WBAI 99.5FM Pacifica Radio
New York City
11 July 2015
(begins time stamp ~ 27:25)
SB: And we're
going over to Birmingham to talk to Paddy Joe Hill. Paddy, thank you very much
for being with us.
PJ: A
pleasure, Sandy, thank you for inviting me.
SB: And as our audience should know, Paddy, you
were framed by the British government for a pub bombing you had nothing to do
with and you were in prison for sixteen years even though at the highest levels
of the British government they knew you were innocent. But now you're
taking the time to crusade for the Craigavon Two who are framed. Can you
tell us a little bit about their case?
PJ: The case is quite simple. It was the first
Catholic policeman to be killed in Ireland a few years ago. Two men were
accused of waiting on him coming out – he came out for a pizza or something and
they shot him. And the main witness – there's only one witness against them -
and the main witness - Gerry Conlon, God rest his soul, Gerry got me involved
in the case because he was over there and was championing the case and I went
to the appeal. And the witness' father came to the court and told the judges:
You can't believe a word that comes out of my son's mouth. My son is a
compulsive liar since from when was born and his nickname from when he was a
child is “Walter Mitty”. And on the night in question when he said he'd seen
them he was about fifty-sixty feet away from them. But on that particular night
he wasn't wearing his glasses. He had left his glasses at his father's house
and without his glasses he can't see more than eight feet – he's practically
blind – all he can see is blurs – and yet the court still upheld - went against
the appeal; they upheld the conviction. And of course, this is typical of the
British establishment. The one thing they hate is to be proved wrong. And
unfortunately for innocent people it takes ten, twelve, fifteen maybe more
years before they'll finally admit – and of course, over here in England at the
present moment in the UK the way it is, you're guilty until you can proved that
you're innocent. The presumption of innocence is gone – that's how bad things
are over here.
SB: Well Paddy, I think there's at least some
similarity to your case. In your case there was a horrendous IRA pub bombing
and there was huge pressure on the police to arrest somebody ~ anybody ~ and
they found you and your associates, your comrades.
PJ: Yeah, that's correct. We were going home for
a funeral in Belfast. James McDaid - I
grew up with James McDaid. And Gerry Hunter and Richard McIlkenney are related.
And of course we used to drink in Birmingham together when we met up
socially ~like, you know? But what you call it ... on the night in question two
bombs exploded in the city centre of Birmingham and two bars and the result was
twenty-one people were killed and a hundred and eighty-two people were injured
and in respect of that there ~ the police ~ the evidence against us was quite
simple - they said that they had arrested us trying to flee the country. Yet in
actual fact, five of us went to the police station of our own free will to be eliminated
from their enquiries. And we actually were!
Because I spoke to someone after I got out
of prison in about '94 who was in the police force, he was in T-14 the
Intelligence Service at home, and he turned round and told me – he said: On the
night of the Birmingham pub bombings we were asked for background information
on youse five and he says we told Morecambe Police and Special Branch to let
you go – that we knew all about you and that you were not involved in any
Republicanism or IRA activities and that was it. But of course when the police
arrived – I was cleared by the Morecambe Police at six o'clock in the morning.
And then when the Birmingham Police arrived that was it. They turned around and
told us right from the very beginning: (quote) “We know you didn't do the
bombings. We don't care who done the bombings. We've got you. That's good enough
for us.” And then he turned around and said: "We didn't pick you. You've been
selected." And he pointed at the ceiling and he said: "You've been selected by
members at the highest level of government and they gave us our orders." And he
pulled a bit of paper out of his pocket and he shoved it under my nose and he
said to me: "Read that, you little Irish b--. Look what it says there. Our
orders are that we are to get confession and convictions and that we are to use
any means that we have to to obtain them. Now we're covered all the way to the
top. You can have it the easy way". And the easy way for them was for us to
sign false confessions. And they told us that we didn't have to fill them out
because they would fill them out themselves – which they did! And they turned
round and told us that was the easy way. And then he made a circular motion
with his finger round and said: "the hard way is around the f'ing walls. "And
that was it. They played football with us and tortured us for next three days
you know?
And unfortunately, Sandy, the thing about it
was – at that it was the Bomb Squad we used to call them - and the Bomb Squad
and Special Branch had an informer in the Birmingham IRA. And on the Sunday
night they put our names up on the television before we'd even appeared in
court and the informer seen it and he went and got in touch with his handlers
and he told them: You've got the wrong people. And he made a detailed statement
and he gave the names of the two people who made the bombs, where they were
made and the names of the three people who came along and planted them. And
they had that information within a week of the Birmingham pub bombings. But
unfortunately by that time they had tortured and battered us so much they
couldn't go back so they just carried on.
SB: But Paddy, I the case of the Craigavon Two,
who are Brendan McConville and John Paul Wootton, as you said a police officer
was killed – a huge uproar – all over the press - they had to get somebody and
they had to get them quickly.
PJ: Of course they had to. And these two guys are
just two patsies. These two guys are completely innocent. I can assure you of
that, Sandy. Gerry Conlon would not have gotten involved in the case if he
thought for one second that they were guilty. And neither would I. But I'm a
million percent confident that these two men have been fitted up by the police
simply because they wanted a quick conviction. And that's what it's all about.
It's not about innocence or guilt – it's all about convictions. That's the way the British establishment is
going.
SB: Well, some things never change do they,
Paddy?
PJ: No, nothing has changed. In fact, the only
thing that's changed, Sandy, we've got an ongoing battle here in the UK:
there's a number of people that have been released over the last few years. A
young Irish boy from Dublin, Victor Nealon, and they had the evidence to show
that it wasn't him – they had the DNA evidence and everything - and he served
seventeen years. And he was released eighteen months ago. They threw him out of
the prison gates at six o'clock at night and they gave him forty-six pound
discharge grant and that was it. Nowhere to live, no social, work or nothing.
