This Is Not Rome

He is less than six months in office but Taoiseach Enda Kenny has already guaranteed himself a place in the history books. The Mayo man stood in the Dail yesterday and shattered those links between church and State that for so long have been an intrinsic part of the fabric of Irish society … The days of kowtowing to Rome, regardless of the circumstances, were clearly over  – Alison O’Connor

A Fine Gael Taoiseach is not the type of person who expects to be lauded by republicans. Enda Kenny has managed that. Today, speaking to former prisoners, I heard Kenny taking plaudits for the robust challenge he made to the malodorous Vatican in the Dail yesterday.  A woman in our company, with good reason, made the point that he is no longer ‘Enda Lite.’

In terms of State-Church relations, the Dail dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, narcissism rebuke is earth shattering. Its strength and clarity are without precedent.  Where it could previously be reported that Ireland had a subservient relationship to the Vatican, as of yesterday that is no more.  The Ireland of De Valera and Archbishop McQuaid is dead and gone. As the Irish Independent could report:

Like a Crusader heading off to pagan lands to fight the Infidel, Taoiseach Enda Kenny has embarked on an all-out battle against the heinous evil of protected clerical paedophilia in the Vatican citadel which he must not lose.

The men of god will be seething. There is no place for them to hide, no theological hocus pocus to mumble that will make it all go away, no brandishing of the crosier to intimidate, no threats of hell that will work. They are banjaxed.

There are those who will criticise Kenny by claiming he is relieved at the crisis gripping the Church insofar as it draws attention away from the economic woes. But the argument works the other way. It is they who are hoping to deflect attention, onto the economy and away from the litany of clerical rapes. Moreover, this was an all party motion aimed at exposure, not one from a party with a neo-liberal agenda seeking concealment of its economic performance.  Yesterday the Irish people through their elected parliament and their Taoiseach spoke out unequivocally on behalf of Irish children against the monstrous men of god who run the Vatican.

There is no reason not to discuss this issue in the Dail regardless of the state of the economy or the very genuine concerns that people have about Roscommon Hospital. The country is plagued by a number of woes and each should have its day in the Dail. Too often we have seen the issue of child rape by priests pushed to the side and it has solved nothing.

In his address to the Dail Enda Kenny pulled no punches in accusing the Vatican of frustrating an inquiry in a democracy:

as little as three years ago, not three decades ago … the rape and torture of children were downplayed or ‘managed’ to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and reputation.

The previous day the mendacious men of god were doing what they always do, churning out lies. The cleric Federico Lombardi defended the 1997 Vatican letter to Irish bishops undermining Irish civil law on the spurious grounds that:

There is no reason to interpret that letter as being intended to cover up cases of abuse. Moreover, there is absolutely nothing in the letter that is an invitation to disregard the laws of the country.

This ‘pathetic charade’ will be acceptable to none other than some demented Catholics who think it is all an anti-Catholic conspiracy. Unluckily for them, the Taoiseach is a practicing Catholic which makes it hard for the Church to claim he is at the head of an anti-Catholic campaign. He has  'given a powerful voice to what we've all been thinking' said Tony Flannery, a leader of the Association of Catholic Priests in Ireland. Some other means of discrediting him will have to be found. Kenny merely made the call that any conscientious ethical person, Catholic or otherwise, would make, that the Church ‘needs to be a penitent Church. A church, truly and deeply penitent for the horrors it perpetrated, hid and denied.’

Freddie the Fabricator and the arrogant Vatican on whose behalf he lies however can brook no such thing. Perish the thought that god’s men could ever be accountable to mere mortals. How dare an elected upstart question god’s men and their infallible leader. Yet Enda Kenny was unrelenting:

this is not Rome. Nor is it industrial-school or Magdalene Ireland, where the swish of a soutane smothered conscience and humanity and the swing of a thurible ruled the Irish-Catholic world. This is the ‘Republic’ of Ireland 2011.

That a woman, scriptwriter Miriam O’Callaghan, is being credited with drafting much of the speech will further enrage the clerics. A lowly woman, a second class citizen, who not so long ago didn’t even have a soul and who will never be allowed to enter the priesthood, has the audacity to question the men of god. Outrageous.

