Empty Pulpits

Resignation and frustration are spreading rapidly among both the clergy and the active laity. Many feel that they have been left in the lurch with their personal needs, and many are in deep distress over the state of the church. In many of your dioceses, it is the same story: increasingly empty churches, empty seminaries and empty rectories. In many countries, due to the lack of priests, more and more parishes are being merged, often against the will of their members, into ever larger “pastoral units,” in which the few surviving pastors are completely overtaxed. This is church reform in pretense rather than fact! – Hans Kung, 2010

The dissident Swiss theologian’s complaint had been aired in book form by Malachi O Doherty although there it was made as an observation rather than a complaint. Empty Pulpits sets out to provide an explanation for the Irish dimension of the trend Hans Kung has identified.

I am not sure what I expected from this book, probably more than I got. Long a fan of O’Doherty’s scepticism I had anticipated the excoriation of religious belief, yet the expected polemic against religious faith simply was not there. This is not the author’s fault; rather the result of my having sought something that it was not his intention to provide. What O’Doherty served up was a critical treatise on certain religious practices, procedural beliefs and articles of faith combined with an explanation as to why organised religion in Ireland is now blighted, blessed I might offer in paradoxical style, with institutional malaise. O’Doherty does not emerge from this book as an atheist, certainly not an ardent one. If anything there is a sense that he hopes to be persuaded that there just might be something beyond the grave, rather than succumb to the poet Philip Larkin’s bleak characterisation of ‘the sure extinction that we travel to.’

O’Doherty’s opening gambit is the claim that Ireland is losing its faith at a rate unequalled by its European partners. That this is a strange ploy becomes evident on the opening page where it is argued not that faith per se is being lost but that there is a collapse in the religious orders: belief in a god is not diminishing significantly, people are simply getting by without being shadowed by it.

This is not the type of belief that the clerics want; it limits their ability to interfere in the lives of people otherwise not disposed toward paying clerics any attention. Clerics don’t want people to merely think that a belief in god is crucial, but to think that clerics are crucial to sustaining that belief. Yet it is clear that they must contend with a central theme of Empty Pulpits: people believe but do not belong.

Where religion is on the up, O’Doherty makes the point that it is rooted in those religions based on the promise of hell for the sinner. Those promoting love seem not to compete as well in the market of superstition. To be successful religion must ally with hatred.

I found the reasons for the emptying pulpits less engaging than some of the arguments Empty Pulpits engaged in. For example, religion is taken to task for its insistence that secularism cannot be the source of a moral code.

One of Ireland’s leading Catholic moral theologians Vincent Twomey is quoted:

Virtue finally needs faith in God to flourish. Trustworthiness is not exclusive to believers but it is rarely found in abundance outside faith communities. Atheism is not an option for a healthy state or healthy democracy.

Twomey then extrapolates from this that there is one moral code which Benny the Bad shall decide upon. Unsustainable bunkum which is laid bare by O’Doherty as such. He summed up the ridiculous Catholic position in one telling sentence: ‘better that unwanted children be born than that someone somewhere should be masturbating and feeling good about it.’ What moral code, other than a bad one, could grow on those founds?

O’Doherty cites a Fr Moloney who complains that those who want religion eliminated from society will take solace from the fact that priests in Ireland are dying out. Moloney completely misses the point about what it is that should be eliminated. Religion should not be squeezed out of society anymore than science fiction. People should be free to believe, or disbelieve, whatever they want. If people want to worship the devil, fine, likewise with any other deity. As Walfa Sultan suggested they can worship rocks if they please as long as they don’t stone the rest of us with them. Religion simply should have no input into the lives of people who do not want it. As Michael McDowell once said canon law should have no greater status than the rules of a golf club. Religion should not be allowed any special status that would permit it leverage over the lives of others within society. It is the enforcer status of religion that should be eliminated not the belief itself.

Empty Pulpits explores the collapse of respect for religious opinion. It presents an image of bishops – now the ‘last dictatorship in Christendom' - touring their dioceses in the 1960s where they were greeted by adoring crowds. Today by contrast they might be stoned. That would make a change from clerics doing the stoning.

This implosion of respect, Empty Pulpits links to the relentless raucous criticism thrown religion’s way by the New Atheists represented by Richard Dawkins et al. O Doherty finds nothing in New Atheism that was not already there in the last century, thinking that it floats on the high tide of Islamic fundamentalism; that after 100 years of reflecting on Darwin there should be something to show for it other than restating that there is no god. Dawkins, however, cannot be reduced to such a simplistic schematic. The celebrated author of The God Delusion and many other works knows there is no god and rather than merely try to prove it has applied his thinking to the reasons that people continue to hold religious beliefs.

