Caoimhin O’Muraile ✒ A United Ireland Is A Right, Not An Aspiration, An Entitlement. But Problems Will Exist.

(The Sectarian Groups Both Orange and Green)

For fifty years and more the Roman Catholic community in the six counties were disenfranchised, discriminated against in employment, housing, health and living standards, rights and privileges enjoyed by and bestowed upon the Protestant community by the unionist administration. 

It must be pointed out that these privileges did not extend so far as giving working-class Protestants the vote in local elections, they were living under a false illusion. To protect this mirage a form of ethnic cleansing occurred on more than one occasion, culminating with the burning of Catholic homes in 1969 by loyalist mobs backed up by the B. Specials of the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary), the so-called police force! The Unionist (Protestant) Government, single party para-fascist administration in Stormont, propped up by the British Government in Westminster and later armed forces on the streets presided over these pogroms. Many Catholic families fled to the south of Ireland in a bid to survive.

The British Government were in overall charge of this situation and without this prop it is unlikely the unionist regime could have survived and certainly could not allow these fire-bombings of Catholic homes to continue. Therefore, when the organisation styling itself “The Provisional IRA” at its early meetings fingered the problem which had to be removed, the British presence, the prop supporting this rotten gang, they set about achieving just that removal. 

Throughout the seventies PIRA, later joined by the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) attacked British forces, RUC personnel, Prison Officers and politicians alike. The INLA in 1979 blew right-wing British politician, and confidant of Thatcher, Airey Neave to bits in the House of Commons carpark. This operation, arguably the most audacious attack of the conflict, hitting in a place where MPs were entitled to consider safe certainly put the INLA on the map as a force to be reckoned with! 

Despite all their successes both republican military forces failed to remove the British presence but did, arguably, force them into something they said they would never do, talk to what the British termed “terrorists”. No doubt the British would argue that them talking to Sinn Fein, the IRAs political voice at the time, had nothing to do with the armed campaign waged by the IRA. Could they be right? Or could they be trying to save face? That is perhaps something only the IRA and the British can answer. 

In 1998 the much-venerated Good Friday Agreement was signed and the IRA – the word Provisional being dropped back in 1990 – began a process called decommissioning, foolishly in my view but that is only an opinion, and they were later joined in this by the INLA, despite this organisation’s political voice, the Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP), not being signatories or supporters of the GFA.

Within the agreement Irish unification is accepted as a legitimate aspiration by both the British and Unionist sides for the first time ever. Unification is not an aspiration, a favour meted out by those who caused the problems in the first place, the unification of Ireland – as any other natural country partitioned by another – is a right, a right to all the people on the island irrespective of religious denomination. Again, that is an opinion probably not shared by everybody.

Most of the aforementioned Protestant privileges alluded to above have now been eroded or no longer exist. However, one institution still exists which could be described as ethnocentric at best. That is the Orange Order, sworn to uphold the Ascendancy and the Protestant religion. This organisation still has rules forbidding membership to Roman Catholics into their ranks and any Protestant married to a Catholic is also banned from membership. It is sworn to defend the religious privileges conferred on Protestants by King William III, during the misleadingly termed Glorious Revolution 1688-1691, and after the defeat of the Catholic King James II by William (the third) of Orange. 

In a united Ireland built on equality, freedom of religion and harmony can such a rule be allowed, clearly discriminatory against Roman Catholics? In the event of unification would the Orange Order revise their rule book, given some of its members have said such sectarian comments as; “the only good Taig (derogatory term for Catholic) is a dead one?” Highly unlikely as the organisation was formed to be sectarian! Many of the orders members are Unionist politicians, which beggars the question how can these people holding office in a sectarian organisation hold governmental positions? They, the Orange Order, and kindred organisations in their present form could be described as the six-county equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan in the southern USA, except they do not discriminate on skin colour (the Order does have non-white members in their loges throughout the globe, the main criteria being members must be Protestant), and discriminates on the grounds of religious denomination! In the event of a united Ireland any attempt to change by decree the Orange Orders rule book would no doubt be met with resistance. The age old, almost obsolete, accusation of “Rome Rule” dictating the freedoms of the brethren will probably be resurrected! 

So, how will this problem be overcome? Many may say it is a minor detail which will go away, to these I suggest they are kidding themselves. It certainly sounds trivial, granted, and perhaps anywhere else in the world it would be but in the six-counties the Orange Order take their “rights” and “freedoms” as they see them, very seriously indeed.

