collecting interviews from former Republicans & Loyalists and what they did or didn't do during the Troubles???"
ReplyDeleteDáil Questions: Irish Government Protection of Irish History
ReplyDeleteHenry JoY,
ReplyDelete“the fiasco” is the price BC are willing to pay as they continue to distance the college from the project or more appropriately from the embarrassment of the material deposited.
BC had no problem in financing and getting the project of the ground there was no need for those involved to believe anything else than the confidentiality would keep the material sealed until contributors were deceased.
BC wanted the historical accounts of a recent conflict and was satisfied with the legal contract. Given the material collected, naturally it was done in secrecy otherwise the project would not have worked.
Smokey rooms and clandestine meetings make for good fictional hype mad and reckless behaviour on a wing and prayer is hardly accurate.
The project run well enough for it to be completed that took some discipline and commitment along with some trial and error considering there was no template to work from not to forget the personal risk taken by those involved the belief they were contributing something of historical value.
Which it is, maybe not so much for the general public but for historians and academics’ gaining access to former combatants’ recollections is a valuable resource in understanding conflict.
Personally, I view it as a worthy idea one that is beneficial to peace instead we continue with the “peace process” and history has to be cleansed in order for the British to write the official version which in a nutshell is the Brits went in beat the terrorists and restored peace in the kingdom.
If the material was in a neutral country it is unlikely that this media circus would have much steam. Boston College understood the material being collected was flammable, very flammable as in the eyes of the American government and the American people this was/is “terrorist testimonies” instead of standing over the project they created and defend academic freedoms they opted for the easy way out not because the project didn’t have any educational value but simply because it was “terrorist material” and the college went into PR mode saving their own face by displaying their wiliness to cooperate with a foreign government showing they are not protecting “terrorist information.” That was and is their way out which is a completely different story from its conception.
The bad publicity they brought to the college had to be cleaned up and the only way they could do that was abandon academic freedom and concede without question after all they were only breaking contracts made with former combatants or more acceptable “former terrorists.”
With the media spin and even the SF hype along with BCs disastrous handling of the problem the original project and its true intention has been reduced to a bar room brawl ignoring the projects historical worth and labeling it as anything else but research.
BC failed miserably and why not they are a world away from Belfast and even further away from understanding the unwritten laws of Northern Ireland and the conflict.
I firmly believe the project was a genuine attempt at recoding history and don’t subscribe to the notions that it was anything else. It is unfortunate that it has been turned into a political circus.
I believe those involved did so with the same good intention and took the risk on the road to peace and deserve the recognition for sacrificing so much during the struggle that should earn them the right to have their history recorded.
The British are not concerned with solving “crimes” they are more interested in suppressing truth much the same as SF, who would prefer that the past disappear just in case it causes the party any political embarrassment.
...
...
ReplyDeleteThe project seems minor in the grand scheme of secret dealings but SF has that in the bag with the cover all excuse “peace process.”
Those involved in the project had nothing to gain but simply put their experiences on record and it is met with hostility a false hostility based in some misnomer of loyalty not to the RM but to SF and given SF in their secret dealings the only loyalty they have is to the leadership of the party.
I am sure many would disagree with me but I don’t think the project came under scrutiny in the hope of solving crimes but the Brits set their sights on it as it was something they didn’t have control over.
Henry Joy,
ReplyDeletethe only "fiasco" and "train wreck" is this peace process. Every conflict in the world allows its combatants to discuss what they did after hostilities have died down. Every one except for this rotten statelet where the dissidents are the only ones ever accused of trying to bring everyone back to the past.
The BC project was a great idea, not the participants fault that it was hijacked for other purposes.
I like you 'frankie' fully understand that interviews had to be conducted covertly ... likewise I believe it took somebody of Anthony's standing to collect the testimonies of respected Volunteers.
ReplyDeleteI'm hopeful we can agree Frankie that the narrative of the struggle from the perspective of of those who fought the war ought be included regardless of the difficulties, challenges or embarrassments that such accounts might raise.
I am of the opinion that we owe it to those who participated, other historians and those who wish to learn from history, that we do that in such a way that avoids as much controversy about methodology and processes as possible. Failure to do so, unnecessarily leaves the work open to criticism. And that opinion shapes my comments on this topic.
Despite all the discourse thus far I'm as yet unclear as to why the history department of Boston College was kept outside the loop to the degree that it was.
Given that Ed Moloney is primarily know for his work as an investigative journalist, commentator and writer rather than as a historian, there were always going to be potential conflicts for Ed. I can't help but think that the project could have benefited by a closer involvement of academic historians. Best guess is they would have discouraged premature publication of excerpts from collected interviews as included in his book and accompanying documentary, "Voices from beyond the grave".
I further think it is legitimate to question his (Ed's) judgement in not taking independent legal advice rather than accepting the assurances (and yes, I know he sought and was given repeated assurances concerning protection of the testimonies) from representatives of Boston College.
(There may be almost seven billion of us on the planet but we still have an individual and unique perspective we can bring. Whether it's accurate or not is another story. Only time will tell.)
HenryJoy,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to hazzard a guess and say we agree more than what we disagree about. Voices was released for one simple reason, Anthony kept a promise to a friend. What you have to keep in mind was Brendan Hughes wanted his story told when he was in relatively good health and would have stood over every word in print. I am under no illusion that nothing else from the Belfast Project would have been released until we were both in our twilight years.
Anyone who wants to understand modern Irish histroy needs the Belfast project kept intact. The only people who are making a fuss are the PSNI, PSF & the British Gov.. My guess is they have the most to lose if & when the archive becomes available. Even today we have the PSNI with holding information on post conflict related murder to protect who? No matter what angle I look at things certain people don't want the truth to be told. They want a white washed version of the truth which benefits no one. And the people who are preventing the truth being told are PSF, the PSNI & the British Gov.
Why wasn't messers Dunn and O'Neil honest about the level of protection Boston could afford..? Ask Bob & Jack. Anthony & Wiston have tried to get them to be honest and so far have come against a brick wall. But in fairness to Anthony he knew releasing Voices would open a can of worms but he kept his word to a friend and comrade and people are hanging for that. Put yourself in Anthonys shoes for 30seconds. You have a friend who is dying and he asks you to honor your word after he dies.. Would you honor your word and keep the promise or say 'Fcuk him, he's gone and he wont know the difference".. I'd like to think Henry you'd keep your your word and honor it..
I further think it is legitimate to question his (Ed's) judgement in not taking independent legal advice rather than accepting the assurances (and yes, I know he sought and was given repeated assurances concerning protection of the testimonies) from representatives of Boston College
And you've answered your own question. At the time no one had any reason not to believe what Boston College reps told either Ed, Anthony or Wiston. Be honest with yourself, you probably would have too. But hindsight is always 20/20.....
While everyone on this rock have different opinions about most things, most people are in agreement that Anthony & Wiston conducted themselves honestly and with integrity. And what was revealed by Ed in Voices has been in the public domain for years. What Voices done was simply fill in a few blanks, dot 'I's' and cross 'T's'.
Dáil Questions: In view of Boston College’s failure to protect its work…
ReplyDeleteTain Bo, Ryan and Frankie I don't fundamentally disagree with the main thrust of your comments.
ReplyDeleteAnd mindful of my own biases, my own imperfections and shortcomings ... indeed I don't wish to be unduly harsh on either Ed or Anthony.
However I sense a reluctance particularly on Ed's behalf to reveal or acknowledge any shortcomings of his own performance in the establishment and execution of the oral history project.
(In a reply on a previous thread Anthony did express regrets at not having had the foresight to seek independent legal advise.)
Many people might say you know continued failure to acknowledge shortcomings on their side minimises legitimate arguments as to glaringly obvious performance failures on the Boston College side.
Adams episode sounds warning on peace process
ReplyDeleteThe Belfast Agreement was not just negotiated between opposing political parties. It involved the taming of dark forces
ReplyDeleteI got to there and stopped. These tamed dark forces still haven't handed over the documents/case files in at least 60 murders..
Then I decided to continue to read Martin's letter...
What possessed Paul Bew, now Lord Bew, distinguished historian, former unionist adviser, and present chairman of the British-Irish Association, to recommend people who were more crusading journalists than academics to manage it?
At a guess..Paul Bew quickly figured Anthony & Wiston were the best to get former Republican & Loyalist volunteers to speak openly, honestly and frankly about their part in the confict. And I'll throw into the mix Paul Bew studied Anthonys work up close and personal while he was was doing his OU degree and later his Phd.. You could say Paul Bew took a very well educated guess.
While tension has been somewhat relieved in the short term by Adams’s release without charge with a file going to the Public Prosecution Service
And the untamed dark forces are going to have a field day within the next few months when Ivor Bell is up in front a judge. My guess is it will happen just before or in the run up to next years general election...
American mediation to be successful requires the active input of the British and Irish governments. Recent statements suggest that they recognise the danger. The electoral fall-out from what has happened is quite uncertain.
What the British & Americans are afraid of is what has happened in Derry with Gary Donnelly being elected, getting replicated across the six counties be it from anti GFA republicans or extreme loyalists..
Adams tries to gag Independent
ReplyDeleteHenry Joy,
ReplyDeleteMy advice (for what it's worth) if you want answers about why Ed didn't seek out independant legal advice is to post your question on Ed's blog and if you want to get an American lawyers point of view then ask Ted Folkman (on the right hand side there are three 'search engines' goto to 'TAGS' and scroll untill you see Belfast project, there at least 90 enteries from a legal stand point)..I'm not saying that to be smart or funny. If you want Ed's advice etc.. Ask Ed. To understand American law, ask an American lawyer.
In a reply on a previous thread Anthony did express regrets at not having had the foresight to seek independent legal advise
I'll keep coming back to the same point. At the time Anthony, Wiston or Ed had no reason not to believe what Boston originally told them. I seriously doubt anyone would have either had they been in the same position. The whole project was based on trust. The interviewees trusted the interviwers who in turn trusted Boston becasue of the legacy the college had. There wasn't any reason for them not to doubt Bob, Jack & co when they originally said that nothing would be released to anyone with out a nod from the researchers. And they(Anthony, Wiston or Ed) didn't given a nod and wink to the PSNI & British Gov. to go on a fishing exercise..Danny Morrison was very vocal in support of PSF getting both their hands on the Project and trying to discredit it. To me the more noise he makes about the project adds more creedence to it. I'm convinced they (PSF) are shit scared what it contains.
