Anne Owers's report commissioned by David Ford recently supported the use of electronic technologies to replace the full body strip search in the North’s prisons. She described the strip search as invasive and intrusive. Yet the situation in Maghaberry requires urgent attention if a solution to the current protest is to be found before the physical conditions pose a serious threat to the prisoners. This is no idle warning, quite the opposite; it is a statement of fact based on the clear refusal of the prison administration to honour commitments given in August 2010 in the form of an agreement. The independent facilitators, the prisoners and their families, all understood that routine strip searching would be ended in favour of a more humane procedure based upon the use of new technologies.
Electronic scanning devices similar to those used in Portloaise, were accepted as alternatives to the age old practice of full body strip searching. The agreement states:
NIPS will introduce a new search facility and revised search policy for separated prisoners. The new facility will be located within the Bush and Roe complex and subject to CCTV and audio coverage. It will incorporate a combination of the latest technologies which will remove the requirement for routine full-body searching of separated prisoners within the prison.
It is now clear the above is subject to conflicting interpretations leading to a breakdown in relations between the prisoners and the prison authorities. However, it is the strong contention of all the prisoners that there is no misunderstanding on this central issue. As far as they are concerned the agreement delivers an end to routine strip searching except in two cases: a) were a scanning device identifies something of an illegal nature on or secreted within a prisoner and: b) a search which is intelligence lead. Even in both these cases the agreement states that a full body strip search must be “carried out in a manner which is both sensitive and dignified.” Republican prisoners agreed to both exceptions to facilitate agreement. During a number of conversations with the facilitators we sought clarification on this and, on each occasion, they said they concur with the prisoner’s view on the matter.
Maghaberry is now at a critical juncture. Fourteen months have passed since the agreement was reached with little or no progress being made on the core issues of strip searching and controlled movement. Sadly, for reasons that are not entirely clear, the “prisoners’ collective” which successfully negotiated the settlement has dissolved to the detriment of all. The NIPS response to this has been to seize the opportunity to slow down the process of change to a snail’s pace, thus creating even greater discord amongst the prisoners. Like any predator the system stalks it’s prey ready to strike at the first sign of weakness. Clearly, the system is attempting to hollow out the agreement believing the prisoners have neither the strength nor the will to do anything about it. History shows that political prisoners, however few in number, should not be underestimated.
The resolve of the prisoners to see the agreement implemented in full is undoubted. They steadfastly refuse to accept a degrading strip search which they insist contravenes last Augusts’ agreement. Nor will the submit to a humiliating oral inspection, night checks, or any other procedures designed to undermine their integrity and self respect. As political prisoners they will not cooperate with a regime that attempts to rob them of their dignity. Therefore, the struggle for political recognition will continue until its successful conclusion.
Alec,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately SF have given up the ghost of supporting Republican prisoners, instead having their tongue firmly stuck up Peter Robinson’s arse. I am heartbroken (again) at the Republicans in the gaol not getting together. I go to every protest against prison repression and harassment of Republicans, so, I believe there are still a large number of people out there that support the prisoners.
If you support the use of violence outside prison, be prepared to accept it when locked up.
ReplyDeleteDave-
ReplyDeleteIf a prison officer [ screw ] supports the use of brit violence outside prison [ iraq / afganistan]
then they should be prepared to accept it when they lock people up-
its your argument-
Dave,
ReplyDeletethat is a narrow-minded view as State violence extends beyond the walls of prisons.
Alec 30 years after the ending of the Hunger Strikes which claimed the lives of 10 brave Republicans the British penal system is still abusing Republican prisoners and denying them the rights those men died to attain.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it sickening that so called Republicans who sit in Stormont claim that the justice system is in the hands of 'Irishmen'? Raymond McCartney even recently had the gall to refer to Maghaberry as 'our prison'.
Yet what have the Shinners done about the conditions in 'their prisons'? Sweet FA!! Instead on the 30th Anniversary of the Hunger Strikes ending we hear they have instead agreed, perhaps with a slight nod of submissive agreement, to the DUP rewarding those very screws who gave over 40 years to abusing Republican prisoners with massive payoffs. In all likelihood even abusing those ten who died!
Forget about McGuinness hinting at meeting the Queen or agreeing that certain actions of the IRA could be termed as 'murder' that's no longer surprising!