For over a century this object, the question of the unionists and loyalists, has been kicked down the road. The idea the unionist/loyalist community will come into the fold once the British have gone may not be that simple, I for one wish it would be. Early in the twentieth century with the formation of the Irish Volunteers the British Government reacted by issuing a ban on the importation of arms into Ireland. This ban was applicable to the Irish Volunteers and no such restrictions were placed on the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). This was a clear indication that there was a law for the Orange tradition and another for the Green. This was re-emphasised in April 1914 when a major gun-running operation by the UVF, organised by Major Fred Crawford and Captain Wilfrid Spender, went ahead unmolested by the so-called British authorities. Between Friday 24th April and Saturday 25th April 1914 landings of weaponry destined for the UVF landed at Larne, Donaghadee and Bangor under the nose of the British authorities. Obviously, the ban on arms only applied to the Irish Volunteers who, on 26th July 1914 at Howth carried out their own importation of arms but without the apparent impunity enjoyed by the UVF. 

Padraig Pearse ironically, and perhaps naively, wrote at the time: 

Personally I think the Orangeman with a rifle a much less ridiculous figure than the Nationalist without a rifle … in the present circumstances accursed be the soul of any Nationalist who would dream of firing a shot or draw a sword against the Ulster Volunteers (1916: The Easter Rising by Tim Pat Coogan P.46).
 
What did Pearse think the UVF were going to do with their weapons? They certainly were not going duck shooting on the Lagan that was for sure. It was perhaps, though no doubt well meaning, as naïve at the time as expecting the Orange Order, and kindred organisations, today to change their rule books in the event of unification! The question is, and if the proclamation of 1916 means anything about “all the children” being treat equally, what about this clearly unequal organisation, the Orange Order? 

I do not have the answers, and do not profess to have. As a non-religious person looking objectively at the problem which will not go away, I suspect, how do we solve it? For centuries the Green tradition has reached out the hand of friendship to our Orange counterparts, and we are doing so again and make no apologies for that. The point I am trying to make is will the Orange tradition, as represented on our national flag, the tricolour, replicate this goodwill and harmony by amending the rule book forbidding Catholics from Orange Order and kindred organisations membership? If they would do this it most certainly would be a very progressive move on the part of the Orangemen. This is not to suggest any Catholic would wish to join but to have the opportunity available, should they opt to, would be a sign of ending sectarianism.

Another ethnocentric and sectarian organisation is the Royal Black Institution, often seen as a progression of the Orange Order though a separate institution. The RBI claim their basis is the promotion of the Protestant Reformation, though this is contested by those who claim their rituals are not biblical at all. Roman Catholics or those Protestants married to a Catholic are not considered suitable candidates for membership of the RBI, in fact there is a ban on such persons becoming members. The Royal Black Institution are also seen as the senior of the loyal orders referring to each other as “Sir Knight” whereas the Orange Order refer to each other as “Brother”. 

Either way this organisation in a united Ireland based on equality and non-sectarianism, non-discrimination surely does not fit in to the mould of equality. All members of the RBI must be, or have previously been members of an Orange Lodge and must have progressed through all the degrees of the Orange Order first. The candidate must have shown good character while undergoing this progression if he wishes to join this “elite” loyal organisation which is more common to the masons than perhaps the Orange Order. The Royal Black Institution is also known as the “Royal Black Preceptory.” The Preceptory is a designation borrowed from the masonic Knights Templar, who fought in the crusades against the Muslims, a campaign ironically ordered by Pope Urban II. The Black Order mimics the Royal ritual of knighting members and calling them “Sir Knight” which does not mean they have been knighted by the British Monarch - they are what could be described as bogus knights. The RBI has a lower tolerance for rowdiness than does the Orange Order and appearance on the Institutions parades must be impeccable. They often look down on their lower brethren of the Orange marches, a kind of masonic snobbery, but one thing both have in common; they are both anti-Catholic.

Not to sound or be sectarian myself in this perception of secret masonic organisations whose practices are not conducive to the kind of non-sectarian Ireland republicans I wish to see, I must mention a Catholic organisation who practice the same, but in reverse. The Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH), founded in New York City in 1836 is a Catholic, equally sectarian organisation. Members must be male, Catholic and either born in Ireland or be of Irish descent. By definition Protestants are not welcome and, in much the same way as the Orange Order and Royal Black Institution operate against Catholics, Protestants, Irish or not, cannot be considered for membership of the AOH. 

