David And Goliath

An intellectually daunting task it definitely is not to work out why Martin McGuinness wants discussion of his past to be ruled off limits during the current presidential election campaign. Yesterday’s confrontation, caught on camera, between him and David Kelly made for powerful television. It required no extra ingredients to merit the description ‘dramatic.’ The dramatis personae were pitched against each other in a real life drama played out in full public view; one determined to make his own personal case for justice, the other, while professing to agree with him, determined to cheat him out of it.

Looking at the incident from where I sat the presidential candidate was caught unawares by what he thought was a member of the public seeking an autograph only to be confronted by a son bearing a photo of a father killed in the course of an IRA operation in 1983. McGuinness if he faltered did so only fleetingly. He did not lose his composure, but he would have been better served by losing his arrogance.

His haughty dismissal of the man’s heartfelt assertion that he was a member of the IRA leadership at the time an Irish soldier, Private Patrick Kelly, lost his life showed a glimpse of a man who was once president of the IRA’s army council rather than a man who aspires to be President of Ireland and ‘titular head of the Defence Forces.’ The dismissive response ‘how do you know?’, when everybody else knows, might go down well when thrown at a political rival, even a journalist. It courts contempt when cynically employed against someone seeking to unravel the circumstances surrounding the death of his father.

David Kelly put Martin McGuinness on the back foot. He was forceful, persuasive, passionate, scathing, and having seized the initiative never ceded it. The Sinn Fein man, with decades of experience in evasively dealing with allegations of this type, rolled out the answers but they were flat and unconvincing. Even where people believe he has good reason for not revealing his past, they might not be so understanding of his brazen dishonesty about it particularly when the deceit is wielded as a shield against the son of a man who in the son’s words died in defence of the Republic. At one point Kelly fired a riposte that McGuinness was a liar. McGuinness lied back that he wasn’t. It was a drama Franz Kafka could have written.

There seemed something harsh and disdainful in Martin McGuinness’s comment to David Kelly that his father’s death ‘is in the past.’ As if there is a death that is not. It was a vacuous truism stated to get by rather than resolve. The past it seems is to be a burial ground for some unwanted secrets but an open book for others. Some atrocities are to be addressed, others suppressed.

If yesterday’s exchange is a premonition of the presidency it is an ill omen. The Irish Foreign Minister Peter Barry once described the situation in the North as a ‘nationalist nightmare.’ A President ostensibly of national reconciliation facing allegations of ‘murder’ each time a foreign dignity attends the Aras would be a national nightmare, particularly if David Kelly and others decide to emulate the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo in Argentina and assemble once a week in Phoenix Park.

There is no easy way in which the Sinn Fein candidate can deal with the type of challenge witnessed in Athlone. The ‘stench of murder’ as one interviewer of McGuinness put it a fortnight back simply won’t go away. There might have been little in the way of personal unease but a sign of the political discomfort it has caused McGuinness was detectable in his return to the issue last night during a speech in Trim, described by the Irish Times as ‘an effort to deal with a serious public relations and political setback.’ McGuinness said ‘as a republican leader I have never and would never stand over attacks on the Garda Siochana or the Defence Forces.’ Just as he was never in the IRA post 1974, just as he never had a hand or part in anyone’s death.

Just as he doesn’t give one toss for people like David Kelly who are obstacles to be swept aside in the quest for power.

67 comments:

  1. McGuinness and Adams want the past to remain as the dark old days, where no one can see that it was they who were to the fore in sending others forward to fight.

    How can you be a 'peacemaker' if you were capable of urging peace and not war back when it suited?

    The old argument of the Unionists wouldn't have accepted Republicans back then is utter bollocks!

    When did they begin to accept Republicans? In 1994? In 1998?

    No, when they gave up everything Republican in order to be accepted; when they left Republicanism behind and accepted the Unionist veto over Unity.

    That could have all begun back in the 1970s; anytime after the Brits shut down the Orange State and brought in Direct Rule. After all isn't that what the Adamsites tell us the war was all about. Bringing down the Orange State?