Kenny also put manners on canon law, confirming its irrelevant status in relation to civil law. In deflating its arrogant pretentiousness he asserted the perspective of secular democracy that civil law:

will always supersede canon laws that have neither legitimacy nor place in the affairs of this country. The standards of conduct which the Church deems appropriate to itself, cannot and will not, be applied to the workings of democracy and civil society in this republic.

Enda Kenny might never make a better speech. He will hardly need to. In moving to protect Irish children from the Vatican, from rape, from torture, he has done a service to this country none of his predecessors have matched.

Children First. Pope last.

50 comments:

  1. Never rated Kenny and thought he was going to bite the dust in the FG leadership battle. Though Brutton was a lightweight wee weazel; which I reconed saved Enda at the time.

    Since the leadership victory he has gone from strength to strength. His speech on O'Bama's visit was great drama and revealed a hidden passion that was fun to watch.

    Now we have movement on the bailout and the paedo Vatican getting a boot in the balls. Careful Enda, you'll have us disolusioned fenians voting FG.

    Good article, genuinely enjoyed that.

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  2. Adams looked like a cowed wee mongrel dog afraid to look up during the Kenny speech about the Vatican,and no bloody wonder!! While he was protecting a child rapist for decades and courting media attention for SF and the surrender, good men were still dying and risking their lives.

    Voting for Enda Kenny might be no bad thing!

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  3. For me it has been practically habitual to dislike and disregard FG as anything worth a thought. Kenny has taken me by surprise and I can only say "Bravo Enda!"

    This ties down nicely the law on priests or anyone who may know of child abuse and do not report it --there can be no future case splitting hairs on what the Government intended by introducing a law that takes precedent over Confessions to a priest.

    Some priests are already vowing to defend an abuser of children in the event that they (a colleague) confess to child abuse in the confessional box and the priest who hears the confession will not disclose that child abuse to an Garda. I think Enda has sent the strongest of responses to those priests should they aid and abett in a peadophile escaping the rigours of the law.

    For years Confessions have likley been an enabler for repeat offenders --because they can simply confess their sins to a colleague to be obsolved with three hail Mary's --allowing them to abuse again with a clear conscience.

    Benedict XVI now you can shut the fuck up! And don't expect to evade the law in Ireland any longer but then I doubt you plan to make yourself available within Irish jurisdiction any day soon!!

    Bravo Enda!!

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  4. Any chance "Inda" has put his wetted finger in the air to see which way the wind was blowing, and saw an opportunity to demonstrate 'backbone'. This the same lad who insisted that we (irish workers) would pay 'our' debts (Anglo etc) last month, just before today's 50% rate reduction? This the same back-bencher who never uttered a meaningful syllable in Leinster House for 25 years? Puh-lease.

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  5. hmmmmm
    So what credentials do you think anyone should have that gives them the right to condemn an institution that protects child rapists.Children are the most vulnerable members of our society and to have them violated by religious clerics (and I use that term loosely) who are supposed to be among the most trustworthy members of society is open for condemnation by all as far as I am concerned.Prosecutions should be brought against the leaders of the Catholic Church , starting at the top. If the British and American governments hopefully prosecute the Murdochs for the disgraceful events that have occurred under their leadership of News International then the current Pope , Cardinals and Bishops who have been protecting these perverts down the years should also be brought to task. No sanction could be too strong to give some sort of justice to the victims of these heinous crimes.Cover ups and guilt money is not the answer , prosecutions and jail terms is.

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  6. Following recent disclosures about paedophile priests in Scotland a letter was read out at Sunday mass. The letter was issued by a leading Bishop in which he stated that the number of priests involved only constituted 4% of the operational clergy. The figure was made out to be a paltry amount in the grand scheme of things.One child abuser in society is too much never mind 15 of probably only about 300 priests in the whole country.

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  7. section 408

    wouldn't it be great if the pope and his cardinals were arrested on their travels like Pinoche?