In assaulting the New Atheists O’Doherty is too simplistic, approvingly quoting Alexander Chancellor who claims that non-believers feel guilty about their non-belief and are in need of constant reassurance. The mutual reassurance spawned is supposed to push up the sales of books despite there being nothing new under the sun within their pages.

However, it seems an insupportable contention that humanist writers like Dawkins and Daniel Dennett have failed to come up with novel insights into religion. Dennett’s innovative work on consciousness is absent from major works by Old Atheism writers such as Durkheim and Darwin. Perhaps put off by what he perceives as the arrogance of Dawkins, O’Doherty appears unwilling to delve deeper into what motivates the modern humanist thinkers and opts for the easy put down. New Atheism we learn may be nothing other than a ruse for annoying believers. Where true it can only explain a miniscule amount of the dynamic behind the flourishing of humanism. In his insinuation that Dawkins enjoys annoying people O Doherty must realise that this type of gibe has often been thrown his own way on spurious grounds in retaliation for his challenging take on situations not appreciated by all. It is disappointing that he should seek to arm his own critique of New Atheism with it.

In arguing that the next big clash between religion and science will take place on the battlefield of consciousness, Empty Pulpits seems far removed from its earlier suggestion that New Atheism offers nothing new. Daniel Dennett is at the forefront of this battle, yet is barely considered in this work.

Moreover, religion, O’Doherty contends, gets beaten every time it argues with science. Yet those who play a crucial part in science are New Atheists like Richard Dawkins. In many ways it is in Dawkins’ simple comment that ‘planes fly witches don’t’ that the triumph of science is so concisely articulated.

Empty Pulpits throws up the challenges the articulation of religious belief confronts by making light of the arguments put forward by two of its more prominent Catholic advocates, David Quinn and John Waters. The book makes the very simple point that Dawkins has more chance of understanding what lies behind the big bang from science than David Quinn has from reading the bible. Although this is more an argument against bible based beliefs in god than a belief per se.

In what may prove startling for some Empty Pulpits tackles the hypocrisy with which the case against abortion is pressed.

Ireland has always wanted rid of inconvenient babies and has always inflicted huge pain, if not actual death on daughters and their babies, in pursuit of this … There are folksongs about how to get rid of the changeling, the sickly child that the fairies had left with you in exchange for your own bright healthy baby. If you put it on the fire it would leap up the chimney and your real child would return. And if that didn’t work at least you had killed only a fairy, and one who had already been rejected by its own.

One argument that does not persuade is that Sikhs should be allowed to wear their turban if they are Garda. O’Doherty claims that the turban is a cultural thing. No more so than a Garda wanting to wear a Liverpool hat. Why elevate one cultural symbol? There is no reason for one culture to trump another in a societal rather than a sectional institution ostensibly serving the whole of society.

It is hard to find fault with the contention of Empty Pulpits that ‘the great evil that the church inflicted on societies was the curtailment of free thought and imagination.’ This is a typical trait of the totalitarian mind which on occasions unites totalitarians more than it divides them, hence the totalitarian Left embracing totalitarian Islam in a crude symbiotic dance that saw the balance within the totalitarian symbiosis shift increasingly to the totalitarian side of the equation and way from the Left.

In his closing words the author claims that while few are going to ask guidance from a few lonely celibate old men on how to be happy, the rest of us don’t know the answer. There is no answer towards which the teleological march can progress. The search for one at some point invites the imposition of an answer. The metanarrative resulting from that is too terrifying to contemplate. Grand attempts to perfect humankind have merely shown how imperfect it is at root.

Empty Pulpits – long may they remain as such.

Empty Pulpits by Malachi O'Doherty. Gill & Macmillan. Dublin: 2008

84 comments:

  1. Mackers, as a believer I do not know whether empty pulpits are a good thing or not.

    I am very aware of the adverse impact that religion has had on so many peoples' lives.

    I do believe however, that religion should be given its space in society.

    I think the rise in secularisation has been responsible in part for the loss of community.

    I also think we have become more Protestant i.e. more individual in how we practice our faith.

    Totally understand peoples hang ups and misgivings about religion,
    'opium of the people' and all that, however, I believe it would be a sad scenario if it were to disappear all together.