In an Ireland encompassing “Catholic Protestant and dissenter” how can Irish Protestants be expected to support such an entity while the sectarian AOH continue along this path. The religious sectarian position and rules of the AOH gives the far-right of the loyalist community just the ammunition they need to tell their brethren, wrongly; look we, as Protestants, are not welcome here in this united Ireland.

Early in the twentieth century the AOH was strongly opposed to the secular non-sectarian ideologies of the Irish republican Brotherhood (IRB). The revolutionary IRB was non-sectarian and one of its more famous members, a Cork Protestant called Sam Maguire – who gave his name to the Gaelic All Ireland Football trophy – was the man who introduced and signed up Michael Collins to the IRB. The IRB had no time for the AOH who were seen as an impediment to Irish progress and were as divisive as the Orang Order and RBI. The AOH could, with certain justification, be described as a Green version of the Orange Order and RBI! They are equally sectarian as the former and also an antithesis to an Ireland of equality and non-sectarianism. Ironically the AOH on 13th June 1916 at a convention in Dublin chaired by Joe Devlin, the organisation approved the proposed partition of Ireland, in the event of the Home Rule Bill being enacted by 475 votes to 265. This vote well predated the Government of Ireland Act 1920 when partition was again to be the British answer in Ireland! 

Today the AOH in the six counties remains a visible but marginal part of the Catholic community which suggests their membership may be in decline. Could many of the AOH be aligned with the emerging political far-right in Ireland today? The right-wing of the Catholic church, the successors to those who supported Franco in the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) who marched off to fight under the Blue Shirt leader, Eoin O’ Duffy with the blessing of many Bishops, believing they were fighting for the Catholic church against socialism! The Orange Order, Royal Black institution hate with a vigour the Roman Catholic faith, the AOH, in much the same way detest the reformed Protestant religion.

Membership of the Orange Order and, it must be presumed, the RBI has been in decline for a number of years. Membership once provided advantages within the Protestant governed statelet but this is no longer applicable. Since the fall of the unionist government in 1973 the “Protestant land for a Protestant people” no longer applies in the same way. Membership of the Order in the six counties is around the 34,000 mark, its lowest ever in my understanding. With the once sacred Protestant Ascendancy now toppled the main object of the order appears to be preventing Irish unification and celebrating the twelfth of July. Perhaps we should all, Catholic, Protestant and atheist alike, that is the sane majority of us, should be grateful the memberships of such sectarian groups are in decline.

Today’s Ireland has changed greatly since these organisations came into being. In the modern Ireland there are many different ethnic and racial groups who fit neither the Catholic or Protestant definition or narrative. So, would Muslims, Jews, Hindus and any other minority cultures and religions be welcome in either the Orange Order, the RBI or the AOH? Highly unlikely I would suggest, so how can these people feel equal when organisations exist, legally, which prohibit their participation? This is not the same as saying people of colour are not welcome, providing they fit the correct religious criteria [in the case of the AOH Irish or Irish descent], but sectarianism is in itself a form of racism and should be stamped out.

The question is, do any of these groups have a place in a modern united Ireland? For example, would a Muslim be welcome in the AOH? Or would, on the other hand, a Hindu be welcome in the Orange Order? Could a Jewish person join the AOH? Doubtful on all counts. These organisations certainly would not be welcome in a socialist republic, but what about a non-socialist Ireland which, alas, looks the most likely? How can organisations be accommodated who hold such divisive rules? I do not have the answers, apart from sounding dictatorial myself, so I will leave this conundrum for the reader to answer!! 

Caoimhin O’Muraile is a Dublin based Marxist and author. 

A United Ireland Is A Right

Caoimhin O’Muraile ✒ A United Ireland Is A Right, Not An Aspiration, An Entitlement. But Problems Will Exist.

(The Sectarian Groups Both Orange and Green)

For fifty years and more the Roman Catholic community in the six counties were disenfranchised, discriminated against in employment, housing, health and living standards, rights and privileges enjoyed by and bestowed upon the Protestant community by the unionist administration. 

It must be pointed out that these privileges did not extend so far as giving working-class Protestants the vote in local elections, they were living under a false illusion. To protect this mirage a form of ethnic cleansing occurred on more than one occasion, culminating with the burning of Catholic homes in 1969 by loyalist mobs backed up by the B. Specials of the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary), the so-called police force! The Unionist (Protestant) Government, single party para-fascist administration in Stormont, propped up by the British Government in Westminster and later armed forces on the streets presided over these pogroms. Many Catholic families fled to the south of Ireland in a bid to survive.