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  8. larry hughes

    Ha Ha Just picture them stepping off the plane and doing the old ground kissing trick and some big Guard or Glasgow polis whipping their hands behind their back and slapping the handcuffs on them. "Honest yer honour it wisnae me.I was in charge but Ah didnae know whit was going on." Aye right a likely story Benny my boy.

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  9. Section 408,

    that is funny. It reminds me of the priest:

    'I was coming home on a wet night and found a frog. I took it home to keep it dry and kissed it goodnight, put it in the bed beside me for warmth, and when I woke up in the morning it was an altar boy. And that's the truth your honour.

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  10. AM

    re the 'frog defence' John MGirr would be on the bench.

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  11. Larry,

    its all the frog's fault. The priests listened to the frog and that's what caused the problem!

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  12. Anthony,

    I think the Church deserves all the criticism it is getting. However, I also think David Quinn and Kevin Myers have a point when they wonder why there hasn't been the same degree of outrage about the State's ongoing failure to prevent the abuse or death of children in its care. Myers mentions the recent cases of a mother in Galway and a mother in Roscommon who brutally abused their children for years even though both families were under HSE supervision. Quinn highlights the appalling fact that in the last decade, over 200 children in State care or known to child protection services lost their lives in circumstances that are now being investigated. This is absolutely disgraceful. Why is no politician launching broadsides in the Dáil against the dysfunction and disconnection of the State's child protection services?

    Don't get me wrong. The Church is on the floor and that is where it must be kept. Some priests and bishops ought to be in the dock, but shouldn't some social workers and civil servants be there along with them?

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  13. Just watched rte coverage It is historic moment really... brilliant Am grinning from ear 2 ear... That's what needed to be done... No turning back now Ireland... Nail those evil bastards down so thoroughly they never again will access kids to abuse them. Put them on trial.
    @ John McGirr tis a good thing this happened It is great and to me it is deeply spiritual. The veneer, lies and games of the Vatican are exposed. Naked in their sly, cunning games. The wounding on Ireland and her survivors and Irish abroad can only heal when the pus is exposed released and cleansed away...
    Cannot stop grinning So good what he said...
    @ hmmmm even if it be as you suggest a distraction from dire economic times u would have to agree he got it right... Money may come and go, helltimes financially etc but a child's life is precious more precious than money. One life damaged by clergy abuse is one too many.

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  14. Alfie,

    my own sentiments. I read the two articles while in the optician this afternoon waiting on my son getting an eye test. I had already read Myers this morning but his name was on the online byline. There should be no let up on any of it even if I do wonder why it took both writers until now to raise the state failings. Seemed they were again trying to deflect attention away from clerical rape which means if that is done they will go back to ignoring state malpractice. I think there is another aspect that needs discussed and that is child poverty which is a clear form of abuse. As far as I am aware there is a seriously high rate of children going hungry in this state.

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  15. Anthony,

    You're right. I doubt either author ever raises these matters outside of ideological point-scoring. I do believe in state-run public services, but I also think it is high time that public-sector unions began to care more about accountability and less about pay.

    PS. After reading Myers's latest article about Somalia, I'd imagine he doesn't give a tuppenny fuck about hungry kids in Ireland either. By God, does he love his own half-arsed assumptions and facile generalisations, playing his intellectual fiddle while children starve. Fucking douchebag.

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  16. Alfie,

    http://thepensivequill.am/2008/11/enforcing-code-of-malpractice.html

    was in defence of his right to expression while holding that he was hopelessly wrong on the issue of Africa.

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  17. Anthony,

    Of course he has the right to expression; indeed, I believe the press council were wrong to censure him a few years ago. But that doesn't change the fact that he is a smug, self-important, sophistic scumbag. His opinions should not be ignored but analysed and robustly challenged.

    Sorry for venting spleen, but I read Myers's Somalia article earlier today and thought of the donations that might not be made and the children that might die on account of his words.

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  18. Alfie,

    I find his position on Africa appalling. The last one I read I think he was calling for us to allow the Africans to starve to death.

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  19. Anthony,

    That is essentially the argument he was making, but when someone called him out on it, he denied it on the grounds that he had never stated directly that we should let famine-stricken Africans starve, even though this is exactly what he was implying.

