Former IRA volunteer and ex-prisoner, spent 18 years in Long Kesh, 4 years on the blanket and no-wash/no work protests which led to the hunger strikes of the 80s. Completed PhD at Queens upon release from prison. Left the Republican Movement at the endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement, and went on to become a journalist. Co-founder of The Blanket, an online magazine that critically analyzed the Irish peace process. Lead researcher for the Belfast Project, an oral history of the Troubles.
Whey hey Robbert ya hit the front page ! I knew ya,d do it a cara.ReplyDelete
Good things come to those who wait.
I,m a bit young for the bowler just yet! I am more of a crash helmet sort of orangeman what with 'concerned residents and all that.
Never seen odd job complain in the Bond films Robert,mind you its way past time the wiser council of the orders,and I (FINGERS CROSSED) include your (as Mickeyboy would say)good self,gave the leadership that organisation badly needs,and take your cultural demonstrations to where they tolerated and even appreciated,you engage so well here,we laugh together,we debate and disagree,but I am sure we respect each others right to hold a different viewpoint,and I mean all or most who post here,therefore a cara the removal of contentious parades from where they are seen as a form of intimadation can only be seen as a victory for common sense and will do nothing but good for those in the OO with a more progressive attitude,it wasnt always crash helmets,the main Belfast parade used to walk to Finaghy rd north, and I remember men from Andytown selling beer and lemonade ,orange of course,at the field.we as kids even made a few bob 3d on the empties at the back of The White Fort.I think the OO needs a younger more thoughtfull leadership who can steer it away from confrontation,I think someone like yourself is badly needed, are ya up for the job a cara.ReplyDelete
Agreed, it's the decending upon small nationalist villages for an entire day turning the place into an open prison for the locals that has had people livid down the years. The OO are the dissidents only lifeline these days. So a more chilled out leadership and attitude would benefit everyone. Maybe that very concept infuriates those in control of the OO? Neanderthals. Or maybe they just want the security industry and service industries back again. 40% of the N. Ireland economy was at one stage security related, so I'm guessing not to many taigs benefited from that. Must be a big change in Loyalist areas. Just have to settle down and get proper wee jobs competing with the better educated, 'inferior' micks!ReplyDelete
Marty, what about Johnny Lee Clary for their new leader? He is a born again, just like Torrens Knight.ReplyDelete
They would probably consider him too tame, but I'm sure he could supply them with a load of white hoods to keep the rain off during the wet months.
Marty, it would be better if someone just steered them in the direction of the nearest cliff.ReplyDelete
People have had enough of their nonsense, it's about time someone called time on their ridiculous farce.
While I can understand where your comining from Nuala hon,the reality is that organisations like the OO and their doppelganger in the AOH,are going to be with us for a while yet, so if we accept this as a fact, then surely the onus is on these organisations to consider the implications of where they parade,failing to do so they should then be billed for the subsequent policing and clean up bills, and yip Nuala if it was up to me I,d steer all these semi-quasi religious organisations over the nearest cliff,Legion of Mary included!!ReplyDelete
I very much respect your right to hold a different view point. although in that viewpoint I detect a desire for mono-culturism and segregation. That is not progressive. I take it you would have no problem with me walking down your street? Why does the wearing of my orange sash transform me into someone you oppose in your street? Is it because I hold different opinions and allegiences and that sash is a manifestation of that?
I enjoyed that little bit of nostalgia - and they have'nt gone away you know. I regularly see Catholic traders along twelfth routes with a union jack or red hand on their stalls. And why not? We oppose Roman Catholicism not Catholics.
No orange leadership is going to voluntarily lead it's membership away from those areas in which they are being violently opposed. Capitulation of civil liberties in the face of intimidation is the antithesis of everything we stand for. Unknown to you Marty this opposition is actually encouraging a more thoughtful and innovative leadership and we have Bobby Storey, Brendan McKenna, Denis Nelis et al to thank for that. If a crowd of flat earthers in Ardoyne want to destroy their area or a Rasharkin resident wants to plant a hoax device that entails a midnight parade you can hardly blame us for their inability to deal with diversity in a civilised and legal manner.
I personally have no problem with side walk protesting. The post opposition court appearances are always of particular interest to me in confirming the ever increasing distances the offended are now travelling to be offended and intimidated. I see we even had the 'Spanish Menhir Throwing Champion' up in Ardoyne over the Twelfth. Obviously got wind of the Basque ceasefire?
Marty, they still beiieve they are the people and that they can do precisely what they want.ReplyDelete
Now, instead of getting rid of them we are being asked to embrace their culture?
I suppose we are now ebing asked to believe, that their murder gangs were merely advancing their culture.
I certainly have no love for the Legion Of Mary, but I don't think they are quite in the same league.
Robert, what makes you think, that people actually care about your opinion as to where they can protest?ReplyDelete
You lot are the scourge here, not the people who want to protest.
I always believed that they should have opened a few of the roads underneath them as they walked, still do.
"He who angers you conquers you"
You have obvious issues with diversity particularly ordered diversity that you cannot wish, protest or intimidate away. Perhaps you might draw a conclusion form your worldview why you are reduced to ranting and raving in Castle St. I hope in your self indulgance that you will find the Queens highway in sound repair.
“We oppose Roman Catholicism not Catholics.”
Is this a case of hate the sin love the sinners the sin being his Holiness the Pope and the sinners being Catholics.
Catholics by definition fall under Roman Catholicism it would be a matter for the Roman Catholic Church to decide what Catholicism is and I am sure its membership would pay little heed to what the Orange Order cult think about the Catholic Church.