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  2. Nuala,

    it is given space. My position is that it should be forced out of the space it tries to colonise but which belongs to society. It should have no role in education nor should there be any privilege for a religious perspective. Religion is just an opinion, same as any other. People's right to hold an opinion should be respected but it does not follow that the opinion held should be respected.

    The 'loss of community' as you see it might coincide with the rise in secularism but I doubt if there is a causal link.

    There is a book just out which I read about today - Society Without God. It is a study of Scandinavia and the author argues that society functions quite well without religion. He refers to cultural religion rather than spiritual religion. But secular ideologies often function as religions do.

    More Protestant! Not sure if that is suggested as a criticism. Seems a good thing in my view.

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  3. Enjoyed that Anthony,one question you may be able to answer for me is what is new atheism,as someone who regards himself an atheist,i.e, one who doesnt believe in deities, what then can new atheism teach or did I miss something,Alexander Chancellors statement that non believers feel guilty about their non belief and in need of constant reassurance, its not something I feel or need

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  4. Marty,

    New Atheism is just the label given to the latest batch of writers who have picked up the baton of previous waves of atheists, waged polemic and critique and who have made the issue central to societal debate. The main ones are Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris.

    I think the science based critique of New Atheism is what gives it a clear edge on previous eras. Not that the earlier was opposed to science but because science has progressed so much. The work on DNA, genes, and consciousness all serve to make a supernatural explanation of life redundant.

    New Atheism in my view simply cannot be reduced to a phenomenon that reiterates that there is no god.

    Just my view - no authority on the topic by any stretch.

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  5. Nuala I agree with Anthony religion is just an opinion and therefore people are entitled to believe what they want, but as we witness the corruption and arrogance of the catholic church surely the sooner its confined to the dustbin of history the better, you have I believe had teaching practice,did you have to undertake religious studies to get your post or did you not play ball and opt out of the catholic education system their loss if you did hon ,I stated before here hon there was no priests in star trek, I see that the bill for the popes visit is going to be around £12 million I suppose it,ll be worth it if it keeps the kids safe for a few days

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  6. thank you a cara thats clear , I,m a big fan of Dawkins,what a mind.

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  7. "One argument that does not persuade is that Sikhs should be allowed to wear their turban if they are Garda." What are the difficulties with Sikhs wearing their turbans when they are police? They can have a badge and insignia to show they are police or Garda. One of their prophets directed the Sikhs to wear the turban so does that not mean it is a 'religious' rather than merely 'cultural' item?

    We might be atheists or agnostics but surely we should tolerate other peoples' religious beliefs.

    If it doesn't harm anyone why can't people follow the tenets of their religion?

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  8. AM, glad you weighed in on this. I know you read "I Was a Teenaged Catholic" and "The Telling Year" from Malachi, as did I, and enjoyed them. "Empty" represents a logical advance joining M's earlier rejection of a Hindu guru's example with his analysis of beliefs in Irish society. I agree with your take on M O'D's overlooking Dennett (as many who sum up the neo-atheists do) for if he had, he might have found stronger support for his position.

    That "Society Without God" relies on Phil Zuckerman's 170-odd interviews with secularized Scandinavians. But reading today about the 45,000 Muslims in the Swedish city of Malmo some of whom to support the Palestinians going ahead and persecuting the 750 Jews there, I do wonder about the entry into a rather too-tolerant polity of those determined to replace liberal skepticism with archaic fanaticism. Christopher Caldwell's "On the Recent Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West" reviewed by me is a wake-up call about the erosion of European values by those who will not assimilate to what are weakening secular values that Westerners assume will remain strong rather than them trying to make them so, in the face of fundamentalists and traditionalists determined to spread Muslim ways worldwide.

    I must say, walking the empty halls of Maynooth last autumn and viewing the dwindling photos of the year's ordinands so dramatically since the start of the 90s, when the backlash began to kick into high gear, sums up so much about the decline. I have no idea how priests will be recruited unless they're desperate Nigerians or Indians. As poverty ebbs, so do vocations. The second sons from the farms find other careers.

    Great review; for comparison from last October, here's my review of "Empty Pulpits".

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  9. Simon,

    I think it is important to tolerate religion. It is equally important not to privilege it. Why should a religious symbol be given a preferential status over a footballing one? Those who display either may have the same passion towards what it is they support. One supports invisible men and the other visible men. Why exalt and give preference to the invisible? Treat both sets of opinions the same. A PSNI member should have the same right to wear a Rangers scarf as she should have to wear a burka on duty. In my view they should have the right to wear neither.

