Caoimhin O’Muraile sees a misappropriation of the Irish national flag when waved by the Irish far right.

Since the formation of the twenty-six county Irish Free State (Saorstat Eireann) in 1922 the battle for the tricolour, the Irish, flag began. For those who signed or supported the treaty with Britain on 6th December 1921, albeit reluctantly, the national flag belonged to them, who saw Irish unification as an aspiration to be pursued and the oath of allegiance to the British Monarch was an “empty formula”.

This was strongly disputed hotly by those who opposed the treaty, claiming it was a betrayal of our national sovereignty and, therefore the flag, and who continued the battle for the republic of thirty-two counties and no oath of allegiance to the British monarch. For the republicans, with much justification, The Republic had already been proclaimed at Eater week 1916 and reaffirmed on 21st January 1919 in the First Dail Eireann, an argument which even today is perfectly valid. 

Those who formed the government of the Free State, later in 1949 becoming the twenty-six county Republic of Ireland, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail claim now the oath has been abolished since the [December] 1937 constitution that everything which has occurred since the formation of the state were/are “stepping stones” towards that republic. For me stepping stones are something which assists in gaining access from one bank of a river to another, separated by short gaps. The stepping stones various governments in Dublin allude to have gaps between them of a century, hardly stepping stones at all, more like invisible horizon to invisible horizon. To use stepping stones to transcend such distances would result in drowning, which as far as the government in the Dail are concerned is where the republic of 1916 is at. Prior to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 at republican social evenings the song; Take it Down From the Mast Irish Traitors could be regularly heard – referring to the tricolour which republicans claimed has been betrayed. However, since the signing of the GFA by Sinn Fein (Provisional) this song is heard less often, as now in the opinion of some the words could refer to them! The rights and wrongs of this argument is not the purpose of this short piece but the arrival in recent years of far-right interlopers is.

In February 2019 a group of far-right activists founded Anti-Corruption Ireland which describes itself as “a political movement” promoting “truth, justice and integrity in public office” which sounds very progressive. Do not be fooled by this wolf in sheep’s clothing. The reality is ACI are a far-right movement which is racist, vehemently opposing Muslim immigration into Ireland, homophobic, anti-Semitic and even opposes the HPV vaccine. This vaccine helps prevent Human Papillomaviruses which is said to prevent seventy percent of cervical cancers. 

In March and April 2019, the Imperial and Maritime hotels in Cork, and a pub in Sligo cancelled meetings by this fascist organisation. ”In April 2019, the Ballyvolane House Hotel in Cork cancelled public meetings that had been booked by ACI”, citing the views and policies of a leading member as the reason for the cancellation. These people, and other far-right organisations, such as the Irish Freedom Party who share platforms with far-right British politicians like Nigel Farage, spout nothing but hatred for minority groups. They sport the tricolour at their rallies in much the same way their sister organisations in Britain, The British National Party, the English Defence League and Britain First hijack the Union Jack. It may well be true to say the Union jack, certainly historically, has much more in common with British fascists than the Irish tricolour has with their Irish counterparts. 

One leading member of these Irish far-right groups claimed the LBGT community and their left-wing allies forced him out of journalism. He reportedly claimed they were “worse than the Black and Tans” and went on to rant “bring back the Black and Tans”. How can people who in any way support or give credence to these murderous thugs, the Black and Tans, claim any loyalty to the tricolour? Dublin Bus mistakenly at one point advertised the ACI on their vehicles but after a letter from the National Bus and Rail Union General Secretary, Dermot O’Leary, pointing out “Dublin Bus is a multicultural employer” and stating advertising such organisations as ACI goes against the company’s employment policies, and the unions position the advertisements were subsequently removed.

These groups are using the present COVID pandemic, and people’s frustrations at the governments perceived inability to move the vaccine programme along faster coupled with being brassed off with lockdown, to recruit people for their warped cause. The object is to bring people along to meetings, marches, demonstrations against lockdown and wearing facemasks citing civil liberties, or lack of, to go against the government’s guidelines and rules. Do not fall for it, their agenda is far more sinister and very little to do with the pandemic. They want a receptive audience which, once they have this pretending to champion the people’s frustrations at lockdown and facemasks their real agenda will surface. Less and less will be discussed about the pandemic and the draconian rules which accompany it, and more about the presence of black people, Muslims, anti-LGBT and various forms of xenophobia will come to the fore. It would be hoped, by the far-right, people will forget the real reason they are attending the meetings, lockdown and opposition to it, and will be sucked into this diatribe of hate filled trash spewed out of the mouths of these modern-day Hitlers. Do not be sucked in by it. 