    One of the gross generalisations he makes is that Somali people are mostly ungrateful, hate-filled, genital-mutilating Islamists and always will be. He also seems to assume that Western investment in African education and infrastructure (along with food aid) will have no effect, never mind the fact that it will obviously take some African countries longer to overcome the cultural and social impact of their brutal colonial past. Furthermore, I don't know much about the trade and economic problems that African countries face, but I am led to believe that they are significant and that no amount of free-market hand-waving will solve them.

    I think Myers is probably rather chuffed with himself for being so daring. For the sake of Somali children, though, I hope that few in Ireland are convinced by him.

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  20. Enda accidentally, may have with his statements and only time will tell with his actions, have brought a united Ireland that little bit closer.
    I think you will find that if the structure and power of the roman catholic church is emasculated, you will find a more responsive Unionist. For me a united Ireland was never about the people or government. It was always the overt domineering malevolent power and influence of the roman catholic church. How ironic that the structure that the Irish state was built on and in my view the greatest obstacle to a united Ireland. Has by its own malevolent actions, is helping to bring its self down, and by way of default assisted in bringing a united Ireland that bit closer.

    It’s down to you Mr Taoiseach, let your actions change the Irish state. Throwing off the 15th century shekels of the roman catholic church, and you may find that you have laid the best foundation for a United Ireland.

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  21. Ranger,

    I saw an echo of this in Fergus Finlay's piece in which he said Kenny had done more to push republicanism forward in one speech than the Provisional IRA did in 30 years. Interesting that you develop a similar theme.

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  22. Ranger 1640 I agree with your post a cara,the catholic church through their actions and arrogant response may have indeed sown the seeds of their own demise,lets hope so. and in turn make the idea of a truly independant 32 socialist republic much more acceptable to the loyalist population here, all we need now is for loyalism to dump the fanatics in the lol and we could be looking at a whole new ball game.

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  23. ranger 1640

    fair comment. The Established Anglican church stole 85% of Irish land for 15% of the population and the RC church successfully aligned 'religion' as the native rock upon which resistance to England was founded.

    The RC church on examination with inquisitions, huge property portfolios worldwide, indulgences and targetting every impoverished nation to feed upon the hopeless and desperate, is nothing to do with Chritian values.

    The children who were abused bringing that monstrous empire to its knees is apt; suffer little children.

    It's a long process though, the monster is so focused on its greed, it is incapable of identifying the 'problem'.

    Politically, the Unionists are no saints, they were the nazi's of the UK. A sick embarrassment. Nomatter how bad Irish politicians perform, AND THEY DO! We will NEVER trust the English to meddle here. Let them stay in the other 49 nations they've invaded...AND COUNTING!

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  24. Anthony, I’m not sure, but I think you already know if you speak to many Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists. You will find that they are more socialist than capitalist, and are therefore not against a socialist republic per se.

    You will find that when you scratch the surface it has always been the malevolent influence of the roman catholic church in the Irish state, that has kept the majority of Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists form supporting a United Ireland. And as was proved we could not trust an Irish government to protect Protestant believes and culture. Step forward the corrosive Ne Temere and the Fethard-On-Sea incident. This malevolent decree that has nothing to do with socialism or state, but all to do with church control. To the Irish Free States’ and Irish Republic’s great discredit they did nothing to intervene. Unlike many other countries, who did resist this evil papal decree!!! Then we had Eamon de Valera’s a special place for the roman catholic church within the Irish constitution.

    De Valera, was obviously sending out the message, if the English have their Church of England, then Ireland will have its Church of Rome. That’s all well and good but all this did was reinforce the Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist view that we would never get a fair crack of the whip in an Irish republic, therefore entrenching views. A United Ireland was now getting further away, and with republican violence even further.

    If Enda gets to grip with the roman catholic church, and a total separation of church and state. You will find that the 90 odd years of republican violence against the north was a complete and utter waste of time. How ironic the answer to a United Ireland was there all the time within the grasp of the Irish state itself, remove the power and influence of the roman catholic church and you had no impediment to Irish Unity.