Many people might say you know continued failure to acknowledge shortcomings on their side minimises legitimate arguments as to glaringly obvious performance failures on the Boston College side
As you've already said Henry, Anthony manned up, held his hands up and admitted his 'short comings' by not seeking a second independant legal opinion. All Boston have done and are still doing is sticking their heads in holes in the ground like ostriches hoping the whole episode goes away.. Why didn't their legal time alert Ed & co about MLAT?
(on a lighter note when ever I see your name on TPQ I always think of Joe Pecsi shouting "Henry" in Goodfella's)..
'frankie'
ReplyDeleteSeems as if something or someone is rocking your rockabilly boat?
Thank you for the links though I believe my comments are appropriate under an article penned by Ed.
" The whole project was based on trust."
Yes Frankie and look what happened!
Better to have heeded Joseph Stalin;
"I trust no one, not even myself".
Henry,
ReplyDeleteWhat's pissing the 32a's off me Henry, AKA Rockin' my rockabilly boat is simple. The double standards being played out. And events this week show the hypocrisy in techo-colour. Today Gavin Larmour is asking for the case file on the murder of his father to be handed over to Police Ombudsman Michael Maguire His [Gavin Larmour] father was a part timer in the RUC and was shot dead by a British agent.
He claims RUC Special Branch knew the identity of the killers, but did not help detectives investigating the murder because they were protecting an informer.
Some reports have it 'IRA informer' but he wasn't an IRA vol. He crossed over and became an agent of the state. That pisses me off too. They use IRA informer as a word play to discredit republicans. Why can't 'he/she' be called what they became an agent of the state?
In 2008 Al Hutchinson said that not all information available to the police was given to the detectives trying to find the killer.
Gavin Larmour said the report had confirmed his worst fears.
He said: "It has been confirmed that there is intelligence that was not passed on or has been ignored. There are other lines of inquiry that were either not opened or not finalised, and basically the whole investigation from start to finish has been proven now to have been a farce."
Matt Baggot head of the PSNI said "intelligence documents were not shared due to a lack of legal clarity and concerns over data protection.
What about a journalist's right to protect his/her source? Everyone knows the transcripts wont stand up in a court of law but they'll use every trick in the book to get their hands on the Belfast project all the same.
The first time I discovered how filthy the conflict was when I read The dirty war by Martin Dillon. Why don't the PSNI ask Martin Dillon to reveal his sources? My guess is because Dillion wasn't a former IRA volunteer who dared to speak out against the leadership of the PRM.
Yes Frankie and look what happened!
What happened. PSF got rattled and threw their toys out of the pram like kids throwing a tantrum and the PSNI calmed them by dirty tricks and not applying the same rules of engagement that they are using today to block the release of papers that implicate former RUC SB in at least 60 murders.. Why wont Mi5/6 track down Scap, freeze his assets and charge him with at least 40 murders?
Better to have heeded Joseph Stalin; "I trust no one, not even myself".
Henry, you can find better examples that Stalin to re-enforce your argument. Anthony can be trusted. How do 'we' know that. Going on past form he didn't talk when he was getting hammered into the ground while on the blanket.. He took his 18yrs in Long Kesh on the chin like a man.. Danny Morrison was on the duvet..
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeleteFelling a few trees doesn’t exactly afford oneself a better view of the forest.
That bone you will need to pick with Ed as only he can answer your observation, he is not difficult to find.
Certainly now the project is a media circus the hindsight factors become obvious or at least the closer to home ones as it seems BC are in the clear of any wrong doing. Their haste is ignored and their legal contract isn’t worth the paper it was typed on.
I don’t believe they were in the dark regarding the MLAT treaty and the possible threat it would have on the project.
I do believe given their actions that the contract was deliberately drawn up with a loophole for the college to wriggle out of its responsibility.
I can appreciate you are anyone pointing out hindsight, it is a good thought seeking independent counsel but the reality of that is, they would only be proof-reading a binding contract between the interested parties and is unlikely that they would have acknowledged the potential threat from the MLAT treaty, unless it was part of the contract.
If anything all they are guilty of is misplaced trust in BC, could anyone involved in collecting the material seriously consider going to a third party and expect the third party not to leak the information.
Could anyone outside the contract be trusted? In Northern Ireland or the South or anywhere for that matter, hindsight only works as we get to look back.
Better to ignore Stalin his paranoia is what MI5 enjoy putting fear into everyone.
Judge Says He Will Not Unseal Records of Boston College’s Belfast Project
ReplyDeleteSigh and bye!
ReplyDeletehttp://lettersblogatory.com/2014/01/29/belfast-project-coda/#comments
Court and controversy: Garrett in the dock
ReplyDeleteHenry JoY,
ReplyDeleteYour argument is based in hindsight and the problem you have with Ed not blaming himself for any supposed wrong doing.
If Ed believes he did nothing wrong then why should he say otherwise and just out of curiosity what did Ed or anyone outside of the college do wrong, keep in mind hindsight doesn’t help with an answer.
I don’t believe there is anything in the contract that would have been cause for concern and on that issue the BC legal department failed to draw up a contract that they knew would have spelt the end of the project before it started. I remain convinced that BC offered satisfactory assurances and deliberately avoided any potential future threat, they can deny their failure but I would be confident they were more than aware of the MLAT yet did not mention it or any other possible legal threat to the project.
The only sound reason for not pointing out the MLAT was to ensure they got the material they wanted.
Again, the only wrong doing anyone outside of the college is guilty of they trusted a prestigious college and they can’t be faulted for believing everything was sound and above board.
Out of curiosity and I know it is not the same thing but how many legal contracts do you click “I agree” with these terms and conditions before you can use the software or site?
Most people I know just click on agreements without reading what they are agreeing with so, people essentially trust the companies for no other reason other than haste and in the false belief that these companies can be trusted with people’s personal information.
“Lawyers are the only persons in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.”
JEREMY BENTHAM, The Canadian Bar Journal, Jun. 1966
Place-hacker Bradley Garrett: research at the edge of the law
ReplyDeleteIndeed Tain Bo it does have a ring to it that lawyers are the only people for whom ignorance of the law is not fully punishable.
ReplyDeleteAnd that a chara is as much of your 'reductio ad absurdum' that I'm going to catch on this occasion!
Comparisons between the contracts Ed and Anthony signed with Boston College and software agreements signed by computer users are so facile and reductionist that they are almost offensive given the hazards and distresses, potential and otherwise this matter evokes.
Ed, Anthony et al were entering into a potential minefield with the proposed project. Surely Ed, Anthony and Paul Bew can't claim that they weren't aware of the potential pitfalls and inherent dangers for themselves and their participants?
Surely to God one amongst them, if not all of them, considered a risk assessment of sorts? And if they didn't why not? Weren't they all familiar with the territory involved? Didn't they all know well the machinations of both the British securocrats and the Provisional leadership and the ongoing threats these parties posed?
These men are not simple Paddy's; they are supposedly educated people. Wouldn't participants have every reasonable right to expect that a strength and weakness, an opportunities and threats evaluation had been undertaken before embarking on such an endeavour? Wouldn't such a basic SWOT analysis have included independent legal advise on the sustainability of confidentiality clauses in the event of a court order?
There are a number of amber, if not red flag signals which ought to have precipitated exactly such. In correspondence of May 10th 2000 from Robert O'Neill to Ed Moloney.
"I cannot guarantee, for example, that we would be in a position to refuse to turn over documents on a court order without being held in contempt."
And what to me seems most telling as to his desire not to miss out on having such a collection in The Burns Library,
"Better we make concessions for the short term than risk never gathering the material."
Then there's Ed's contract, which he freely signed on the 31st January 2001, containing a clause,
"Each interviewee is to be given a contract guaranteeing to the extent American law allows the conditions of the interview and the conditions of its deposit at the Burns Library, including terms of an embargo period if this becomes necessary, as outlined herein. An appropriate user model, such as Columbia University's Oral History Research Office Guidelines statement, should be adopted."
Many people you know would say there are more than enough reasons as outlined above to be leaving the pens aside and consulting a good brief before signing anything.
I'm sure there are no shortage of committed and trustworthy legal types who could have been consulted. They, to a large extent, can legally claim client confidentiality; and they didn't need every last detail to form an opinion.
Interestingly and intriguingly Anthony's contract with Ed for the position of Lead Project Researcher doesn't include a reference to 'the extent American law allows'.
Of course neither does the Agreement For Donation form contain such reference to the constraints of American law.
However the contract Antony signed with Ed Moloney on February 2001(and witnessed by Paul Bew) is of only one single page.
The full terms of Anthony's contract is reliant on Ed's initial contract which did clearly state to the extent American law allows,;
"This Agreement (known hereafter as agreement B) is governed by the terms of an earlier Agreement (known hereafter as Agreement A) reached between the Trustees of Boston College and Ed Moloney regarding the above mentioned project which was signed between them on January 31st 2001."
If Anthony read Ed's contract, as he ought to have done, then he too was aware of the constraints on confidentiality and it would have been more prudent not to sign.
I find myself left with an as yet unanswered question; why given the brevity of each contract, two pages for Ed, and one for Anthony, was Anthony's formatted this way?
ReplyDeleteOne thing for sure ... it was hardly a shortage of ink or the want of paper ...
Belfast Project aftermath: the legal implications
ReplyDeleteHenry JoY,
ReplyDeleteI am always highly suspicious when I see the words “a chara” with good reason as you go on with a funny attempt at insult which relegates “a chara” to the rubbish bin.
You seem overly dramatic I am sure this has caused you great distress and many sleepless nights.
You have the advantage of hindsight but we can put that to sleep with the obvious if there had have been a remote hint of duplicity there would have been no project.
