Anthony McIntyre sees an anti-intellectual trend at play in the attempt to exclude alternative voices from the public discourse around measures to combat Covid-19. 

'My duty is to speak out,
 I do not want to be an accomplice' - Emile Zola

Last week, Dr Ciara Kelly challenged the Dublin government's insistence on the imposition of level 5 restrictions for a six week period as a necessary measure to curb the spread of Covid 19. While far from convinced that she has called it right, I welcomed her contribution to a discourse which seemed to be increasingly timid in the face of a regime of hush.  

A public broadcaster, Kelly, up until August, had for three years hosted Newstalk Lunchtime Live but has since taken over the Newstalk Breakfast slot from which she aired her critical views. It allowed her to reach a wide audience which is probably what infuriated some of her detractors who seemed eager to take their masks off for the purpose of spitting venom her way. 

While much of the critical commentary was robust it remained civil. At the same time there was no shortage of suggestions that Kelly, who tested positive for the virus in March, was some rabid right winger in the pay of big business, a Nazi fellow traveler, unfit to be a public broadcaster, a stooge of the ruling class, an unreconstructed Thatcherite prepared to sacrifice the vulnerable for the sake of preserving the capitalist economy, an advocate of 5000 people dying ... ad nauseum.

Much of this seemed pulled straight out of the jacksie, none of it grounded in plausible substance. Nowhere did she not advocate that citizens physically defy the government and break the law, cough and sneeze on everybody within reach or turn up with a tin hat at the next anti-masking protest waving a tricolour. Her thought crime amounted to saying: 

I think it is the fact that in 2021, 2022 and 2023 deaths will be higher as a consequence of our behaviour in 2020. No one will talk about that — We’ll lose lives from this as well. I’m not alone — There are loads of doctors who feel the exact same as we put we don’t hear them. All around the country today, there will be people in absolute despair at this news. I am very afraid that, on balance, we are getting it wrong.


‘It is about the fact that in January the cases will climb again and we will be back to square one. We will have gained nothing other than being able to party for Christmas.

While certainly a contentious opinion, that is about the worst that can be genuinely said about it. It was hardly the embryonic stage of a Mussolini-type march on Dublin.  

Kelly further alleged that the National Public Health Emergency Team was ‘flying in the face” of the World Health Organisation (WHO) by implementing more restrictions. In this she appears to be in step with WHO

We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus … the only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.

While, for now, at variance with Ciara Kelly on the usefulness of a lockdown, I firmly believe this is the type of discussion Irish society should be having, North and South. Dissenting doctors such as Ann McCloskey should not be on the receiving end of an email from the General Medical Council merely because she questioned the efficacy of masks. 

For some as yet inexplicable reason Ciara Kelly's twitter account is no longer live. It might be related to the impact previous abuse has had on her.

I've been accused of things that I'm not as if they are fact, and then people have told me to kill myself, told me that they wish I was dead, told me they don't know how I live with myself, how I sleep at night, that they hate me, they despise everything I stand for. People I don't know from Adam talk about me like they know me and it makes me feel sick. It makes me feel physically sick when I'm in that zone, but it is part and parcel of being a woman with a profile at the moment with the way the online world works and that's just the way it is.

Vicious. Perhaps those who seek to suffocate a diversity of opinion think society would be better off if what Professor Kathleen Lynch feared two decades ago was to become even more entrenched, a situation in which 'there has been a neutralisation of public discourse and debate. A language of sameness prevails'. 

To portray a competent dissenting voice as a Ciaronavirus that needs the vaccine of abuse and censorship to keep it suppressed is itself a malaise that is best treated by a good dose of "fuck off." As Eddie Holt wrote in 2001:

critical analysis and opposition even if unpopular in some circles, is the heart of democracy. When political representatives cannot or will not provide it, then the citizen must.

Which is what Ciara Kelly did. 

Sticking fingers in our own ears and wishing it would all go away is not going to resolve the fundamental differences of opinion that have arisen around how best to tackle the pandemic. Yet, it is better than sticking a gag in the mouths of those we would rather not hear.  Ciara Kelly, like the rest of us, should comply with the lockdown and accept the advice to wear a mask. She should not under any circumstance wear a muzzle. 

⏩Follow on Twitter @AnthonyMcIntyre.

Masks, Not Muzzles

Anthony McIntyre sees an anti-intellectual trend at play in the attempt to exclude alternative voices from the public discourse around measures to combat Covid-19. 

'My duty is to speak out,
 I do not want to be an accomplice' - Emile Zola

Last week, Dr Ciara Kelly challenged the Dublin government's insistence on the imposition of level 5 restrictions for a six week period as a necessary measure to curb the spread of Covid 19. While far from convinced that she has called it right, I welcomed her contribution to a discourse which seemed to be increasingly timid in the face of a regime of hush.  

A public broadcaster, Kelly, up until August, had for three years hosted Newstalk Lunchtime Live but has since taken over the Newstalk Breakfast slot from which she aired her critical views. It allowed her to reach a wide audience which is probably what infuriated some of her detractors who seemed eager to take their masks off for the purpose of spitting venom her way. 

While much of the critical commentary was robust it remained civil. At the same time there was no shortage of suggestions that Kelly, who tested positive for the virus in March, was some rabid right winger in the pay of big business, a Nazi fellow traveler, unfit to be a public broadcaster, a stooge of the ruling class, an unreconstructed Thatcherite prepared to sacrifice the vulnerable for the sake of preserving the capitalist economy, an advocate of 5000 people dying ... ad nauseum.

Much of this seemed pulled straight out of the jacksie, none of it grounded in plausible substance. Nowhere did she not advocate that citizens physically defy the government and break the law, cough and sneeze on everybody within reach or turn up with a tin hat at the next anti-masking protest waving a tricolour. Her thought crime amounted to saying: 

I think it is the fact that in 2021, 2022 and 2023 deaths will be higher as a consequence of our behaviour in 2020. No one will talk about that — We’ll lose lives from this as well. I’m not alone — There are loads of doctors who feel the exact same as we put we don’t hear them. All around the country today, there will be people in absolute despair at this news. I am very afraid that, on balance, we are getting it wrong.


‘It is about the fact that in January the cases will climb again and we will be back to square one. We will have gained nothing other than being able to party for Christmas.

While certainly a contentious opinion, that is about the worst that can be genuinely said about it. It was hardly the embryonic stage of a Mussolini-type march on Dublin.  

Kelly further alleged that the National Public Health Emergency Team was ‘flying in the face” of the World Health Organisation (WHO) by implementing more restrictions. In this she appears to be in step with WHO

We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus … the only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.