I see you are the lion for a day roaring at the sheep.
Robert,"I take it you would have no problem with me walking down your street,why does the wearing of my orange sash transform me into something you oppose in your street"?.well a cara when you have your home and street turned into an open prison, while you and your neighbours have to endure the abusive and sectarian insults ,remember the five finger insults on the Ormeau rd, or having to watch people carrying banners and bands who pay tribute to a murderer like the late Brian Robinson,march past the very spot of his vile deed,it would be a fool who wouldnt expect opposition, that is why this statelet failed and failed miserably, instead of reaching out to their neighbours ,organisations like your orange order and the unionist leadership made sure the people were kept segerated.the very fact that this state was formed by the threat of force and against the will of the majority of this island points to who is the guilty party in the segeration debate,its a wonder that the unionist party didnt call itself sinn fein mk 2 they really were ourselves alone and not a taig about the place in jobs, housing, civil service,etc, I suppose that lady who recieved the beating out by Antrim deserved what she got ,how dare she go about her lawful business when the boys are in town. a more thoughtful and innovative leadership is being actively encouraged,how more thoughtful can it be than to respect your neighbours and if it offends them to march past their homes,would,nt it be innovative to show that respect and leave them in peace you may be suprised what comes in return.Robert it can be no capitulation of civil liberties,when you allow your neighbours theirs.ReplyDelete
Robert, Castle Street seems to anger you! Why do you keep referring back to it? To be honest it goes deeper than anger when I see them marching, I actually feel sick.ReplyDelete
It takes me back to when I was young and we were just absolutely surrounded by their vile tirades.
I depised them then and I despise them now, it does not matter what people like Mc Guinness say, they are nothing to do with my heritage.
Good evening my nemesis from days of yore.
"I see you are the lion for a day roaring at the sheep."
More like the shepherd getting his head done in by the bleating of the lambs!
"the very fact that this state was formed by the threat of force"
Not to many states that have'nt been.
Those marching do not dictate security operations or condone people being hemmed in anywhere. Where does the offence end old chap? Parades today something else tomorrow. We can work this out but the answer won't be found in trashing the place.
I clearly remember the Ormeau Rd incident and I also recall the Teebane incident that precipitated it.
He who sickens you conquers you
"To be honest it goes deeper than anger when I see them marching, I actually feel sick"
He who sickens you conquers you
Sorry to be the bringer of bad news but your sickness looks like becoming a very prolonged illness. Maybe you and Marty could get the auld PA and head down to Castle St and let of abit of steam?
'We oppose Roman Catholicism not Catholics'--Táin Bó & Robert, half the island's grown-ups, once baptized in the local parish's font, would agree with you by now, I bet.ReplyDelete
'We oppose Roman Catholicism not Catholics'
Try as I have to understand what or how you are trying to justify the above wording
For the life of me I cannot comprehend what you are saying .
How can you make such a nonsensical statement , as most of your fellow brethren would say about others “ they are inextricably linked “. How do you not see the insult this brings to Catholics is really hard to understand , maybe you are stupid and cant see the woods for the trees or maybe your blind sectarianism has completely taken over your commonsense that now every rant against other religions is normal to your everyday thinking . I completely condemn like most right thinking people that republicans or Catholics should not march into unwanted towns and villages and insult the locals.
I would imagine trying to negotiate with you would be like turning back the clock 400 years
Fionnchu only half?ReplyDelete
Robert I suppose thats what the bandsmen out the Antrim way were doing with that helpless woman just letting of a bit of steam! your co religionists are very fond of that kind of activity,remember Robert Hamill, mind you what harm! especially when the forces of law and order are willing to engage in all sorts of cover ups,must protect the boys after all!Standing up for ones principals is much more noble than cutting the penis of your victim and putting it in his mouth such heroic deeds that have been carried out by gods own!ReplyDelete
Robert we are back in whaterboutery again a cara, this state that was taken from the Irish by force ,was and could have been established by peaceful means using the ballot box,selfish and bigoted people ensured that did,nt happen.to somehow state that those who died in that bloodshed on the Ormeau rd were in some way butchered in justification for what happened at Teeban makes me very sad a cara,those people were innocent people,and I believe in any other part of the world those who carried out that action would now be facing a war crimes tribunal, the brutal action carried out by prm at Teeban was indeed brutal,by with the minor justification in that those men worked for the security forces and therefore brought themselves into the firing line the men on the Ormeau rd were in a bookies nothing else, and the subsequent orange parade with drunken hags waving five fingers in the air made the world see that your co religionists for the bigoted mindless thugs that they are. Parades today something else tomorrow, hardly the words from someone whose christian beliefs say stretch out the hand of friendship, more like the old siege mentality Robert,ReplyDelete
P.S. Robert "we can work this out,but the answer wont be found in trashing the place" you should remember that the next time if ever the parades comm give your mates a wrong call, the antics up the Springfield rd the othe year wasnt what I,d call rearranging the deck chairs!!ReplyDelete
'I clearly remember the Ormeau Rd incident and I also recall the Teebane incident that precipitated it.'ReplyDelete
A diaappointing reply Robert.