No, legal binding contracts are the same there are reasons why people are given the choice to agree or disagree with the contracts. Most people view them as a formality and a nuisance you are talking about binding contracts but apparently you freely agree to them without reading seems a little naïve.
Just as you are talking in hindsight saying as much about Anthony and Ed as being naïve regarding the contracts.
No, all entered into an agreement that involved the collecting and depositing sensitive material.
I am unaware of anyone claiming ignorance regarding the potential unpredictable future threats.
You have the advantage of talking in past tense and it makes for fantastic 007 spy novels but you put on your own show of claiming that you have problems with a standard working contract that is very clear so I am unsure why your could have, would have, should have, is a problem for you.
Apart from your obvious personal problem you have with ED and Anthony you are not adding anything new or startling to the ongoing issue.
Have you considered those interviewed probably weighed up the pros and cons before they decided to agree with participation and would have been aware of potential problems that could arise in the future? Is it just easier to assume they were lied to and part of some mysterious ingenious plot schemed up by Ed and Anthony who somehow had enough pull to convince BC to make their future plot work? That would work but we have loyalist participation but much like BC that is to be ignored.
I am unsure what point(s) you are trying to establish with hindsight, have you contacted Ed, I am sure he would be forthcoming and as transparent as the only thing I can see is you are trying to put blame in his corner.
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeleteEd being the Project Director assumes the role of boss which adds to his contractual duties Anthony being the Lead Republican Researcher assumes the role of employee his role is different that would satisfy the great dilemma you claim to have over one page versus two.
What is so suspicious about a standard basic working contract?
Why no complaint about the half page Donor Contracts?
Interesting:
“The Project Director will require that the interviewer and the interviewee to sign an agreement of confidentiality, stipulating that neither will disclose to third parties the existence and scope of the Belfast Project without the permission of the Sponsor.”
This alone could be reason enough to believe that BC would hold up their end of the contract that they conveniently broke with not such a great legal defense on their part.
BC being the Sponsor and creator of the contract don’t mention any clause for future problems that could arise.
Consulting 3rd parties without permission displays the level of control BC have over the project and are not the victims.
There is nothing remarkable or anything suspicious about the contract what else would you expect it to say considering it is American law?
I fail to see your point as you are just red flagging in hindsight, you are not highlighting anything that isn’t already public knowledge.
Instead of doing this wee dance why don’t you just say that you believe Ed and Anthony are to blame for BC breaking its own contract?
I don’t subscribe to your point of view I don’t believe the Project was wrong and I certainly don’t believe that those involved did anything wrong.
I don’t see why anyone had any reason to be doubtful of the contract rather than follow the media sideshow that much like you avoids BCs involvement and failure to protect the project I remain unconvinced that there was any willful negligence on Ed or Anthony’s part.
I am convinced if Ed and Anthony had the financial resources to hire a high profile brief the legal battle would probably be still tied up in legal knots.
Again all they are guilty of is trusting BC but neither broke their contracts so it would be safe to assume that the integrity of BC on this issue is far from intact.
Who’s Quashing Who?: The Battle Between Scholars and Subpoenas
ReplyDelete"Mr. McIntyre, an independent historian, was having dinner at Deanes Restaurant, in the center of this small, working-class city, with an Irish journalist and a librarian from Boston College...........Thirteen years later the three men would have vastly different recollections of their first meeting. The two Irishmen walked away from dinner thinking that Mr. O’Neill would not pursue the project unless he could assure them that its secrecy was legally protected. Mr. O’Neill insists he would never have made such a blanket promise.
ReplyDeleteBut all agree on one point. In those heady, early days, when talk of reconciliation dominated public discussion in Northern Ireland, none of them imagined their project would get caught up in an international criminal investigation into a four-decade-old murder. How that happened is a tale of grand ambitions undermined by insular decision-making and careless oversight."
'Secrets From Belfast'
How Boston College’s oral history of the Troubles fell victim
to an international murder investigation
Story by Beth McMurtrie
January 26, 2014
THE CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION
The differences of recollections of what happened between these three men at that first meeting and subsequently is indeed relevant to unravelling this mess; presuming that's possible.
Yes conversations and email exchanges that formed part of negotiations are useful in understanding participants' intent but what's concrete and binding in the final analysis are the contracts.
Ed freely signed a contract that clearly stated confidentiality of testimony was guaranteed only to the extent that American law allowed.
Anthony signed a contract with Ed which was reliant upon Ed's contract with Boston College. Therefore Anthony also knew, or ought to have known, about the caveat on confidentiality.
Many people might say Ed and Anthony failed in their performance of contractual duties by not including that caveat on confidentiality in the donor contract.
(from Ed's contract)
"Each interviewee is to be given a contract guaranteeing to the extent American law allows the conditions of the interview and the conditions of its deposit at the Burns Library, including terms of an embargo period"
Of course if that had happened there'd be no project!
Promises and their limitations
ReplyDeleteHenry JoY,
ReplyDeletenice wee story and of course we would have to take the word of Mr. O’Neil after all why would he feel obliged or even obligated to admit fault on behalf of BC.
Actually, how that happened is less dramatic and no fault of either Anthony, Ed, or even at that point in time BC. Read up on how it came into the public arena and what set the cops off on the hunt for something they didn’t know existed at the time.
You have a flair for the dramatic much like the unscrupulous reporter that took advantage of a women suffering from mental health problems. A decent woman dedicated to Irish republicanism that like many felt undermined by the few in leadership and sold out so much for loyalty.
It would appear that up until the point the story was reported the project was safe and those involved had no great concern.
There was ample time for BC to return the material long before a subpoena was issued would you are the wise men at BC care to explain why they decided to hold onto material that was soon to be subject of international legal pressure? That would have been the best case scenario but what to hell hindsight solves and answers everything.
Would it be too simple to return the material as they offered after the fact? Would it be a stretch to say they held on knowing the material could and would cause the college disrepute considering it was “terrorist” in nature this way they could say we held the fort to the extent American law allowed and by cooperating exonerating themselves of any wrong doing even at the expense of academic freedoms?
You are still not adding anything new to your unbeatable hindsight logic although as we progress you are getting closer to saying what you personally believe but to date you are just repeating what others have added to the BC failure.
The 007 shite is fantastic but should be left for the crackpot conspiracy theorists and your ramblings and fixations are bordering on that.
I read it the first time and many times before do you think if you repeat the same line long enough I will be convinced paragraph 3 of the Donor Contract transfers the legal responsibility back to the Sponsor for safe keeping “until death.”
No offense Henry I haven’t a baldy who you are but Anthony is a very decent man, one who has been through the mill and has the history to prove it. He donated his recollections to the project do you seriously believe that he would shop himself in sound grandiose plot?
Your bemoaning on a few lines that first you claim stress and confuse you and then keep repeating as if that is absolute truth that works well in fiction but has no base in reality.
You lack the stones to say it out right but you are mimicking the SF world claiming the project is touting.
What a load of balls do you seriously believe Vol. Brendan Hughes ( I can’t even type it) it is just such a ridiculous notion spawned by complete liars that wouldn’t be where they are today without the likes of those involved in the project.
As I said Anthony is a decent bloke and I have no reservation in supporting him as I do not subscribe to the rubbish presented.
Ed, stands his ground and fights his corner squarely I haven’t read or heard anything to cast a dark shadow over his character, he knows what he is talking about and in my opinion is/was qualified to run the project.
But continue to judge these people by your unbeatable hindsight logic and continue to ignore BCs failure or the political agenda behind the demand for certain material.
Have you addressed Ed yet and if not, why?
Henry JoY,
ReplyDelete(From Ed's contract) "Each interviewee is to be given a contract guaranteeing to the extent American law allows the conditions of the interview and the conditions of its deposit at the Burns Library, including terms of an embargo period"
“Of course if that had happened there'd be no project!”
So let us look at what did happen. Boston College drew up and issued the contracts referred to - ("Each interviewee is to be given a contract guaranteeing to the extent American law allows the conditions of the interview and the conditions of its deposit at the Burns Library, including terms of an embargo period" ) and those contracts said:
"Access to the tapes and transcripts shall be restricted until after my death except in those cases where I have provided prior written approval for their use following consultation with Burns Library, Boston College".
It also says, "Due to the sensitivity of content the ultimate power of release shall rest with me."
If that was not in accordance with the extent of American law, why was it there? The breach of contract rests with Boston College, and they have admitted it:
However, the contract didn't specify that the secrecy of the archive was limited under American law.
"In retrospect, that was my mistake," Robert O'Neill, of Boston College's Burns Library, told the Chronicle of Higher Education this year.
More from the Belfast Telegraph report of the case being mounted against Boston College:
Mr. Maloney has a 2001 email from Mr. O'Neill stating: "I am working on the wording of the contract to be signed by the interview (ee), and I'll run this by Tom (Hachey) and university counsel". Thomas Hachey was executive director of the Center for Irish Programs at Boston College.
"The college cannot pass the buck. It had overall control of what was going on," said Mr. Winters. "Mr. Maloney and Mr McIntyre were employed by Boston College. This is as if one of my staff did something within his employment and I said, 'this is nothing to do with me – it was up to him to sort out the legalities'. That wouldn't wash and I could be sued."
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/exira-prisoner-richard-orawe-ill-sue-boston-college-for-handing-over-tapes-30267265.html
Firstly Tain I resent your veiled ad hominem tactics.
ReplyDeleteIn particular I take exception to your comparison of me with "the unscrupulous reporter that took advantage of a women (woman) suffering from mental health problems".
And also " you are mimicking the SF world claiming the project is touting."
Neither are true nor justifiable.
I like you Tain am entitled to an opinion and this is a discussion forum after all? ... I will respectfully defend my right to express an opinion.
You and I have agreed on some issues raised on various posts and failed to agree on others.
On no occasion have I personalised it with you. On occasion I exercised consideration to you when others were less than compassionate.