    The fact is that the ballot box didn't contain any Sinn Fein votes in those days, then it didn't contain enough; therefore the armalite had to be raised above the ballot box, in other hands of course, until the time was right politically for the 'peacemakers' to emerge.

    The self-proclaimed peacemakers that is...

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  2. Hard to see what other way McGuinness could of handled this situation to be fair. If he did know the names of the IRA people involed from 28 years ago, how could or why the f*ck should he tell, like seriously.

    Incidents like these in the cold light of day are indeed tragic on a human level, but placed into context, we can't even be sure who fired the bullet that killed Patrick Kelly that day, Garda, IRA, or one from his own unit? Did Kelly fire off many if any rounds himself, and if so, perhaps he was having a ball, I mean maybe this was a rare opportunity at a bit of craic, and against amateurs into the bargain, who knows.

    What I do know is, these army boys couldn't give a flying f*ck what happened to me or anybody else on the other side of the border, too busy running off to the Lebanon to protect the little people there, while the Brits and their loyalists did what they liked back in Ireland, pathetic. So actually, I don't really give a toss myself if I'm honest, but what I do find nauseating, are all these w**kers in the media who pretend they do.

    'The ‘stench of murder’ as one interviewer of McGuinness put it'

    Give us a break you knobs!!!

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  3. Ruairi Joseph,

    it is not hard to see how he could have handled it differently at all. He need merely say 'nothing to say until a proper truth recovery process that ensures people are not prosecuted for activities during a war that is now over.' No one could accuse him of lying on the basis of such an answer

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  4. AM
    Don’t know if this would sound in any way more sincere, when faced with a hysterical and traumatised victim. This also implies that McGuinness, does indeed know the names etc of those involved, and if I was Kelly's son, this would only feed my frustration and anger.

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  5. Ruairi Joseph,

    it would sound no less sincere and a lot more credible. It would provide him with a solid foundation for not opening up. He would be a fool to open up and incriminate himself. His argument would be immeasurably reinforced by the Brits handling of Finucane. The problem is his current line of denial carries no weight, allows an advantage to all opponents, and makes it impossible for others to credibly defend his position. 'No comment' is a position that others could at least defend. It is legitimate to argue that he cannot reveal in such a one sided circumstance.

    David Kelly sounded far from hysterical and traumatised. That is what makes his position forceful.

    It is not an easy corner to be in. I think it could be handled much better than it is. Why the urge on their part to deny the IRA? Just say 'can't talk about it.' There is a whole raft of good reasons for not talking about it that people would sympathise with.

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  6. Ruairi Joseph
    "If he did know the names of the IRA people involed from 28 years ago, how could or why the f*ck should he tell, like seriously."

    Your response sounds like straight the Sinn Fein school of how anyone dare use our statements against us. Maybe your not old enough to remember but the same Martin stood on the steps of his beloved Stormont and asked all right minded thinking people to report these “traitors” who are murdering his defence forces to the same PSNI that he himself said should be banished to the past, so the task of giving up the names of other “traitors” and now as he calls them murderers should not cause him any discomfort at all
    Does a man who claims to be a republican want to be a member off the British Parliament and the President of Ireland ,I cringe when he is being grilled because I feel he wants Section 31 to drop on his head .Please don’t reply by saying the RUC and the PSNI are two different entities

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  7. AM

    Take your point that he could handle such questions better, although I doubt if any answer will prove satisfactory. What is it that this man is after? "No comment" as you suggest, or the preferred "I don't know" or "it wasn't me" either way it's not the truth.

    Personally I think what should have been said was...

    "Your father was part of an outfit that patrolled the border in support of the UDR and Paras, dug up arms dumps and returned young volunteer soldiers back into the hands of the occupation. Keeping in mind Mr Kelly, that this was about the time that young men were starving themselves to death under that same occupation, if your here looking for justice, it's already been served. So fuck off"

    The truth hurts and the middle of town isn't the place for it.