The British Government were in overall charge of this situation and without this prop it is unlikely the unionist regime could have survived and certainly could not allow these fire-bombings of Catholic homes to continue. Therefore, when the organisation styling itself “The Provisional IRA” at its early meetings fingered the problem which had to be removed, the British presence, the prop supporting this rotten gang, they set about achieving just that removal. 

Throughout the seventies PIRA, later joined by the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA) attacked British forces, RUC personnel, Prison Officers and politicians alike. The INLA in 1979 blew right-wing British politician, and confidant of Thatcher, Airey Neave to bits in the House of Commons carpark. This operation, arguably the most audacious attack of the conflict, hitting in a place where MPs were entitled to consider safe certainly put the INLA on the map as a force to be reckoned with! 

Despite all their successes both republican military forces failed to remove the British presence but did, arguably, force them into something they said they would never do, talk to what the British termed “terrorists”. No doubt the British would argue that them talking to Sinn Fein, the IRAs political voice at the time, had nothing to do with the armed campaign waged by the IRA. Could they be right? Or could they be trying to save face? That is perhaps something only the IRA and the British can answer. 

In 1998 the much-venerated Good Friday Agreement was signed and the IRA – the word Provisional being dropped back in 1990 – began a process called decommissioning, foolishly in my view but that is only an opinion, and they were later joined in this by the INLA, despite this organisation’s political voice, the Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP), not being signatories or supporters of the GFA.

Within the agreement Irish unification is accepted as a legitimate aspiration by both the British and Unionist sides for the first time ever. Unification is not an aspiration, a favour meted out by those who caused the problems in the first place, the unification of Ireland – as any other natural country partitioned by another – is a right, a right to all the people on the island irrespective of religious denomination. Again, that is an opinion probably not shared by everybody.

Most of the aforementioned Protestant privileges alluded to above have now been eroded or no longer exist. However, one institution still exists which could be described as ethnocentric at best. That is the Orange Order, sworn to uphold the Ascendancy and the Protestant religion. This organisation still has rules forbidding membership to Roman Catholics into their ranks and any Protestant married to a Catholic is also banned from membership. It is sworn to defend the religious privileges conferred on Protestants by King William III, during the misleadingly termed Glorious Revolution 1688-1691, and after the defeat of the Catholic King James II by William (the third) of Orange. 

In a united Ireland built on equality, freedom of religion and harmony can such a rule be allowed, clearly discriminatory against Roman Catholics? In the event of unification would the Orange Order revise their rule book, given some of its members have said such sectarian comments as; “the only good Taig (derogatory term for Catholic) is a dead one?” Highly unlikely as the organisation was formed to be sectarian! Many of the orders members are Unionist politicians, which beggars the question how can these people holding office in a sectarian organisation hold governmental positions? They, the Orange Order, and kindred organisations in their present form could be described as the six-county equivalent of the Ku Klux Klan in the southern USA, except they do not discriminate on skin colour (the Order does have non-white members in their loges throughout the globe, the main criteria being members must be Protestant), and discriminates on the grounds of religious denomination! In the event of a united Ireland any attempt to change by decree the Orange Orders rule book would no doubt be met with resistance. The age old, almost obsolete, accusation of “Rome Rule” dictating the freedoms of the brethren will probably be resurrected! 

So, how will this problem be overcome? Many may say it is a minor detail which will go away, to these I suggest they are kidding themselves. It certainly sounds trivial, granted, and perhaps anywhere else in the world it would be but in the six-counties the Orange Order take their “rights” and “freedoms” as they see them, very seriously indeed.

For over a century this object, the question of the unionists and loyalists, has been kicked down the road. The idea the unionist/loyalist community will come into the fold once the British have gone may not be that simple, I for one wish it would be. Early in the twentieth century with the formation of the Irish Volunteers the British Government reacted by issuing a ban on the importation of arms into Ireland. This ban was applicable to the Irish Volunteers and no such restrictions were placed on the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). This was a clear indication that there was a law for the Orange tradition and another for the Green. This was re-emphasised in April 1914 when a major gun-running operation by the UVF, organised by Major Fred Crawford and Captain Wilfrid Spender, went ahead unmolested by the so-called British authorities. Between Friday 24th April and Saturday 25th April 1914 landings of weaponry destined for the UVF landed at Larne, Donaghadee and Bangor under the nose of the British authorities. Obviously, the ban on arms only applied to the Irish Volunteers who, on 26th July 1914 at Howth carried out their own importation of arms but without the apparent impunity enjoyed by the UVF. 