    As a Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, I can never comprehend the obedience of the nationalist/republican to the superstitions and control of the roman catholic church.

    This is why there are so many Protestant Denominations. How an individual interacts with their god is their personal choice, not the prescriptive malevolent roman catholic way.

    The church has a roll in a country, however it’s not at the at the top table, or in the cabinet, educating children, healing the sick, caring for orphans, organizing sports ect, ect, ect.

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  25. Ranger1640,
    good comments but I think you're oversimplifying it. Unionists will always come up with more excuses never to have a united Ireland. If not the RC chucrch then it'll be something else. Why did the Stormont regime discriminate for so long against the nationalist people. Was that the fault of the Church too? Much like the Afrikaners of South Africa who would always maintain that they could not give up apartheid because it was a bulwark against Communism. Excuses excuses

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  26. As my Dublin friend aid, "Coming from such a hideous crawling altar-licking catholic all his hyprocritical life; they must be really down is he is kicking them"
    So, I wouldn't rush to make a hero out of him.

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  27. Opportunity knocks and Gift horse and mouth, comes to mind here.

    Seems the years of Sinn Fein indoctrination are making some on here sceptical.

    I did not say it would be easy but given the right legislation and actions on that legislation in the south, and you might fined a softening of positions. I know there are difficulties, not lest with the ownership of the infrastructure of schools and hospitals. But that can be the price the roman catholic church pays to the Irish state for their so far unpunished crimes. And what I know of the church of Rome influence over the young and money are more important than getting into a their so called heaven.
    Who would want to go there anyway? It will be full of paedophile priests!!!

    We know that the UK government especially a Labour government would have us down the road tomorrow. However it was better for us to say where we where, than in the puppet state of Rome.

    That said if we thought we would get a secular state with a guarantee, you just might will find that there are more Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists than you think easy to convince.

    If I and others are saying this then the ball is well and truly in Enda's court.

    I'm not saying it will be easy or tomorrow, but with the right effort and legislation you know the United Ireland project might just get the kick start and momentum you did not expect.

    If I maybe so bold as to point out a few home truths. The pious Adams is an issue, but he will not be the omnipotent one forever. The other issue is the state of the Irish economy. whether it is robust enough to take the North on is questionable, but this is not an overnight project and by the time the Irish economy is in a better place you just never know.

    Just shows you persuasion is better than coercion.

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  28. 'A lowly woman, a second class citizen, who not so long ago didn’t even have a soul....'

    Can anyone substantiate this? When did women not have souls?

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  29. 'A Fine Gael Taoiseach is not the type of person who expects to be lauded by republicans. Enda Kenny has managed that.'

    Has a Republican lauded Enda Kenny? Who? Where?

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  30. @ Ranger1640 RE 'As a Protestant/Unionist/Loyalist, I can never comprehend the obedience of the nationalist/republican to the superstitions and control of the roman catholic church.'

    As an Ex Catholic Irish woman I will never comprehend the futile, stuck in a rut, loyalist mentality which is by default a confused, seperatist entity. NB A grand day in Ireland will also be the end of your Hate Marches. The shit flows both ways. Proddie orgs under the banner of Christian beliefs also have their ship of fools/criminals/atrocities.
    I understand Catholic nationalists and would stand with them not your lot if the need arose. We don't forget our history/suffering/losses ='s Native Irish we are NOT brainwashed, regurgitated 21st century planters grappling with an identity crisis.

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  31. Tiarna,

    Kenny was surprisingly strong on it alright. The conservative Catholics have been stung. The thinking amongst them are seeking to make intellectual arguments while the demented are blaming gays.

    ‘Some priests are already vowing to defend an abuser of children in the event that they (a colleague) confess to child abuse in the confessional box and the priest who hears the confession will not disclose that child abuse to an Garda.’

    They can do the time then. Let’s see how principled they are in the cell. Very few will ever do time in defence of it. Who would march in support of them? They are not after all providing a public service, merely performing a private members’ ritual.

    ‘For years Confessions have likely been an enabler for repeat offenders.’

    Without doubt.