So, how can these people claim to show allegiance to the tricolour? Their politics, if that be what they are, are an antithesis to what the flag stands for. Let us just remind ourselves what the Irish flag stands for. It represents the two major traditions on the island of Ireland, the green and the orange, some say Catholic green and orange Protestantism, I will just say green and orange leaving religious connotations out of it. The white separating these two traditions represents peace, not hate as the far-right stand for, peace between the Orange and Green, yet everything the ACI and kindred organisations spout is about hatred, hatred for ethnic groups, hatred for religious minorities, hatred for Gay and lesbian people, in fact hatred for anybody who does not fit their description of humanity.

For the record the Irish Tricolour was a gift from revolutionary France in 1848. It is based on the French Tricolour (Tricolore in French) which when formally adopted in 1794 symbolised the values of the French Revolution, liberty, equality, brotherhood, democracy, and secularism. The third French Revolution of 1848, forming the second republic, was one of a series of uprisings across Europe as 1848 became known as the “year of revolutions”. We even had a mini rising in Ireland, amid terrible hunger at that time, which is sometimes referred to as; “The Battle of Widow McCormack’s Cabbage Patch” in County Tipperary, carried out by the Young Irelanders. 

The Irish flag was first flown in Waterford in 1848 and was put together by the widows and daughters of the United Irishmen. It was brought to Ireland by Thomas Francis Meagher (Tomas Proinseas Meachair) from the revolutionaries in France, a connection dating back to the United Irish Movement in the 1790s. How can the far-right who preach only hatred claim an allegiance to a flag which symbolises the absolute opposite? 

The presence of the tricolour on demonstrations, often resulting in violence, may be to give the false impression of a republican presence. This is not the case, do not be fooled, it is designed to do just that creating an impression of a presence which is not there. The five tenets of Irish Republicanism; nationalism [liberation], secularism, socialism, non-sectarianism and separatism are not present in the minds of these fascist interlopers. Not once have I heard in the narrative of these far-right organisations, any reference to the British presence in the six counties. 

At a time commemorating forty years since the republican hunger strikes we hear not an utterance from these far-right groups remembering the ten republican hunger strikers. That is because they are not republican, they have nothing in common with Irish Republicanism and the presence of the tricolour at their demonstrations, apart from being an insult, is a ruse to con the gullible.

Caoimhin O’Muraile is a Dublin based Marxist. 

Far-Right Interlopers Try To Claim The Tricolour

Caoimhin O’Muraile sees a misappropriation of the Irish national flag when waved by the Irish far right.

Since the formation of the twenty-six county Irish Free State (Saorstat Eireann) in 1922 the battle for the tricolour, the Irish, flag began. For those who signed or supported the treaty with Britain on 6th December 1921, albeit reluctantly, the national flag belonged to them, who saw Irish unification as an aspiration to be pursued and the oath of allegiance to the British Monarch was an “empty formula”.

This was strongly disputed hotly by those who opposed the treaty, claiming it was a betrayal of our national sovereignty and, therefore the flag, and who continued the battle for the republic of thirty-two counties and no oath of allegiance to the British monarch. For the republicans, with much justification, The Republic had already been proclaimed at Eater week 1916 and reaffirmed on 21st January 1919 in the First Dail Eireann, an argument which even today is perfectly valid. 

Those who formed the government of the Free State, later in 1949 becoming the twenty-six county Republic of Ireland, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail claim now the oath has been abolished since the [December] 1937 constitution that everything which has occurred since the formation of the state were/are “stepping stones” towards that republic. For me stepping stones are something which assists in gaining access from one bank of a river to another, separated by short gaps. The stepping stones various governments in Dublin allude to have gaps between them of a century, hardly stepping stones at all, more like invisible horizon to invisible horizon. To use stepping stones to transcend such distances would result in drowning, which as far as the government in the Dail are concerned is where the republic of 1916 is at. Prior to the signing of the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 at republican social evenings the song; Take it Down From the Mast Irish Traitors could be regularly heard – referring to the tricolour which republicans claimed has been betrayed. However, since the signing of the GFA by Sinn Fein (Provisional) this song is heard less often, as now in the opinion of some the words could refer to them! The rights and wrongs of this argument is not the purpose of this short piece but the arrival in recent years of far-right interlopers is.