I'm wondering if the Muslim majority in Bradford had bonfires burning the Union Jack and demanding to march through whatever village they liked would Robert support them? It's not a wee bunch of Christian Irish men who cherish a British connection being decent and dignified here, it's sicko's who have no real sense of national identity and replace it with hate. If they're Irish people who want a political and economic connection with the UK then fair enough. But they don't exactly embrace democratic principles and never did since their arrival, it's self interest PERIOD.ReplyDelete
No one is conquered here, Stormont is full of dodgy taigs and the Protestant state must be a distant fading memory Robert. I've news for you too, it's only going to get worse for the Protestant exclusionists, no going back. Get a wee box of tissues, dry your eyes and get over it. OR JUST GET USED TO IT.
"Standing up for ones principals is much more noble than cutting the penis of your victim and putting it in his mouth such heroic deeds that have been carried out by gods own!"
UDR Sgt Brian Deacon 3rd March 1973was treated to the same fate by the IRA. What are we to deduce from our communities capacity for sickening barbarity? That none have been completely right or completely wrong. We attempt all to often to pretend that somehow 'we' are better than 'them' and 'our' suffering is greater than 'theirs'. The games we play with ourselves and others is all part of the human condition. When you accuse me of whataboutery it's your defence against my calling into question the 'we' and 'our', it's only 'them' and 'theirs' that transgress.
What disappoints you about that reply - does it represent something that dare not speak it's name?
"..maybe you are stupid"
Perhaps I am "Interested", but I seek not to hide that stupidity behind a nom de guere. Allow me to tip my hat in deference to your intellectual brilliance.
Yes my blind sectarianism has me fraternising with 'Taigs' everyday of the week.
"I would imagine trying to negotiate with you would be like turning back the clock 400 years"
Why allow yourself to respond in such circumstances. Perhaps my cretinism was too profound for you to resist?
Let me carry the 'load' for you. A clear distinction can and should be drawn between the historically foul and corrupt institution that is the Church of Rome and those it has hoodwinked, spiritually, financially and,as we are now too all aware, sexually. Appears ever decreasing numbers desire to be 'inextricably linked' with this.
It is the Pope's claim that he is Gods vicar, retains the keys to heaven and earth and is infallible amongst other false doctrine that is being objected to here not the laity's rights to adhere to such claims.
"I completely condemn like most right thinking people that republicans or Catholics should not march into unwanted towns and villages and insult the locals."
Very virtuous of you to concede a tradition and culture that does'nt exist as a trade off.
what disappoints me is that, if I understand you correctly, you were answering a criticism about the five fingered dance outside the bookies by coat trailers at an Orange march on the Lower Ormeau. You said it was 'precipitated' by Teebane. The coat trailing I am referring to not the attack on the bookies.
I posted a resonse to Roberts post Anthony and error 503 I think came up does that mean I will need to rewrite my postReplyDelete
Marty, that has been happening to me a bit as of late but not when posting. You are probably as well doing your comment in Word and then posting it in. That way it is savedReplyDelete
I understand the source of your disappointment now. No I was not suggesting that the insult was precipitated by Teebane but the shooting was. The atmosphere created by such incidents made such behaviour excusable in the minds of those delivering the insults. Having been the recipitent of similar moronic behaviour I have every sympathy with those who are aggrieved by such actions.
"..OR JUST GET USED TO IT"
Enjoyed your closing emphasis on my having to 'lump it'. What you would desire me to lump I have yet to ascertain.
As for Muslims marching in Bradford and burning the Union flag, certainly would'nt be on the next Ryanair to join them but I would support their right to march and burn wherever and whatever they wish. I seek no rights that I want to withhold from others on the basis of diversity.
"..the Protestant state must be a distant fading memory Robert."
Very much so Larry and good riddance. Slum housing, four to a bed and life on the poverty line, in the words of Macmillan, 'we never had it so good'. Could'nt lend me a tissue, alas your pointing out the nadir of auld Ulster has done for me.
I believe Orangemen should have the right to march on main public streets in towns and villages, but do you really think they should have the right to march through residential areas that oppose the march?
"We oppose Roman Catholicism not Catholics."
That's not really true: the Twelfth celebrates a victory of Protestants over Catholics and the accompanying subjugation of Catholics by Protestants. That is the underlying subtext to all the cant about celebrating parliamentary democracy and the Bill of Rights. In fact, the Order has a history of opposing the extension of these rights for Catholics, such as its opposition to Catholic emancipation in the 1820's. Also, the Order subverted the democratic will of the majority of people in Ireland when it helped scupper Home Rule on three occasions. So, yes, there are many Orangemen like yourself who do not discriminate against Catholics, but I believe the overall mindset of the Order is one that perceives Catholics as inferior, indolent and untrustworthy. Christian charity by the Lodges - in the form of letting Catholics use their halls - doesn't mean there is no prejudice there.
I couldnt rewrite that masterpiece again, like Richard Harris and his song Macarthur Park the line I dont think I can take it cause it took so long to bake it and I,ll never have that recipe again oh no.get yer lawers on the job Anthony the world was robbed,anyway much more interesting things have been happening to me,I met a girl in the park last night and there was an instant spark between us,a definite connection,her legs went to jelly and she fell at my feet!!these taser guns are well worth the money!!!ReplyDelete
"I believe Orangemen should have the right to march on main public streets in towns and villages, but do you really think they should have the right to march through residential areas that oppose the march?"
Any attempt to parade through a residential area that does not constitute a historical route would not garner any support or widespread participation. I am not aware of any parades that attempt to leave main thoroughfares. From our perspective the routes are main thoroughfares and civic centres. Demographically areas have changed but regardless of the creed or colour of those living along those routes we see no merit in abandoning communal areas. I do not deny that Nationalists have always resented our parades but equally the organised protesting and disorder has been manufactured. The raison detre of the Orange Order and marching bands is not coat trailing in Catholic estates.