Nowhere to go. And of course now him and another young fellow, Sam Holland, who
served nearly nine years – Barry George who was convicted of the Jill Dando,
the TV presenter, who served nearly nine years - and we went to the Supreme
Court a few months ago and they turned round and said: Even though they've been
found not guilty they're not innocent enough to receive compensation.
SB: I want to come back to your and my late
friend, Gerry Conlon of The Guildford Four who, like you was framed. And like
the Craigavon Two, was framed. But Gerry I know did a very careful
investigation in this case.
PJ: He did
indeed, yes.
SB: He first said ... in the very beginning he
said: Look, what I know for sure is that they didn't get a fair trial. He began
with that, right? And then he investigated further and then he said not only
did they not get a fair trial – they're innocent. But Gerry didn't leap to that
conclusion. He came to it very carefully. He examined it.
PJ: Exactly! Gerry examined the evidence as he
always does and he spoke to me about it on the phone and he sent me some of the
paperwork and I came to the same conclusion. These guys did not get a fair
trial. In fact, they broke so many rules and regulations that is supposed to be
laid down but of course that is typical of the police – they just do what they
want. As I said, the only thing they're interested in is getting the
conviction. And they don't care whether you're innocent or guilty. As long as
they get someone for the crime they're happy. And unfortunately for innocent
people it takes years and years and years before they will - you've got to embarrass
them to get them to finally admit that they're wrong and that is a very, very
hard thing to do over here in this climate over here.
SB: And as you know better than anyone else you
cannot rely on the courts for justice.
PJ: Oh, definitely not. Definitely not. Courts
are the last place! The last thing that the courts want to admit is that the
lower court judges got it wrong. They always look after their own and they will
not go against them. Even if some people come in and said they done it - they
still wouldn't believe them - because they've already got a conviction.
SB: That is what happened to Gerry
Conlon.
PJ: Exactly! Look at Gerry's case. Joe O'Connell
and the three men with him, who were more commonly know as the Balcome Street
unit, when they were arrested, the first thing - they took them to four
different police stations and they held them in four different police stations
and they questioned them separately. And when they were asked: What was the
first operations that you carried out in the UK they turned round and told
them: You've got four innocent people in prison for the Guildford and Moody's
pub bombings. We done that. In fact, Joe O'Connell told them it was him who
actually threw the bomb through the window of the pub, The Horse and
Groom. And yet they got an appeal on
that on those grounds. When they went to the court of appeal the court of
appeal judges turned around and stated in their summing up: Yes. We admit that
you did not do the Guildford and Moody's pub bombings. We admit that in all
likelihood you've probably never, ever been in Guildford in your lives. But, we
believe that you might have known these men and knew what they were up to and
you didn't pass on the information. So they sent them back to prison for
another thirteen years!
SB: But now history seems to be repeating itself
with the Craigavon Two.
PJ: Exactly! Exactly! It's repeating itself all
the time. You know, they say they haven't learned much. Believe me, they have,
Sandy. They've learned how to cover up better. They have learned how to just
fit people up left, right and centre. And it's commonplace. Here in the UK we
have about two thousand people in prison at the moment that are screaming they
are innocent and nothing is done about it.
SB: And what you told me and what Gerry told me
was the only hope is if people speak out. Because if you just rely on the
courts, if you leave everything alone - nothing will ever happen.
PJ: Nothing would ever happen. Definitely not.
You know over the last couple of years I've been working with the relatives of the people who were
killed in the Birmingham pub bombings. I've been working with them to get at
the truth. And of course, as I keep telling people, we'll never get justice,
Sandy, never! They could never give us justice. But I'll tell you what: at the
very, very least the thing that we should have is the truth. And that is what they're hiding because in so
many of these cases it's people higher up who made the decisions and that's
what it's all about – protecting the people in very high places – it's all
about protecting reputations.
SB: Well you know, the Bible says the truth shall
set you free but the truth is very hard to come by.
PJ: It is over here – you better believe it!
Very, very hard! No matter how many witnesses and what have you, you have, they
just don't want to believe them. All they want is a conviction at the end of
the prosecution. And they're very, very successful at getting that. Very successful.
SB: Well, Paddy, thank you very much. It's always
a privilege to talk to you and I want to congratulate you for the work you do
not only for the Craigavon Two but for some of the other people who have been
unjustly convicted.
SB: We know that.
PJ: I know
what it's like to be landed in a prison cell and hoping and praying that
someone will pick up the banner and start shouting and screaming for you. And
for so many people in the prison system who are innocent they haven't got a
voice on the outside – they're more or less buried alive. But while we're alive
and my organisation is alive we will continue to champion their cause and to raise our
voices for them. And hopefully we'll get a lot more but we do definitely need a
helluva lot done in the judicial system in this country. It is rotten. Like I
said outside the Old Bailey on the fourteenth of March, 1991 when I got
released: Justice? They haven't got the intelligence nor the honesty in them to
spell the word justice never mind dispense it. They're rotten! And believe me,
they are!
SB: Well, Paddy, thank you very much.
PJ: Thank
you, Sandy, and thank you to all your listeners for taking the time to listen
to me.
(ends time stamp ~ 42:24)
"It was the first Catholic policeman to be killed in Ireland a few years ago. Two men were accused of waiting on him coming out – he came out for a pizza or something and they shot him."
ReplyDeleteIf that is the sort of level of Paddy Joe Hill's knowledge of the case then we can safely assume that his opinion is completely worthless.