In February 2019 a group of far-right activists founded Anti-Corruption Ireland which describes itself as “a political movement” promoting “truth, justice and integrity in public office” which sounds very progressive. Do not be fooled by this wolf in sheep’s clothing. The reality is ACI are a far-right movement which is racist, vehemently opposing Muslim immigration into Ireland, homophobic, anti-Semitic and even opposes the HPV vaccine. This vaccine helps prevent Human Papillomaviruses which is said to prevent seventy percent of cervical cancers. 

In March and April 2019, the Imperial and Maritime hotels in Cork, and a pub in Sligo cancelled meetings by this fascist organisation. ”In April 2019, the Ballyvolane House Hotel in Cork cancelled public meetings that had been booked by ACI”, citing the views and policies of a leading member as the reason for the cancellation. These people, and other far-right organisations, such as the Irish Freedom Party who share platforms with far-right British politicians like Nigel Farage, spout nothing but hatred for minority groups. They sport the tricolour at their rallies in much the same way their sister organisations in Britain, The British National Party, the English Defence League and Britain First hijack the Union Jack. It may well be true to say the Union jack, certainly historically, has much more in common with British fascists than the Irish tricolour has with their Irish counterparts. 

One leading member of these Irish far-right groups claimed the LBGT community and their left-wing allies forced him out of journalism. He reportedly claimed they were “worse than the Black and Tans” and went on to rant “bring back the Black and Tans”. How can people who in any way support or give credence to these murderous thugs, the Black and Tans, claim any loyalty to the tricolour? Dublin Bus mistakenly at one point advertised the ACI on their vehicles but after a letter from the National Bus and Rail Union General Secretary, Dermot O’Leary, pointing out “Dublin Bus is a multicultural employer” and stating advertising such organisations as ACI goes against the company’s employment policies, and the unions position the advertisements were subsequently removed.

These groups are using the present COVID pandemic, and people’s frustrations at the governments perceived inability to move the vaccine programme along faster coupled with being brassed off with lockdown, to recruit people for their warped cause. The object is to bring people along to meetings, marches, demonstrations against lockdown and wearing facemasks citing civil liberties, or lack of, to go against the government’s guidelines and rules. Do not fall for it, their agenda is far more sinister and very little to do with the pandemic. They want a receptive audience which, once they have this pretending to champion the people’s frustrations at lockdown and facemasks their real agenda will surface. Less and less will be discussed about the pandemic and the draconian rules which accompany it, and more about the presence of black people, Muslims, anti-LGBT and various forms of xenophobia will come to the fore. It would be hoped, by the far-right, people will forget the real reason they are attending the meetings, lockdown and opposition to it, and will be sucked into this diatribe of hate filled trash spewed out of the mouths of these modern-day Hitlers. Do not be sucked in by it. 

So, how can these people claim to show allegiance to the tricolour? Their politics, if that be what they are, are an antithesis to what the flag stands for. Let us just remind ourselves what the Irish flag stands for. It represents the two major traditions on the island of Ireland, the green and the orange, some say Catholic green and orange Protestantism, I will just say green and orange leaving religious connotations out of it. The white separating these two traditions represents peace, not hate as the far-right stand for, peace between the Orange and Green, yet everything the ACI and kindred organisations spout is about hatred, hatred for ethnic groups, hatred for religious minorities, hatred for Gay and lesbian people, in fact hatred for anybody who does not fit their description of humanity.

For the record the Irish Tricolour was a gift from revolutionary France in 1848. It is based on the French Tricolour (Tricolore in French) which when formally adopted in 1794 symbolised the values of the French Revolution, liberty, equality, brotherhood, democracy, and secularism. The third French Revolution of 1848, forming the second republic, was one of a series of uprisings across Europe as 1848 became known as the “year of revolutions”. We even had a mini rising in Ireland, amid terrible hunger at that time, which is sometimes referred to as; “The Battle of Widow McCormack’s Cabbage Patch” in County Tipperary, carried out by the Young Irelanders. 

The Irish flag was first flown in Waterford in 1848 and was put together by the widows and daughters of the United Irishmen. It was brought to Ireland by Thomas Francis Meagher (Tomas Proinseas Meachair) from the revolutionaries in France, a connection dating back to the United Irish Movement in the 1790s. How can the far-right who preach only hatred claim an allegiance to a flag which symbolises the absolute opposite? 