While, for now, at variance with Ciara Kelly on the usefulness of a lockdown, I firmly believe this is the type of discussion Irish society should be having, North and South. Dissenting doctors such as Ann McCloskey should not be on the receiving end of an email from the General Medical Council merely because she questioned the efficacy of masks. 

For some as yet inexplicable reason Ciara Kelly's twitter account is no longer live. It might be related to the impact previous abuse has had on her.

I've been accused of things that I'm not as if they are fact, and then people have told me to kill myself, told me that they wish I was dead, told me they don't know how I live with myself, how I sleep at night, that they hate me, they despise everything I stand for. People I don't know from Adam talk about me like they know me and it makes me feel sick. It makes me feel physically sick when I'm in that zone, but it is part and parcel of being a woman with a profile at the moment with the way the online world works and that's just the way it is.

Vicious. Perhaps those who seek to suffocate a diversity of opinion think society would be better off if what Professor Kathleen Lynch feared two decades ago was to become even more entrenched, a situation in which 'there has been a neutralisation of public discourse and debate. A language of sameness prevails'. 

To portray a competent dissenting voice as a Ciaronavirus that needs the vaccine of abuse and censorship to keep it suppressed is itself a malaise that is best treated by a good dose of "fuck off." As Eddie Holt wrote in 2001:

critical analysis and opposition even if unpopular in some circles, is the heart of democracy. When political representatives cannot or will not provide it, then the citizen must.

Which is what Ciara Kelly did. 

Sticking fingers in our own ears and wishing it would all go away is not going to resolve the fundamental differences of opinion that have arisen around how best to tackle the pandemic. Yet, it is better than sticking a gag in the mouths of those we would rather not hear.  Ciara Kelly, like the rest of us, should comply with the lockdown and accept the advice to wear a mask. She should not under any circumstance wear a muzzle. 

⏩Follow on Twitter @AnthonyMcIntyre.

81 comments:

  1. Covid is an another example of the pitchfork mentality on social media. People have lost their critical thinking skills. Even when I agree with someone and I play Devil's advocate and point out stats that throw the argument, nine times out of ten you hear 'what you wanting old people just to die?' What?
    I find myself agreeing with people I consider my ideological enemies, Peter Hitchens, Julia Hartley Brewer for example. People I used to shout at while reading. Not just on covid but on the partisan journalism, particular regarding that crackpot Trump.
    I've had sleepless nights worrying I might be becoming right wing. If I start nodding along to the Tories, that's it, OBE by my own hand.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Might be interesting to hear why Ciara has closed her twitter account
    George Hook's exit from NewsTalk comes to mind
    If I remember it correctly and if my analysis at the time was right
    His apologies though initially sufficient for the station's management just didn't cut it for the corporate sponsor of his show

    Ciara's comment re 'all cause mortality' have to be factored in to any discussion. Current all-cause death rates run around 80 per day in the RoI.

    Masks are a different matter and regardless of their efficacy are unlikely to contribute negatively to those figures. Anecdotal evidence indeed seems to indicate a significant positive contribution in the battle against this droplet borne infection. Though its challenging to evaluate their value in isolation from social distancing and hygiene interventions

    People really ought inform themselves on the nature of contagion
    If they don't they can only expect wrath from some of us that have
    If more citizens had been less reckless in their behaviour and more compliant with the original guidelines we wouldn't have needed further restrictions
    Those of us who have been compliant have the right to be angry
    And have the right to express it
    Along with the right to use bad language (if only for cathartic relief from our rage) and advocate for effective sanctions

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. HJ - yes it would be good to know more about the reason the account is closed and whether it is as a result of he vile abuse thrown her way.
      I would guess Ciara Kelly has informed herself of the nature of contagion plus a wide range of factors associated with the illness. Because of that she may have felt it necessary to express her opinion. She is a health professional and has the wherewithal to understand it better than me. For that reason I want to hear her view and Dr Holohan's, even while I am more inclined towards the latter.
      We have a situation where people have not complied with the guidelines and it would be good to know how much of this results from the often poor and confusing manner in which the government made its case.
      Everybody has the right to be angry - those of us who have complied have no monopoly on that. Anger has been building up which Ciara Kelly gave expression to.
      This is a blog that does not prohibit bad language but it does its best to facilitate ideas not insults. Nor will it permit bullying (which you have never resorted to).
      Those who want to use insults can do so on their own Facebook page.

      Delete
    2. AM

      there is a distinction between questioning 'all cause mortality' and questioning mask wearing

      Sure there are anomalies in how regulations have been communicated but from my observations that seems a cop out
      I see stores open which are trying to get round the regulations by offering hand sanitisers and masks for sale
      I've seen the bouncy castles and several cars outside homes
      Also, every house in the country has received a 'road map pamphlet' and I'd bet the basic guidelines are to be found in several languages on some of our Government webpages
      The issue is not one of ignorance
      Its one of non-compliance

      Responsible commentators whilst having every right to criticise really ought simultaneously reiterate the basics

      (i) Keep your distance: ideally 2m
      (ii) Minimise your contacts
      (iii)Evaluate each situation re potential for contagion
      (iv) Wash your hands
      (v) Wear a mask to protect others and demand equal compliance from those that might impact on one's own health

      Its not rocket science
      If everyone adhered to the guidelines we could have comfortably alternated between level 2 and 3

      As I heard Ciara Kelly state early on, "its not the virus that travels, its people"

      Most of us have a circle of concerns
      However we must firstly operate from our circle of influence and do the things we have direct control over

      Then anyone who wishes to can go for cathartic relief by voicing their opinions & concerns

      Delete
  3. HJ - yes there is a distinction but not in what David terms the pitchfork response to both. Which is the point at the heart of recent discussion on the blog.
    You are entitled to think it is a cop out - doubt I will be looking you sent to the re-ed for having a different opinion.
    WE can't really say whether it is ignorance or no compliance. It is non compliance in some cases but RTFM was coined for people who don't Read The Fuckin Manual - which I am sure has application in our current situation.
    It is a possibility we could have alternated between levels 2 and 3 (I would find it uncomfortable) but I thought from the first lockdown we would back at this point because of lockdown fatigue. And when we lift this one we will likely be back at it post Christmas.
    People will be less likely to comply if they are not convinced by the argument. I believe in the argument but feel the government have been less than persuasive in it and that views like those of Ciara Kelly are beneficial to society if not to government.
    Despite everything, there is nothing in what you say that would lead me to think critics should be sectioned or sent to the camps.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. AM

      if this were an Ebola type virus there'd be no debate to be had
      The difference between ignorance and non-compliance would be quickly grasped by the vast vast majority
      The ignorant & slow learners would be quickly rounded up and sent for re-education
      And those not responsive to remedial help would be quickly sectioned
      And all done with widespread support