Padraig Pearse ironically, and perhaps naively, wrote at the time: 

Personally I think the Orangeman with a rifle a much less ridiculous figure than the Nationalist without a rifle … in the present circumstances accursed be the soul of any Nationalist who would dream of firing a shot or draw a sword against the Ulster Volunteers (1916: The Easter Rising by Tim Pat Coogan P.46).
 
What did Pearse think the UVF were going to do with their weapons? They certainly were not going duck shooting on the Lagan that was for sure. It was perhaps, though no doubt well meaning, as naïve at the time as expecting the Orange Order, and kindred organisations, today to change their rule books in the event of unification! The question is, and if the proclamation of 1916 means anything about “all the children” being treat equally, what about this clearly unequal organisation, the Orange Order? 

I do not have the answers, and do not profess to have. As a non-religious person looking objectively at the problem which will not go away, I suspect, how do we solve it? For centuries the Green tradition has reached out the hand of friendship to our Orange counterparts, and we are doing so again and make no apologies for that. The point I am trying to make is will the Orange tradition, as represented on our national flag, the tricolour, replicate this goodwill and harmony by amending the rule book forbidding Catholics from Orange Order and kindred organisations membership? If they would do this it most certainly would be a very progressive move on the part of the Orangemen. This is not to suggest any Catholic would wish to join but to have the opportunity available, should they opt to, would be a sign of ending sectarianism.

Another ethnocentric and sectarian organisation is the Royal Black Institution, often seen as a progression of the Orange Order though a separate institution. The RBI claim their basis is the promotion of the Protestant Reformation, though this is contested by those who claim their rituals are not biblical at all. Roman Catholics or those Protestants married to a Catholic are not considered suitable candidates for membership of the RBI, in fact there is a ban on such persons becoming members. The Royal Black Institution are also seen as the senior of the loyal orders referring to each other as “Sir Knight” whereas the Orange Order refer to each other as “Brother”. 

Either way this organisation in a united Ireland based on equality and non-sectarianism, non-discrimination surely does not fit in to the mould of equality. All members of the RBI must be, or have previously been members of an Orange Lodge and must have progressed through all the degrees of the Orange Order first. The candidate must have shown good character while undergoing this progression if he wishes to join this “elite” loyal organisation which is more common to the masons than perhaps the Orange Order. The Royal Black Institution is also known as the “Royal Black Preceptory.” The Preceptory is a designation borrowed from the masonic Knights Templar, who fought in the crusades against the Muslims, a campaign ironically ordered by Pope Urban II. The Black Order mimics the Royal ritual of knighting members and calling them “Sir Knight” which does not mean they have been knighted by the British Monarch - they are what could be described as bogus knights. The RBI has a lower tolerance for rowdiness than does the Orange Order and appearance on the Institutions parades must be impeccable. They often look down on their lower brethren of the Orange marches, a kind of masonic snobbery, but one thing both have in common; they are both anti-Catholic.

Not to sound or be sectarian myself in this perception of secret masonic organisations whose practices are not conducive to the kind of non-sectarian Ireland republicans I wish to see, I must mention a Catholic organisation who practice the same, but in reverse. The Ancient Order of Hibernians (AOH), founded in New York City in 1836 is a Catholic, equally sectarian organisation. Members must be male, Catholic and either born in Ireland or be of Irish descent. By definition Protestants are not welcome and, in much the same way as the Orange Order and Royal Black Institution operate against Catholics, Protestants, Irish or not, cannot be considered for membership of the AOH. 

In an Ireland encompassing “Catholic Protestant and dissenter” how can Irish Protestants be expected to support such an entity while the sectarian AOH continue along this path. The religious sectarian position and rules of the AOH gives the far-right of the loyalist community just the ammunition they need to tell their brethren, wrongly; look we, as Protestants, are not welcome here in this united Ireland.

Early in the twentieth century the AOH was strongly opposed to the secular non-sectarian ideologies of the Irish republican Brotherhood (IRB). The revolutionary IRB was non-sectarian and one of its more famous members, a Cork Protestant called Sam Maguire – who gave his name to the Gaelic All Ireland Football trophy – was the man who introduced and signed up Michael Collins to the IRB. The IRB had no time for the AOH who were seen as an impediment to Irish progress and were as divisive as the Orang Order and RBI. The AOH could, with certain justification, be described as a Green version of the Orange Order and RBI! They are equally sectarian as the former and also an antithesis to an Ireland of equality and non-sectarianism. Ironically the AOH on 13th June 1916 at a convention in Dublin chaired by Joe Devlin, the organisation approved the proposed partition of Ireland, in the event of the Home Rule Bill being enacted by 475 votes to 265. This vote well predated the Government of Ireland Act 1920 when partition was again to be the British answer in Ireland! 