Moving on to the substantive issue; I agree that the Donor Contract was gravely misleading to the interviewees as it made no reference to the caveat with regards to the potential limitation imposed by American law (as contained in Ed's contract, and de facto in Anthony's as Anthony's contract was reliant on the original between Boston and Ed).
The second article of the Donor Agreement assigns ownership to Boston College.
"I assign to the Trustees of Boston College absolute title thereto"
So even if participants did request return of testimonies it would be at the discretion of Boston College.
Independent legal advice ought to have picked up on that too.
I have re-read my previous comments and stand by them save that I erroneously stated that "Ed freely signed a contract that clearly stated confidentiality of testimony was guaranteed only to the extent that American law allowed.
Though I do believe that 'confidentiality of testimony' is implicit in 'conditions of interview' as referenced in Ed's contract. Confidentiality was not explicitly identified.
"Each interviewee is to be given a contract guaranteeing to the extent American law allows the conditions of the interview and the conditions of its deposit at the Burns Library."
In the end of the day you'd have to talk to a lawyer!
In the meantime I'll close for now on Beth McMurtie's comment that it
"... is a tale of grand ambitions undermined by insular decision-making and careless oversight"
... and a sad tale at that.
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeletethere is nothing veiled it was fairly clear so I would dispute your argumentum ad hominem tactic. I could add that you are applying the same tactic against ED and to the lesser degree Anthony.
As for mimicking SF well they labour on the same points you have been repeating to the nth degree yet offer no reasonable explanation as to why you find fault basing your points in what others have said.
Your opinion has not been denied so there is hardly reason for the question mark of doubt.
Duly noted, but I am and will continue to challenge your opinion as I don’t subscribe to blaming the employees and ignore the blatant wrong doing of the Bosses.
I have spent the better part of a week scouring through all I could find on Ed and Anthony looking for something substantial to substantiate your repeated points.
I even re-read your favourite Beth McMurtie which the opening is too much on the side of fictional novel for my liking and sets a bias for the rest of her argument.
I am sure we will agree on some future points but aren’t you just playing the ad hominem card as you state you displayed consideration for me when others were less than compassionate?
I have a dodgy memory but I would think I at least thanked you? As for the others I would have been disappointed if they had cheered me on and their comments were fair and displayed compassion for Larry.
Larry and I have a history of butting heads but on that one people were right to defend him as I was out of order and took more stick from it offline. I am sure Larry and I will buttheads in the future but the romance remains intact and neither or worse for wear just old farts slabbering.
Thanks for correcting me on the “woman.” I made a few more mistakes but since that doctor chopped me open a few weeks ago I have been flying high on pain killers not the mellow high Frankie talks about but the dopey one.
Anyways back to the issue…
…
ReplyDeleteWell that is refreshing you have included the Donor Contract. Article two does that but let’s not ignore article 3 in the same contract.
Specifically: “Due to the sensitivity of content, the ultimate power of release shall rest with me. After my death the Burns Librarian of Boston College may exercise such power exclusively.”
The ultimate power shall rest with me not partial power “ultimate” unless dead then that power is transferred. So, up until the point of death the ultimate power (ownership) belongs to the interviewee and therefore they could request the return of materials.
This is confirmed that the ownership is solely the interviewees otherwise BC after the fact could not legally make the statement that they would return the materials to the owners.
No need for third party legal advice as a brief would say “yes that is your property.”
…
Ed did sign a contract that is not in dispute and here we go again to the extent American law allows. You continue to grease up the Hangman’s Noose for Ed and Anthony.
From your favourite and absolute authority on the matter Beth McMurtie:
“In retrospect, Mr. Hachey, of Boston College’s Center for Irish Programs, wishes he and Mr. O’Neill had subjected the Belfast Project to more scrutiny. While maintaining that it was not standard oral history, he says, “that’s not to excuse us for not having been more inclusive in the beginning.”
Sounds like Hachey and O’Neill are singing the hindsight blues but instead they are saying they made a right ballix of the project but that is sound as they get to sit in their Ivory Towers at BC and point the blame at Ed and Anthony.
The following highlights the complete ignorance of the college briefs either that or they lied as it is difficult to believe BC were in the dark as to the treaty. Is it Ed or Anthony’s fault for trusting this prestigious college? Did Hachey and O’Neill know about the treaty and kept it hushed to ensure they would get the material they wanted for their library.
If Anthony or Ed had been aware of the treaty there would be no project it seems BC had good reason to lie and were well aware that neither Anthony or Ed had any sound reason to distrust them and their false promises.
Jack Dunn’s defense oh the Brits like us enough they trust us to keep their dirty dealings in the college surely they wouldn’t object to the college keeping the complimentary project of those that used the arms.
But why blame the Boss when you can sling fault at the employees.
“The subpoena was a shock. None of the four principals was aware that such a treaty existed, allowing the Police Services of Northern Ireland to ask the United States for help in securing evidence they thought relevant to their case. And just two months earlier, the British government had given the college highly sensitive papers related to the disarmament process, to be kept locked away for 30 years. Yet that same government now wanted access to other sensitive documents about the same era.
“That irony was not lost on any of us,” says Jack Dunn, the college’s spokesman.”
Have you made the effort to speak with Ed, I am positive he would transparently address the issues you have with him.
I think Chris answers your query it sounds like Mr. O’Neill forgot about the Boston Tea Party unlike the Brits.
Chris Bray • 5 months ago
"Even so, the contracts with interviewees made no mention of legal
limits on confidentiality... Mr. O’Neill never did check with a lawyer about the wording."
Case closed. The end.
Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteThanks for your reply. Once again though I must refute your original comparisons; "You lack the stones to say it out right but you are mimicking the SF world claiming the project is touting."
Tain you have attempted to sideline this in your last response by softening and backtracking to "As for mimicking SF well they labour on the same points you have been repeating to the nth degree" but yet you fail to redress the original slur.
But I guess this as close to a recantation as I'm going to get from you.
Let me be clear about where I stand on this. I believe the project was an attempt to preserve in a secure way the testimonies of front-line participants. And those testimonies in all likelihood would be of some, if not significant, value to academics and students in both the political and social sciences as well as those of history. It was a worthy concept. At no point in the past nor now, did I nor do I, claim the project was anything other than that.
I totally reject Sinn Féin's scurrilous allegations about 'touting'.
I also once again refute your comparison of me with "the unscrupulous reporter that took advantage of a women (woman) suffering from mental health problems". My sensitivities, respect and compassion for those who experience such challenges are gender neutral, well informed and certainly not lacking.
You raise a question as to my debating style; "aren't you just playing the ad hominem card as you state you displayed consideration for me when others were less than compassionate?"
I can see where you're coming from on that Tain but I was as circumspect as I could have been and I was elucidating my point on not having personalised it with you. (and yes you did post a gracious note of thanks and a pledge of reciprocal support at some future time. Hence perhaps the deepening of my umbrage with your personalisations?)
If I had wanted to be spiteful and vengeful, if I had played the man rather than playing the ball, I could have said much harsher things about your threat to silence Larry the lamb!
That's the house-keeping done. I like to tidy up as I go along!
But I shall return to you later with other matters on the substantive issue.
Oooops!
ReplyDeleteForgot to wish the 'old bull' a speedy recovery.
Perhaps I ought make more allowance for him being somewhat tetchy and crochety at this time!
Ah Henry JoY,
ReplyDeleteNo allowance necessary as this bad tempered crotchety old fart doesn’t mind when the water starts to boil as by the natural law of physics the steam evaporates.
My minor playing the person in contrast to your latest seems like a victory for you as you had no problem introducing the few words in a defense one that now is put aside as you are clearly on the attack. Awarding yourself a penalty kick right in my balls would qualify as personal.
I wasn’t playing the sympathy angle or give me some special consideration when I said I am doped up, merely stating a fact and being doped up my mind is far from clear and tends to wander off.
Again you are entitled to rebuttal and can prove false anything I have said. You have not advanced your repetitious argument and are satisfied to labour on points that I believe I have answered.
Now, you take umbrage with what you consider a slur. Again, what exactly is it that is on “your mind” and what have you proved to date that is uncontestable and ultimate “truth.”
Henry, I have nothing personal against you and chances are never will. We will agree on issues and disagree.
Respectfully and with consideration it was a “woman” I don’t see what is wrong with stating a fact rather than saying “gender neutral” adopting the moral high ground is neither here nor there.
You avoid placing any blame on BC and continue to use the same lines about Ed and Anthony so I assume you hold the same feelings on those that donated “their” experiences and you don’t directly state it but imply a certain amount of ignorance on their part.
Personally, I have great respect for those whom I am aware of that were involved. I don’t view them as undereducated susceptible fools. They were willing to donate their memories and were not duped or fooled by Anthony.
To go a step further if I had sensitive material I would have no problem entrusting it with Anthony.
I am not softening nor back tracking just challenging your opinion and unfortunately, the lines you labour on are the lines that SF use that evolved into graffiti and mob opinion.
If for one second I thought Anthony was a Brussel, I would have no problem in saying that but there is absolutely nothing to back up the mob claims and they know it as they also know the smears of tout against others only have base in their nonsense minds.
Henry, regarding any future times if I believe you are in the right I will have no qualms backing you up.
Unfortunately, in type you can’t hear me laughing as that was a very clever play on words, hard to type as I am still laughing as that makes me Hannibal Lector you will have to ask Larry the Lamb if he likes your jab at him.
Anyway, I am glad your house is in order and you got that of your chest. Honestly, Henry, that was cleverly funny I should change moniker.
Pleased you got a laugh at least out of my last comments TB but there is a serious side to all this. A serious side which affords opportunities for growth, learning and improved performance rather than ridicule and blame.
ReplyDeleteSeems to me that there are lessons to be learned all round for oral historians particularly with regards to contracts between researchers and the body which offers depository facilities.
As in this case there will almost inevitably be a power imbalance between the parties to the contract. That is reason enough for independent legal opinion to be sought. The fact of the matter is that neither Tom Hachley, Robert O'Neill, Ed Moloney nor Anthony sought such advise.
They all may be 'decent blokes' but there were grave oversights on all sides with regards to this.