No what turns my stomach is that those in SF who would claim to be Republicans know that McGuinnes presides over a system that has Republican prisoners once again on a dirt protest for their rights and that he hasn't uttered a word of protest about the reward given to screws never mind demanding that the misdoings of 'his screws' is put to rights by the real masters, the Brits!
Yes they know yet they keep their heads down.
Maybe their heads are bowed in embarrassment at not leaving McGuinness to his traitorous ways?
Att Dave You could have just written 'A hit & run screw is in the house and his name be Dave the one synapse, gutless wonder'
ReplyDeleteAbuse of republican prisoners rights is a violent act whether actualised by perpetration of physical violence or perpetrated through games, intimidation & denigration. Psychological torture tactics... Games/pseudo resolutions and more games to wear down/break the prisoners...
Your accusation of violent resistance do your time blather & cop denigration/violation of human rights makes you a right maggot. Read what Dixie wrote.
In return for the RIRA putting their weapons away, all republican prisoners should be released.Same goes for loyalists .No prisoners, no problems.
ReplyDeletegive them great conditions and let them do their time in peace and comfort.
ReplyDeleteDave,
ReplyDelete“No prisoners, no problems.” I think you mean no paramilitary prisoners. There would be no jails if we had no prisoners.
You clearly demonstrate a categorical view that in your own words show there is a difference between paramilitary prisoners and the general population. I base that on your brief statement you also have a distorted view on the definition of violence.
I don’t think there is any law or by-law that states prison warders can beat and torture prisoners, that clearly makes them part of the problem and not the solution. I could understand them using excessive force if their lives were in danger but then again the same would apply to a prisoner.
Even if there were no paramilitary prisoners would that mean there would be no violence in prisons?
Larry,
ReplyDeleteYou should become a screw they could give you a nice title E.O entertainment officer that way you would have a captive audience to polish your comedy act on… though that might fall under torture.
That is a poor distasteful swipe at your favourite female political internee with all her comforts.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI don't think people like Dave are into peace and comfort unless it's for themselves of course.
Bet he's a born again Christian. Strange how that lot emerge in the most obscure places sort of like cockroaches.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI doubt even Larry would stoop that low or rather I hope Larry would not stoop that low.
Sorry Nuala,
ReplyDeleteI recall his hissy fit about the curtains and the "comforts" given to Mirian and I doubt I am mis-reading it.
Even if it is sarcasm it is in poor tatste and has no place on the article.
Just an observation.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI never read all of Larry's former comments in relation to Marian.
Having said that and having re-read his comment here I would say you were much more perceptive than I was.
If Larry thinks all is fine with Marian just because she has a few modern gadgets he is well off the mark.
Larry,
your stint in the Crum with the shite and whatever else included was a walk in the park compared to the gaol experiences of Marian Price.
Fionnuala + Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteI am not getting on any prisoners back. Prisoners today should be given all the comforts physically possible, there is no state of emergency or threat to the political status quo. Other than the one created by incarcerating people without charge or evidence. That is unjustifiable. But as ive said before people in general are tired of 'all that'.
In the circumstances, prisoners, [if they are to continue to be held-AND those who wish to kill security forces to re-ignite the war] should be held in comfort, not victimised and brutalised. Other than that,i, like the majority in todays Ireland, have more pressing concerns, no offence to the 'revolutionaries'.
Didn't take long for the heckles to go up guys....
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI can’t make heads or tails of your reply as it is full of contradictions.
If you are happy with the political “status quo” then I don’t see a need for your comments on the issues that seem to go against it.
I am not an advocate of militant republicanism or state violence. The various factions that continued to engage the occupation forces or in your words the security forces are more than well aware they are walking down a well-worn out path.
Correct me if I am wrong but would those factions not pose a threat to the status quo?
I digress as it was your original sarcastic remark and previous comments about prisoners that might suggest a “hell slap it into them” they get what they deserve backing up Dave’s posts.
I don’t recall prisoners demanding comforts and the notion of serving out their time in peace in a prison which by its own nature is a violent place would make the chances of serving time in peace slim.
The issue is not complicated either one supports the rights of prisoners or one does not.
I support the prisoners even though I do not agree with the worn out reasons they are incarcerated.
Prison reform is well overdue and that and not just for the “revolutionaries” (which is another snide remark) that would be inclusive of loyalist prisoners and the general population.
It’s is always sad when the heckler gets heckled.