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  10. Mackers, Aldrige who I presume is a Sociologist wrote a book called' Religion in a Contemporary world'

    In the book he argues that Catholics have become more Protestant in how they worship God.
    One example he gives of this, is many Catholics now tend to worship in private rather than attend mass.
    Another example he uses is, that Catholics now are less integrated and more individual about prayer.

    Personally I think his second point just sounds like a reiteration of the first.

    Can't get too much past you!!!!

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  11. Nuala ....The lord made man in the garden of Eden,..Then said to himself there,s something he,s needin...After casting around for a suitable pearl,he was messing around and created a girl...Two beautiful legs so gorgeously slender,to carry a treasure ever so tender..two shapely hips to increase his desire,all rounded and firm to bring out the fire...Two lovely breasts,so full and proud,command his eyes as he whispers aloud....Two willing arms just aching to bless him,two loving hands to soothe and caress him...Soft cascading hair hung over her shoulder and two dreamy eyes to make him grow bolder...Twas made for a man just to make his heart sing. Then he added a mouth ......Ruined the thing!!!!!!!

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  12. AM- The reason why a turban should be given a greater status than a football item of clothing is the people who wear the turban believe it is essential for them to wear it in order for them to achieve recognition spiritually.

    It is more understandable if you are annoyed because you believe your "spirit" is harmed than your right to display your football allegiance. In their minds it is a greater loss to themselves to not wear the turban than for the football fan. I don't think the quality of the passion is the same although the quantity might be.

    This qualitative difference is due to the religious follower's belief in a deity which gives them more rights legally. They are given rights enforceable by law to prevent discrimination and although discrimination through dress-codes might be the less harmful than other forms it is important to prevent the slippery slope into abuse and harassment.

    There are many passions out there that don't have the protection of anti-discrimination laws. Most of these unprotected passions you can control to a greater extent than race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religious belief or age.

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  13. Consider this as a possibility:

    What If Dominant Islam replaces Judeo-Christianity as it's fundamental character, it's sentiment toward women, the moral nature of the majority...what ethos then? - > read Qur'an 9:29
    "...and feel themselves subdued."

    reb
    ___ ___

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  14. LOL I just sent our Larry this line and up pops old snakeoil himself!! I love the smell of napalm in the morning!!!! thank f##k we only grow spuds here or the place would be crawling with snake eyes mates!!

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  15. "There is no answer towards which the teleological march can progress. The search for one at some point invites the imposition of an answer. The metanarrative resulting from that is too terrifying to contemplate. Grand attempts to perfect humankind have merely shown how imperfect it is at root."

    Anthony,

    I wasn't quite sure if the final paragraph was a summary of O'Doherty's conclusions or your own views. In any case, I think it underestimates the scope of scientific research currently ongoing.

    Looking back to Spinoza, there remains an ultimate distinction between matter and thought, a barrier for physicalists and opportunity for religions. Even with the projects at CERN and with neural networks, many lapsed Christians would be happy to say that it's somewhere within thought and emotion that the soul is to be found.

    But even this is coming apart. You can see an article on the fabrication of artificial emotion in today's Guardian. The thought processes of neural networks are already hugely advanced. Very soon, we'll have robots that think and feel, suffer and deduce the right sort of kindness to offer. Which leaves the human dominion on Earth in tatters. For my part, I understand both as equivalent to forces with the organs as matter, the ensemble being the product of evolution. Which touches on the question of what Darwinism has given us. A possible solution to the endemic misery of isolated old people isn't a bad start.

    We're getting very close to an absolute physicalist explanation that will allow us to deduce a corresponding ethics. That deduction can be a democratic process and by nature unfinishing, there's no risk of totalitarianism.

    Which still leaves us with Spinoza's preferred intuitive knowledge. So maybe Taoism will be the last remaining 'religion'.

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  16. Marty, I did not have to teach religion, however, when my son went to St Mary's I had to sign a consent form saying I agreed with the Catholic ethos of the school, which I did not. Although I signed the form I remember feeling very compromised and uneasy.

    Ironically he left school a confimed atheist and as far as I am aware has remained that way.

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  17. Told ya he was a good lad Nuala,

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  18. Fionnchú I have copies of "I Was a Teenage Catholic" and "The Telling Year" from Malachi. You probably saw them in the home library and presumed I had read them.