The presence of the tricolour on demonstrations, often resulting in violence, may be to give the false impression of a republican presence. This is not the case, do not be fooled, it is designed to do just that creating an impression of a presence which is not there. The five tenets of Irish Republicanism; nationalism [liberation], secularism, socialism, non-sectarianism and separatism are not present in the minds of these fascist interlopers. Not once have I heard in the narrative of these far-right organisations, any reference to the British presence in the six counties. 

At a time commemorating forty years since the republican hunger strikes we hear not an utterance from these far-right groups remembering the ten republican hunger strikers. That is because they are not republican, they have nothing in common with Irish Republicanism and the presence of the tricolour at their demonstrations, apart from being an insult, is a ruse to con the gullible.

Caoimhin O’Muraile is a Dublin based Marxist. 

33 comments:

  1. The tricolour has been besmirched not just by these far right groups but also by the squalid and often sectarian "armed struggle" waged by "Republicans" in Northern Ireland and by its use to mark out territory.

    It would be naive in the extreme to ignore extreme right, fascist currents in nationalist/republican history eg. Blueshirts, nationalist Ireland's support for Franco in the Spanish Civil War; the antisemitic prejudices of Arthur Griffiths and the Pro-Life Amendment Campaign and successor groups from the 1980s onwards.

    As John Hume said, or more accurately his father said "you cannot eat a flag."

    ReplyDelete
  2. We're lucky the far right didn't pay homage to the Hunger Strikers, the last thing we need is them appropriating their memory or Republicanism in general.

    The far right have always been a problem in Ireland, they raise their ugly head any time there is a problem in society, like a recession or a pandemic.

    We shouldn't forget that many more left for Spain to fight for Franco than those, including socialists from the Shankill and other unionist areas who left to fight for the Republic.

    Bigotry and hatred are innate in the right. The founders of modern Republicanism were way ahead of their time with LGBT rights, women's rights, inclusivity, socialism, language rights, equality and human rights in general.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. . "The founders of modern Republicanism were way ahead of their time with LGBT rights, women's rights, inclusivity, socialism, language rights, equality and human rights in general"

      Does that apply to the Kingsmill massacre perpetrators? Did nationalists not disavow Casement's homosexuality. Did the Provos not move their sex abusers away from the claws of justice? Did Maria Cahill find the Republican movement "inclusive"?

      Delete
    2. Plus Republicans deprived 1,400 plus people of the most basic human right of all - the right to life.

      Delete
    3. Barry, the founders of modern Republicanism were the leaders of the 1916 Rising as opposed to the first Irish Republicans who were the United Irishmen. Try to brush up on your understanding of terminology.

      There have been atrocities and injustices since day one. Likewise with any other social or political movement.

      I am on record on the Quill calling out Kingsmills as a war crime and the appalling treatment of Maria Cahill. The stigma around homosexuality was wrong, the criminalisation and hatred of LGBT people was a societal problem and an appalling injustice but I was referring to the enthusiastic inclusion of key LGBT figures like Casement and Margaret Skinnider and others in the Rising, Pearse's, Connolly's and Michael Collins' inclusion of women. I am talking of Connolly's socialism. Pearse's fervent work on the Irish language. The "founders of modern republicanism", Barry.

      Any conflict involves death, all involve war crimes, torture and abuse of human rights but I find your pontificating a little baffling coming from someone who fervently supports the state of Israel.

      Delete
  3. Thanks for this piece Caoimhin.
    I tend not to be a flag flyer.
    My wife would put out the Stars and Stripes on Thanksgiving Day as she is American.
    Other than that I can only remember flying the Palestinian flag, not as an assertion of Palestinian nationalism but in opposition to Israeli attacks on Palestinians.
    And the black flag for Joe O'Connor and Pat McGeown.
    Fighting over the tricolour reminds me of the two bald men fighting over a comb.
    Nationalism works even less comfortably for me these days than it did previously. Whether that's a good or bad thing is, I guess, a moot point.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Personally I would be a flyer of the Red Flag and/or the Plough and the Stars, Starry Lough for Irish socialism.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Unknown - can you sign this with some handle to differentiate you from any other Unknowns commenting?

      Delete
    2. I recall sectarian massacres such as the Darkley atrocity carried by supposed bearers of the Starry Plough but who styled themselves as the "Catholic Reaction Force".