      The effects of these viruses may be different
      And though the transmission paths are not exactly the same they are dynamically similar

      Time people got with the program

      Delete
    2. HJ - if people in the medical profession and citizens felt the government approach to the Ebola virus might produce more deaths than the virus, there would very much be a debate, and a most welcome one. But we don't have an Ebola type virus and the population are not so dumb to think that we do.
      More people might get with the program if the merits of the program are explained to their satisfaction, and they can consider the strength of those merits against what others claim are demerits.
      Eddie Holt sort of summed this up: The advice of the powerful is that we should all carry on as before - keep swimming in the afternoon if that is your gig - and leave the "war" to the people in charge. History has taught us that the most important time for discussion and reflection is both in the lead up to war and during it. Otherwise the people in charge will have their way. Never a good thing.
      Personally, at the heel of the hunt I prefer not to protected from the virus if the costs of my protection are being paid for by society's young and others in terms of their mental health. The best route for a society is one that is discussed by society rather than one imposed by government and about which we are denied the opportunity to explore.

      Delete
  4. AM

    as I said to David
    I could roll with segregation between young and old too
    We'd maybe get a payment to do it LOL
    Couple of bottles of wine and a bottle of whiskey every week plus my broadband and I'm the most self-contained man in Connacht

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I could too but it is not just as straightforward with a 15 year old at home who is champing at the bit and a zest for girls.
      Have whiskey here but have been sampling the mixer drinks - vodka and soda which I haven't had in years until a fortnight ago and then last night I tried Gin with bitter lemon. Surprised how much I liked it, as Gin on its own is horrible - not like whiskey / brandy / rum / bourbon, all seriously nice sipping drinks. Last wine I drank were two bottles of French red last month. Very nice. Still have two here which I'll see the bottom of soon enough I guess.

      Delete
  5. Multi generational households are the challenge
    And the probable reason we can't follow the segregation path

    Segregation ought be no great problem for two 64 year olds living in a thatched cottage down a boreen far from the maddening crowd ... but it is for her indoors

    She misses her grandkids
    And I'm constantly running contagion lectures
    Holy war here some nights LOL

    (First bit of shopping when I'm down in Andalusia, summer or winter, always includes a 1 ltr bottle of Larios Gin, bag of ice, loose lemons and a 2 ltr bitter lemon ... probably still not much over €10 for all)

    ReplyDelete
  6. I've been appalled at how confusing the message in UK and Ireland has been communicated. It's actually not that difficult to understand.

    1, It's extremely contagious.
    2, In most cases people recover easily
    3, But the number who don't recover and require hospitilization would overwhelm the healthcare system if left unchecked
    4, It has a two week life cycle then it dies
    5, The biggest spread is in house/family groups so isolation works best
    until there's a vaccine
    6, Masks LIMIT spread not Stop it completely. Wear one for others.
    7, Wash hands and maintain good hygiene
    8, Eat healthy and take Vitamin D3 supplemenmts as there's evidence it helps
    9, Make use of phones and internet to stay in touch with friends and family
    10, Exercise and try to becme healthy/lose weight/ limit alcohol intake.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Steve

      with you most of the way on that

      However in #4 its probably more accurate to say 80% will be through it in 2 weeks
      The other 20% will require hospitalisation
      And a subset of that will crash the ICU beds
      Occupancy runs into 10 weeks and more for many

      (I'm following all of what you advise save limiting the booze intake)

      Delete
    2. Woody Allen once said he could live to be 100 if he would only give up everything that would make him want to live to be 100. Alcohol is a most useful companion as we walk the way of the virus.

      Delete
  7. HJ,

    You haven't a clue what you are talking about. All you are doing is churning out propaganda. Don't tell me you have researched anything at all about bat flu...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Frankie

      all we need to understand is contagion
      The rest of it is irrelevant

      Delete
  8. Iam ok with the lock down. The mother lost two friends to covid last week, elderly people but active. Would rather not a strategy that let's the 'fates' decide these things, if it's avoidable it's avoidable

    Would prefer if the numbers was got to zero and the island sealed. That's the quickest way back to normal isn't it? Shinners and SDLP useless on it it the North, defending a system they only manage, London designed the Norths covid response. If covid affected live stock every single parliamentary political party would be pushing for an all Ireland strategy.

    The other big injustice is the half in half out approach, some shouldering the load so other sectors can go interrupted.


    People want this over but no one is talking about what over looks like. A germ has shut down societies all over the world.

    So by the time covid20 or covid21 comes around are we going to have a health service that can deal with it, are people going to have statutory sick leave, are jobs going to be well ventilated, are we going to increase resources for public transport, are people going to be packed into rented accommodation. When all this is over does it look like last January or do we take steps that a germ can't hit as hard.


    Very few people getting their say in this. There is the health service who are worried about being over ran and some people who want minimum disruption, nothing more to the debate than that

    ReplyDelete
  9. Steve,
    People understand it. The restrictions are costing livelihoods. The debate is whether the cure is worse than the disease.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. this is what Steve seems to overlook. People know all that - the communication problem lies elsewhere. Brilliant Prime Time discussion last week where Dan O'Brien sketched a scenario where the borrowing would continue to fund everything but ICU capacity and then would reach a point where no more borrowing was possible and there is a catastrophic meltdown with even worse results. It might not turn out that way at all but should society be denied the right to hear the argument?

      Delete
    2. David/AM,

      I haven't overlooked it but can only give my opinion from down here.
      Livelihoods won't mean shit if you are dead.
      If they open the economy back up then the virus will rip right through society,not only putting immunocompromised people into the graves or ICU but ordinary day to day normally preventable deaths too. Car crashes, children’s injuries, ordinary pancreatitis would have to be turned away from hospital wards as doctors then have to decides who lives or dies, the 15 year old with appendicitis or the 15 year old with asthma who’s got COVID?
      People are showing signs of pandemic fatigue I get it, we are all over it, but the bastard virus is ruthless and public healthcare systems just can’t cope with a massive influx.
      Just look at the Spanish flu for kill rates, or even present day USA, they’ll have about a million dead by January I reckon, if you take in to account all those not reported. South America, India and Africa are already fucked.

      Delete
  10. Listening to the opening of Brendan ó Connor on radio 1 on Sunday might be of interest in this discussion.