Nuala,
ReplyDeletethe regime Marian endures is horrendous to me. It is psychological torture. Being on your own for a while is ok but not forever.
Tain Bo
ReplyDeletenot so much slap it up them as 'disbelief' they are involved in reading statements in public etc...i mean what's the point?
i'm all for decent conditions for all prisoners. I do notice ill health is prominent in the physical conditions of many prisoners. Are the PSNI on high alert for 'cripples' or is it the new religious conversion tactic?
Larry,
ReplyDeletejust when you think you cannot sink any lower you do.
Maybe you should pray the PSNI are not on high alert for absolute tossers, as your well up the list.
fionnuala
ReplyDeletenot tosser enough to run about bleeting, wringing my hands and grinding my teeth over highly exagerated and seemingly largely self inflicted and engineered prison difficulties. Been there done that. Read a book or two love by ex prisoners, ye might actually learn something rather than just regurgitating your own propoganda.
enjoy your day fionnuala and I and 99.99999% of Ireland will get on with ours.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteIf there was a tosser scale you would be off the radar.
'Been there done that'! somehow I don't think so.
Your gaol experience would have been considerably different to what those people are experiencing now.
As for Marian, could not even comprehend some of the experiences she has been through.
There is a huge different between disagreeing with an armed campaign and sitting making snide comments about prisoners.
Too be honest Larry I think some of your remarks are pretty pathetic.
larry hughes,
ReplyDeletethe current protest is the direct consequence of the NIPS failing to implement an agreement reached last August. In this context, it would appear the situation has been engineered by the administration rather than by the prisoners.
Whatever your experience of prison life, if you think the decision to protest is one that is taken lightly by prisoners then, you really are a fool. A day of living in your own shit and piss would be unthinkable for most, including yourself.
You say you are all in favour of decednt living conditions for prisoners but spend most of your time knocking those prisoners who struggle for such. The prison uniform, a demeaning and impersonal piece of garb, is no longer in use because of the sacrifices of republican prisoners in the past. Loyalist enjoy the same separated living conditions because of the scrafices of republicans.
Therefore, it is clear that republicans have been the motor for radical reforms in the system by their own efforts and willingness to force change.
If you are a former prisoner then you also enjoyed the same benefits of the backs of the men and women you are so quick to attack.
Alec and Fionnuala
ReplyDeletegood luck with your hobby..im sure it's not your own kids you are hoping to ruin with that oul gunk.
no offence.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI was quite unaware that “hell slap it into them” was incremental but following your repeated insults and sarcastic remarks against republican dissident prisoners you certainly add on more yet fail to elaborate on your reasoning process.
I shall digress momentarily as I am confused. You state you and the now well over exaggerated statistic of 99.999% of the people of Ireland have more pressing issues to attend. Minor point where can I locate this imaginary Ireland and who elected you spokesperson for entire imaginary country? Which are two separate countries?
Granted you well might be a busy man yet you seem to find time to engage in slurs, insults and sarcasm which in my view would contradict your more pressing matters? If you are content with the political status quo then why waste your time preaching at the .1% of misguided fools who regurgitate history and propaganda.
Again, I can’t make heads or tails of your reply. Your first paragraph once more is a clear attack on Marian.
Your words…”they are involved in reading statements in public etc...i mean what's the point? I am unaware of any other person being interned for holding up a statement.
Your second paragraph I have no idea what you are talking about. The recent health issues of Brendan Lilis? Health issues are nothing new in prisons.
Why would your PSNI force be on high alert for anything in your happy 99.999% utopian Ireland?
I shall reiterate my position and considering I am being honest and not reading out a statement but stating I support the rights of the prisoners.
I shall ask you a simple direct question even though you clearly protest and demonstrate you do not and prefer the old violent adage of hell slap it into them under a flimsy guise of your own disbelief or in my translation how could these people be so stupid.
Do you support the Non-status quo prisoners?
There is nothing wrong if you hold no support for them you are more than entitled to your opinion and decisions much the same should be respectfully considered that they also are entitled to their own opinion and belief system.
If you answer my question honestly with your obvious no then I see no need for your incoherent posts as they just do not insult the prisoners of today but by your own logic insult the entire prison struggle.