    I appreciated your recommendation on "Society Without God". These works are essential reading for people like me who have no religious belief.

    You did a great review of Christopher Caldwell's "On the Recent Revolution in Europe: Immigration, Islam and the West". It is crucial that such work is read. It enhances our understanding even if we query much of it and the conclusions reached. I detest the censorship lobby that levels racism as a censorious device. I will shortly read your review of "Empty Pulpits". Thanks.

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  19. Nuala,

    'Another example he uses is, that Catholics now are less integrated and more individual about prayer.'

    I think that shows how the religious cement that binds people is loosening but it only one of the bonds. Many dimensions exist to a community and community itself is visualised or imagined as Anderson argued.

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  20. Mackers, I don't believe you have read this book! Is there no hiding place?
    Going to have to read through it again as I could quite possibly be quoting Durkheim.
    This is what happens when you quote from memory, hope it is a lesson to Marty!

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  21. Every day is a lesson to me Nuala hon.

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  22. it's a perplex situation some-time's, the number of catholic's
    or x catholic's who alway's complain about the catholic faith,
    then turn up at catholic funeral's
    or catholic mass at wedding's
    people have a right to do what they want,im just on about the facts in life that we come accross.

    i hate people who say you HAVE to
    do this, or you HAVE to believe in this or behave this way, to see the look of shock in their eye's
    when they are told to fcuk of is
    one of the best sight's in life.

    i belief because i want to, the world's full of those who are for their god, or against, or those who don't care any-more,
    it's those don't cares that i try to avoid,

    religion in the dictionary mean's
    a belief in god, or god's, who is
    on their knee's to more than one god,
    catholic religion is about belief
    but after our last breath i can't
    see anybdy go up-stairs just because of mass attendance.

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  23. michaelhenry,
    what do you reckon Gerry's chances are of getting in to heaven, given that he has lied about everything for years?

    Think he was sort of depending on the mass attendance one to swing it for him!

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  24. god knows what is going to happen at the perry gates, sorry, pearly,
    fionnuala,

    it's up to yer man above, or woman
    or being,
    if GERRY is going to have a problem getting in then there is not much hope for the rest of us.

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  25. I see the ex nazi has given all the good Catholics in Ireland a two finger salute, by retaining those two bishops,if the disgusting letter wasnt a big enough insult, he then punishes the loyal people of his church by snubbing them on his visit to this part of the world.but for £300 + you can see the fucker in England as Catherine Tates character would say "what a fuckin liberty".an 80 year old woman in Cork is urging mass goers to have mass boycott in September in response to the churches handling of clerical child sex abuse, personaly I burn the b###ards in their churchs but withholding their weekly allowances may be just as effective.

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  26. Michaelhenry,

    people turn up at wedding and funeral masses out of respect for the family of the deceased not because they respect the church. But there are those cases where confirmed atheists have been buried from the chapel. They never renounced their atheism. It always left me wondering.


    Simon,

    'people who wear the turban believe it
    is essential for them to wear it in order for them to achieve
    recognition spiritually.'

    That goes to the crux of the argument. It is just a belief. Society should respect the right of people to have beliefs but not make special circumstance for the beliefs they have.

    'It is more understandable if you are annoyed because you believe
    your "spirit" is harmed than your right to display your football
    allegiance.'


    Only by making special circumstance for the belief. Many people believe in their nation like others believe in their religion. Millions have died for both over the course of history. But a Swedish guy in the guards should not be able to wear a Swedish cap badge no matter how strongly he holds his beliefs.

    'the religious follower's belief in a deity which gives them more rights legally.'

    This is true but a serious problem which should be addressed. People should be protected on the grounds of being black or white, aged, disabled or gender or whatever, but their beliefs should not be protected over the beliefs of others; merely their right to hold them.

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  27. Thanks for noticing the book.I take the point about the irony of me accusing Dawkins of insincerity and indulgent mockery after I had been accused of it myself.
    I am not a convinced 100% atheist and I don't think that is a failing in me or in the book, but those who are feel let down by my agnosticism and see it as half hearted or a cop out.
    It is the only response I can honestly manage to the mystery of consciousness. The horror I feel in the prospect that natural selection accounts for self consciousness derives from the logic that selection on sexual advantage or survivability need never have taken account of how we face old age and death and attuned us to do it well; nature has no investment in our deaths.
    And Dawkins does kind of throw away his argument when he says that we have somehow outgrown the selfish replicator and somehow stumbled upon altruism, though Pinker has arguments for altruism that derive from natural selection.
    But I see the evolution of religion away from power mongering institutions laying down the law towards an emphasis on the subjective reflection on experience - away from needing to account for the material world and towards thinking symbolically about meaning - as a good thing. That is what the book was trying to say.