Alfie the Twelfth celebrates a victory over the tyranny and arbitrary power of a monarch. Had that monarch been a Muslim supported by Irish Muslims we would still be celebrating and Nationalists would still be protesting. We would simply have morphed into anti-Islamists from anti-papists.
"Christian charity by the Lodges - in the form of letting Catholics use their halls - doesn't mean there is no prejudice there."
No but it is a stab in the heart of those who peddle the idea that our objections to the tenets of Roman Catholicism is all consuming and pervades our relations with Catholics if not our every waken hour.
A very generous estimation the number is probably higher with good reason after all the Church in the name of a Christian god has committed worse sins than fudging the numbers.
Undoubtedly Christendom has and always will be its own worst enemy as it is incapable of uniting Christians.
Sláinte mo chara
"I see you are the lion for a day roaring at the sheep."
I took a liberty and rearranged the quote from Elizabeth Kenny one I noticed you took the same liberty and changed “Those that sicken you conquer you”
Perhaps the good sister Kenny may not approve?
Then again maybe you are using the quote referring to the infantile mind?
Another well disguised insult in the verbal saber rattling.
Perhaps Marty will share some of his plum poteen at least after a swig your head may not be done in.
You have a full plate perhaps you should have said we oppose Papal corruption and are only enlightening our Catholic brethren to its inherent evil.
You afford me verbal craft that I sometimes aspire to but never achieve in this spat and others. I thought your quote was a take on Mussolinis', "Meglio un giorno da leone che 100 da pecora". It's better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep.
I fear the mention of 'enlightment' by an Orangeman would be more than many here could take. Are'nt you going to join the posse?
My understanding is that many of the routes of Orange marches pass through Nationalist/Republican residential areas. I don't see the fact that these are historical routes makes any difference. The appropriate route for any kind of march or parade is through the centre of a town or village, not through streets full of homes. I think such Orange marches are intrusive and really unnecessary. For the same reason, I think the Pope would have a right to object to a gay pride parade through the Vatican City, but not through Rome proper.
"The Twelfth celebrates a victory over the tyranny and arbitrary power of a monarch. Had that monarch been a Muslim supported by Irish Muslims we would still be celebrating and Nationalists would still be protesting."
Of course, Nationalists would be still protesting as the Twelfth would also indirectly mark the continued oppression of their ancestors. James may have been autocratic but he was trying to force a bigoted parliament to repeal the penal laws and concede civil and religious liberty to Catholics and Protestant Dissenters. This was the bone of contention between James and his parliament; it was the driving force behind his absolutist impulses. For these reasons, I don't think James was the demon portrayed by the Orange Order, nor do I think it is worth celebrating an event that led to increased rights for some but also extinguished the hope of liberty for others.
Oh dry yer eyes Robert a cara, aint no posse on your tail,you can dish it out as well if not better than most here, so if ye get a verbal clip now and again its no more than what you can expect especially now we have a wee hurling team up the heel an ankle,2026 boxing day cup final glentoran v linfied a close game played on a frozen pitch but none the less an exciting game of football, and the winners linfield by a point final score glentoran 1.7 linfield 1.8 !ReplyDelete
With 'half', I admit I was erring on the side of charity! My cradle Catholicism's own guilty imprint. Half my family's still devout, half of it's lapsed. I wonder how this tallies with other Fenians?ReplyDelete
But my point holds--how in an Ireland now disengaged from Catholicism the sectarian allegiances many of us have been raised with will or should endure. If 'Taigs' now are as disenchanted with the Pope as the Orangemen, that may unite us all finally after all. I wonder if a secular Ireland will erode these old 'loyalties' that divided us?
I fail to imagine many Irish would cheer the current pope compared to the visit of the former one. And even then, that was a dying cause, many there more for novelty than fidelity to the Holy See.
One stroll down the empty halls past dwindling photos of ordinands at Maynooth, as I took last year, sums up a lot as does Malachi O'Doherty's 'Empty Pulpits' book.
Robert, hiding out on this page are you?ReplyDelete
Lost the argument about your loyal brethren (paedo and BNP grandmasters) and Catholicism/ catholics mix up and the multiculturalists/ Klu Klux Klan!
So we are back to Castle Street, must be a real bone of contention with you.
Get used to the orangemen, never got used to cockroaches, even though I have seen plenty of them, so I doubt i'll get used to the Klan.
Fionnchu, I cannot speak for any of the other 'taigs' but I certainly was not raised with any sectarian allegiance.ReplyDelete
I did not learn about the 'other side' in my home, but rather from the red, white and blue kerbs and the 'Kick the Pope' which seemed to be forever being painted on our wall. We were not allowed into our local parks, pictures, public toilets. I was once asked by an elderly protestant neighbour to remove my swing and take it two lamps up to the catholic part of the street.
Then we we asked for equality of jobs, housing and votes they burnt us out.
Many innocent Catholics were brutally murdered here because of their religion.
I think this theory,lets all unite in a secular Ireland and blame it all on Rome, is overly simplistic and wrong.