TainBo,
ReplyDeleteWe have been round the block with this one before, to the extent we should now know that hell has no fury like Larry when scorned.
fionnuala
ReplyDeleteim refering to protest and getting agitated by prison protests. And yes have been there and done that. Knowing what we now do about those conducting prison protests and their propogandists/liars in the past; i have no inclination of expending energy or believing anything much of what im told. Neither does the general public aparrently.
if all these prisoners are so ill perhaps they were extremely badly advised or downright thick to try reactivating a war?? just a thought.
Tain Bo
how many percent do you see thronging the streets on this issue? i'm not resposible for your illiteracy problems. you and fionnuala think anyone who doesnt see your side of things is attacking you...once a provo always a provo at heart is it?
i stand by my observations. you guys bash yer heads off walls all you like. i wont be falling for propoganda as easy in the future.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteNice one that was clever and funny but I am sure it will infuriate him and knock him even more of kilter we might get accused of psychologically bullying him. Unlike the prisoners he has the luxury and comfort of choice.
Honestly Nuala I don’t read his posts and hold no interest engaging a mental midget. I was interested to see if Dave would elaborate on his position and for no apparent reason Larry decided to take the helm with his ridiculous comment at least Dave showed a little empathy offering a trade whereas Larry once again had to outshine with his callous remark.
If he had not posted I assume my last comment to Dave would have been the end of the posts.
Alec sums it up best...
“A day of living in your own shit and piss would be unthinkable for most, including yourself.”
And Larry,
“If you are a former prisoner then you also enjoyed the same benefits of the backs of the men and women you are so quick to attack.”
You should actually read that line and try to understand it.
prison conditions have come a long way from 3 in a cell with piss-pots and a transistor radio for entertainment.
ReplyDeleteto my mind protests are being engineered by poltical midgets who think peoples emotions can be utilised for political gain ie dissident activity. I repeat, been there done that, so has the community.
I hope people like Corey and Price get let go home. I also hope Duffy gets off because he is being stitched-up AGAIN. But bellyaching about horrendous 'brutal' prison conditions isn't getting me all shook up...not in this lifetime again. Don't care if that doesn't suit you career complainers.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI asked a direct question I was waiting on your predictable song and dance routine. You have yet to clarify your position; you won’t as you never make sense.
I have read plenty of books and never feel smarter quite the opposite I always feel dumber.
Again do you support the republican dissident prisoners?
I don’t recall seeing the streets thronging during the Hunger Strikes?
I don’t think for Nuala there are times when I agree with her. I speak for myself and have no affiliation with any group.
If you could please excuse my semi-literate mind and defend your prisoner ridicule and your pet hatred of Marian Price I would happily debate your highly observant intelligent mind without sarcasm or trading pointless insults.
As for the percentage of supporters, I do not see the streets lined with counter supporters. Perhaps you could take up the standard and bring back hanging. So I assume out of sight out of mind is what you mean.
I will thank you as your inane ranting’s keep the issue going your anti prisoner voice is actually highlighting the issue and hopefully other readers who are not so aware will look at the issue.
Forgive my poor understanding of language and translation. The more you say the more ridiculous you sound.
It should not be much of a challenge for you as I am already at a vast disadvantage preferring to dwell in the mathematical world with the odd and rare sojourn into the grammatical world that should be a breeze for a well-read mind such as yours.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI believe there where two piss pots in the cells at that time and generally four people in a cell hence the need for mystery parcels tossed into the yard.
“to my mind protests are being engineered by poltical midgets who think peoples emotions can be utilised for political gain ie dissident activity.
You left out the “mental” part in political midgets!
Your first paragraph runs conflicting to your last I will assume you’re back peddling and selective prisoners in your opinion deserve special treatment sounds a little like a wee bit of your own faulty engineering hinting at propaganda and a halfhearted support for dissident activists. Confusing and contradicting so hell slap it into the prisoners who do not make your list
You certainly sound very defensive over an issue that supposedly does not affect you emotionally.
I am defending my support for the prisoners and not complaining odd enough you begin your post complaining about the horrendous conditions of 3 in a cell.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteDone the three in a cell and piss pots, it was a walk in the park.
Seriously though, I talk to prison friends at least once a week and I don't ever remember anyone saying, wasn't it awful when we were three to a cell. Or, wasn't it awful when the plastic pot was overflowing with just about everything.
You are only too aware of what is happening in Maghaberry, yet you choose to mock people for being on protest or simply for caring.
Maybe empathy is not the only trait you lack, your probably a bit short in the courage department also.