    Boyne Rover

    'Maybe you’re not old enough to remember but the same Martin stood on the steps of his beloved Stormont and asked all right minded thinking people to report these “traitors”

    Wasn't this just a few years back, and if I didn't remember, this would mean I am either an idiot, or a very articulate 3 year old little Sinn Feiner, which I can assure you I am neither. Just don't see the merit in attacking Sinn Fein for the sake of it, or because I no longer agree with where they have gone. Try to remain objective.

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  8. Boyne Rover

    On further reflection at least I am defiantly not a 3yr old little SF’er

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  9. Will be interesting to see if anyone brings a civil suit or private prosecution against McGuinness if he gets into the big job. Loss of a relative during his time as the Director of Terrorism whilst Chief of Staff of the Provos could make an interesting case.Its been well documented in a number of tomes and newspapers regarding his time on the Army Council so why the public denials about his membership of PIRA after 1974. Without the courage of his conviction to sue these "liars" in court to clear his name regarding these allegations why would anyone believe him ?

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  10. Ruairi Joseph,

    You are right, there is no fully satisfactory answer. It is all about damage limitation. And flat denials are less effective in that regard than ‘no comment.’ It is not as if anybody other than the odd groupie believes the denials, so he should respond with something that has a ring of plausibility to it. ‘No comment’ has an advantage over ‘I was not a member’ in that nobody can say the former response is a lie.

    He was never going to say in a million years what you suggest.

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  11. All lying aside. Why would a Republican want to be Ireland's version of the Queen?

    Surely McGuinness should be demanding that the money be put to better use in hospitals, education etc.?

    Who needs a highly paid hand-shaker anyway?

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  12. Ruairi Joseph
    I wasn’t attacking Sinn Fein I was responding to your “how could or why the f*ck should he tell, like seriously” statement that you posted. In my post I was trying to convey to you an answer to the question, He stated publicly what we should all do in the interest of our wonderful country report all crimes no matter who committed them to the PSNI or Garda, now as we all know his reaction to his own words are he knows nothing he never knew anybody and doesn’t want to know anybody, on reflection my advice to him would be try Barcelona for a holiday if I remember their was a guy from there who knew nothing also

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  13. all the lads and ladies in the race
    on primetime RTE 1 tonight 9.30

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  14. Impongo,

    we got four of the same thing from you

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  15. Marty just admitted on Prime Time that he was always a Stick!

    When questioned about the Green Book he said he joined the Official IRA in Derry and swore an oath to them. He then joined PIRA and didn't swear an oath to them....

    Feed the f-cker to the crocodiles in denial...

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  16. So according to Marty he left the IRA in the early 70s while at the same time he never actually joined them....Officially!!

    LO-fecking-L!!

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  17. Dixie,

    he was all soundbites. He is lucky Dana is there. She takes the bad look away from him

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  18. Mackers did that fool actually say, Blessed are the Peacemakers?

    Me and Peter are the new Morecambe and Wise....

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  19. Marty's losing a bit on top and not just common sense...

    Do you think he should shave the rest off and call himself Gandhi McGuinness?

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  20. Really laughed out loud watching that RTE prog. Marty said he was sworn into the "Official" IRA, then 3 months later he joined the "Provisional" IRA (his words not mine, Official, Provisional etc.), to duck the question about swearing allegiance to the "Republic". Seems he doesn't know what the Green Book is or what's in it now!

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  21. Let's hope some journalist/s out there can get their hands on the Sticks green book, to see what it says about the "republic!"

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  22. Ruairi Joseph
    Boyne Rover is spot on. If Marty can call on people in the north to tout on armed republicans, why not call on people to tout on the incident in which Patrick Kelly was killed? And, he could easily find out who was involved in the Tidey kidnapping (after all he and Gerry have a close working relationship with the IRA, don't they?). I have never, nor would ever, tout on armed republicans, nor call on others to tout on them, but the above mentioned duo (among others of their ilk) have!.