Fionnchu. my family would very much be loyal to the catholic church I would dare I say be a black sheep,my own family kids that is, I dont know or care what if any religious beliefs they hold, during the height of the troubles and as far back as the war for independance the catholic church repayed Prefidious Albion for Maynooth by attacking republicans from the pulpit and at every given opportunity, and when the guns finally fell silent did,nt they weasel their way into a privileged position, this generation of republicans had to endure their insults as well but now we watch good buddies priests /psf/prm members having their pictures taken together on an almost daily basis,the point I,m making here is that no matter how much we witness falling attendances I bet the people will be triping over themselves to pay homage to the ex nazi, the fear of the power of the church has been deeply ingrained in the people here and I,m afraid it will take more than a few generations to erase that hold,ReplyDelete
Fair point Robert re the housing and shared social misery. Reminds me of my uncles bemusement when a protestant friend in his house for a beer or ten commented during discussions about thesocial similarities, " Aye but at the end of the day Patrick, when all's said and done, you're still only a Catholic".ReplyDelete
Comedy hour had arrived.
“I fear the mention of 'enlightment' by an Orangeman would be more than many here could take. Are'nt you going to join the posse?”
The path of Illumination is filled with shaded areas the voice of reason is often silenced when ones tradition and belief is offended it is the old case of two rights clashing.
Unfortunately I had to sell my horse in these shocking economic times so I cannot join the posse. I would balance it out as our dear friend Michael generally takes more flak he seems none the worse for wear.
As for Benito the lion hanging from meat hooks probably would have been a better sheep maybe he should have considered the fate of many Caesars.
yeah Robert and Lenny the lion had a mans arm up his ass all his life! geez some people just dont know when their well of eh Tain Bo a cara !ReplyDelete
I remember that so well. As children we used to love the 12th. It was colourful and musical. We used to collect the strawberries along the Lisburn Road. The Orangemen marching up there never gave a toss. The problem was always when they got to walk through a nationalist area. I used to live on the front of the Ormeau Road and can remember hand to hand fighting with the cops as they tried to beat me and my friends up our hallway so that the Orangemen could march. I was 14 at the time. I disliked the fact that I could be manhandled in my own home so that some one who did not live there could have the right to parade, wave flags and shout sectarian slogans
Civil liberties, right to assembly and the like are arguments that many republicans would agree with. But sometimes in life situations arise where people stand back and ask themselves is it right to exercise the right that they have. Quite often we pull back from exercising rights because they can produce results which are harmful and produce nothing but smug satisfaction and a sense of one-upmanship for the group or individual exercising the right. I have a right not to work after 5, 6 or whatever. Would I exercise that right if by walking off home someone would be distressed? I doubt it.
In my view the republican tradition would enable me to go to the sites where republican volunteers lost their lives and lay a wreath. Would I go up the Shankill surrounded by masses of security to carry it out at Frizzels? Definitely not. Too many people feel aggrieved and hurt by the material actions of Thomas Begley. And I have the opportunity to honour him elsewhere.
To me it is the same with the Orangemen. Why would they want to march in an area where they are viewed as hate riddled bigots and know that is how they are viewed? They can march elsewhere if they choose.
There is still a territoriality thing which drives them I think. And they have not been blessed (you might laugh at the term with some justification) with intelligent leadership. It walked them into every trap laid for them.
'UDR Sgt Brian Deacon 3rd March 1973 was treated to the same fate by the IRA.'
(The fate being, according to you the severing of the penis and having it put in his mouth).
Where is the evidence for this? I have never yet heard of an IRA operation where this happened or read an inquest report claiming that it happened.
In the early 70s it was often said about the victims of loyalists that this type of thing happened. But inquests tended never to report on it. In general I think it was a myth that grew legs and ran off into the distance before anybody checked it out.
There were tortures of various kinds. Jim Prior the SOS from 81 wrote that there was a particular brutality to loyalist violence not replicated elsewhere.
If it did happen, whether to Brian Deacon or anybody else, it was a despicable act for which there is not a shred of justification; not even mitigation.
I also have never heard of the IRA having mutilated someone in the manner that Robert suggested. However, there have been many allegations that, during interrogations, the IRA tortured those it suspected to be informers before killing them. That being said, loyalists were by all accounts more brutal and bloodthirsty than other belligerents in the Troubles.
How did Teebane precipitate the bookies killings? Because the UFF said so? But the UFF was killing Catholics in the Lower Ormeau Road from 1973. When it said that Eileen Doherty was killed for being in the guard of honour at the funeral of Jim Bryson it was lying. It killed her because she was an easy target: the first passenger into the taxi it hijacked. So what evidence other than the UFF saying it is there for the statement that the shooting was a direct consequence of Teebane?
I think it is a certainty that the IRA engaged in torture. I think it was limited but wrong. There were certainly enough at leadership level opposed to it. In later years it was very much frowned upon but there were still reports in newspapers and inquests (I think but cannot recall exactly) of evidence of torture. I think one of the better known cases was that of the three found dead in South Armagh around 1992. On top of that there is the question of punishmnt beatings - hard to deny they were not torture.
'As for Muslims marching in Bradford and burning the Union flag,
certainly would'nt be on the next Ryanair to join them but I would
support their right to march and burn wherever and whatever they wish.'
Even the Koran?
I had posted a response to Roberts claim re the execution /murder of SGT Brian Deacon but error 503 had it for lunch, anyway it was along the lines as Anthony has stated that it seems nobody remembers any inquest stating such horrific details, and as Anthony has stated the rank and file and supporters of the PRM would have been disgusted at such babaric actions, yes there was brutality within the PRM and this was mostly carried out by the security dept, now as we know headed by two brit agents John Joe and Scap,these boys given a free hand to play Englands dirty war and they played it with gusto.ReplyDelete
With regard to punishment beatings, I agree that they amount to torture. Yet if PIRA volunteers were expected by the republican community to act as a replacement police force in republican areas, then these volunteers didn't have too many options available to humanely punish criminals. I suppose one could argue that the terminus for rejecting PIRA punishment beatings, shootings and banishments is supporting the RUC, but how can one do this if one believes that the British presence in Ireland is illegitimate and that it should be opposed by force? By the way, what is your attitude to the PSNI, Anthony? Would you ever use it?