      Delete
  5. Hi A.M. I enjoy reading your writings and those of your contributors. As a notional unionist I disagree with a lot of what is said, but I believe you will allow me that. There are a lot on inconsistencies in all our thoughts I am sure, but thankfully we are doing most of our squabbling now in the virtual world where pain is less grievous. I have been a reader on your various platforms, on and off, for many years and I respect you as an individual who has endured a lot for his beliefs and come a long way in his life's journey. We are all a product of our experiences, and I thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences online, as our paths would have been unlikely to cross otherwise. Here's hoping for a future whence all can be equally valued, loved and cherished, and the wounds that we have all caused, can be healed.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Boy in the Bubble - thanks for your comment. I am always interested in how unionists view what is written here while never expecting them to agree with much of it. Unionists and loyalists are always free to write here and some do.

      Delete
    2. Another token hun about the place? What's the place coming too? Another Violet-Anne Wynne The Token? LOL!

      Delete
  6. Also Republicans were not above playing the race card to advance the cause of Irish independence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/28/ireland-1921-how-republicans-used-their-whiteness-to-win-freedom

    ReplyDelete
  7. Simon

    "I find your pontificating a little baffling coming from someone who fervently supports the state of Israel"

    I support the existence of the State of Israel alongside an independent state of Palestine. I DO NOT support the Occupation or the expansionist agenda of Likud. I do not "support" any side just peace and justice based on a two-state solution.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Barry, I would go further than your polite description of your stance on Israel. You are a cheerleader here on the Quill for the terrorist state. You have defended them anytime you think you can get away with it.

      Most recently, this defence has been your description of news stories of the witholding of vaccines to the Palestinians as "fake news" and "anti-semitic" despite the story being reported by the BBC, the United Nations, the Guardian newspaper, amongst others.

      Do you not recognise your hypocrisy in listing individual atrocites and death tolls under a discussion about the Irish national flag? Why, anytime you mention support for Israel we could mention 2,205 Palestinians who died in the more recent 2014 war on the Gaza Strip or the release of white phosphorous on schools. We could use the same tricks you employ but we tend to stick to being relevant.

      Delete
    2. this is where Barry's stand gets very wobbly. The IRA did many terrible things but they are dwarfed by Israeli atrocities.

      Delete
    3. Barry,

      You quoted me and replied - " "this defence has been your description of news stories of the witholding of vaccines to the Palestinians as "fake news" and "anti-semitic""

      I said no such thing here or anywhere else. Although it is worth mentioning in passing that the Palestinian Authority has, under the Oslo accords, responsibility for health in the West Bank."

      The United Nations has issued a statement saying it is Israel's responsibility to provide equitable access to covid 19 vaccines for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

      It is your parroting of the Israeli govrnment position without bothering to fact check it together with your entire commemtary to date on Israel which demonstrates your support. Saying you support a terrorist state isn't libellous. I am not saying you support Israel's terrorism, merely that you support Israel and also that Israel is a terrorist state. Try to read the nuance.

      On the post "Sinn Féin's Anti-Semitism Comes At No Political Cost" post on this very website on 26/12/20 amongst other things you wrote-

      "Having read the article, I can see that the tweets from SF deputies about Israel forming ISIS; denying Covid-19 vaccines to the population of the West Bank and 9/11 conspiracy theories very much come within the range of antizionist antisemitism."

      and...

      " " Anti-Israelism, as it is termed by Rabbi Julia Neuberger, is not, I grant, full-on antisemitism as that of Nazi vintage. But the accusations made against it; the 9/11 and ISIS nonsense, the harvesting of organs and denial of Covid-19 vaccines to the West Bank, power of the Zionist/Israel lobby hark back to centuries-old anti-Jewish themes such as the 'blood libel' (Jews killing Christian children); Jews being simultaneously behind communism and capitalism (as made explicit in the Hamas Charter) and the power of the Rothschild banking family."

      So, were they your commemts about the stories of withheld vaccinations being antisemitic? Or are you still going to deny making them?

      Delete
  8. Simon

    "this defence has been your description of news stories of the witholding of vaccines to the Palestinians as "fake news" and "anti-semitic""

    I said no such thing here or anywhere else. Although it is worth mentioning in passing that the Palestinian Authority has, under the Oslo accords, responsibility for health in the West Bank.

    "You are a cheerleader here on the Quill for the terrorist state. You have defended them anytime you think you can get away with it."

    That remark borders on the defamatory. I have never justified killings of Palestinians on the Gaza Strip or the use of phosphorous bombs. Although it is also worth mentioning that Hamas bears some degree of responsibility for civilian deaths through provoking Israeli response and inevitable overreaction by its rocket attacks on Israeli territory.