All involved had a duty of care to the donors. Fulfilment of that duty required legal opinion. All parties failed in that responsibility.
Indeed even with such opinion it could be further argued that donors ought have been advised to seek their own counsel before proceeding with interviews.
Henry,
ReplyDeleteStop acting like a mild mannered janitor
All involved had a duty of care to the donors.
You are including Anthony in the doners too. Aren't you Henry? You are coming from this from a hindsight position no matter what way you try to dress it up. And the question you should be asking is.."Why did the PSNI go on a fishing trip across the pond?".. My guess is to to get the hands on all the transcripts and then get a big felt tip marker and score loads of of the truth out..
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeletenow you are just acting the maggot as I made it clear that your reference to Larry the Lamb would make me Hannibal Lector which was funny just as funny as Frankie’s link to Hong Kong Phooey.
You are not shedding any new light on the issue and in one sentence you end with rather than ridicule and blame but you have been blaming Ed and Anthony and now have added Hachey and O’Neill.
Your well seems to be drying up and now you are again laboring on hindsight and the reverse of that would be if there had been no threat to the archive from the Brits we wouldn’t be having this debate.
You will need to take it up with the BC briefs as they included in the contract that no third parties were to have knowledge of this.
That alone would give Ed and Anthony the impression that BC wanted to keep this as quiet as possible.
So, in hindsight we would have X number of donors seeking advice from X number of briefs and no one would twig on? Can you say that the X number of briefs would all offer the same opinion? Hindsight doesn’t take that into consideration as at the time there was this thing called the peace process charming the country and unless all the donors had the same brief then I would assume they would get varying results.
Again, you would need to ask O’Neill why he forgot to check with the legal counsel as he is the only one that can answer that but instead he passes the blame down.
As for the donors their memories were collected and sent to the “big safe house BC.”
All was quiet up until the cops want on the hunt BC give the false impression they would hold the fort and put on a piss poor PR defense of the college and not the case.
You enjoy hindsight ask them why they didn’t return what wasn’t legally their property unless the donor was dead.
That way when the subpoena eventually arrived all they would need say is sorry we no longer have the files you requested.
Though that wouldn’t bode well for the college as their image would be severely damaged if they didn’t play nice with the subpoena and I am sure O’Neill and Hachey got grilled by their bosses and the college went into damage control with its defend the college not the case.
As I said in an earlier post there was no template to work from and now you should be happy that future projects of this nature have a template to work from.
Henry, no harm to you but all you have done is blame and find fault, what you have failed to establish is did Anthony and Ed intentionally mislead people and lie to them. The answer is no and again you make the donors sound like fools and idiots.
Perhaps it’s the graffiti on the walls from the mob that influences opinion but these hypocrites had no problem with the people involved as long as they were doing the serious ground work of attacking the Brits and doing stretches in jails for the RM.
I will sit on the side of those involved in the project but keep chipping away as your heading in a new direction mentioning Hachey and O’Neill you hold the hindsight high ground and dance around it as Frankie suggests like the mild mannered janitor.
Why not just say in plain speak that the whole issue was a right ballix and all involved were buck eegits.
You added nothing new just rearranged some words and tossed in a few names I am still unclear where you are heading with this.
The pathos of Deirdre Brennan's photo included in Beth McMurtie article
ReplyDeletehttp://chronicle.com/article/Secrets-from-Belfast/144059/
leaves one in no doubt as to Anthony's closeness to some of the donors. It leaves one in no doubt with regards to his commitment to those involved and to the original honourable objectives of the project.
McMurtie's opening lines;
"Anthony McIntyre made one thing clear: The project had to remain absolutely secret. If Boston College wanted him to interview former members of the Irish Republican Army, he needed that guarantee."
I too have no doubts of his intentions. Unfortunately as everyone now knows things did not evolve as planned.
Is it not legitimate from a perspective of history, curiosity and learning to ask questions as to why not? Of course I agree that my questions are formed with the advantage of hindsight; that's the way it is.
Surely intentions and objectives of any project or enterprise ought at some stage be weighed against specific outcomes and measurable results?
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeletethe subject has been in the public arena long enough for anyone interested to draw conclusion. The project purpose was concluded successfully the information was collected and deposited in BC.
What was there to weigh up apart from the obvious question how safe would the material be? You could also factor in the unpredictable that one or more of the donors could have died a day, a week, or a month after their testimonies were in BC.
The problem with your latest assumption is that you cannot say with accuracy what was weighed up and what was not unless you were privy to information that is not in the public domain. Unless you have knowledge of what was discussed or not then you are only stabbing in the dark and weakening your already very weak arguments.
You have softened down your approach but are still trying to dig half a hole. Have you honestly been objective and asking questions or making statements based in others opinions to date you have not said what is on your mind.
You claim you are now curious and asking questions I have asked you to contact Ed and ask him for answers did you follow up? Did you ask O’Neill any questions?
Your latest post looks like you dropped it into neutral and are playing the good cop, bad cop angle.
It reads very much disingenuous as your prior posts state different. Again you mention McMurtie though I unsure why you seem to consider her opinion the ultimate decider in this. As intellectual as McMurtie may be it would be safe to claim she is not an authority on the IRA or the inner workings of the IRA or today SF.
Now, I mention McMurtie only as she wouldn’t know how things operate on the streets of Paramilitary Northern Ireland. This would be something that would have to be weighed up and not just weighed up roughly but right down to the last grain. How to keep a lid on the interviews which has also been twisted to fit the SF saga, although you enjoy the drama and their spin is that those interviewed hold a bias against SF and the GFA.
Two good reasons for secrecy one being the security forces if they nabbed him with material from former combatants he would be doing time and if the IRA got wind he wouldn’t need to worry about doing time as his time would have been up.
Keep in mind this was in the Murph and Anthony was already on the west Belfast dictators radar I think his wife was pregnant at the time and the lynch mob were up in arms as this was a while after the Provos murdered Vol. Joe O’ Conner. There was a great deal to consider including the danger his personal safety and that of his wife.
If he talked it over with a trustworthy friend I don’t know but here is where the SF bias spin falls on its arse Anthony had no way of being absolutely certain that each person he approached about being interviewed wouldn’t do the dirt and shop him to the Provos.
Fortunately these were solid people who agreed with the idea of having their personal involvement recorded. They done the dirty work so why not have their own memories recorded.
In reverse I am sure the interviewees had that thought cross their minds could they trust Anthony? The answer was yes as they knew he was no brussel just the same way the shins know these people were and are not touts.
Things did go according to plan up until the moment an American judge agreed and handed over the requested material. Comparing your earlier posts to your latest it almost reads like two different people.
I asked in my last post several questions you never answered one and returned with a confusing post that implies you believe Anthony is honourable with his intentions but in other posts you stop short at calling him a wanker over the same intentions.
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ReplyDeleteHenry you haven’t said in your own words what you think on the issue in plain speak. You still haven’t convinced me that Anthony and Ed did a number on the interviewees.
You ignore the miserable piss poor defense BC put on one that they could have fought and protected the material but opted out to save the college face as in America the word “terrorist” is not one that general public like as they would not discern between nut job jihadists’ attacking their country and the IRA attacking the Brits.
Again, why did BC not return the material that legally was not theirs before the subpoena was in the post? Simple answer BC knew they would have to go through the motions and cave in, if they had returned the material they would have had the media ripping them a new arsehole for aiding IRA terrorists and the colleges reputation would be severely damaged.
Anyway, keep digging away I am still unsure where you are going with this or even what point you are trying to prove.
TB I'm sure you're aware of the old adage that there's three sides to every story; his side, her side and the truth. So I hope you'll allow me to scrape away a little more though I'm not particularly certain there's much more fruit to be collected, not at least, in the short term. I think we're going to have to be patient on this one.
ReplyDeleteI've seen Anthony post that often he writes in order to clarify his thoughts and indeed I find it a useful process too. In that context I offer my thanks to you, TB, for your contributions to the dialogue.
Though I don't particularly need nor want your agreement nor approval with or of my opinion, I find your challenges useful in clarifying my thoughts.
You reference my reliance on other commentators, McMurtrie in particular, somehow suggesting that such commentaries are invalid? But given the tendencies to self-justifications and inherent biases of conflicting parties (his side/her side) aren't such observations worthy of consideration too?
From Slugger O'Toole's Blog;
"Beth McMurtrie has published an extensive and well-researched article for The Chronicle of Higher Education.
It examines how the Belfast Project oral history project at Boston College was established and how it has fallen apart in recent years following the PSNI’s request for access to the archive (two months after the British government had “given the college highly sensitive papers related to the disarmament process, to be kept locked away for 30 years”).
What sets Beth’s article apart from much of the other existing commentary [including Slugger] on the Troubles oral history project are her interviews with all the main players, including:
Ed Moloney, project director
Anthony McIntyre, conducted the republican interviews
Thomas Hachey, Boston College’s head of Irish programs
Robert O’Neill, (retired) head of the Burns Library (which holds the archive)
Kevin O’Neill, associate professor of history and former director of the Irish-studies program
Clifford M. Kuhn, executive director of the Oral History Association"
Tain you also rightfully lament Boston College's weak defence of the archive.
ReplyDeleteHowever in truth and in fairness there is written record in Robert O'Neill's response to Ed concerning the original proposal as to the College's inclination in the event of a court order;
"I cannot guarantee, for example, that we would be in a position to refuse to turn over documents on a court order without being held in contempt."
This ought to have raised concerns for Ed and Anthony, particularly given the power imbalances between them and Boston College, of course presuming Anthony was informed to that correspondence.
Whether he was informed or not is something for Anthony to clarify, as it is to whether he was furnished with a copy of Ed's contract of which his own contract was reliant.
If one is to garner a complete understanding of how things evolved aren't these essential and legitimate questions to ask of those who where there?
And if he wasn't given access to those documents (O'Neill's correspondence and Ed's contract) wouldn't it be equally valid to request an explanation as to why not?
We'll also have to agree to disagree as to the College's obligations to the donors as set out in the Donor Contract.
Surely the use of the word 'donor' suggests in itself a transfer of title.