    Malachi.

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  28. Malachi,


    I don’t really think it is anybody's place to feel let down by your position on agnosticism. I don't think it is a cop out. It is what your deliberations allow you to arrive at and feel true to your own intellect. Many intelligent people believe in god - reading Norman Mailer's On God at the minute. Hans Kung has a brilliant mind. They cannot intellectually accept a godless universe. I just cannot reconcile myself to the notion of a creator god and for that reason am not agnostic. I doubt if natural selection can explain everything. I dislike the one size fits all mentality. And Dawkins puzzles me for the reasons you point out. Yet I experience no horror at the thought. I remain certain that there is a natural rather than a supernatural explanation for consciousness. Nature has an investment in our deaths in that nature is life and something incapable of dying is by the same token incapable of life. Something that never died has never lived. A paradox I know. Like much else I suppose.

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  29. AM- A Swedish guy's nationality doesn't require him to wear a Swedish cap badge. The Sikh religion requires the turban. It doesn't interfere with the job and looks functional when the police badge is attached.

    As for merely allowing a person the right to hold religious beliefs but giving no further protection. Well a Muslim or a Catholic or a Protestant or a Jew allowed to believe might not get a job because of a bigoted employer or might not get certain goods or services simply because of their religion. That is unfair.

    You say people should be allowed to only hold their belief well surely they should be allowed to practice their belief also if it is reasonable?

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  30. Malachi,

    "The horror I feel in the prospect that natural selection accounts for self consciousness derives from the logic that selection on sexual advantage or survivability need never have taken account of how we face old age and death and attuned us to do it well; nature has no investment in our deaths."

    If I understand your concerns correctly, I might have some relevant thoughts. Comparing two groups, one in which death is simply accepted whenever and however, the other in which death is treated as the frustration of potential for either reproduction or contribution to group welfare, I think it predictable that the latter will start to take positions on what makes death more or less tolerable and better prosper. Perhaps a murderer or a hermit's passing will be less regretted than that of a nurse or a political leader. A child's death will be felt more, emotions will thus evolve more and a person who kills a child will be seen as antipathy to the group ethics.

    I think evolution that didn't take account of death and ritualise it would be strange to conceive of.

    On Dawkins's altruism, if someone without the mens rea kills, we don't convict him/her of murder like you or I would be. Acts take on an added significance, often taken to be specifically human, when committed in consciousness.

    I think, I may be wrong, Dawkins wanted to say that until we understood evolution and the indifference of nature, we could give the appearance of kindness, but we could never achieve the level of consciousness necessary to take the credit equivalent to the condemnation we can ascribe in recognition of 'mens rea'.

    On agnosticism, the idea of de Tocqueville, who said "I consider doubt one of the greatest miseries of our nature" probably has much truth in a post-Catholic society. For me though, Bertrand Russell's works, for example, are infinitely more comforting than the Bible.

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  31. Damian theres more begating in the bible,and sex sells!!

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  32. Empty Pulpits.

    Marty,

    I guess it raises the very question of papal infallibility and the presumed existence of god. Only a deeply flawed god could confer infallibility onto Benny the Bad

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  33. Damian,

    the final paragraph was my own take.

    While I have not followed the Guardian piece nor familiarised myself with the associated discussion I am still of the view that attempts to perfect will lead to totalitarianism. In my view that is the historical experience. Attempts to improve are radically different.

    I could be wrong but I doubt if ‘We're getting very close to an absolute physicalist explanation that will allow us to deduce a corresponding ethics.’ Have we not seen this sort of claim made before only to be frustrated? Was Hawking not involved in some attempt to achieve a theory of everything?

    Snake Hunters,

    We certainly don’t want that. But is it necessary to hold on to Christianity to stop it? Is there no alternative to a religious world?

    Nuala,

    I didn’t read the book! Didn’t mean to give you the impression that I had.

    ‘Although I signed the form I remember feeling very compromised and uneasy.’