    O connor refers to some opinion poll that suggests that 66% support the lock down. asks the question of the panel is the narrative wrong, that the conversation is skewed the other way.

    The panel basically ignore the question and give the impression that the general view is against the lockdown.

    QUOTE of the year "the government is listening to much to experts"

    How much tax payers money gets spent on inquiries and tribunals when the government don't listen to experts.


    https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/share/radio1/11246812

    ReplyDelete
  11. That last point is an excellent one AM, would be interested to know how accurate Dan O Brien's scenario is. There seems to be significant disagreement on how "unlimited" borrowing really is. Some months ago I recall Paschal Donogue saying that they could continue like that for about 4 months. Presuming that EU recuse package could extend that for another 4-12 months. If that however is not the case, I can understand why some have called for the same unlimited borrowing to be applied to other things. But this might not be possible - I'd like to know who is correct.

    Good points on 15 year old champing at the bit - I see many young people out and about who crave company and it is difficult for parents. It seems that our biggest challenges are not the big ones, but the little ones.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Shoe, thank you.

      It is less a case of who is right or wrong in terms of where they might think the project is headed. What is definitely wrong is the determination with which some set about trying to deny us the right to hear.

      Delete
    2. Governments had no problem finding money when the Great Financial Collapse happened in 2008.

      Delete
  12. Steve,
    You're from a working class loyalist district. You know the ramifications of poverty. Livelihoods don't mean shit comments are beneath you. the consequences of unemployment will cause more harm.
    In my opinion the time for emotional arguments are over. Grandstanding arguments about a million deaths in the US are note worthy but they're variables, there is 320 million of them for a start, New York managed it terribly etc. The point is people will die. If the health services aren't ready after eight months they never will be.
    I don't think pandemic fatigue is that relevant. People have no money. The standard of life is dropping. They have multiple worries financially and when you combine this with government incompetence and experts arguing lockdowns are counter productive, anger is inevitable.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "the consequences of unemployment will cause more harm."

      Than what, death?

      "In my opinion the time for emotional arguments are over. Grandstanding arguments about a million deaths in the US are note worthy but they're variables, there is 320 million of them for a start"

      That's pretty callous and my estimate is conservative, I expect it to be far more in the US due to the mismagement as you've pointed out.

      Anger is inevitable. This is dark times indeed.

      Delete
    2. Anger is rarely or if ever the bottom line
      It is most often underpinned by fear & frustration
      And god knows there're plenty of opportunities for both around currently

      Here's the thing though, some folk luxuriate in these feelings of anger. In their self-righteously strong emotions they get to feel more alive, an experience they might rarely access. And at the most extreme they become addicted to these strong feelings
      Hence they create these emotional highs disproportionately more often than is necessary or useful

      (For most folk all the drama is created & directed unconsciously)

      These dynamics run the 'drama triangle' of most systems; individuals within families, organisations & communities all prone to participation in the interchangeable roles of victim, persecutor and rescuer

      Anger is predictable, sometimes understandable and on occasion even useful ... not inevitable though

      Delete
  13. HenryJoy,

    Apart from taking away peoples freedom of expression and partially dehumanizing everyone, mask aren't great for your health on any level...

    This morning Henry millions of healthy people will take a mask from their pocket where they left it last night. Some might have a nice clean washed mask to put in their pocket for later. But what they all will do is put a mask on their face full of dust and bacteria and breath it all in.

    Now throw into the equation the micro fibers from the masks they breath in...

    Don't forget the amount of oxygen the body needs for lungs, heart...brain is reduced because of the mask and the carbon monoxide the body exhales is getting recycled back into everyone's lungs...

    Then people wonder why are normally fit healthy people suddenly developing breathing problems...(my guess is most people where a mask for several hours a day, sometimes longer)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Frankie

      no matter how this is handled someone's freedom is going to be restricted ... the first essential freedom is the right to life
      The right to live for as long as one can & as well as one can
      If we are to prioritise the right to free movement and the right to work above the right to life then that has a dehumanising effect too ... ultimately a greater one I'd contend

      With all the various media formats there's has never been an easier time for expression ... influence as ever is another matter, save but for our vote.
      We have the opportunity to vote. We elect representatives to govern. Sometimes their governance pleases us other times ... its a different matter

      Your criticism of masks is fallacious
      The dust and so forth may even have a hermetic effect ... read up on hormesis
      Oxygenation argument dodgy too ... bring yourself up to speed on the Bohr effect ... certain amount of CO2 required to effect the release of O2 into the bloodstream

      Save but for our kids & grandkids Frankie we're the cutting edge of evolutionary 'progress'
      Many people erroneously believe evolution is the survival of the fittest whereas in truth its the survival of the most adaptable

      Humanity will survive through the efforts of those who are most adaptable
      Not through the actions of those that are bound to the familiar
      Not by the actions of those who want to do the same things they did last year
      You can't have your old life back for as long as the virus roams
      Get with the feckin program

      Delete
  14. Replies
    1. Even though I'd probably score high enough on many of the metrics for 'anti-social personality disorder' myself
      I believe we'll find significant correlation between non mask wearing and this so-called 'disorder'

      Wearing a mask is essentially a pro-social response
      Non-compliance is essentially an anti-social one

      Hardly surprising then that many who refuse to wear them or those that do it and are resentful about it are the guy & gals whose identities are firmly tied up with being on the margins!

      Delete
  15. Articles like that one in the metro are part of the reason conspiracy websites do so well. Labelling people negatively for having a different opinion is what causes polarised camps.
    Bit wary of psychology. Who do they study? How many people do you have to study before making blanket assumptions?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Henry,
    I know you weren't addressing me but a couple of things caught my eye while reading. Is the right to work and move not essentially the right to life? I don't think anyone is prioritising work over health, what there arguing is locking down healthy people is counter productive both from an economical and health perspective as the two are intertwined.
    The other bit I found interesting is the adaptability concept. Is adaptability not a characteristic of the fittest?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We'd have no traffic laws and no health & safety industry if the right to life wasn't prioritised over those of movement and work

      I think if you delve a little more into the evolutionary stuff you'll find that that adaptability is key
      Fitness as in fitness for purpose ... yes
      Fitness as in fittest, ie the ability to dominate ... not so over the longer run

      All these distinctions are inexorably interlinked
      So the potential to miss my nuanced positioning is understandable

      Delete
  17. People are asked to wear masks in someone else's place of work. Buses, shops, is that oppressive are they lifting people for not wearing them going down the street?