Can I ask Oxfam or Concern to return my past donations now that I have fallen on hard times?
Reading the Agreement for Donation in full suggests to me, though I have no legal expertise, that transfer of title in full was agreed by signing the contract. Ownership transferred to the Trustees of Boston College upon the donor's signature (article 2).
The release referred to in article 3. seems to me to be the release and access to academic researchers and students, with written consent by the donor being required prior to his/her demise.
As I've said before we'd need to talk to a legal expert.
Henry,
ReplyDeleteWhy are you only focusing on Anthny & Ed? Why don't you ask questions like...
1. Why didn't Boston bend over the table and take one for the team?
2. Why couldn't they (Boston) arrange a fire similar to the fire the Stevens team encountered?
3. Why did the PSNI want transcripts that wont stand up in court?
4. If you had of been a "donor' would you have checked out your ontract with a lawyer before speaking?
I'm sure you're aware of the old adage that there's three sides to every story; his side, her side and the truth.
This is closer to the truth.............
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer
German philosopher (1788 - 1860)
I first read that quote Henry when reading The Blanket.. Thats what is happening with the Belfast Project.. First, PSF and others laughed at it. Then Anthony & his family get death threats and is called a tout. Ed gets online abuse. . Sooner or later it will dawn on people that there are more truths in the project than people admit (thats why certain 'dark forces'<--I include PSF) want it sealed in some bunker the same way the Birmingham & Guilford files are locked away for 75yrs..
Henry have you ever asked yourself why loyalists such as William 'Plum' Smith who gave interviews to Boston was refused his tapes when he asked for them back long before the PSNI went on their fishing trip?
As I've said before we'd need to talk to a legal expert.
I said before go and post a question on Ted Folkmans blog.. He's an American lawyer and there is now 91 enteries about the tapes..When I first mentioned Ted he had 90 enteries. I'm not saying he'll give great advice but he'll offer a legal opinion.
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeletewhat is so complicated about this issue that you feign it strains your ability to reason? We could toss in there is four sides as certain people prefer to believe what they want to.
I am not fixated with Anthony I couldn’t care less if he stands on his head in a bathtub chanting whatever shite Liverpool supporters chant.
You on the other hand seem to be fixated with him as you continue with your nail him to the BC cross sitting in your hindsight trench which is fair enough but you still have yet to share your own personal view on the subject.
Henry, I made no suggestions on McMurtie my first reference to you introducing the piece was “that’s a nice wee story” as I had read it several times before just as I made the effort to read anything on the issue the good, the bad, and the ugly, and of course even captain brain fart Bangers call for blood as if he is the proud guardian of the touts and agents that brought the RM down.
I am not disputing her work but joining the dots as you are not interested in the paper but seem to believe it validates your hindsight arguments. Citing an article for The Chronicle of Higher Education is fair enough and I am sure academics enjoy it but you are not interested in its academic merit only the bits that turn that clog in your mind.
On the opposite end of that spectrum there is another world of education called the school of paramilitaries they don’t sit in fancy colleges talking in dry big words. If academics or historians get a chance to get inside that world of course they are going to want to.
How very polite of you the PSNI request access and there sits big man O’Neill in his ivory tower chuffed at how the Brits give the Burns Library the official surrender material for safe keeping.
And his shocked response why would the Brits give me this and then want that I think he has been smoking too much of the happy cigs. He is supposedly a smart man but he couldn’t figure out the difference between the Brit material that got the PIRA surrender and the material from former members talking about how they might have used those arms.
That shows how naïve he is but in academic dry language buck eegit is not on the cards.
I have been following this longer than I care to remember and read and reread articles to the point of boredom as I said before I have looked for info that would back up your fishing expedition looking for something to square off against Anthony over but haven’t found anything to date.
You have your dukes up but don’t say much instead you continue with the hindsight rules and your posts are ducking and weaving but still not even close to making contact let alone that knockout punch.
In reality away from higher learning the project came under attack from a foreign government and is still under attack it didn’t just magically fall apart that sort of excuses the intrusive demanding Brits.
When the peelers got wind of it this was no issue of law in the interest of solving crimes. This was a right kick in the balls for MI5 down through the ranks this was personal and worse a political embarrassment.
How did these people manage to gather sensitive material right under the security forces noses. Perhaps they were all caught up in Sinn Fein’s merriment and were too busy polishing their new buttons.
Even if there was no MLAT treaty do you or McMurtie believe that the Brits wouldn’t eventually get the material from their mates in the American government? It would be nice to believe the dry clear cut world of academia but much like the school of paramilitaries there is also the schools of friendly nations and dirty deals.
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ReplyDeleteThe BC project is small fish but one the Brits wanted as they don’t like when someone pulls a fast one and they have no control over it.
I am sure Bangers and his article on touts was his way of venting about how many touts and agents were perched in the rank and file.
I will return in a bit and answer the other post as for now I am away to escape and read Primo Levi and maybe gawk at some more ET stories as Frankie has planted the seed as that one goes I think he has a better chance of convincing me of ET than you have of nailing people to your BC cross.
Frankie, William 'plum' Smith and the other loyalists were refused return of their taped interviews for exactly the reasons outlined in my previous post ... the donor agreement gave title in full to Boston College ... they were not legally bound to accede to such requests.
ReplyDeleteWould I have taken legal advice if I were a donor? Most likely yes, I tend to be one of life's skeptics, I have a brother a lawyer too. Though I can see circumstances, for example if asked by a trusted comrade, someone whom I considered worthy of a place in the pantheon of Irish Republican heroes, then perhaps not. However I would have expected the researcher and all involved in the project to have exercised due diligence and to be able to stand over their guarantees in such circumstances.
If Frankie, I then discovered on the seizure of the testimonies that neither the representatives of sponsoring college, the project leader nor the researchers had sought a legal opinion ... wouldn't you ... or any reasonable, neutral, objective and fair-minded person say I had grounds to be somewhat disgruntled?
ReplyDelete3. Why did the PSNI want transcripts that wont stand up in court?
They won't stand up in criminal proceedings but I wonder what value thy might have in a civil case?
There are also former members of the RUC now doing contract work for the PSNI who also have interests in companies in the Contract Security sector that operate worldwide. They have a vested interest in promoting their own reputation, enhancing their prestige and hence earning capacity; and of course possibilities to write and publish accounts of their exploits too.
2. Why couldn't they (Boston) arrange a fire similar to the fire the Stevens team encountered?
Can't comment on that!
1. Why didn't Boston bend over the table and take one for the team?
For the same reason Tonto abandoned the Lone Ranger ... when the shit hits the fan ... particularly where there's an unequal power relationship ... you'll generally find Frankie that it's the more powerful party who does the riding. In my experience it's not their style to bend over and take one for the team!
As Henry Joy McCracken is reported to have said "The rich will always betray the poor".
I still think it's a legitimate question to ask even with the benefit of hindsight as to why the other parties to the oral history project, including the UVF who met as a 'corporate group' to endorse participation of their members, didn't anticipate what to me appears reasonably predictable behavior from a powerful institution when it comes under pressure.
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeleteI am not lamenting I am highly critical of the defense but with the right words I could make slopping out sound like an enjoyable group activity. Her Majesty should have had a go at slopping out as part of the experience of her mocking visit to the Crum.
What exactly does that mean in your mind it is a strong left hook in mine it’s another jab. It is interesting and would have raised a red flag if it was minus the “being held in contempt.” Does it mean he was willing to defend academic freedom to the point of being held in contempt?
It certainly is suggestive and at minimal implies a willingness to possibly need to defend to the point of contempt.
A post back you spoofed that you think Anthony was honourable and a post later you seem to question his intentions again. The problem with your arguments being that you are on the rip looking to nail Anthony and Ed.
You have narrowed the entire project down to minor points that you feign cause you problems which I find incredibly difficult to believe. What happened to your claim of without ridicule or blame?
Again, have you made the effort to contact Ed and ask him to clarify some issues you have? I will direct you to the Boston College Subpoena site it is as transparent as Anthony and Ed have been on the subject.
I thought McMurtie chronicled how things evolved with a few blokes meeting in the opening salvo which is still a little too much on the fictional spy novel side for me, but you approved of her version of how this evolved and how its demise is on the horizon.
Now you claim you are seeking a greater understanding? If you were remotely interested in a greater understanding then how is it that you narrow it down to certain points and keep blaming Anthony and ED as you continue to weave a pattern that you admit confuses you I am still wondering what is so confusing.
Just a moot point but did you by any chance read the article on this thread or does the bias you hold against Ed override his recollection of how this evolved or does it offer a reasonable explanation adequate enough that it does not need further elaboration, does it offer anything that would help you with your need for a greater understanding.
Perhaps it is the power of the internet but to be unequivocally blunt Anthony and Ed or anyone involved do not owe us any explanation has the Belfast Project affected you personally, has it caused you any physical distress or altered, changed your life in any shape form or manner?
Apart from you feigning mental stress and confusion over the issue, which does not count and why do you believe you are entitled to an in-depth explanation regarding the project.
Both Anthony and Ed have been open and honest and the subject is extremely well documented and available at the click of a button which if you trudge through the documentation that might provide you with a wider understanding. There is also a fair share of nonsense out there but Ed explains that in the article.
Now what would be sketchy is if there was no information made available to the public that would raise the red flag of what are they hiding but even with all the factual information this issue has had more yarns than a wool shop with crackpot spins on the project.
Your claim of seeking a greater understanding translates in my mind as you being on a fishing expedition in the Dead Sea. Considering the two people you have a beef with have put themselves in the court of public opinion and have been as transparent as possible on the issue there is not much room for not understanding.
Unless of course if you read the graffiti and follow the mob then I could see the need for a greater understanding but the mob are happy with the explanation that Anthony and Ed along with BC set out to stitch up Adams.
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ReplyDeleteWould the imbalance of power be obvious an academic institution employing a historian and a researcher, what power should Ed and Anthony had?
Even if Anthony did not read Ed’s contract what does that prove? Let’s assume he did not read it gets his own contract gives it the up and down a few times and understands it.