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  23. AM
    Never mind Dana, every time McGuinness is in trouble (answering questions of course) and mumbling and a-fumbling, that dick Norris keeps jumping in crowing that he's entitled to stand etc. He did it on the last prog too! Of course Marty is entitled to stand, but we don't need Norris to keep reminding us, maybe SF are giving Norris "backhanders".

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  24. Dixie,
    I was honestly going to say in my first post, that, if the presidential race and the micro DFM's job don't work out for him, he should seek work as an alternative comedian! He'd play to packed houses, he's fucking hilarious!

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  25. Anyone know where to get a sticky green book- Martin made that primetime reporter into a idiot in front of the nation- and after her wasting a week reading the Green book-

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  26. michaelhenry
    the only person McGuinness "made into an idiot" (as you call it) was himself. Do you REALLY believe all the guff SF come out with? To SF, I say, remember the old adage: you can fool some of the people...

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  27. michaelhenry,
    Marty would know where to get a Sticky green book, seeing as they swore him in, and apparently he never left them!

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  28. AM,
    Don't forget that when you line up with the hacks that attack Martin Mc Guinness and so readily quote your anti Republican venom in their articles, that to them, you and the bitter cronies that infest this site are seen as Murdering, Terrrorist, Scum aswell.
    Get a grip of yourself man, Myers quoting you to substantiate his drivel says it all.

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  29. Boyne Rover

    Let me be clear ( now I do sound like a Sinn Feiner ) if I had my way, McGuinness would be hung upside down in a cow shed awaiting sentence.

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  30. AM

    'He was never going to say in a million years what you suggest'

    No McGuinness was never going to say what I suggest is the truth, that's why kelly turned up where he did, and picked who he did to confront.

    What did he say? His father 'died in defence of the Republic' Yeah good one!!

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  31. Dixie,

    he did say it but she took the legs from under him.

    Michaelhenry,

    it was by no means his best performance. You must see that

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  32. Alex,
    I don't much care for the likes of Kevin Myers et al, but I have the right to say what I feel about any lying toerag on any forum. Remember a lot of people don't see MMcG as a republican, but as a constitutional unionist. You also have the right to go on to any forum and comment if you see something you don't like, but, do that instead of trying to insult and abuse people that have a brain and can think for themselves.

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  33. Belfast git
    For you own information and these are his own words while standing beside his buddy Pete and The Chief Constable he wants all right minded thinking people of Ireland to report all crimes to PSNI and Garda
    Ruairi Joseph
    Don't think the cows would like to see "a rogue Bull" hanging around their patch, if you don't understand the term ask a farmer

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  34. Alex,

    This seems such a confused comment. Who quotes any of us is not something we control nor should we worry about it. The alternative to it is self censorship. Who we choose to stand beside while shouting anti republican venom such as ‘traitors’ is something we can control. I prefer to be quoted by Myers (although I know of nowhere that he has quoted me) than to stand shoulder to shoulder with the leader of the British police in Ireland and the leader of British unionism in Ireland shouting anti-republican venom.

    As for the anti-republican venom in my own articles I have not found any. I have been critical of the republicans who carried out armed attacks such as those in Omagh and Lurgan but none other than you seems to think it venomous. In critiquing Martin McGuinness I direct my comments (you might say venom) at a British micro minister. That is hardly anti-republican venom.

    By bitter cronies I presume you mean those that disagree with you. And why do they have to ‘infest’ the site rather than ‘visit’ it? Do you seek to in some way to dehumanise them? It just sounds like the language of the BNP about people of different nationalities or colour ‘infesting’ their country. And do you not think that the DUP leader to whom Martin McGuinness serves as deputy views all who were in the Provisional IRA and INLA as ’murdering, terrorist, scum.’? Perhaps you can highlight where you have brought this to the attention of Martin McGuinness given that it seems to be the sort of thing that concerns you.

    All comments are welcome here including your own, but not all enlighten, including your own.

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  35. Boyne Rover,
    Yeah, I seem to remember that "right minded people" thing and the PSNI/RUC-Garda reference now, though at the time I was vomiting out of my ears and nose (as well as my mouth) when he made those "traitor" remarks while standing beside those two fuckers.