    I actually agree that Israeli behaviour has been over-indulged by the West and I do welcome the ICC's investigation into alleged Israeli (and Hamas) war crimes.

    Simon, you have heard of the aphorism that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. It is not a rhetorical device that I am found of using but I wonder how many other states you designate as "terrorist". China, Syria and practically all of the MENA region (excepting Tunisia, Iraqi Kurdistan and Rojava) are examples that come to mind.

    " The IRA did many terrible things but they are dwarfed by Israeli atrocities."

    That comparison is like saying that ETA did terrible things but they are dwarfed by Saudi atrocities. The IRA is to be judged by its actions; its claims to legitimacy and the ultimate outcome of its campaign (did it advance its goals or improve the conditions of the people it purportedly claim to be fighting on behalf.

    To repeat, I do not support Israel or the Palestinians in the manner of supporting a football team or of "my country right or wrong". I support the principles of a "life raft" state for Jews within pre-1967 boundaries) alongside a fully independent state for Palestinian Arabs in historic Palestine. I do not give blank cheques for Israeli governments or for any Palestinian leadership.

    If people on this site wish to misconstrue this as cheerleading for the Israeli state of defence of "Israeli atrocities" out of reflexive antizionism or antiIsraelism then that is their problem not mine.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If defenders of the Saudi state were criticising ETA for atrocities it would make you think of the hypocrisy would it not? You would find t hard to take them seriously.
      People do not support a life raft state where the survivors throw men, women and children into the sea to drown.
      If they needed a state they could have demanded one in Germany rather than steal it from the Palestinians.
      There are no anti-Semites on this site. We do have a few pro-Zionists, which many people see as being on a par with being pro-Nazi and not out of anti-Semitic sentiment.

      Delete
    2. Barry, your pieces and comments on the Quill show strong support for Israel. You must see that? You wrote the stuff.

      Your definition of anti-semitism is so wide it takes away from the gravity of actual anti-semitism. By having such a wide net, actual anti-semitism will pass unnoticed and unremarked.

      Saying vaccines have been withheld is a lie and antisemitic in your book. Pointing out that you said that you think saying vaccines being withheld is antisemitic is, in turn, a lie and antisemitic. Saying you support Israel is a lie and antisemitic.

      Other points you make about antisemitism are valid but they're drowned out by the claims of everything else under the sun being antisemetic.

      Be mindful of the harm you are doing by casting such a wide definition which weakens the fight against actual antisemitism.

      Delete
  9. AM

    "If they needed a state they could have demanded one in Germany rather than steal it from the Palestinians".

    Utterly unrealistic to expect a restorative state for Jews to have been set up in any part of Europe after 1945.

    There were three options open to Jews in Europe in the first part of the 20th century; assimilation in their country of residence, being part of a workers' revolution or the Zionist project of emigration to Palestine in successive Aliyahs (land was purchased there not stolen). All failed to prevent the extermination camps. I fail to see what constituency there would have been among surviving Jews in the Displaced Persons camps for staying in Europe and who would have been able to persuade them; Jews who did venture back to countries Poland and Slovakia found their properties occupied by locals and fresh waves of antisemitism behind the Iron Curtain under the guise of "antizionism").

    There would likely have been no Palestinian dispossession in the period of the Naqba had the Palestinian leadership agreed to the UN Partition Plan in 1947 and had not Israel's Arab neighbours invaded it on becoming independent in 1948.

    Comparisons between Zionism and Nazism were features of Soviet era and of Islamist antizionism and is a common refrain of the contemporary far left (including Corbynism). Zionism is at its base a movement for the self-determination of the Jewish people. It is fine to oppose it on grounds of opposition to any nationalist movement. So to be consistent oppose all movements for national self-determination; how would people on this site feel if I was to state that Irish nationalism/republicanism was on a par with pro-Nazi; they would rightfully say to compare it with a exterminationist, racist ideology is preposterous. I say the same about Zionist-Nazi comparisons.

    I have made these points many time on this site. I stand by them and will not have being accused of defending Israeli atrocities because
    I hold them. Such accusations are malicious lies; the stuff of so much contemporary antizionism.

    To return to the subject of the thread. The tricolour is the flag of a mature democracy and the property of all its citizens. It should not be hijacked by extremists of any hue.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Barry - the moral power the Jewish people had post-Holocaust would would easily have permitted a state to be set up in Germany which would easily have been seen as reparations. What objections could Germany have had?