As we know he went on collected the material and fulfilled his contractual obligation to BC. If he read it or not it wasn’t a problem and didn’t hinder him in his own contractual obligations. Ed fulfilled his own contractual obligations to the college job done time for Kit Kat bar.
If either had problems with the contracts giving the nature of the material then it would be safe to assume they would have hammered out a new contract.
Henry, what are you rambling about the donor contract is 3 paragraphs are you taking the piss? Your well has dried up the word donor is apt as the interviewee was making a donation to an archive. Would it sound any better if it said interviewee contract?
No it is not a transfer of title it is simply an agreement that the ownership of the material is that of the interviewee or the donor to be kept safe in the Burns Library in BC the transfer of ownership is clear, stone cold clear as in after death unless otherwise stipulated.
You don’t need a legal wiz to read and understand the contract even with your advantage of hindsight your arguments are not advancing.
You can ask Oxfam anything you want but in hindsight you should have held on to your donations as you never know when hard times are at your door.
Unfortunately Henry, I don’t need to talk with a legal expert you see my better half just happens to be one and her dinner ticket just happens to be Contract Law.
Funny enough a while back I was missing a few quid and asked her if she had seen it. She pulled it out and said aye and I asked for it she says no way and cited precedent of Finders Keepers versus Losers Weepers.
I won’t add her tuppence on the issue of contracts as you might suggest she is bias but she is not as she has no idea about the Belfast Project and could care less for the political ballix of Northern Ireland, unless it’s a human rights issue.
Do you consider along with the hindsight advantage you and I have the advantage of using a moniker even though Anthony has no problem with that in this case puts Ed and Anthony at a disadvantage you claim you want a greater understanding but anonymity doesn’t add up to transparency I am not being a smart arse but why would Anthony feel obligated to respond or clarify any point with an anonymous person?
Why do you believe that this was somehow predictable and how do you predict the possible outcome of a project that had never been done before. You are still using hindsight trying to cinch your present attacks on Anthony and Ed and now you have added the rest of the project.
It still looks like a dog chasing its own tail.
You still have yet to explain your own personal view on the issue without hindsight as even with hindsight you narrow it down to one predictable outcome that just happens to be the well established outcome so is it a solid prediction or just the truth of how it turned out?
You haven’t established what Anthony and Ed and the donors did wrong but you believe if you were one of the donors you might have sought legal advice which is pure shite as paramilitaries don’t think about seeking third party advice, maybe a private conversation with a trusted comrade but not a brief as a brief is not one of them, the risk would be talking with someone they couldn’t trust and the outcome of that reaching other combatants would mean a possible death sentence. That is a great risk to assume for some advice.
Anyway the damage is done no changing that so why insist on hindsight as it is a bit late in the day unless it makes you feel superior and you could have done a better job.
William 'plum' Smith and the other loyalists were refused return of their taped interviews for exactly the reasons outlined in my previous post ... the donor agreement gave title in full to Boston College ... they were not legally bound to accede to such requests.
ReplyDeleteBoston have said if they knew who was who they'd return the rest of the tapes...
Boston is willing to hand interviews back to former paramilitaries who took part.
Why couldn't or wouldn't they do it before the PSNI went sniffing the Vaults of Boston?
As I've said before we'd need to talk to a legal expert.
I said before go and post a question on Ted Folkmans blog..
I have a brother a lawyer too.
Ask your brother!!!!!
Would I have taken legal advice if I were a donor? Most likely yes, I tend to be one of life's sceptics, I have a brother a lawyer too. Though I can see circumstances, for example if asked by a trusted comrade, someone whom I considered worthy of a place in the pantheon of Irish Republican heroes, then perhaps not.
Henry this is where I'm having problems in following your logic, point of view. In one breath you say you'd get it checked out by a lawyer then on the other you wouldn't.. it's either or.
However I would have expected the researcher and all involved in the project to have exercised due diligence and to be able to stand over their guarantees in such circumstances.
As in? Anthony is on record several times saying he is prepared to go to jail to protect his sources. What else can a journalist/researcher do..? He has said he'll protect the source.
I then discovered on the seizure of the testimonies that neither the representatives of sponsoring college, the project leader nor the researchers had sought a legal opinion ... wouldn't you ... or any reasonable, neutral, objective and fair-minded person say I had grounds to be somewhat disgruntled?
And that again throws more confusion in my mind about the points you are making Henry.. It's retro.. it's hindsight. I'll go out on a limb and say (JMO) the interviewee's are pissed off at Boston and the PSNI and not the interviewers. Why are you taking Bob O'Neil's word that there wasn't a blanket promise that nothing would be disclosed unless the lead researchers gave their nod? Why can't you accept Anthony's & Ed's word?
For the same reason Tonto abandoned the Lone Ranger ... when the shit hits the fan ... particularly where there's an unequal power relationship ... you'll generally find Frankie that it's the more powerful party who does the riding. In my experience it's not their style to bend over and take one for the team!
I'm not disagreeing for the sake of it but in my defence I've had one or two good ladies ride me and I never took one for the team. Boston folded like a bunch of pussies and got frightened at the sight of the PSNI truncheon porking them. They didn't even try to put up a fight. The only mistake Anthony, Ed & Winston made was allowing Voices to be published when it was. If it wasn't published no one who be any wiser.
As Henry Joy McCracken is reported to have said "The rich will always betray the poor".
Again the researchers are on record and have been reported saying Bob & Co gave assurances nothing was to be released unless they had given the nod. Why can't or don't you believe Ed & Anthony when they said "Bob said everything would be tighter than a ducks arse."
In one of the biographies of the painter John Lavery, Lavery recounts a visit and meeting between Michael Collins, Lavery's wife Hazel and Moya Llewelyn Davies, in the immediate days before the signing of the treaty.
ReplyDeleteHe recalls harsh and heated exchanges between Collins and the two females though he doesn't specify what the argument was about.
He does however make the wry comment "it always seems to me that when people are loosing their temper, they're loosing the argument".
I hope you're not loosing your temper Tain. It sounds to me you as if you are on yet another incoherent rant.
My criticism of failures to take independent legal advice is apportioned equally to those that conceived and carried out the project though not at the donors. Even in the event of advice having been sought and given, there may still be, I propose, an ethical consideration as to advising donors to take their own independent advice, even if this causes further logistical and as in this case very real potential threats to the security of the project.
A decent SWOT analysis would have highlighted most if not all these and then efforts could have been taken to overcome or minimise any threats or weaknesses. Until such issues were satisfactorily resolved it would have been better to delay the project further.
Such failures as I have just outlined, for me and in my opinion, leads to what I see as valid sequential questions as to why such oversights happened and were allowed to happen.
That you don't agree with my opinion is quite clear. As you are entitled to your opinion I'm entitled to mine. You don't have to agree with everything I say Tain ... in fact you don't have to agree with anything I ... or anyone else for that matter, says.
I am still content enough to stand over my comments and if anything further is revealed which contradicts my take on the narrative I will be happy to correct or recant.
In the meantime maybe we'd leave it to readers to decide the merits or otherwise of my points and indeed yours ... (when you make one) ... for themselves. Once again it seems to me from the tone of your responses that your intent is to bring more heat than light.
Henry JoY,
ReplyDeleteif I was losing the bap you and the quill would know but before you give yourself another self appointed victory what makes you believe that you could get on my wick?
I would agree with you if you were actually arguing instead of using other peoples words to validate the points you feign cause you mental confusion. Anyway If I lose the bap which one of you should I go on a bender at?
Which one of you smart blokes decided that talking with me and my incoherent ramblings would further your fishing expedition. You can wait on the readers to decide if you are winning your one sided hindsight battle.
No offense to the readers but isn’t that just the same as tossing in bits of McMurtie instead of arguing the entire paper. But you are not interested in arguing the subject instead you are pissing in the hindsight winds.
You and your muckers need to get together and do the group hug and then remember who said what.
The reason you can’t contact Ed is simple he requires a name and if you were even remotely interested in speaking with the man I am sure I could square you away with a number and you and him could talk in private but that would mean you would have to be transparent and we both know that is not on the cards.
If you were being constructively critical that would be noted but kid gloves off all you are doing is attacking Anthony and Ed and the donors. Have you taken your own issues to a brief and sorted the legality make sure the brief is aware of your hindsight power that way no mistakes on the briefs part.
Wouldn’t life just have been wonderful if Henry had been in the Ra and Anthony went to him and the bold Henry would have yanked out his crystal ball or is that balls and done the whole act of seeing the future poor aul Anthony would have to get on the blower and call off the project on the advice of the mystic Henry.
Using your hindsight logic the truth is even with all the problems you rant about the project was a success but you can ignore that as that doesn’t fit into your fishing expedition on the Dead Sea.
Isn’t it a bit ridiculous that you are demanding transparency but remain invisible you could be a spook, or worse a shin as you do sound like captain brain fart bangers.
Have you trudged through the Subpoena site plenty of answers there but that would mean endless hours of boring reading but you like snip bits and there are a few on that site that would help you out.
Henry if you are going to insist on transparency and demanding answers have the balls to level the field out and I am sure Ed and Anthony would be more than willing to natter although I am not sure how much more transparent they could be.
Anyway Henry’s you can knock the mild mannered janitor act on the head you mumble and grumble but don’t say anything much. Belfast Project 1 Henry’s 0 at least I know where the term your talking Henry’s came from quite apt.
Good luck with your dig at Oxfam great way to cite listen to me I am buck eegit. When you get back on your toes and make a donation don’t get into a dig over the word donor. Don’t worry about my temper the shrink says as long as I keep taking the magic tablets I will be sound.
Keep chasing your tail or is that tales or even tails no Henry Joy today more like Henry Woe.
We've had the group hug re-read the complete thread and all are in agreement ... (save that the mild mannered janitor believes he ought to have been milder) ... that for us the bottom line is (that) Boston College, it's representatives and agents all had a duty of care to the donors. Didn't the College, it's representatives and agents, fail in that duty as evidenced by the seizure of some of the donated testimonies?