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  32. Anthony would you not agree that to the catholic church the confession box was a superb way of gathering information on those you wish to control and to paedo,s it its a perfect way to find vunerable kids and their families,bet sb were jealous,

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  33. Marty,

    I think it would be hard to find fault with that interpretation of the confessional. I think when we reach the understanding that there is nothing essentially good about clergy then we are able to see the uses that things are put to. They would use the confessional for the same reasons that the SB would use torture.

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  34. John,

    "Can anyone substantiate this? When did women not have souls?"

    I was actually wondering about that myself. Then again, considering that demons, apparations, miracles, etc. are all part of the Catholic faith, the idea of women not having souls might just be daft enough to have been part of it too. I have much more respect for my father's brand of theism. He believes in God, but he doesn't buy into any hocus-pocus.

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  35. Alfie,

    it is more figurative than literal but captures the attitude of the Church to women. Aquinas, I have read defined them as defective men deficient in body and soul. But he believed in celestial fairies and called them angels.

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  36. Saint Mary, In your post you said "We don't forget our history/suffering/losses". I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish.

    Would you be in favour to of America being handed back to the native Americans.

    Interestingly I see by your profile you live in Australia. Why don't you start and make a stand and give the bit of Australia you inhabit back to the native Australians? After all you by your presence there off the back of English oppression of the native Australians. You are therefore by default oppressing their self determination and their right to their native land. Or does it only apply to Ireland????

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  37. Larry,


    ‘Adams looked like a cowed wee mongrel dog afraid to look up during the Kenny speech about the Vatican, and no bloody wonder!!’

    I sensed he was very uncomfortable. He more resembles a bishop than anyone else in the Dail. Ironic on a day that saw Kenny pushing a republican sentiment.

    ‘Voting for Enda Kenny might be no bad thing!’

    Certainly before I would ever vote for the former bishop of West Belfast. But there is so much else in the mix that it would be impossible to cast a vote the way of FG. But if he was never right on anything else he certainly got this right.

    SMH,

    Kenny was right but it was long overdue. What is encouraging is the amount of Irish clergy backing him. I thought they would have opted for the ostrich strategy which as we can see from this discussion has happened. Demented Catholics will evade and avoid whereas the thinking Catholics try to tackle the issues raised by Enda Kenny. But diversionary tactics have lost their value because Irish society is doing what you said – nailing the evil bastards down. Squeezing the pus means we will have to put up with a putrid clerical smell for a while but it will be worth it if it protects children from priests.

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  38. ranger1640,

    "Saint Mary, In your post you said "We don't forget our history/suffering/losses". I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish."

    Maybe she was simply referring to the fact that Britain occupied Ireland for centuries without the consent of the indigenous people whom it oppressed for much of the occupation. Just a thought...

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  39. Ranger 1640

    'I take it by that, that you would be in favour of retuning all planter lands back to the Irish'.

    There-in is the fundamental problem. Unionists in the North refuse to see themselves as an Irish minority or Irish AT ALL.

    More akin to Nazis, zionists and Boers. Irish in the UK, America and Australia obey the laws of that country, work and pay tax in them. If you are so determined to be anything but Irish, bugger-off.

    If Henry 8th had remained Catholic Ireland would still have been colonised and your mankie mob would have found another excuse for theft and an easy time.

    By the way...i saw on tv recently the yanks dropped a 2000lb lazer guided smart bomb on US Special forces and the northern alliance in Afghanistan, by mistake. When asked for a comment, a US military spokesman said 'bombs go wrong'

    Imagin the RIRA sayin that over Omagh.... just a thought on other facets of hypocrasy.

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  40. Ranger1640,

    you don’t need to be a Protestant/unionist/loyalist to fail to comprehend the obedience on the nationalist/republican side to the superstitions of the Catholic Church. I look at them worshipping statures, making holy water and thinking god is a wafer and think to myself are people so gullible. All those idiots flocking to a tree stump must embarrass all but the demented Catholics. I know Catholics who wince at the thought of it. Having said that, Protestantism is no more persuasive. All that evangelical stuff must be as embarrassing to many Protestants as miraculous tree stumps are to many Catholics.