    They had no right to steal someone else's land and sustain the theft through war crime, apartheid, crimes against humanity, torture, and occupation.

    Many Jews had little interest in being herded off to Palestine. It was not their natural habitat. Europe was. Many of them returned to the European cities they previously fled from, Amsterdam being the most prominent.

    Back to your old nonsense of trying to label comparisons between the evils of Nazism and the evils of Zionism as anti-Semitism - how many times have you saw that laughed out of the debate?

    Zionism and Nazism on different scales are supremacist, racist ideologies that perpetrate massacres of children, Lebensraum, illegal occupation, torture, war crimes, crimes against humanity. That seems to make for a large number of points of comparison.

    Zionism is an expansionist land grabbing project. There is no more right to a Jewish homeland than there is a right to a Catholic homeland or a Muslim homeland, or a Hindu homeland. We can and should have every sympathy with the Jewish victims of the second largest crime of World War 2, after the War of Extermination in the East, but that sympathy can never extend to approving barbarism that treats the Palestinians worse than the Nazis treated the Jews in pre-1938 Germany.

    Gerry Adams claims accusations that he was in the IRA are malicious lies but no serious people pay him any heed. Much the same when you claim it is a malicious lie to compare the Nazis and Zionists.

    ReplyDelete
  11. AM

    We can trade differences of opinions about Nazi-Zionist comparisons or about the circumstances of the creation of the State of Israel ad infinitum. There will never be agreement between us. I accept that.


    My issue is that in the course of this thread is that Simon has made unsubstantiated claims (or more accurately slurs) about me being a cheerleader for Israeli crimes against the Palestinians; claims which unfortunately (and I sincerely hope I am wrong) you seem to tacitly endorse. These are claims which I reject in their entirety and say more about their originator in this thread (and by other commenters in a similar vein) than about me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Barry - Simon has made his position very clear and I agree with it. He has not slurred you. That is a recurring tactic on your behalf to deflect criticism of your support for the state of Israel which is culpable for serious war crimes. Israel is a terrorist state. You support the terrorist state but try to distance yourself from its terror and seek to deflect criticism of its terror by throwing around the anti-Semite slur.
      No one need feel bound by the heavily politicised and skewed IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, the primary purpose of which is to suppress criticism of the terror state. When people draw comparisons between atrocities of the Israeli state and those of the Nazi state the IHRA tries to censor that opinion through the label of antisemitism. When people call into question the existence of the terror state of Israel the IHRA is back at its gagging exercise.
      It is ethically proper for people to speak out against Israeli atrocity and Nazi atrocity and any other atrocity inflicted on human beings by war criminals of whatever hue.
      I have never yet heard you speak out against Israeli atrocity with the seem degree of harshness that you speak out against say the Omagh bomb.
      The Omagh bomb was a disgraceful episode that should once and for all have consigned the physical force tradition to oblivion. But it does not hold a candle to what the terror state of Israel has inflicted on the innocent of Palestine. And until you make that clear in unequivocal language, the claims against you will always say more about you than about anyone else.

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    2. Barry, "My issue is that in the course of this thread is that Simon has made unsubstantiated claims (or more accurately slurs)"

      I have explained that your writings on the Quill show clear support for Israel. Israel is a terrorist state, in that it employs state terrorism; targetting of civilians, use of white phosphorous as a weapon, targetting medics, schools, journalists, air strikes in densely populated areas. I am not saying you support these methods.

      Let me give an analogy. Sinn Fein support the PSNI. The PSNI have arrested journalists, a mourning victim at a memorial for a loyalist atrocity, have withheld documents illegally from investigations by other state agencies, policed BLM protest differently than a loyalist one, I could go on. Sinn Fein don't support these actions yet support the police. It is akin to your support for Israel. No-one is saying you are an ardent supporter of state terrorism.

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  12. Simon

    What you said in this thread originally was that I had dismissed reports that Israel was denying vaccines to the Palestinians in the West Bank as "antisemitic" and "fake news". I take it you accept that I had said no such thing and I am glad that you are not saying that I am a supporter of any sort of state terrorism.


    "I have explained that your writings on the Quill show clear support for Israel"

    In so far as my writings (as opposed to my comments) on TPQ have discussed Israel, it has been in relation to my articles on Antisemitism and the British Labour Party. I have yet to write an article on Israel/Palestine.