    There are two degrees of a living with the virus strategy at odds with each other. One wants to keep everything open and let the cards fall as they may, the other wants restrictioned/phased openings to control the hospital intake. They both rip the shit out of each other. It's the zero covid strategy that is getting silenced.

    It is a fact that numbers were gotten down to single figures. Do it again and quarantine at the airports. If it was livestock it would have been the first strategy enacted. But property development contracts and the aviation industry and hospitality are bigger priorities so the state balances that with hospital resources.

    If they were prepared to take a hit for a few weeks, just like everyone else then everyone gets a shot on the bounce.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Replies
    1. So mitigation strategies in an inclosed space are masks, ventilation, time.

      Masks and time might be individual responsibility but ventilation is on management.

      Would be interesting if the same test was done on places still deemed necessary to remain open. Airplanes, factories some offices. Or hot spots Hospitals and nursing homes. The same science.

      Delete
  19. Henry,
    I never said the right to life wasn't prioritised over work, I stated that I didn't think anyone was prioritising work over health. I asked isn't the freedom of movement and work not key components in the right to life.
    If these distinctions are obviously interlinked why did you elevate one over another? What dominant species stops dominating over time? I know I am scrutinising but people's opinion on that sort of stuff interests me.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David

      I probably didn't communicate very clearly but I was attempting to make a distinction between fit for purpose against fitness as in strength ... I wasn't suggesting any species of itself looses dominance over time
      And yes I can see that that freedom of movement and the right to work are inexorably linked to the right to life under normal circumstances and appraisal and yet if one were to systemise each component into a hierarchal structure the right to life must be foundational

      Delete
  20. Steve,
    Don't be obtuse by more harm obviously I meant more deaths . Why is it callous to point out the US population? The death rate isn't much higher, if higher than say Britain. When people say hundred and fifty thousand are dead in the US, it sounds horrendous but many has died in Britain and they have 65 million and the US has 320 million. The point is every country has variables and if people point out the US death toll someone else will mention Sweden and people will talk past each other and get nowhere. Do we want to have a discussion about the beast way to deal with covid or score points and sound intelligent?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Get your point but is size of a population the best way to evaluate this situation country by country.

      Maybe no of deaths by no of cases in a country.

      But then different methodologies used in different places as well to catch cases.



      Delete
    2. David,

      My bad, I thought you were being flippant. Yes, best not to blind ourselves to any variables though either way it's a tough choice.

      Delete
  21. Henry,
    Fair enough. Didn't mean to scrutinise, those conversations interests me.
    I take your point regarding restrictions. For me too many people are divorcing the economy and the health system. I struggle to think of a poor country with a good health system. Cuba? I don't think we can debate enough, the potential cost of restrictions.

    ReplyDelete
  22. David

    as the old schoolmaster is supposed to have said 'the only wrong question is the question not asked'

    At the risk of appearing or sounding unwilling to be more flexible on these matters I must ask again what is it about contagion that people can't understand?

    When a contagious infection is allowed to run freely through a community eventually many workers become infected including key ones. Some will become ill as a result and others though asymptomatic will facilitate further spread of infection. Eventually the healthcare systems experiences a double whammy ... more and more healthcare workers succumb to illness or stress and demand for treatment and bed spaces increases. The healthcare system begins to fracture. The general public become disillusioned and more fearful. When this happens, as it surely must if left unchecked, very few will want to expose themselves to the risk of catching the virus. The economy will shrink drastically or collapse anyway. Chaos ensues.

    Alternately mitigation guidelines and measures are introduced and followed. The economy suffers, some sectors more than others, and a fair amount of dieback is tolerated. Tolerated in the hope that some of the root-stock survives and along with that the potential for green shoots to emerge again.

    Either way there's pain. There's the immediate pain of facing up to the challenge and there's the delayed and immensely greater potential suffering of not acting decisively and swiftly

    As can be expected, there's those who will man-up and take the pain
    Just as there's a cohort who'll get caught up in denial, deceit and delusion

    As we face into the time of year in the northern hemisphere when respiratory infections increase greatly expect the extra pressure to bring most health services into or at least onto the verge of collapse.
    By then the concerns you and others raise and the concerns the author of the piece raises about debate and accountability will be quickly dismissed and sharply discounted.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The problem is though that there are two opposing strategies that allow the virus to roam. They are both economy over life strategies.


      The half in half out approach the west has been at since summer has no end in sight.

      If you look at the numbers of cases either they are only catching a tiny fraction of cases or this thing hasn't hit 20% of the population yet so along way to go.

      In the early days they were talking about two weeks quarantines at the airport. Looks like that industry and its ancillaries lobbyed effectively. But has consequences. Its back to the start of the century and the west is in a some businesses are to big to fail situation.

      It's not just aviation, construction has time limit clauses that some would lose their bollox on if they kicked in in this. But then who won't.

      The best mitigation strategy is zero covid. Its the elephant in the room.

      Delete
  23. Henry
    People understand contagion. What you're saying is what government epidemiologists have said from the start. The problem with that is , it never materialised. Now more epidemiologists are arguing lockdowns are ultimately pointless as viruses like these don't go away and people will interact.
    Their argument about protecting those who need protecting and allowing the rest to attempt to build up immunity makes sense to me.
    I'll concede that my knowledge on this is limited and my unconscious bias may be pulling me in a certain way. Having said that I can't see how the official line will work. Most people I know are saying they're not stopping working regardless, we'll see but if that's case there's interaction right there. As you said it's the season of respiratory illnesses but it's also the festive season and what's your plan, to stop families and friends gargling together over the holidays, good luck with that.
    I've noticed that while you lecture your fellow citizen, you seem to be quite lenient on governments who have made a complete hash of this, we are eight months in and there are still doctors and employees entering care homes without being tested. It's still the old and vulnerable who are dying.
    You say either way there is pain. You don't seem to entertain that this road may be causing more pain or unnecessary pain. Everyone I know has someone they love who is high risk, this isn't about selfishness. It's about logic. Is this our plan, hide until we get a rushed vaccine that may work?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Bad 12,
    How would you go about zero covid?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In the absence of a vaccine every strategy is a mitigation strategy. Even people who advocate opening up everything advocate that the vulnerable are isolated while the rest of society build up heard immunity.

      Zerocovid is a mitigation strategy whereby we use the sea boundary around our country as a natural defence. What does it intail


      Extending current migration methods and using examples from North South buerocratic practices in agriculture to deal with infections in livestock herds, tracking and tracking, and common approaches to points of entry on to the island, all done before. A solidarity tax on people who can continue to work from home or out in the world and even pensioners to pay for it. Making proper ventilation a part of health and safety that is enforceable, building up health resources.