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  36. I don't suppose you can help really who it is that quotes you, although I do suppose it would be good to have said something intelligent enough or worth a quote to start with.

    I was quoted once to a magistrate while in his court on a drunk and disorderly charge, all news to me of course, couldn't remember a word of it. It seems I can go on a bit when I'm inebriated and my disdain at the RUC had became somewhat colourful, not to mention amplified.

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  37. Ruairi Joseph,

    something tells me I was in that club too.

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  38. Anthony,

    If I may by virtue of'infestation'
    share a few verses from Tennyson's 'Idylls of the King' with you and the other 'cronies' that came to mind while watching McGuinness' encounter with David Kelly.

    His honour rooted in dishonour stood,
    And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true.

    Brilliant piece of commentary by the way.

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  39. Robert,

    Thanks for expressing appreciation of the piece.

    Nice choice from Tennyson. So appropriate to the moment.

    This cronyism will have to stop!

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  40. Alex said; as Gandhi McGuinness's followers often do...

    "AM,

    Don't forget that when you line up with the hacks that attack Martin Mc Guinness....blah blah!"

    It is comical to hear them churn out the 'aligning yourself with anti-Republican journalist' tripe. I've had it myself in regards the Hunger Strike. However those firing it in our direction seem to forget that The same Martin McGuinness has aligned himself with everybody who ever made a living out of anti-Republicanism and has danced to their tune time and again like some pathetic down and out entertaining for a few pence.

    This is a man who has appeared at the Tory party conference, who has said he would meet the Commander-in-Chief of the Paras, Charlie and his ole Ma The Queen, who awarded them medals for their actions on Bloody Sunday.

    And the fools...the fools...the fools still believe he's some great Republican.

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  41. Anthony,

    McGuinness said ‘as a republican leader I have never and would never stand over attacks on the Garda Siochana or the Defence Forces.'

    The confident fear of the blameless culprit?

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  42. Anthony,

    "Get a grip of yourself man, Myers quoting you to substantiate his drivel says it all."

    Infact it says absolutely nothing because you were never quoted by Myers. Eilis O'Hanlon quoted you in a piece entitled,'The dead don't vote but are still important' that appeared in the Sunday Independent 9th October 2011.


    Alex,


    "The degree of one's emotions varies inversely with one's knowledge of the facts: the less you know the hotter you get." -

    If that does'nt compute try this for size -

    "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

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  43. McGuinness is misleading the young, says dead garda's sister


    By Michael Brennan Deputy Political Editor

    Thursday October 13 2011

    THE sister of a garda murdered by the IRA warned last night that young people were being misled by the "glossy campaign" of Sinn Fein's presidential candidate Martin McGuinness.

    Teresa Hand Campbell spoke out in memory of her brother Detective Garda Frank Hand (25), from Brideswell, Co Roscommon, who was murdered by the IRA in a post office raid in Meath in 1984.

    The Irish Independent reported yesterday how her brother Michael said his "family's blood" was on the hands of Mr McGuinness, who has admitted to having been a member of the IRA.

    Ms Hand Campbell said that anyone under the age of 25 had very little memory of what had happened during the Troubles. She said young people were being misled by Mr McGuinness's "glossy campaign".

    "Mr McGuinness may say he presents as a peacemaker and he refers to the Good Friday Agreement. I would challenge him that it's because of the goodwill and the decency of families like mine that the Good Friday Agreement was clinched," she told Shannonside Radio.

    Frank Hand was just 25 when he was gunned down while accompanying a cash delivery to a post office in Drumree, Co Meath in August 1984.

    Ms Hand Campbell said her parents, who are now both deceased, had been left in "total disarray" by their son's death in the IRA post office raid.

    "My mother and father would be visibly upset at any family gathering --that there were six, not seven, at the table," she said.

    But she said that her parents had remained silent about their loss because they believed there needed to be peace.

    Frank Hand married wife Breda, who was also a garda, just five weeks before he was murdered.