    It’s called life! To get through we compromise others and are compromised in return. Try in as far as possible to compromise on the periphery rather than the core but things are never as simple. From we get up in the morning till we bed down at night the day is a compromise. There are 100 steps from principle to perfidy. Take no more than 49 and you will end up on the right side! It is all we can do.

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  34. Thanks for your response Anthony. Hawking was indeed and that's why, with my limited knowledge of the subject, I referred to the CERN project, which is with some success seeking the 'final' piece, the Higgs boson.

    Whether this is applied to the ends of a 'perfect will' is another question. I would hope not. It could equally be applied to an evolving conception of an 'übermensch', democratically agreed. It, along with developments in genetics and philosophy of mind, certainly seem to point in this direction.

    The application of this to human nature is obviously a mere foetus, but if you take my comment of an absolute physicalist explanation as relative to the knowledge we had a century ago, I think you'll agree that the method we use is enjoying more success than certain Churches.

    I can see, and to some extent share, your concern that a 'total' explanation should lead to a totalitarian politics or ethical system. But I think this not to be the case, primarily because of the possibilities of evolution, which ensure fresh debate and thus a need for debate to be structured according to much the same criteria we now have.

    I think, hope, the utilitarian consequentialist school will come to the fore as religion's demise continues. On that, you can see William Crawley let himself down interviewing Peter Singer, or a better interview by Bryan Magee on youtube, where Singer discusses Hegel & Marx. That should be reassuring, if not interesting.

    Incidentally, if you're atheist and not a physicalist, where do you position yourself?

    (As an aside, and not to be reductionist, on a thread called Now You Want to Hear From Them on Slugger, following some exchanges I tried to identify some categories of dissident opinion, with my own objections. I'd be very interested in any thoughts you or your readers had on them.)

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  35. Malachi,

    "And Dawkins does kind of throw away his argument when he says that we have somehow outgrown the selfish replicator and somehow stumbled upon altruism.."

    Dawkins throws it away from the outset. Encouraging others to atheism he keeps the getaway car running for his own escape from academia and the possibility of an afterlife,"..there is almost certainly no God" He is almost certainly not sure.
    Dawkins and Adams are kindred spirits - the pied pipers to peredition.

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  36. Robert,

    a getaway car - hardly Dawkins' position. While he said what you attributed to him he put it in perspective by saying there was almost certainly no flying celestial teapot orbiting the earth (not sure of the exact words). I think he was merely protecting himself against accusations of dogmatism.

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  37. Anthony,

    "I think he was merely protecting himself against accusations of dogmatism."

    Dawkins marshalls an array of argument but his hypothesis gives me the impression of one maintaining close proxcimity to an escape hatch. I think he is protecting himself against the ridicule that new evidence might bring.

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  38. Robert,

    new evidence seems to go the way of the atheists - that's the historical trend. Innovations in theology satisfy in the main theologians. New evidence that would validate religion - now that would be a miracle!!!

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  39. Simon,

    I am aware of this in relation to the Swedish guy. It was raised for hypothetical purposes. People motivated by nationalist ideas might just come up with that type of argument; that their nationalism demands of them certain things. There might not even be a Swedish guy in the Garda. The issue is whether nationalist ideas should be treated the same as religious ones. The problem remains of the elevation of religious opinion to a plateau above other opinions. Implicit in your view seems to be that there is something commandist or authoritative about religious requirements that should be deferred to by others who do not hold to the religion. A religion commands, for example, that a woman should wear a veil or a burka. Are we to then accept women wearing veils and burkas in the Garda?

    People's rights to hold beliefs need protected. Protecting people from job discrimination on the grounds of their belief is not a defence of the belief but a defence of the person.

    You extend the inference too far. I do not argue that people should only be allowed to hold their belief but not practice them. They can practice them - the question is one of where to practice. I believe that I have as much right to display a photo of my children on my cap as much as a Sikh has a right to wear a turban. I don't think I should have the right to wear that photo on duty as a garda (hypothetical again). There is no reason that I can see that a Sikh should have a right that I do not on the grounds of his opinion. Am I to be discriminated against because I have no religious belief? Is a secular belief to be treated in a second class manner because it does not have the ‘authority’ of some prophet?