      At the moment under the current living with the virus strategy the aim is to get daily infections down to 100, go down to level 3 or 2 and then wait for it to get up to level 5 the situation we are in now. This is potentially life for the next few years. Yoyoing back and forth. But this is the same for all mitigation strategies, there is a yoyo component but how long is the recall time in each one.


      The living with the virus strategy focuses on protecting health resources. Some industries continue to work some don't. A zerocovid strategy sees no issue with protecting limited health resources. A zerocovid strategy questions where is the common good in some industries being protected over others.


      Covid zero is getting the daily figures down to zero, as long as this is maintained then there is no reason why normal life can't resume in ireland.


      If there are zero cases in ireland today then the only new cases can come from abroad. So it requires sealing the island with quarinteene for anyone coming onto it.

      Holidays abroad, free travel for work, tourism is the sacrifice unless people are willing to quarinteene but life in ireland goes on as normal.

      Always on alert for covid getting back in, hospital resources need to be built up, work and social spots need to be adapted for ventilation, contact tracing needs to be maintained, if necessary people need financial support to withstand another lockdown which all has to be paid for.

      In the absence of a vaccine there is no everyone is a winner strategy. This germ feeds of our social and work practices. So all mitigation factors are aimed at that. Choices are made to keep aviation open but not rural pubs, this is a political choice. A political choice can be made to keep normal life going, protect hospital resources but someone else takes the long term hit.

      Delete
  25. David

    RTE this evening reporting on Chief Medical Officer Dr Holohan's comments inform us that here in the RoI we are one of only 4 European states to have reduced the 7 Day incidence rate and he suspects that the R number is almost back to one here

    Relatively speaking our government is doing better than most especially so if we compare with the 6 Counties & the UK
    Sure, I have been frustrated by some of the Governments actions but in the round they're muddling through better than most

    The greater problem is with the assholes who disregard the restrictions & guidelines
    Those that understand contagion will want the actions of these prats curtailed and can rightfully demand greater censure of those violating both common sense & law

    Whether some folk realise it or not these are exceptional times
    Exceptional responses may be required
    I won't complain if in extraordinary circumstances extraordinary curtailments of rights (as applicable in ordinary times) are introduced
    As the herd gathers in I'll be in a part of a substantial and comfortable majority
    And we'll have no sympathy with the headbangers and their fellow travellers

    The 25th of December is just another day
    The sun will rise and the sun will set
    A short mid-winter day that the virus will be hoping to do what viruses do

    People would be well advised to keep that thought to the fore

    ReplyDelete
  26. Henry,
    Here we go again with the insults. People will be saying the same about you for wanting restrictions. Shout at each other all you like, it achieves nothing.
    Regardless of what you think of the 25th of December people will celebrate it. Implying people don't realise the times are extraordinary are beneath you. You are asking people to accept a police state to curb a virus that has a tiny death rate on the general population, good luck.
    I've also got to add where I am people do follow restrictions and the virus still runs amok, so it's personally reasonable to ponder if they're working.
    I read another article saying the most likely people in France to ignore restrictions are educated middle class women doesn't tie in with the anti social argument.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David

      the data supports interventions working
      European all cause mortality figures for March to September 2020 are running 1% higher than previous years ... the curves follow the same trajectories. On average 1% more 30 year olds died as did 1% more 80 year olds. As with all data there will be deviations ... the increases in some areas will be greater and in some less than the average. General well-being, educational attainment, level of social responsibility and random chance will play out. But with the interventions we've managed to curtail the all cause mortality rate at a 1% increase.
      To give that context though a 1% increase in mortality is about the same impact as HIV has had on overall mortality rates. Difference is that the impact of HIV on all cause mortality rates occurred over decades. The 1% increase due to Covid 19 has happened over 0.5 yrs and has happened despite varying levels of mitigation.

      (There's a bit of an 'apples and oranges' contrast in those figures: the 1% increase in 'all cause mortality' re HIV is for world-wide difference and culminative over 2 decades. Whereas the figure relating to Covid 19 is just for Europe. In all likelihood the increase in all cause mortality world wide over 0.5 yrs period exceeds the European 1%)

      Delete
  27. Restrictions work where people obey the rules, as evidenced by us here in Australia.

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    Replies
    1. Steve - I think most people agree that restrictions work. The question is but do they work in the long run or is there a risk that they will cause more harm than good? If there is no vaccine and restrictions continue there will be a gravely weaker economy and at some point a catastrophic meltdown where it will be the survival of the richest.

      Delete
  28. Larry Hughes comments

    I don't think for a minute there is a lethal virus outside my door. Neither does Cummings driving the length of the UK to see his parents in their 70s or the close on 100 TDs crammed into a golf club for a piss-up hours after locking everyone else down. Nor indeed the Queen who carried out engagements without a mask. Would the wee Brits risk her? No, there is a slightly nastier version of the flu at large and a media driven panic crusade that just won't quit. There is no deadly virus. Period. Old people die ffs let them. Endless positive tests that are faulty and few deaths. The fake positive tests are read out like the daily obituaries. It is insane. Get the bulldozers to dig mass graves for those who test positive you'll soon see how sick people are haha It is pure bollox. What is the thinking? If we lock everyone up we will stop anyone dying, EVER hahahaha...

    And while we are at it protecting the NHS lol That is telling sick people to stay home so the hospitals don't do their job. Like a hotel telling people stay away we don't want over crowding... What the hell are the hospitals there for ??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The run on hospitals in Italy back in March is what they are all attempting to avoid.

      Icu beds aren't limitless and it's not as simple as just a bed, it's the staff and the machines to operate it 24/7.

      If all icu beds are occupied by covid patients then there is no space for treating anything else.

      Seriousconditions that are Treatable if caught in time like sepsis, stroke, Hart attack what ever else.


      Mitigation strategies to protect hospitals makes sense doesn't it?

      Delete
    2. Larry

      Read the acount by acclaimed chidren's author Michael Rosen of his near death experiences with Covid-19 and try telling us that it is not a virus; that it is not real.

      Talk to the realtives of thr thousands of old people in care hones who died without beinbg able to say good bye to their lived ones that this is n ot a deadly virus. But in your Malthusian word "old people die ffs so let them". The same lack of compassion that you showed when you praised "gthe Russian bear" for levelling Aleppo.