    "She discovered two weeks after his burial that she was pregnant. Frank never met his daughter. They had a lovely life ahead of them and suddenly it was stolen, it was cut short," Ms Hand Campbell said.

    Murder

    Three men were jailed for the murder of Frank Hand, but later released under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. The Hand family opposed the early releases and believed that the man who fired the bullet which killed Frank Hand was never caught.

    Mr McGuinness released a statement this week in which he said: "As a republican leader I have never and would never stand over attacks on the gardai or the Defence Forces."

    A spokeswoman for Mr McGuinness has said he has nothing to add to that.

    - Michael Brennan Deputy Political Editor

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  44. Impongo2-

    When all is said it should be noted that those members of the hand family who have talked to the press have said that they opposed the good friday agreement and they also oppose one of the peace process leaders Martin McGuinness-

    Why do some just talk in public about some of the dead [ there loved one ] just during election times- more power to the hand family for comming out in public now-God knows why yous waited-

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  45. Michaelhenry,

    it might be inconvenient for SF for the Hand family to come out now. The event is what most likely spurred them into it. The family sees itself confronted with a man who would seek to be President yet who they believe directed a campaign which took the life of their loved one in an area where IRA operations against garda were forbidden. That alone might make it 'murder' to use Martin McGuinness's term. This type of criticism is inevitable in campaigns of this type.

    A dignified and humble response is always better than blaming the bereaved.

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  46. michaelhenry,
    I see your great "presidential" candidate is behaving like a petulant schoolboy and spoiled brat! He had a row with Miriam O'Callaghan after his last "presidential" disaster appearance, saying: "trial by media" and "it's not fair!" What kind of leader is that?

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  47. Belfastgit

    think it was very unfair myself how that bitch carried on and I'm not supporter of McGuinness, think this could back fire for people like her actually.

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  48. I initially thought that McGuinness running for president was going to be a big risk for him personally... until I realised he was only going to take a leave of absence from his role as deputy first minister of the North's assembly, but not resign. This means he can't lose, for even if he fails to win, he will have boosted Sinn Féin's profile massively whilst inuring the public to attacks on the party for the next general election. This seems to me a brilliant strategy, and it is already playing out in the polls. If only Adams and McGuinness were as morally upright as they are clever!

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  49. Alfie,

    Short of McGuinness facing electoral meltdown he would not run a risk of the nature you seem to be considering. He would never face that given FF’s own meltdown and the vacuum it created. The potential for problems lay in the tensions it could create in the Executive. We have seen some of that already. It has opened old wounds but nothing of a crisis nature. I wonder if a better SF strategy would have been to run somebody like Mary Lou or Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin. A serious assault on FF was there to be made and it could have been used to interrogate the current government and economic policy. There would have been very little of this IRA business. McGuinness is just not credible when it comes to dealing with it.

    Robert,

    ‘The confident fear of the blameless culprit?’

    You definitely put them together!
    "In fact it says absolutely nothing because you were never quoted by Myers.’

    I thought as much. It strikes me simply as hostility to being disagreed with. A mindset that can tolerate no dissent. I think that is one of the reasons why republicanism ended up being suffocated, only leaving a shell called Sinn Fein.
    Ruairi Joseph
    ‘What did he say? His father 'died in defence of the Republic' Yeah good one!!’

    But more people think he did than think he didn’t. The vast bulk of the Irish people have determined that the 26 is the Republic, a 26 County Republic. And they have gave it legitimacy. We might not agree but they are entitled to hold a different opinion from us.

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  50. Ruairi Joseph,
    I don't know why you keep coming back to me! (does the truth hurt?). Calling Miriam O'Callaghan a bitch is not becoming of anyone with a modicum of decency! Is it because she asked questions that were too uncomfortable for poor Marty? Apparently, he's a seasoned politition, so, I would have thought that he would have fielded any questions with ease.

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  51. loada ballix....mcguinness is finding his cake crumbling as he tries to eat it. The free state 'brit's' wee lad is a hypocrite too. there was never any shortage of killers in Ireland.