ReplyDeleteThat some of the parties were outrageously and wilfully deceitful and negligent (by not taking legal advice whilst implying and suggesting that they had) and others were naive-fully negligent (by believing the others' claims of legal soundness and not seeking their own independent legal advice) is documented. Regrettably and unfortunately considering the way things turned out these differences between individuals in relation to their collective duties of care may now merely be a moot point.
"The concept of duty of care has evolved considerably in recent decades, and the law now recognises duty of care as having three components:
(a.) The harm to be protected against must be foreseeable;
(b) The claimant and defendant need to be in proximity to one another, either physically, by way of some legal relationship, or by some other means; and
(c.) It must be fair, just and reasonable for the defendant to have a duty of care to the claimant."
Ref: Negligence Law: Findlaw UK.
(i) Whereas it was reasonable at the time of the initiation of the Belfast Oral History Project and during the collections of the interviews to hope that prosecutions would not be vigorously pursued (the political powers and securocrats wanted the 'Peace Process' firmly embedded before that would happen) there was in reality no firm basis in law that prevented such happening. There wasn't nor hasn't been a general amnesty enacted, though in certain quarters the hope was there that people would not be prosecuted.
But hope like trust can be a slippery stone.
Prosecutions may have seemed improbable but they were not impossible. Hence wasn't possible harm foreseeable?
(ii) The donors had a signed agreement with the trustees of Boston College. Surely proximity exists?
(iii) Wouldn't it be difficult for either Tom Hachey, Robert O'Neill, Ed Moloney or Anthony to argue that it would be unfair, unjust or unreasonable for them to owe a duty of care to the donors?
I don't think Anthony or Ed have done or do that. In fairness to Ed he has a proven track record on maintaining confidentiality of sources. Likewise I believe Anthony would do more time to protect his sources as he has indicated.
When a man/woman stands on a slippery stone and falls; s/he falls not just for himself/herself but for those coming behind.
Oughtn't the slippery stones be marked out or removed before those that might travel the road at some time in the future have the same slip ups?
Isn't marking and removing slippery stones part of the function of history?
And if that is part of the function of history; doesn't the value of history become limited by the degree it is incomplete as it does when it's partisan or biased?
Henry,
ReplyDeleteyou are citing negligence but have yet to establish negligence or intentional negligence or even misrepresentation. How would it be possible to establish a certain event in the future I don’t believe you have even established vicarious liability.
You are using English law would the same be applied in US law as their law varies from state to state. Civil negligence is not the same as criminal negligence.
Did Anthony collect the donations under false pretense, did he use duplicitous methods to obtain said donations, and did he willfully deceive the donors and obtain their agreement for use not stipulated in the contract. Did Ed willfully manipulate Anthony and use Anthony in any other manner other than stipulated in the employer employee contract.
Far away from Boston and higher learning we can safely assume given the material and those that the material(s) were collected from that the question of confidentiality and risk would have been considered. In that circle breaking the rule means getting a bullet in the nut so that more closer to home threat would have been assessed and after signing they assume risk why would they take the greater risk of donating knowing that if leaked would put them on a hit list.
Why would they not demand a guarantee in the contract that could protect them from the possible future threat of death? I am unsure how much of the paramilitary world you understand there is a great deal you won’t find in any books. To assume that the donors and Anthony were operating under the premise that this was in concrete 100% safe would be naïve.
Even if there was a clause in the contract that guaranteed safe keeping to the hilt or even if BC managed to tie the case up in the courts which they could have done. In this case the Brits would have made a deal behind closed doors and eventually get what they want.
This was more a matter of going through the motions of law but circumventing the law and putting political pressure on BC saying folding is in the best interests of America and its ally England. What chance did Anthony and Ed stand with their own legal battle to prevent the handover? Why bother putting themselves in debt over it if they were negligent?
I am not about to become a cheerleader for the corrupt Brit governments as I view this as an extension of their dirty war along with the loss inflicted on academic freedoms.
Let’s say, BC won and all was well do you believe the Brits would agree. No, they would obtain the entire collection by the old fashioned way that governments obtain other secret and classified material.
As soon as the Brits got wind of this the show was on so they go through the legal channels. MI5 and MI6 would have said alright we need the collection not just parts of it. So they find a stooge and say here’s 50 grand get us a copy of it and if you don’t then we will make sure your nice wee life is stitched up.MI5 and their mates in the CIA would have no problem getting the entire project and if you think it is not already on a desk in the MI5 shop think again.
Anyway, neither Anthony nor Ed could have guaranteed they would be around a clatter of years after the project began. Much the same way I couldn’t guarantee that I will be around to continue this argument.
ReplyDeleteThat aside you would have to establish intentional neglect which is not the same as a simple human error of oversight, which at best is your entire argument. Did the gang of 4 set out to mislead people, no, why would any of the gang of 4 want to go through all the problems that arose long after the project was complete and gathering dust?
Out of the four Anthony is the one who is under the greatest threat if you believe bangers article was just having a go, think again as that was his slimy way of calling for Anthony’s blood. You sound a bit iffy on Anthony not disclosing his sources I would put up a thousand quid to your one quid that he never will?
Henry the donors are not guidable people today’s Northern Ireland is not the same as the 70s and these people are well seasoned they are the bold Fenian men and women not to be confused with that other lot the sold Fenian men and women.
On the issue of possible attacks from the dirty Brits on the project can you say with a truth that this might have been a deterrent and those involved would have backed out or did those involved consider it as part of the risk of the conflict and wanted to record their memories?
When they volunteered back in the day they understood the risk and were guaranteed if lucky a good six month run, they could be shot dead or wounded, and most certainly knew they would be doing time. You can argue they were duped but that doesn’t fit the bill would recording their memories not be in a sense having a last dig at the Brits and telling the truth of why ordinary people caught up in the not so normal circumstances did what they did?
Henry I have done my homework on the issue and if I had found fault with Anthony or Ed then I would have raised the issue. Your entire argument is weak at best and legally there is nothing misleading in the contracts. I doubt Vol. Brendan Hughes or Vol. Dolours Price had any difficulty understanding what they were signing. I could argue that they both wanted this out in the open exposing the great betrayal of Adams & Co. Who sold the cause and paint themselves as innocent but for some unexplained reasons these innocent uninvolved leaders call the donors the BC touts. If they are innocent and were not involved why would they incite the mob with their oxymoronic claim of touts? Obviously someone is spoofing and considering the Brits made many generous offers to recruit Brendan Hughes which he refused I think we can reasonably say his creditability is intact as for Adams we could say he had no problem accepting Brit offers.
You haven’t proved negligence all you are doing is highlighting assumption there was no breach of contract between the parties. If Anthony had forged a donors signature that would be a breach or if someone had added something after a contract was signed without the donor’s knowledge that would make the contract worthless.
BC failed to defend certain material though political pressure would guarantee that the material sought would be handed over. The outcome probably would be different if the case was heard in a courtroom of an impartial country.
Henry let's get a few things straight. I never agreed to a group anything least of all a hug. That sounds too gay for me. I'm not and I don't care if any one is. But all this group hugging comes across as tad gay (jmo).
ReplyDeleteWhy are you breaking balls ? The only mistake made concerning the Belfast Project was the release of Voices. What I'm a loss trying to understand is why aren't you venting your anger, energy or other to exposing the hyprocrisy of the PSNI fishing trip, They want the tapes but not to prosecute anyone. They can arrest and charge who they want for any reason at any time. What they want is to turn the history of the conflict into like reading Google books.. pages will be missing.
Thats the short version.
Frankie,
ReplyDeleteThat would be a bit queer but I think you picked it up wrong I told Henry that him and his mates should do the group hug and sort out who said what. As the posts seemed to vary and lacked consistency so I thought is it Henry or Henry’s and Henry replied that it was sorted as all his ducks are in a row on the thread but I am not so sure. Anyway I doubt the regulars are into the hugging caper but I am sure somewhere someone would moan that is homophobic.
It would be sound if he was breaking balls but on this one there is no solid reason to connect never mind busting balls. It would be different if he was arguing facts and not trying to create his own version of fact but it’s the quill and almost anything goes. The latest comments on the sewer section of the quill would prove that.
I suppose as long as Henry keeps firing up the hypothetical trying to square blame I will be happy to fire back not to prove him wrong as he has yet to prove himself right. Away from the legal banter and blame the history collected should have been left for future generations to gain an understanding of the conflict instead of the censored version another chapter in Irish history condensed and missing pages as you say.
TB thanks for clarifying the group hug thing for Frankie. Humorous word play in that post too!
ReplyDeleteWorking with the phone and will be for the next month ... limited web accrss too. So my comments will have to be brief.
Understandable that I appear to be attempting to break balls. Not so. I have clarified this srveral times.
As someone who has a lifetime of trading in secrets behind them I'd like to think I bring a healthy skepticism to the discussion. You guys insist on interpreting this as condensation. At least this is as to how it appears to me.
Any agenda I have is merely to penetrate the truth of the narrative thus far. And assess the impact and implications for further oral history collection.
Now back to 'el vino de verano' and Amos Oz's "To Know A Woman".
Henry,
ReplyDeleteno problem on that one anyway I told you I would back you up if something was not right. I don’t think Frankie was implying anything just stating he was having none of that.
As for breaking balls for the most part of the thread it has been you and me doing the keyboard shuffle.
Frankie would call it as he sees it and if I was breaking balls or talking shite I am sure he would take a fair swipe and give me both barrels. That option is open to all the readers.
Fair enough, you bring a dose of skepticism in what you see as truth I remain unconvinced.
No matter, good luck with getting sorted I couldn’t use a phone my eyes would just laugh and tell me to wise up as I have enough trouble with a computer screen.
Henry,
ReplyDeletesince you are at a disadvantage of using the phone and phones are notorious for changing words about. We can have at it later on down the line and that will keep things even.
Henry,
ReplyDeleteI can't buy into the ' sorry limited internet', especially in western Europe. This is 2014 not 1420. All anyone needs to connect to the web is a 'droid, Iphone, Mac or PC/lappy...