    Larry,

    ‘wouldn't it be great if the pope and his cardinals were arrested on their travels like Pinochet?’

    And who demanded Pinochet’s release? Ratzinger is said to have been behind the Vatican diplomacy to have him freed when he was arrested in Britain for killing Spanish civilians.

    ‘Never rated Kenny and thought he was going to bite the dust in the FG leadership battle.’

    I used to think he had no chance of ever making Taoiseach. But things have turned around for him. Once he won the internal battle circumstances were fortuitous for him. While I doubt if us ‘disillusioned Fenians’ would ever vote FG, we can’t blind ourselves to what happens in front of our eyes. And on putting it up to the Vatican he was sound.

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  41. @ ranger1640 What Larry said answers part of your question for me as follows: 'There-in is the fundamental problem. Unionists in the North refuse to see themselves as an Irish minority or Irish AT ALL.' (larry)
    An Aboriginal elder many years ago told me something in conversation that i have never forgotten... He said:
    "They practised on your people then they came for us"
    And just as deep was a very old Aboriginal woman who walked up to me at a Aboriginal special get together i was invited to. She took me aside and told me she wanted me to know something. She told of a story passed down through her tribe/clan in generations around the campfire. Oral lessons/history passed on to the young ones. As a girl she learnt of Irish men who were beaten and denigrated until (i quote here here exact description) "beaten and mocked until they were half insane"
    This Aboriginal elder then hugged me and said: "What i want you to know sister, is our people understood their pain yes we did" It was deep, deep profound stuff... And i am not ashamed to say i cried me guts out on the way home for her people & ours.
    One can only work with what is left after extensive genocidal practices on any Indigenous culture...
    To conclude - let the Aboriginal people of Australia have their cultural rights, land rights and all rights. God knows so much was decimated and so much suffering/sorrow be on them to this very day... Much of Australia stands with them for their rights.
    Let the Irish have their rights on their land. Those who resist these innate rights perpetuate fragmentation ='s the madness and wounds continue. Like i said we can only build up on what is left of what was taken. NB Clean up the Vatican next stop Sort the OO headcase shop! That is it.

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  42. Ranger1640/36th Ulster

    ‘I did not say it would be easy but given the right legislation and actions on that legislation in the south, and you might fined a softening of positions. ‘

    Begs the question of how British the Unionists actually feel or believe themselves to be.

    ‘Who would want to go there anyway? It will be full of paedophile priests!!!’

    You will find few here who disagree with that.

    ‘However it was better for us to say where we where, than in the puppet state of Rome.’

    I think there was much more to unionists opposition than the Catholic Church. Unionists had every good reason not to want to go into a united Ireland where the Church had a say but even without that malign Church power Unionists had a cultural identity that can not be reduced to religion.

    ‘That said if we thought we would get a secular state with a guarantee, you just might well find that there are more
    Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists than you think easy to convince.’

    But they were happy enough to live in a state that for long challenged secularism to the point that it would close parks and chain up swings on a Sunday. There is nothing particularly secular about unionism.

    ‘The pious Adams is an issue

    But he has done more to consolidate partition than any previous Northern nationalist leader.

    ‘Just shows you persuasion is better than coercion.’

    It doesn’t really. While it is true as a general rule this is not the case to prove it on.

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  43. 'I look at them worshipping statures....'

    The dumbest comment on the Quill yet!

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  44. Ranger1640

    ‘ if you speak to many Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists. You will find that they are more socialist than capitalist, and are therefore not against a socialist republic per se.’

    A tiny minority of them in my view. I don’t think there are too many socialists these days if by socialist we mean something approximating what Scargill stood for.

    ‘it has always been the malevolent influence of the roman catholic church in the Irish state, that has kept the majority of Protestants/Unionists/Loyalists from supporting a United Ireland.’

    While there is no doubt about a malevolent Church I think it was only one strand in the unionist makeup. Many northern nationalists found aspects of Protestantism deeply dangerous. Sure, I don’t doubt that the Vatican issued many evil decrees but was it any more evil than Paisleyism?