Today the AOH in the six counties remains a visible but marginal part of the Catholic community which suggests their membership may be in decline. Could many of the AOH be aligned with the emerging political far-right in Ireland today? The right-wing of the Catholic church, the successors to those who supported Franco in the Spanish Civil War (1936-39) who marched off to fight under the Blue Shirt leader, Eoin O’ Duffy with the blessing of many Bishops, believing they were fighting for the Catholic church against socialism! The Orange Order, Royal Black institution hate with a vigour the Roman Catholic faith, the AOH, in much the same way detest the reformed Protestant religion.

Membership of the Orange Order and, it must be presumed, the RBI has been in decline for a number of years. Membership once provided advantages within the Protestant governed statelet but this is no longer applicable. Since the fall of the unionist government in 1973 the “Protestant land for a Protestant people” no longer applies in the same way. Membership of the Order in the six counties is around the 34,000 mark, its lowest ever in my understanding. With the once sacred Protestant Ascendancy now toppled the main object of the order appears to be preventing Irish unification and celebrating the twelfth of July. Perhaps we should all, Catholic, Protestant and atheist alike, that is the sane majority of us, should be grateful the memberships of such sectarian groups are in decline.

Today’s Ireland has changed greatly since these organisations came into being. In the modern Ireland there are many different ethnic and racial groups who fit neither the Catholic or Protestant definition or narrative. So, would Muslims, Jews, Hindus and any other minority cultures and religions be welcome in either the Orange Order, the RBI or the AOH? Highly unlikely I would suggest, so how can these people feel equal when organisations exist, legally, which prohibit their participation? This is not the same as saying people of colour are not welcome, providing they fit the correct religious criteria [in the case of the AOH Irish or Irish descent], but sectarianism is in itself a form of racism and should be stamped out.

The question is, do any of these groups have a place in a modern united Ireland? For example, would a Muslim be welcome in the AOH? Or would, on the other hand, a Hindu be welcome in the Orange Order? Could a Jewish person join the AOH? Doubtful on all counts. These organisations certainly would not be welcome in a socialist republic, but what about a non-socialist Ireland which, alas, looks the most likely? How can organisations be accommodated who hold such divisive rules? I do not have the answers, apart from sounding dictatorial myself, so I will leave this conundrum for the reader to answer!! 

Caoimhin O’Muraile is a Dublin based Marxist and author. 

10 comments:

  1. " Highly unlikely as the organisation was formed to be sectarian! Many of the orders members are Unionist politicians, which beggars the question how can these people holding office in a sectarian organisation hold governmental positions? "

    You realize the Shinners are also there? Very deeply sectarian to the core yet you seem to ignore that, why?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I was referring to sectarian organisations, not political parties be them "the shinners' DUP, DUP or alliance. I was/am arguing against such organisations. For the record the same applies to Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, People Before Profit or the Irish Labour Party. The point is,does room exist for such,clearly sectarian groups in a united Ireland?

    Caoimhin O'Muraile

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, I get you. I've no time for the OO or the bands but it's a strictly Protestant organisation, complaining that they are sectarian is a bit like complaining that the members of Opus Dei can't be Protestant.

      Delete
  3. Put a blockade round the whole island, save the rest of the world from our insanity

    ReplyDelete
  4. David, if that is your opinion, your entitled to it, but I never implied that. To quote Voltaire; "I dont agree with a word you say, but defend your right to say it".

    ReplyDelete
  5. Sorry David, that was from me, Caoimhin O'Muraile.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Best, that we're sceptical of all opinions, and that includes one's own

    "The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions."

    Leonardo Da Vinci

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Henry Joy, as in MCracken? Never fudge from an opinion unless that opinion can be proven wrong. Marxist economics, to me, have stood the test of time.

      Caoimhin.

      Delete
  7. Caoimhin,
    Bit of tongue in cheek. Although we're insane. It's not until you get a bit older you realise your previous beliefs were mental

    ReplyDelete
  8. True David, applicable to those who consider themselves "insane". On the other hand maybe your own "previous beliefs were mental", but mo chara look at the subject logically, there is, and cannot be, any room for sectarianism, racism, and anti-semitism.

    Caoimhin

    ReplyDelete