I think regardless of the views on the prison matter, the situation in the North’s jails is not one that should be allowed to continue. The NIPS is the one arm of the RSAs that has met with no reform. I know there are some people who have problems with the term political prisoners and even more so with the term POW, but the fact remains that change is needed and whether it is supported for political or humanitarian reasons, it is still worthwhile.
ReplyDeletepain-bo
ReplyDeletei support the prisoners having the best conditions possible. Do I support the dissidents? No, its all a waste of time. I do not hate any prisoner. You choose to say that.
BTW our widescreen tv will be cleared with the HP company next month, i hear they are free in jail these days.
Larry, who paid for your TV viewing in the Crum? bet it wasn't you. According to your posts on poverty last year, you clearly stated, you have a tendency to shy away from paying for anything you can get for free.
ReplyDeleteBearing that in mind, does it not sound more than a little hypocritical, that you are using your own free loader theory to try and be scathing of prisoners who have absolutely no control over gaol furnishings.
Perhaps you were bitten by one of those rabid hyenas? Could be one viable explaination for your latest rant. Failing that, you could have hit the gargle again, well you have used that excuse on other occassions when your posts over stepped the mark.
This discussion is rapidly becoming a slanging match. I would like to say that I support the right of republican prisoners to have political status and decent treatment. Furthermore, it does seem that some republican prisoners are still being harassed and mistreated by prison guards. This must stop and I would give my full support to human rights activists who are trying to highlight these abuses. However, I also think that it is hypocritical of armed republicans to demand these rights when they would probably torture and kill a captured British policeman or soldier. What's more, dissident republicans won't accord the people of Ireland the right to reject war and accept the status quo. Sometimes I feel that this type of republicanism is as deluded as unionism.
ReplyDeleteAlfie,
ReplyDeleteI agree there is no need for armed resistance to British rule that path is worn out and a dead end. Sooner, rather than later their leadership may well accept the ineffectuality of fighting a lost cause.
The militant threat goes against the will of the majority the only viable future they have is to disarm and enter into the political arena.
On the subject of what they would do if they caught a soldier or cop you are probably correct.
On saying that the British government is not exactly guilt free when it comes to summary execution most notably the daylight executions of 3 people they could have detained at any point before they entered Gibraltar or after.
I am not saying two wrongs make a right unfortunately it is the nature of the beast and the environment we politely term the troubles.
Your contributions are always interesting and reasonable.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteYou have me beat all I can do is wish you many happy hours with your TV. I don’t watch the telly.
Good luck with your education and I am not being sarcastic saying that.
Pain Bo
Tain Bo.
ReplyDeleteBBC2 11pm The Plantations of Ulster documentary. You can watch it in my house with surround sound and a feed of stew. All courtessy of FF and the IMF. Studies going well.
Fionnuala
play nice now...meow!
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteMy gut instinct is to sympathise with armed republicanism and to oppose the British presence in the North. However, given that the vast majority of the people on this island are more opposed to armed republican campaigns than to the British presence itself, not to mention the fact that such campaigns are very unlikely to succeed even with popular support, I cannot in good conscience support them. That does not mean I am under any illusions about the British record. The facts of the matter are that the RUC beat civil rights marchers off the streets and turned a blind eye to loyalists burning nationalists out of their homes. Indeed, there are allegations that some RUC/B Specials were themselves involved in the pogroms as well. Then when the British Army did become involved, regiments such as the Paras ran a reign of terror in the areas they patrolled, regularly assaulting and sometimes killing civilians. As Liam O'Ruairc points out, a majority of those killed by state forces were unarmed civilians. Then there was collusion with loyalist paramilitaries and torture of republican prisoners. So pardon me if I retch every time I read the Sindo brigade portraying the British security forces as doe-eyed pacifists and the IRA as sectarian baby-killers.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteWho is engaged in the slanging match? A frank exchange maybe but hardly a slanging match.
You say you support the rights of prisoners to be treated decently but at the same time you find it hypocritical.
Prisoners of war are just that irrespective of the alleged political offence.
There were plenty of RUC/PSNI and British soldiers who murdered, tortured and mutilated innocent civilians and they did not even see the inside of a court let alone a prison.
There has been a massive campaign on going here since 1976 which has been underpinned by the policy of normalisation and criminalisation.
I seriously cannot believe the amount of people who have bought into this.
And then you wonder why armed resistance continues.