If torture is torture then that's it basically. It ceases to matter after that about a lack of alternatives. To support punishment beatings then puts a person in a position of supporting torture. This is all said with the benefit of hindsight and reflection.
I suppose if keeping hoods in check during a conflict is necessary then those doing it should at least do it in a military fashion, distasteful as it might be. During wars people get shot in the leg all the time but nobody argues that it is torture.
My attitude to the PSNI is that it is a British police force whose primary function is to protect the state it serves. I do not support it.
I think it should be used because of its multi-faceted character. What happens if a child goes missing or a woman is raped, or a man murdered? But when it was called the RUC it used for those purposes as well. Republicans were not in a position to handle these issues or child abuse etc.
I don't think I could have supported punishment beatings; the military-style approach you mention is indeed distasteful, but it's probably a more suitable method to deal with criminals in a conflict. Then again, I don't know if one can reasonably claim that being shot in the leg is any more humane than being beaten up. Not to be facetious, but if I was given the choice between being shot in the leg and going to jail for a few years, I think I'd take the bullet!
I view the state of Northern Ireland in the same way as Israel. In my view, both came into existence illegitimately, but the injustice in creating both states cannot be undone and both are established long enough in order to be recognised. Moreover, neither Israel nor Northern Ireland can be disestablished by force of arms without unacceptable levels of violence and human suffering. So, for these reasons, I recognise Northern Ireland and the PSNI, but, like you, I don't support them.
it was Camus who said even in destruction there is a right way and a wrong way. I think there is much to be said for that.
There are degrees of being inhumane and a violent act that is not torture is arguably less inhumane than a violent act that is. I think it is as much as can be said on it.
I don't see how we can fail to recognise NI and the PSNI. But what point is there in stating that if at the same time we say we do not approve of them?
I have to acknowledge their existence but do not endorse, legitimise or approve.
"Even the Koran?"
If Muslims wanted to burn it, especially the Koran.
"Oh dry yer eyes Robert a cara, aint no posse on your tail,you can dish it.."
I did'nt think it constituted a complaint but all the same I think I will continue to hide out here in 'Prodsville'. Just because I'm paranoid does'nt mean they're not out to get me.
'No but it is a stab in the heart of those who peddle the idea that our
objections to the tenets of Roman Catholicism is all consuming and
pervades our relations with Catholics if not our every waken hour.'
For those of us brought up with them, in and out of their houses as children, they in and out of ours, doing holiday van assistant to one of their B-Special Orange Order fathers, many of us do not have that notion of them. But Nuala is right when she outlines how our experience of the orange as an institution is shaped by its red white and blue mentality.
‘I did not learn about the 'other side' in my home, but rather from the red, white and blue kerbs and the 'Kick the Pope' which seemed to be forever being painted on our wall. We were not allowed into our local parks, pictures, public toilets. I was once asked by an elderly protestant neighbour to remove my swing and take it two lamps up to the catholic part of the street.’
That sums up the experience of many of us.
Yip Robert hate your neighbour, BUT dont forget to say grace!ReplyDelete
"Yip Robert hate your neighbour, BUT dont forget to say grace!"
Is our new found detente at an end or have you been reading Feeney in the Irish News again?
"But Nuala is right when she outlines how our experience of the orange as an institution is shaped by its red white and blue mentality."
That is basically the crux of the matter - the constitutional position of N.Ireland and those who have allegiance to the United Kingdom and declare it.
"I believe Orangemen should have the right to march on main public streets in towns and villages.."
"My understanding is that many of the routes of Orange marches pass through Nationalist/Republican residential areas. I don't see the fact that these are historical routes makes any difference"
What are now urban and residential areas were once rural and sparsely populated. The parade from Drumcree, for example, can trace it's origins to 1807. Your argument, if I understand it correctly, is that because a portion of that parade route has become and a Republican/Nationalist area the parade, which predates it's urbanisation by over a century automatically becomes 'intrusive and unnecessary'. The essence of your argument is therefore territorial. If I could draw on an analogy here it would be Anthony and friends annual commemoration of Brendan Hughes in the Cooley Mountains. If for instance in the future that area was to become populated and the resident's were to object to this assembly for any particular reason, by your logic that commemoration, becomes intrusive and unnecessary.
Robert, again you either miss or choose not to address the point.ReplyDelete
If people feel British, fine. I carry a British passport as well as an Irish one so I am hardly going to stand on principle. But it is the domineering sectarian manner in which it is expressed (where else in Britain is it expressed with such triumphalist gusto?)that Nuala homes in on.
What Nuala homes in on is a sense of personal victimhood. It was clearly demonstrated by her remarks regarding Carson. In the same manner the neighbour was an 'Orangeman'. I don't think I have missed or am avoiding anything - I'm just responding with a different opinion that you don't agree with.
a different opinion from my own per se causes me no difficulty. Meet them all the time. Opinions the same as my own can annoy me if expressed in a domineering fashion. See a lot of that also.
Nuala very much focuses on how a child growing up has a point of contact with a phemonenon which helps shape how that phenomenon is viewed thereafter. Her experience is a social one in that it is shared by many other nationalists.