    Free state forces came out of the nastiest incidents against their 'own' give us a break ffs. It's like these people, big meriam too, were all born from angels.

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  52. Sorry,I meant Politian, i.e. a lying bastard, one that sells you out and a person that speaks out of both sides of their gub at the same time.

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  53. Belfastgit

    So I call Miriam a bitch and you don't like it, she calla McGuinness a murderer on national telly and thats fine??

    Bet she's a smelly bitch too!!

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  54. Ruairi Joseph

    'Bet she's a smelly bitch too!!'

    dunno bout smelly, but i bet her husband if she has one resides in a box under the stairs.

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  55. Ruairi Joseph,
    I actually laughed when you called Miriam O'Callaghan a "smelly" bitch. I remember SF councilors and reps defending every and any action that the IRA carried out. I also remember SF members being called "murderers" and worse, so, what is your problem with her calling "poor Marty" that? the SF members I'm talking about, took it on the chin, and got on with it. Give your head a shake and stop calling women "smelly bitches"!

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  56. One dirty smelly aul bitch, can't help it!!

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  57. AM

    'But more people think he did than think he didn’t. The vast bulk of the Irish people have determined that the 26 is the Republic, a 26 County Republic. And they have gave it legitimacy'

    Then logic follows that the bulk of people in the 6 have given Northern Ireland legitimacy.

    Suppose it depends in which year one considers the Irish Republic established.

    To me it is obvious that Kelly died in defence of Northern Ireland.

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  58. Section 408

    That is an interesting angle. It would be highly politically embarrassing.

    Ruairi Joseph

    Apart from the fact that there is absolutely zilch political content in your comment about Miriam, it deflects attention away from the otherwise serious points you seek to raise. McGuinness invited it to a large extent. He had earlier described some IRA killings as murder. In doing so he framed the discussion. Miriam would feel entitled to use his language for the purpose of questioning him.

    Then logic follows that the bulk of people in the 6 have given Northern Ireland legitimacy.’

    Not only that but the people in the 26 have given the 6 legitimacy as well. And if we combine both endorsements it makes for formidable opposition to republicans.

    ‘To me it is obvious that Kelly died in defence of Northern Ireland.’
    And to the vast bulk of people he died in defence of a kidnapped man/ the Republic/democracy, whatever. And regardless of the traditional republican view of the Irish Army, I doubt very much if he was out in the fields thinking about the defence of the constitutional status of the North within the UK.

    Belfastgit

    Unfortunateit is the sort of smear SF would spread about their detractors. I recall them referring to one female critic as a ‘whore.’

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  59. AM

    Take your point actually that McGuinness did use the language of "murder" first, so left himself wide open, however this is a technicality as I'm convinced she would have used the term regardless. I originally termed Miriam a "bitch" much the same way as McGuinness has been termed a lying "bastard" for example and no one here objects at all. We hate Sinn Fein and that's paramount.

    'Not only that but the people in the 26 have given the 6 legitimacy as well. And if we combine both endorsements it makes for formidable opposition to republicans'

    Israel has been endorsed, so I suppose that's all fine and dandy as well. What a nonsense.I suppose you can have just about anything “endorsed” with enough terror.

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  60. Belfastgit

    In the case of that bitch Miriam; if she thinks so lowly of that bastard Mcguinness, considering how far he has travelled to join the choir, what must she think of you? Is it a case of my enemies’ enemie is my friend?

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  61. Ruairi Joseph

    She might well have used the term murder and I think you are right about that. But in the context which the exchange took place to call her a smelly bitch for what you think she might have done hardly seems merited. The real focus of your anger should be on McGuinness using the term murder to begin with. Concentrating on her rather than him seems to be using a technicality to avoid the real issue.