    I support the existence of the State of Israel behind the Green Line. That does not amount to support for the Occupation, settlements and repression no more than my acceptance of the democratic legitimacy of Britain, US, France and other Western democracies amounts to support for extraordinary rendition, waterboarding and other iniquitous aspects of the War on Terror.

    I also support the creation of an independent state of Palestine which does not amount to support for Hamas or the PFLP. I defy anyone to point to an example on this site of me describing criticism of Israeli actions, atrocities call them what you like on the West Bank and Gaza as antisemitic. For surprise, surprise, nor does the IHRA definition which as a non-binding document uses phrases as "might be" or "possibly" when citing examples of when criticism of Israel may be seen as antisemitic.
    I am frankly getting tired

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  13. Barry

    I quoted you twice above saying you believe the stories about Israel withholding vaccines from the Palestinians was false and antisemitic.

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  14. Simon

    And once again, I reiterate that I said no such thing regardless of the veracity of the story.

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    1. Barry, your denials are getting tiresome. Did you write the following on the Quill or was it a different Barry Gilheany?

      On the post "Sinn Féin's Anti-Semitism Comes At No Political Cost" post on this very website on 26/12/20 amongst other things you wrote-

      "Having read the article, I can see that the tweets from SF deputies about Israel forming ISIS; denying Covid-19 vaccines to the population of the West Bank and 9/11 conspiracy theories very much come within the range of antizionist antisemitism."

      and...

      " " Anti-Israelism, as it is termed by Rabbi Julia Neuberger, is not, I grant, full-on antisemitism as that of Nazi vintage. But the accusations made against it; the 9/11 and ISIS nonsense, the harvesting of organs and denial of Covid-19 vaccines to the West Bank, power of the Zionist/Israel lobby hark back to centuries-old anti-Jewish themes such as the 'blood libel' (Jews killing Christian children); Jews being simultaneously behind communism and capitalism (as made explicit in the Hamas Charter) and the power of the Rothschild banking family." ????

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  15. Simon

    Ok so I made reference to it. I am aware of this controversy; it is the job the Palestinian Authority as the body responsible for health care in the West Bank under the Oslo Accords to source vaccines or so Israel claims. Israel has now began vaccinating West Bank Palestinians who work in Israel

    https_jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjewishnews.timesofisrael.com%

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  16. Barry,

    Your statement that the withholding of vaccines is antusemitic and untrue points at your support for Israel. Your denials over 3 days that you said this also points to your support. Why else would you hide the fact?

    Your parroting of Israel's position on the vaccine being under the Oslo agreement also points to your bias. There are numerous examples throughout your contributions to the Quill. You can't call factual things anti-semitic just because they harm Israel's image.

    The Oslo Accord has practically been torn up by Israel. It was meant to deliver for both sides. Do you think the badly under-resourced Palestinian health care system is an outworking of Oslo or due to the inhumane blockade by Israel? The UN statememt I refer to below states "We are particularly concerned about the deteriorating health situation in Gaza, which suffers from a 13-year-old blockade, serious water and electricity shortages, and endemic poverty and unemployment". Oslo Accord again Barry? It's been violated repeatedly.

    The UN have said that "as the occupying power, Israel is required under the Fourth Geneva Convention, “to the fullest extent of the means available to it”, to maintain health services in the occupied territory. Article 56 requires Israel to adopt and apply “the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics” in cooperation with national and local authorities."

    The UN have released a starement in which their experts have said Israel is responsible for the covid vaccinations in Palestine. "some Israeli commentators have justified the differential treatment on the grounds that the 1995 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement, an integral part of the Oslo Accords, provides that the Palestinian Authority would assume the responsibility for health care in the Palestinian territory, including for vaccinations. The experts said that the Oslo Accords must be interpreted and applied consistent with international law, and cannot derogate from its broad protections. The ultimate responsibility for health services remains with the occupying power until the occupation has fully and finally ended".

    Finally Barry, if anyone is interested they can read your contribitutions to judge whether you support Israel or not. I am not going to waste my time arguing with you. Your latest denial session lasted over 3 days only for you to admit the truth in the end.

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  17. Caoimhin O’Muraile, Apologies for the way the comments on your piece took on a life of their own. These comments were a distraction from your worthwhile piece.

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  18. Simon

    I accept your arguments on the vaccinations. But I take it you are not in agreement with the rest of the comments made by that representative of that repository of truth and accountability - Sinn Fein.

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