I grew up with Protestant friends, saw B Specials in my home, not beating us but visiting my da and helping him out as he worked with them. Yet I ended up sharing Nuala's experience. It was not because of what I learned at home. It was not because of my childhood encounter with individual orangemen. It was because of the in your face, get behind your door, the Orange is passing mentality.
So simple really.
Robert a cara because we disagree doesnt mean the weddings of, the point Nuala Anthony and others have so so well said imo,is that your leadership in the orders have fostered a bitterness between the two communities,more than likely at the behest of the unionst party, after all it was the only way they could control this statelet and the people within,by the old divide and conquer, as for the argument re traditional routesi.e.,Garvaghy rd,I pointed out earlier mo cara the falsehood in that statement,when the order abandoned the main orange parade route in Andytown a senisible decision then and a pity those who took that decision didnt apply the same logic to the other few contensious routes, now one lump or two Robert,and stop plying the ostrich you know Nuala is right ,just say sorry and you can have a wack of cake,ReplyDelete
Hope ya dont think I,m domineering Anthony JUST because I,m always right heh heh lol ,just kiddingReplyDelete
My argument is based on the standard practice of other public celebrations, which are located in city centres and on the main streets of towns, not in residential areas. If the Cooley Mountains were to become a built-up residential area that objected to republican commerations, I think it would be appropriate and considerate of republicans to relocate these ceremonies since that could easily done. Things change. If your housing estate happened to have been built on the site of an old IRA ambush, don't you think you'd have the right to object to annual invasions of ex-IRA men traipsing past your doorstep? What is so important about the actual route of an Orange march anyway?
Robert, I did not perceive myself as a victim when I was young and I certainly do not think of myself as a victim now.ReplyDelete
As a child I did not understand the hatred that we received from our neighbours.
I did not understand why, I could not play in the park like some of my friends who were Protestants.
I remember standing with my da and watching them coming down Lawnbrook avenue with their faces partially covered and their crates and crates of petrol bombs. They were flanked by the B Specials and the RUC.
To me as a child, they looked every bit as menancing as the Klu Klux Klan must have done to the people in the Southern States of America.
The reason I never felt like a victim Robert was bacause, when I looked up at my da he never flinched he had no fear of them.
"My argument is based on the standard practice of other public celebrations.."
One size does'nt necessarily fit all, a standard format should not be imposed on anyone on the basis that another organisation or body conducts their festivities or celebrations in a particular form. The Apprentice Boys Of Derry, for example, have always followed your prescription in that their two annual parades are conducted within the city centre but that did'nt suffice either. Gerry Adams on his accomplishment revealed, "Ask any activist in the north, ‘did Drumcree happen by accident?', and he will tell you, ‘no'. Three years of work on the lower Ormeau Road, Portadown and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and in Bellaghy and up in Derry. Three years of work went into creating that situation and fair play to those people who put the work in. They are the type of scene changes that we have to focus on and develop and exploit"
"..when the order abandoned the main orange parade route in Andytown"
There is an old saying that where Orangemen dare not walk, Protestants dare not live. Where Andytown is concerned that principal worked in reverse.
With all that sand in my eyes I have gone of the cake, Go raibh maith agat.
A cara Robert DOH excuse me but I,m still trying to figure that one out,Anyway again Andytown was the main parade route ie Finaghy rd north and the orange abandoned that route so really a cara what is the problem about accepting that change happens as for the sand. my friends that the sands of time.AH the penny has just dropped a cara, makes no difference though if you stick to the principle of respect.ReplyDelete
Robert, how can you seriously equate an Orange Order march with a dignified commemoration?ReplyDelete
It is also a bit silly to come of with that rural, urban and population shift as well, because if we go back far enough they were never your lands, roads, towns, cities to walk through.
Practially everything you have 'here' was given to you curtesy of the plantation.
Thank you for enlightening me to what the crux of the matter is - us damn planters!
"thats the sands of time."
"Don't let the sands of time get into your lunchbox"
Robert, you are planters and that is what makes such a nonsense of you traditional route argument.ReplyDelete
"Practially everything you have 'here' was given to you curtesy of the plantation"
Practically evertything I have I worked for - nothing was handed to me on the basis of my religion or nationality.
This comment has been removed by the author.ReplyDelete
Robert, at last we have something in common, I have always had to work for anything I have as well.ReplyDelete
Having said that, you have to admit that this place, 'here' the North, was very much a Protestant State for a Protestant people.
I mentioned the plantation in response to your argument, that once upon a time, sparsely populated districts were the preserve of orange marches and it was the demographic shift that caused the problems (paraphrasing)
I was merely pointing out, that long before you ever walked those roads they belonged to the native Irish.
'If Muslims wanted to burn it, especially the Koran.'
Why the Koran any more than the Bible? Why burn any book?
On the Cooley event, while it is easy to make the case from where I am now not faced with it, I will confidently say that if the residents of Cooley did not want us to parade through their estate because they held us responsible for the death of Tom Oliver and therefore felt genuinely aggrieved I for one would not go. I would attend in a private capacity and not part of a general assembly. Same reason I would not go to an event to commemorate Thomas Begley on the Shankill. I would find an alternative venue to remember him.
Nationalist resentment at Orange marches long preceded Gerry Adams.
You are too funny to be domineering!
"I was merely pointing out, that long before you ever walked those roads they belonged to the native Irish."
The people wanting to walk those roads are not native?