Alfie
ReplyDeleteFionnuala sometimes reads like Catherin Lynch single lady...but she boxes and moves more like Rinty Monaghan. All in the best possible taste.
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteThere is no slanging match I believe when words get a bit heated we tend to lose focus on the issue and concentrate on the subjective which is understandable.
I also believe that fear of the thought police and the new regime that has reinforced British rule has been more than effective in silencing people (in more ways than one) displaying support for the dissident prisoners comes with the label of war mongers and anti-peace.
Objecting to State violence is unacceptable to the PRM as they actively assist and promote the occupation forces to hunt down and dismantle any dissident activity regardless if it is peaceful or militant.
I believe PSF have an open agenda against their former comrades in arms as they view the dissidents not as a threat to peace in Northern Ireland but as a threat to their dominance in all things republican.
I cannot see any reason for the party that gained its political legs from the prison struggle and now use the term peace conveniently to distance the party from the violence that brought them the respectability and position cannot or will not use their position to expedite and insure a peaceful resolution to the prison issue.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteI assumed you were talking about combatants and summary execution.
I pondered on the question would the PRM have taken British prisoners.
We shall never know I assume if they had the facilities I would like to believe they would have.
Larry,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the offer but me and the telly fell out ages ago but an aul bowl a stew I wouldn’t turn my nose up at.
Nuala,
ReplyDeletePerhaps it was not my place to make a comment about the tone of the discussion, but, by the same token, I'm not sure if calling Larry a tosser and suggesting that he is a drunken free-loader actually adds anything to a debate on republican prisoners' rights.
I don't find it hypocritical of independent human rights activists to demand decent treatment for prisoners, but it is hypocritical of armed republicans to demand rights that they would not accord to their enemies.
To be sure, British security forces behaved appallingly at times during the conflict, but that does not give republicans the right to do likewise.
Moreover, you complain about normalisation, but isn't that what most Irish people want? Armed campaigns are deeply unpopular and totally ineffective, so, yes, I do wonder why armed resistance continues.
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteYou have as much entitlement as the rest of us to point something out which you think is in bad taste or deviates from the thread of the discussion.
However I don't think I did. I think Larry set the tone and I responded, more grounded and reasonable people could probably rise about such comments unfortuantely I cannot.
Alfie, political status is a status which is accorded to prisoners of war. It is not conditional on an act or dictated by some airy fairy belief of how war should be conducted.
The Brits blew the heart out of Germany during the second world war and they were accorded political status, even the ones who were reponsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent civilians.
If you read the Irish Jurist political status on line. You will read that, beginning with ODonovan Rossa, Irish Republican prisoners have had to battle through the most dehumanising conditions accorded to any group of prisoners by any enemy for their political recognition.
It was hard fought and won by Billy McKee in the early 70's only to be snatched away during the new think criminalisation and normalisation policies. It was hard fought for in 81 and we are all only too aware of the eventual outcome of that one.
You are right normalisation is what people want, but we never got it. Instead we got a papering over the cracks exercise and now the cracks are becoming all too apparent.
Normalisation in the North of Ireland is based on the theory, tell the people things are normal for long enough and eventually they will believe it. Just as the criminalisation policy was succesfully based on the theory tell people these politcal dissenters are criminals and they will believe it.
A few Irish street signs and a shared puppet government did not bring about normalisation, sadly Maghaberry is proof of that one.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI think we all know at this stage we have remain with in the guidelines of acceptablity dictated by the 'Quill'
At times Larry likes to crank it up a bit to generate a certain reponse and sometimes some of us oblige.
Sinn Fein could not exist in it's present from if it were not for the thought dictates and social control.
Referring back to Alfies comment that people have a will for normalisation.
How can we ever experience anything remotely like that when we are so controlled.
Where I live it is scarey. Sinn Fein have this area sealed tighter than a drum. Not for the peoples benefit but to ensure nothing unfolds unless they give the nod.
Sinn Fein control all community activity i.e. housing allocation, community job allocation. To the extent, they actually demanded a worker in West Belfast be removed from his job as he was allegedly linked to 'dissident activity'
No Republican even on their worst day could ever have envisaged what we were sold here and people call this normalisation.
You have,nt seen the half of it Nuala,wait tlll the boyos from Thatcher house start implementing their tory master,s cuts here and try telling us if it wasnt for them and Peter the punt things would be a lot worse.