    Much depends on the significance attached to the terms people use to insult others. ‘Bitch’ has a specifically male tone of domination to it, at least to my ear. Bastard seems more neutral. Those that call McGuinness a lying bastard are at least half right. He does lie through his teeth. There is absolutely no accuracy to your allegation against Miriam. The discussion here would be much better if that sort of language (bastards and bitches) were left out of it. We try not to police anything and don’t want the debate sanitised but sometimes it degenerates into bile. I didn’t find your initial comment on her bilious as such but the more you repeat it the more it sounds that way.

    You are not the only one calling her the same term by the way. I have a piece to throw up which touches on the issue and mentions the fact that she is being labelled a bitch in a few places.

    ‘Israel has been endorsed, so I suppose that's all fine and dandy as well. What a nonsense. I suppose you can have just about anything “endorsed” with enough terror.’

    None of which addresses the issue, which is the formidable opposition that is posed to republicans by the endorsement of partition by the bulk of Irish people. Who in Ireland went to the polls terrorised to endorse the GFA? I went and voted against, remember the day very well. There was no terror that made me feel I might have to vote in favour. I l know of no one who felt terrorised into voting for it. It was so easy to vote against.

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  62. Just posted this on another forum and thought I'd also drop it in here...

    Last night there was a fund raising event held in Derry for McGuinness's Presidential campaign; various local entertainers gave their time free of charge.....

    However it appears that the same Martin McGuinness who people were giving their time freely to help fund turned up on Thursday night, after the Mansion House rally, at the Dublin restaurant of none other than the British celebrity chief Marco Pierre White. He had his entourage with him as well as the Dublin actor Colm Meaney.

    Ah but the fund raising last night might have just covered the bill.

    Lets look at Marco Pierre White, the British celebrity chef. He's an ardent supporter of the Conservative Party. Perhaps Marty or Conor met and got to know him while attending the Tory Party conference?

    Pierre White also supports 'Our Boys' in Afghanistan.... http://www.marcopierrewhite.org/

    The Fools! The Fools! The Fools!

    Indeed they are; those Shinners!

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  63. AM

    I bet if I go searching here, I'll find comments referring to female Sinners, or perhaps the dear old Queen, as "bitches" without a single objection to it. Seems it depends really on whose bitch it is.

    My initial throw away remark, I elaborated on in order to highlight the hypocrisy of others regarding their own remarks. I'm sure Miriam has impeccable personal hygiene.

    'You are not the only one calling her the same term by the way. I have a piece to throw up which touches on the issue and mentions the fact that she is being labelled a bitch in a few places'

    Oh good, can't wait. I'm such a brute; anyone would think that I was looking Mariam to swing around a poll for me, while I stuffed her underpants with notes.

    ‘None of which addresses the issue, which is the formidable opposition that is posed to republicans by the endorsement of partition by the bulk of Irish people. Who in Ireland went to the polls terrorised to endorse the GFA? I went and voted against, remember the day very well. There was no terror that made me feel I might have to vote in favour. I l know of no one who felt terrorised into voting for it. It was so easy to vote against’

    What I was actually referring to is, the fact that it has been through British terror in Ireland, that we find ourselves in a situation, that the Irish people need two polls to endorse a British solution.

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  64. Ruairi,

    Go search. If you find it, your critics shall just have to swallow.

    ‘What I was actually referring to is, the fact that it has been through
    British terror in Ireland, that we find ourselves in a situation, that the Irish people need two polls to endorse a British solution.’

    The people of today count for today. Mandates last until the next election and then can be changed. People are not bound by the mandates of a previous era. If they were how could change ever come about? From a republican perspective partition and dual polls etc are not the way to go. But saying that does nothing to overturn the fact that partition has been democratically endorsed. It was clear from early on in the peace process that it was going to work out that way. Yet republicans failed to stop SF going for the GFA. Once that happened the strategic challenges posed to republican thinking became immense.

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  65. AM

    Surprised I didn't find any bitches in your article "pit bull with lipstick" but just knew Iris Robision would be an acceptable bitch all round... so drop the bitchforks fellas!!

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  66. Ruairi Joseph,

    post the link and let the readers judge.

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  67. AM

    what's there to judge, wheather I'm telling the truth?

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