"Why the Koran any more than the Bible? Why burn any book?"
It would never occur to me to destroy a book on account of disagreeing with it's content. My point was more in support of civil liberties than the burning of sacred texts.
I take your point about supporting civil liberties. I am just having difficulty finding these Orange marches against internment!!
I kinda think that used to be orange marches for interment Anthony !ReplyDelete
I kinda think you are right. But Robert has told us about the Orange Order merely standing up for civil liberties and that no liberty is lost if you defend the liberties of your opponent. If internment is not a denial of civil liberties ....ReplyDelete
What was the position of the Orange Order in relation to the suppression of these civil liberties? I guess they sought them suppresed. Can find no evidence of Martin Smyth using the 12th to denounce internment
Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't consider preventing Orange marches through residential areas to be a significant denial of civil liberties. Similarly, I don't think banning a nude gay pride parade through Robert's estate would be either! There are many minor circumscriptions of personal freedom in our society that we put up with in order that things may run smoothly. Allowing marches and parades - especially contentious ones - to be held only in the centre of towns and cities and not routed through residential areas seems to me a sensible and modest circumscription.ReplyDelete
Alfie a cara from a civil liberty point of view,I believe that the orange should march as often ,for as long as they wish ,but do so in their own residential back yards,as a matter of fact I,d bet if they did they may end pissing of their own communities,a naked gay parade in early December would be worth watching dont ya think!ReplyDelete
It would indeed, Marty!ReplyDelete
"Can find no evidence of Martin Smyth using the 12th to denounce internment."
Unionism in general would have supported internment as you will be aware - perhaps more the rationale than the horlicks that it became.
"I don't think banning a nude gay pride parade through Robert's estate would be either!"
I think you have wrongly concluded that I would support the banning of a gay pride parade in my area on the basis of my dislike of homosexual practises. My opinions and beliefs do not provide a basis upon which the celebration of others sexual orientation or life choices should be banned, curtailed or removed to designated areas. There may be a historical or tradional reason why they want to process through my area. Their nudity may even have a cultural significance to them but is offensive to me. That Alfie, is the pain of living in a increasingly diverse and multi cultural society. The urge may be to ban but the victory is to tolerate.
Robert, I too support civil liberties, but I believe that there should be sensible limits on them. That is why I think that marches and parades should be obliged to process through the centre of towns and villages, and that they should not be allowed through residential areas, at least not without residents' consent. I have yet to encounter a convincing explanation why the historical route of an Orange march is such an essential part of it that the march cannot be rerouted to avoid residential areas.ReplyDelete
"The urge may be to ban but the victory is to tolerate."
Would you tolerate a man masturbating in the street outside your house? Would you support the right to have sex in public toilets and parks?
Which means the Orange Order and Unionism supported the wide spread abuse of civil liberties.
"Would you tolerate a man masturbating in the street outside your house? Would you support the right to have sex in public toilets and parks?"
We appear to have gone off on a tangent. The toleration I refered to was in regard to groups we may not like but they or their behaviour do not constitute an illegality. I have'nt encountered anyone advocating either of the above as civil liberties.
"Which means the Orange Order and Unionism supported the wide spread abuse of civil liberties."
I think what they were supporting was the internment of those, who they were informed and believed, were responsible for terrorism. A parallel would be those who supported the invasion of Iraq on the basis of government information regarding WMD.
regardless of what they allowed themselves to believe they supported the violation of the civil liberties of people against whom there was no evidence, who were brought before no court, and who had no recourse to a justice system that operated on the civil liberty principle of innocent until proven guilty. Civil liberties amongst other things amount to the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial. The Orange Order supported the systematic and systemic abuse of civil liberties.
My point is that we as a society place limits on civil liberties. If you think about it, the laws against nudity and sex in public are rather arbitrary; the people engaging in such acts are not directly infringing the rights of others, their crime merely being one of offending our societal notions of common decency. Still I support the laws against these behaviours because I think a society has a right to set its own cultural norms and that these norms can prevent conflict and anarchy, though I also believe that the laws which outline these norms should not be unduly restrictive and that any limits on personal freedom ought to be moderate and sensible. I view marches and parades from the same mindset: allow them to take place in proper public spaces like town centres, but prevent them from passing through residential areas. That seems sensible to me. I would say the same thing about republican, civil rights or gay pride marches as I would about the Orange Order ones.
"Civil liberties amongst other things amount to the freedom not to be imprisoned without trial."
The freedom not to be imprisoned without trial to my mind is superceded by the right to life and the responsibility of government to protect life. Had those who murdered Eileen Doherty on the Ormeau Rd been interned prior to her killing would you experience any reservations? That as I see it was the basis of support for internment. You may have never considered this but it may be an abuse, as you see it, that you and those dearest to you may depend on in the future.
which means the Orange Order do not support civil liberties at all. The point I was trying to get to and to where your comment has led us. It defends the idea that it is somehow just to trample over nationalists, whose civil liberties it vehemently opposed when it backed internment.
Should the loyalists who killed Eileen Doherty been interned without trial prior to killing her? Most definitely not. It is that mentality that republicans oppose Robert. And it would have meant we did not oppose internment but only the manner in which it was applied. Moreover, I have no memory of the Orange Order calling for loyalists like Eileen Doherty's killers to be interned. In fact if I am right such people were welcome into the ranks of the Order. Was Basher Bates of the Shankill Butchers a member?
But you know all this already Robert. And given your willingness to discuss and explore, it might be you who in the future makes a decision to move away from where you are now.