      Delete
  29. Henry,
    Thanks for that response, was stuff there I wasn't aware of. Still have a query, how can we say the data shows restrictions work when only Sweden and a few states in the US didn't go into lockdown? What they comparing it to. How do you get empirical evidence in that situation?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David

      I can't really be sure how we'd control for Sweden save but to compare with the total European numbers

      But I've checked the all cause mortality figures for Sweden
      Data available up to Oct 5th 2020

      Average death rate per day 2020 is 258
      Average death rate per day 2019 is 243

      This represents an increase of 6%
      Compared to a Europe wide average increase in all cause mortality of 1%

      However the average death rate per day in 2018 was 253
      So if we compare 2020 (data up to Oct 5th) with 2018 that's only a 2% increase

      So if we measure against 2018 the Swedes have an increase in all cause mortality of 900 aprox over and above European average increases
      And if we measure against 2019 the increase comes in around 4,500 aprox
      I think these figures validate the restrictions imposed in many European countries

      Delete
  30. B.a.c 12
    Of course protecting hospitals makes sense. But to plagiarise Anthony at what cost. Use a sea boundary means letting nobody in or out, what's the long term ramifications? It's not enough to say protect hospitals, debate ended societies are interwoven and fragile, without a strong economy what's the health service going to be like?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are two competing costs, the general run of the economy and an icu service that if it catches a case in time can deal with strokes, Hart attacks, sepsis.

      99% chance I won't die of covid but I probably am in the at risk category of two of the above. I've been in recessions before and I didn't die from it. Suppose the self interest motive for me is to protect the health service but it's a competing interest and that's the nub of the debate.

      Two weeks quarantine. Tourism is probably gone. Other industries remain open. At the moment it's possible for a tourist to come here but other industries are closed, again its a competing interest issue but the choice is clearly being made at the moment in favour of aviation, hotels, the restaurants which I was surprised to observe clearly have more clout now than the vintageers, romantic ireland is dead and gone and all that. But a choice has already been made, Iam just suggesting a different choice.

      Zerocovid allows everything else a shot to make money. No virus in ireland, meaning all of it, the mitigation measures are relaxed. But its always on guard.

      Delete
  31. B.A.C 12,
    There is a self interest motive for everyone when you get right down to it. I don't think the end justifies the means here. Having said that I understand where you coming from. The main thing for me is to have total obedience to any suspension of aviation etc ultimately would require a level of police state, fuck that to put it bluntly.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. They aren't popular but nephet on RTÉ news at one just there at some Oireachtas committee talking about aviation and the European traffic light system.


      It's only a recommendation for someone coming through airports to self isocate.


      It's daft. Iam in Dublin. There are check points on routes into wicklow but I can get on a plane in and out.

      Holahan, again unpopular, in the papers today saying that during the summer 1/4 of new cases came from travel. They kept that under their hat.

      We are surrounded by water, the virus can't swim, we are in another 'some industries are to big to fail situation'. That is why we are going for a living with the virus strategy instead of zero covid.

      But the argument being pushed is open up v living with the virus

      That's my conspiracy rant anyway and it's truth.

      Delete
  32. What Larry said a few comments above. it get's my vote. If anyone bothered to read the script that is being play out, you'd see it too.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My reply to Larry applies to you Frankie. You ceased to be funny a long time ago not did your kindred arseholes like Farage, Trumpo#, Le Pen, Orban, Bolonosarion etc.

      Delete
  33. I'm in the novel position of disagreeing with Larry and agreeing with Steve R. Covid visited my family, and almost deprived us of a much loved (relatively young, relatively healthy) member. Other relatives contracted it and were fine.

    Cummings is a despicable POS, but it is worth pointing out that the course of action that he took wasn't dangerous to him - just to others. And I doubt he would have visited elderly relatives of his whilst he was contagious.

    I think what is really at play is something that no politician will actually admit, but that is nonetheless deeply important, and is also why I support lockdowns and restrictions.

    My relative was "lucky" in that he was hospitalised at the beginning of the second wave. I was talking to one of the doctors and I asked about capacity. She said that they "hadn't had to take the decision to deprive anyone of an ICU bed based on capacity yet".

    Had I suspected that my relative was being denied life-saving treatment because of capacity issues, I might have been sanguine, reflected that he had lived to the cusp of retirement age, and that it was right that someone else had a chance to life. Then again, I might not have. And if there were several dozen of us, all in the same boat, suddenly, it isn't an individual dealing with something, it's a group of people Hell bent on saving their relative.

    The NHS is one of the building blocks of our society. If it starts to fail, if people are dying because there are no ICU beds, if people are dying at homes because ambulances are overrun, it's the first step to a form of anarchy. There's a saying that we're three square meals away from anarchy, and I believe that.

    If the NHS stopped functioning, people get scared, and people get angry, and scared and angry people are unpredictable, and difficult to deal with. Particularly with a police force decimated by Tory austerity, and further hammered (like everyone else) by Covid-19.

    We are, all of us, interconnected.

    The first lockdown kept the NHS from breaking point, and also gave them space to research treatments, work out what works and what doesn't. Which is one of the reasons fatalities are statistically lower now in the second wave.

    Economies bounce back - some bereaved individuals and families don't.

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    1. Well said.

      There was two friends of the family died with it last week. they were old but not idle. Everyone dies but if time of death is avoidable I think the after taughts are rational and not just emotional.

      Real politic quote from the doctor.

      Economies adapt as well but they aren't mindless what ever the dominant ideology argues, governments make choices, its not a neutral observer.



      Delete
    2. Larry Hughes comments

      Brandon Sullivan that is all hunky-dory if you buy into the pandemic narrative to begin with, I don't. You pointed out yourself the hospital staff told you there was no pressure on ICU beds. Basically even after decades of Tory sabotage and austerity the NHS handled the nasty Covis19 form of Flu. The first lock down was triggered by 'modelling' which proved wildly wrong. It was fantasy island data put into a computer to give the results that a worst case scenario would bring to the UK. That never happened. So we locked down on a computer game result that had no bearing on real data or the real world. Now they are using modelling again for lock down two. It is horseshit. I am sorry to hear you had an ill relative but happy to hear the hospital rectified the problem. Are you certain it was Covi19. A wee lad died of heart attack in Derry last week and they slapped covid on the death cert and his family aint happy. BTW I would also wish anyone ill from cancer a full recovery. But I don't advocate locking down the planet because they may die. WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE for fuck sake. Lock downs won't change that. Let the gymps and pussies hide in their boxes, I will be having a jolly fucking Christmas. If you check annual deaths there's no difference in any other year. Check it out.

      Delete
    3. Cases rise and fall though don't they. So beginning of the second wave late September, October low figures in icu and climbing, fits in with the Pandemic narrative doesn't it, doctors comments are hardly a big challenge.