ReplyDeleteTain Bo,
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that it was the IRA's policy during the War of Independence to release Crown forces who surrendered to them or to exchange them for captured volunteers. I mean, isn't that why there was such controversy over what happened during the Kilmichael ambush?
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteThe ambush at Kilmicheal is controversial and was at the time even more so as the British could not believe or accept that the well-staged military ambush wiped out two lorry loads of what was then considered their most elite forces.
I don’t think their outrage was anything less than shock that elite war hardened veterans of World War 1 were “decimated” by a band of irregular fighters. Not that every soldier in the convoy had served time at the front.
It is a bit on the hypocrite side as prior to the ambush the British forces delivered summary execution at Croke Park to non-combatants as indiscriminate reprisals against civilians.
I mention the Croke Park massacre with reason at such close quarters I wonder under the pandemonium how long would it have taken for each of the cold blooded murderers to hear and obey the order to ceasefire.
The same could be applied at the ambush sight as it was extremely close quarters. Did the second lorry of the convoy yell out we surrender and even if they did, could the ambushers hear it over the din of the fighting.
The most appalling act of cold blooded murder was carried out when one of the two surviving soldiers sought help at a house if I recall correctly although badly wounded and clearly no threat to anyone he was executed by the IRA and dumped in a bog.
The aftermath leading to some very unorthodox tactics of taking unfortunate civilian hostages in convoys, more reprisals against civilians not to mention martial law and a complete change in strategy against the IRA.
The shockwave sent through the mighty British to the extent that they feared for the prime minister barricading Downing Street which must have been an unusual sight for the locals.
We only have to look at Derry and bloody Sunday clearly the white flags of surrender meant nothing to the blood thirsty Para’s.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteI would like to think that, in any war, the immoral conduct of one's enemy is never reason enough to abandon one's own principles. Incidentally, I have fewer moral problems with executing captured soldiers as I have with torturing them. I am inclined to believe that there is never any justification for torture. This judgment is based on my own experiences of physical and pyschological pain. Pain, in my view, is the worst thing in the world and so the goal of human beings ought to be to minimize pain as much as possible. So the claims that republicans tortured people are very troubling for me.
My great-grandfather fought for the IRA in the War of Independence and he found it hard to admit to my father that he had killed anybody. He would just say that he had men in his sights and that he fired at them. The idea that he had taken human life seemed for him to hard to bear. That said, I do believe his cause was worthy and his war justified.
Nula,
ReplyDeleteI catch your drift as we have been down the same street before with Larry. In fairness to Anthony it is his blog and accordingly he should step in when he feels people are over stepping boundaries.
I don’t object to Alfie adding his view on the posts though I do consider it unfair that he singled you out. I didn’t consider it a slanging match and took nothing personal when Larry pointed out my literacy problems and other sarcastic remarks that have nothing to with the issue.
I hold fast on my own principle I cannot separate my support for the prison struggle then and can see no difference in it now as it is the same issue. I bowed out of questioning Larry as I know that he won’t answer or elaborate his position or when he does it is fused with inconsistency and sarcasm.
As for the argument of peace and stability being the wish of the majority it is extremely trendy today. The irony and weakness of that argument is that the exact same majority wished for the same thing but dared not speak out against the then “normality” of Para-military rule.
Hypocrisy is the rule of thumb and the peace accord is fancy window dressing for the politicians.
All I can say to that “Mr. Robinson and Mr. Adams tear down those walls.”
Hardly a sign of progress when two communities are still separated by incorrectly named “peace walls” if things like that are normal then who am I to disagree with the “new status quo” which looks identical to the old status quo.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteIt has been a bit loud but that happens and better to be loud than not heard at all. I think as Nuala points out the regulars here tend to know when to pull back. For the most part if sharp exchanges don’t take place on obituaries I am fairly relaxed about it.
Alfie,
I am just reading through Michael Walzer’s 1977 work on just and unjust wars. He addresses some of the issues raised by you. I think the moral questions always need asked. It keeps people thinking even if they do not always act accordingly.
Nuala,
The social control you talk about is very real. We tend to forget about it when we move out as we don’t feel it breathing down our necks. But as a former prisoner was saying to me last night the issues raised by you on social control and the marginalisation of alternative opinion are forever present on the ground in those areas. He says it is impossible to live there and not see it.