    ‘If Enda gets to grip with the roman catholic church, and a total separation of church and state. You will find that the 90 odd years of republican violence against the north was a complete and utter waste of time.’

    We hardly need that to draw the same conclusion. Just look at Stormont for evidence to fill your eyes with

    ‘How ironic the answer to a United Ireland was there all the time within the grasp of the Irish state itself, remove the power and influence of the roman catholic church and you had no impediment to Irish Unity.’

    I find this a big oversimplification.

    ‘How an individual interacts with their god is their personal choice, not the prescriptive malevolent roman catholic way.’

    Very true.

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  45. Anthony,

    "I think there was much more to unionists opposition than the Catholic Church. Unionists had every good reason not to want to go into a united Ireland where the Church had a say but even without that malign Church power Unionists had a cultural identity that can not be reduced to religion."

    But should every minority culture be accommodated with its own statelet? Unionists accounted for about a quarter of the population on this island at the beginning of the 20th century. They did not desire an independent state of their own, merely a British-controlled statelet where they could be in the majority. Why should they be accommodated, especially since Ireland had been recognised and governed as a distinct country for centuries and since there was no credible border in this country between between nationalists and unionists? It must also be said that a British state already existed across the water where people who considered themselves British could live if they did not want to be in a minority in another country. As Larry pointed out, the Irish and most people of other nationalities are happy to live and work as members of a minority community in countries all over the world such as the USA, Australia and even Britain itself. They do not demand their own self-governing enclaves that are attached to their countries of origin. I wonder how the British government would react if, in 50 years time, the Pakistani community in the UK wanted to create Pakistani-controlled statelets in the areas where Pakistanis are in the majority. I imagine the British would put forward the same sort of arguments against such a scenario as Irish nationalists have put forward against Northern Ireland.

    The right of self-determination should not be used by large, powerful states to expand their borders at the expense of smaller, weaker ones. The Irish people may have accepted the existence of Northern Ireland, but that doesn't change the fact that it was illegitimately established.

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  46. Alfie,

    ‘But should every minority culture be accommodated with its own statelet?’

    No. But should every self proclaimed nation have a state?

    I think a state is an indispensable mechanism of political organisation. I don’t think a nation is. It so happens that there is a utilitarian overlapping of nations and states. The history of nationalism has been both radical and reactionary. Borders are not always natural. Political power has often defined them (our own for example). Do people have the right to dissent from the nation? Should there be obligatory nationalism? Should democracy be trumped by nationalism? These are the sort of questions that have drifted through my mind over the years as I have pondered the matter. At some point nation states are likely to be a thing of the past as human society evolves other structures to organise themselves and people self-identify in different ways. Whether this is a good or bad thing it seems to me it will happen. I always tend to ask what is the most humane and rights driven way for society to organise itself rather than arbitrarily impose or depose the nation.

    ‘The Irish people may have accepted the existence of Northern Ireland, but that doesn't change the fact that it was illegitimately established.’

    But the fact that it was such established does not, as you have previously argued, address the facts on the ground of where we are now. ‘Writing in 1954 on the very question of the divided country John V. Kelleher suggested that a political problem is rarely solved by those who ‘tend to see it as it first existed and not as time and society continually refashion it … the history of the problem is nearly irrelevant to its solution.…’

    While I am quoting from my own 2008 article here, it struck me before that it in some ways resembled the logic you have outlined.

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  47. Anthony,

    "But should every self proclaimed nation have a state?"

    No. I think self-proclaimed states should be recognised by the UN on a case-by-case basis using criteria such as constitutional status, population size, national homogeneity and viability. Twenty Elvis impersonators living in someone's back yard who wanted to establish Elvisland there should obviously not be recognised!

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  48. Alfie,

    ‘I think self-proclaimed states should be recognised by the UN … ‘

    I thought old lefties like you did not trust the UN!!

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  49. Anthony,

    "I thought old lefties like you did not trust the UN!!"

    I suppose I shouldn't, but what else is there? NATO?!?

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  50. Alfie,

    that is the problem. The 96th International is hardly going to address it! So we are left with it.

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