      A fairly restrictive mitigation strategy in effect here. What are tallies like in jurisdictions with out restrictions. How are pussyless countries doing?



      It will be a different Christmas this year I think. Stuck in the house all day. Dam you covid.


      Delete
  34. @ Larry

    The point I was making is that they were anticipating being at capacity, but weren't yet, and the Irish News confirmed that they had reached it last week. There were no ICU beds left in Belfast. That means that medical staff will likely have to decide who has the best chance of recovery, and to allocate them a bed based on that.

    It was 100% Covid. He was healthy, working, and returning from a trip to Dublin when he was taken ill. And it isn't rectified: he just isn't going to die because of Covid in the immediate future, but there are severe health problems and his immediate family are going to be impacted.

    If you don't believe politicians (and that's understandable), then speak to medical staff. It's a nasty cold for most people - until it isn't. And the lasting impacts aren't really known.

    But anyway - the main point of my comment was that a nation's health service being overrun is destabilising, and destabilised society is a dangerous one. My hunch is that this (reasonably valid) fear is the main driver behind restrictions and lockdown.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Slovakia mass tested 2/3rds of its population over the weekend to avoid a lockdown. Could be one to watch. Population just under 6 million people. If it was known exactly were the virus is, individual or localised lockdowns.

    Objections would be contientious objections to mass testing probably but on paper it's interesting.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Larry

    That young lad in Derry died with Covid 19
    Whether he's counted in the statistics as having died of Covid 19 is almost irrelevant, almost irrelevant insofar as its only the excess in all cause mortality which gives a true picture of the impact of the virus
    I've heard other similar facile comments about collecting data from admissions to hospitals ... situations like where someone with a broken toe is tested for Covid 19 and people critise that too
    Of course they must be tested and counted
    Not to test them would be reckless. Otherwise there'd be countless opportunities for cross infection in a medical setting
    Can you imagine the outcry about that?
    And not to record the data would be to deprive the epidemiologists of important information, information useful in determining the spread of the virus and necessary for updating the R number

    Its not true that there's no overall increase in mortality
    There's an increase of 1% in all cause mortality across Europe
    And that's with all the various restrictions
    If we hadn't had the restrictions that increase would certainly be much higher
    If we relax restrictions that figure will spiral

    People may think that a 1% increase is insignificant but as outlined above Sweden's path has lead to extra deaths ... somewhere between 900 and 4,500 depending on whether you compare data from 2020 with 2019 (4,500 increase) or with 2018 (900 of an increase

    Finally Larry

    Assholes spreading conspiracy theories should literally (as well as metaphorically) be force-fed with their own shit

    ReplyDelete
  37. Quillers,

    Do yourselves a favour and read the script. What the world call Covid is basically a computer algorithm...

    Like I said, read the script ....

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is it worth anyone's while asking you for proof of your algorithm theory, Frankie?

      Delete
  38. Henry,
    I appreciate the numbers. But point remains the same they can't be validated or disproven because there wasn't enough of a counter measure to have a proper empirical study. I not even suggesting you're wrong but the fact your so confident in a field you knowledge is limited is confusing. Online people mocking epidemiologists is baffling. Everyone has to be heard, does it matter if individuals were right or wrong? Surely what matters is learning from any mistakes and trying to come out of this in the best shape collectively.
    You seemed more concerned about manipulating numbers, the numbers won't lie, the death toll, hospital admissions will remain the same whether you prove Larry wrong or not. The question is simple, will restrictions cause more deaths in the long term through ramifications of poverty, mental health etc. It's a valid question.

    ReplyDelete
  39. David

    I can only call it as I see it
    And I resent your statement that I'm "more concerned about manipulating numbers"

    That is patently untrue
    If I were intent on manipulating figures I would have left the Swedish comparative figures just between 2020 and 2019
    That figure shows an annual all cause mortality increase of aprox. 5,400
    To maintain integrity I also included a comparison between 2020 and 2018 which shows a lesser, but not insignificant increase of 1800 deaths
    I adjusted these figures by reducing them by the European average for all cause mortality of 1% (i.e. 5,400 - 900 & 1.800 - 900)

    As I've explained before cumulatively all cause mortality after HIV amounts to a 1% increase
    And that's over decades
    Post Covid 19 we have a European increase in all cause mortality also of 1%
    And that's just over a 9 month timeline
    And that's also with mitigation efforts

    And yes mitigation efforts will have consequences
    And those who fail to adapt
    Are going to experience the most pain
    And that's just too fucking bad

    However experience is a great teacher
    And when folk eventually hurt enough
    They'll learn to adapt

    (Conversation between you & I
    David is now closed)

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    Replies
    1. That is not in your gift Henry Joy to close the conversation!! David might close it by making a final comment and say no more after that. All you can say is that you are outta here!

      Should we be surprised that this piece was the catalyst for so many comments? Must tell us something.

      Of all months to try a dry one, I picked this one - now I am regretting it with the tight fight in the US presidential election.

      Delete
  40. Larry HUghes comments

    Henry Joy


    Keep wearing yer mask, especially in the shower. ALL gymps should be water boarded daily in my view. If someone has a skin rash that is non life threatening as Covid flu is 99 percent + survival rate, would the skin rash be the cause of death if I had heart failure? Keep swallowing the big load the media dumping into ya. There's a good gymp. lol

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    1. Larr=

      I sincerely hopew that you and none of your relatives contract and suffer the consequuences of the scientific illiteracy and paranoid nonsense that you spout on this forum. Dangerous rubbish that rightfully has gor David mIcke a long ovderdue ban from Twitte.

      Delete
    2. If 99‰ of people got covid at exactly the same time, what would happen?

      Delete
  41. Henry,
    If not manipulating then certainly cherry picking. If it's too fucking bad about people bearing consequences why would they bother conforming to your ideas of safety.
    Of course people will adapt, we're not talking gargantuan deaths ever way. All we're asking is the measures causing more harm than disease, I'm starting to think it is, impossible to prove at the minute but looks that way.
    If you want to end the conversation just don't reply, you don't need to be melodramatic about it.

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    1. They won't by the looks of it.

      People will give well wishes but if responsibility infringes on their freedom then fuck that.

      If anger could be directed at others not taking a hit perhaps something positive might happen. Down here daily cases are skipping down but the state has just signed up for some traffic light system with the rest of the eu. Importing cases. I doubt the idiots are even taking a bribe for it.

      Delete
  42. Larry,

    It's great to have you back LOL

    ReplyDelete