I also think we can never avoid what you call the 'airey fairy' notions of how war is fought. Wars in my view should always be made harder to justify rather than easier.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI would be concerned if things didn’t get a bit rowdy now and again. That would go against the one freedom we have self-thought.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeletethat seems a good way to look at it
Alfie,
ReplyDeleteI would assume in the heat of battle ethics morals codes of conduct and decorum would be replaced with the built in instinct all humans share self-preservation.
On the subject of torture we could bunker down for lengthy debate on its practice and use the world over. It is both an industry and a science so to speak as it employs “interrogators” the term is palatable to society as few want to believe torture still exists in our modern world.
The term “water-boarding” sounds like one of those new extreme sports rather than the scientifically established method of inducing the fear of drowning. Torture from the simple to the more sophisticated has a dual role. One it is used to extract information from enemies of a State and two it sends a disturbing subliminal message to society that if you challenge the status quo you could end up on the wrong side of a desk.
I would be foolish and in a clear state of denial, if I said republicans did not use torture. I would assume the disappeared may well have been “interrogated” before being executed.
I can only speculate on the horrific reasoning for disposing of the bodies other than to strike fear within the nationalist community by saying not only shall we execute you but we shall inflict the most severe mental anguish on your family by holding a dead body hostage in a secret grave.
I can understand and accept their position on executing “informers” though to torture families and deny them the right to bury their loved ones is a sadistically sick punishment I can find no reason to inflict that mental torture on families.
I am not saying the volunteers who took part in the executions derived any sadistic pleasure from it as they were following orders. I would question the logic of the leadership who issued the order to further humiliate the executed by disposing of them in secret graves.
Torture comes in many forms but its formula all equates to the same thing regardless if it is a screw putting a sly boot into a prisoner or a government silencing detractors it is a part of human history and will continue to be so as I said it is both an industry and a science.
Every time I click on the Quill, the first thing I read is the quote by Carl Jung.
Perhaps when we face our conscience we are looking at our greatest friend and foe and the one thing we really have little control over the human mind.
I will attempt to answer the rest of your post later today or tomorrow.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteGood point about torture.
Extreme sport is exactly how water boarding sounds. How they make something so vile sound so innocuous.
I think since the Scap outing there is now a greater acceptance that people were tortured by the IRA. I believe there were serious efforts to prevent it but it happened nonetheless.
Found your take on the disappeared worth further consideration. I think the reason you provide for it is accurate. Most of us take the view that they did it for other reasons, avoiding scandals etc. But your argument makes a sense. It does take a particular type of ruthlessness, never used in the service of anything good, which would keep a family tormented for years. And those capable of that type of ruthlessness would be capable of and willing to apply it in other situations.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI have been mulling over the issue and will have more free time tomorrow to try to put a reply together. It is a very touchy subject but as I said most people like to avoid the idea of torture existing.
I could mention Castlereagh and the torture of both republicans and loyalists… and probably get a response.
The subject of the disappeared much like the subject of the Shankill Butchers I am not so sure people want to look further into things like that.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI am inclined to agree with you on this more so on the serious effort to prevent it that may have well spared other families the same fate.
“I think since the Scap outing there is now a greater acceptance that people were tortured by the IRA. I believe there were serious efforts to prevent it but it happened nonetheless.”
The point you make about Scap could also have a correlation on the subject it would not be a far stretch of the imagination to suggest that some low level informers may have met their end as a cover up protecting the more senior spies within the PRM.
I cannot find any reason for inflicting this form of punishment on the families of the disappeared. The issue has more questions than answers.
The only logical reason I could see is the psychological fear factor aimed mainly at the nationalist people and perhaps more so at the members of PIRA/INLA.
As I stated I can understand the position of executing spies/informers I am curious as to what level of information the disappeared could have passed on that would warrant their double punishment.
Punishing the families leans towards the sociopathic there is no justification for that.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDelete‘it would not be a far stretch of the imagination to suggest that some low level informers may have met their end as a cover up protecting the more senior spies within the PRM.’
I would say this is a certainty.
I guess an element of sadism and perverse pleasure was derived by the architect of the disappeared. A person would need to be cruel beyond reason to carry on torturing those families for decades on end.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteThat would raise a question as to what role the person or persons hold today within the reformed republican movement (silent enforcers?)
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteIt just adds a dark side to the republican struggle which with each passing year is eclipsing whatever bright side it laid claim to. What was done to the families of the disappeared and the hunger strikers reveals a dimension to the struggle that any shred of decency would recoil at.