    To me it is a bit like the golf club - people have the right to practice their golf but not in the garda station. As McDowell argued religious law or stricture should have all the commandist authority of a golf club. Problem is it can't abide by that and wants more. Lillian Ladelle lost her job for refusing to officiate at gay weddings; Gary McFarlane lost his for refusing to provide therapy to gay couples. The right decision. They had no right to bring their religious prejudices or beliefs into the public service. The Sikh issue is somewhat different given that the guy wearing it probably does not want to use it to interfere in the lives of others. Nevertheless, in the McFarlane case Lord Justice Laws made the following point:

    ‘The precepts of any one religion – any belief system – cannot, by force of their religious origins, sound any louder in the general law than the precepts of any other. If they did those out in the cold would be less than citizens.’

    People just like me who see no reason that a turban should have preferential treatment over the photo of my children.

    We can all quote from anywhere to make a case. In this instance the judge might be right, he might be wrong – I cite it because it happens to make eminent sense to me.

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  40. Robert I really enjoyed that interaction between yourself and Anthony, as humanity advances I believe outdated beliefs without evidence will become obsolete,we stopped or most of us have anyway, beliveing in fairies and witches years ago and in the coming years I think religion will fade away as we the human race look towards space for the preservation of our race,one thing I often wondered about was, what if we did make contact with other intelligent life in space and the question of a divine being comes up and we got that smash instant potatoe add answer(the wee ailens laughing)would the worlds established religions become involved in the biggest coverup of all time I bet they would,but for the moment they needent worry ,because how I know there must be intelligent life out there is they stay well clear of this place,keep the post going I,m learning stuff here,

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  41. I realised that your point about the Swedish cap was hypothetical. I realise that most of your other points are mainly hypothetical as well. There lies the crucial difference between your examples and the Sikh one:

    There are a multitude of different hypothetical examples we can come up with that nobody would ever want satisfied for themselves. The Sikh police members do want their right to wear the turban. If for example a group of people did want the right to wear something on their cap but not for religious reasons and genuinely felt that they were unable to do their job otherwise then if it was reasonable and did not interfere with their work then the law would surely provide.

    As for the veil or the burka I am unsure how reasonable it would be to keep your face covered when interacting with the public as a police officer or if the need is there amongst certain sections of the Muslim community.

    "Implicit in your view seems to be that there is something commandist or authoritative about religious requirements that should be deferred to by others who do not hold to the religion." That is not my view.

    I do not hold religious views above any other belief. My original point about belief in a deity was simply to point out the fervency of the belief held and my comparison with the football analogy in my second post was qualified with the word "essential".

    If it is a genuinely essential need based on any belief (religious, football orientated or otherwise) held by any group of people and that need requires satisfaction before they can access a certain job or service and providing that need is reasonable and doesn't interfere with anybody else's rights then why not provide for it?

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  42. Mackers,
    you did not give an indication that you had read the book, I simply read it wrong!

    I will certainly take the 49 step rule on board.
    Hope Marty will also benefit from the cautionary tale!!!!

    Always felt I should have stood my ground with the school, however they place a person in a catch 22 and they know it.

    Stll believe, that religion can be a very positive force though.

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  43. Simon, kind of agree with what you are saying about the turban. However, I believe that in certain instances the Law should be given predominance over religious customs.
    For example if a Sikh person is working on a building site or riding a motor bike should they be allowed to deviate from the safety Laws?
    The burka is something very different however, manufactured by the Holy men, the veil is nothing more than a symbol of oppression.
    While all five religions are essentially misogynist, some tend to be more overt than others.
    Therefore, in relation to the burka, hijab or niqab I tend to agree with Mackers, should we tolerate them diffently not!

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  44. Nuala hon with my track record the only steps that I can now take are great big ones!.

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  45. Anyone coming to my door wearing a burka I just look through the letter box and say "now you know how I feel !

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  46. Fionnuala- You are completely right. If the allowance for a religious or other belief is to be implemented it can and is only done if it is reasonable. The test for that reasonableness includes as you point out safety, practicality, etc.

    If a person feels excluded from a job because of something than can be reasonably allowed why not accommodate him/her?

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  47. Marty, that is very bold!

    Methinks, Mr McIntyre, should restrict your poetic license.

    Simon, you have really cheered me up it's not often anyone tells me I got something right!

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  48. Fionnuala- Your comments are always of interest. Even though I do not agree with some of them you have never been a "conversation stopper". Also, I needed a bit of moral support as Anthony is a formidable conversationalist.

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  49. If the KKK registered as a religious organisation ,would it be then ok for them to wear their pointy hats all the time? only asking!

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  50. Simon, I appreciate that, unfortunately I have stopped a few conversations in my time, but I am learning.

    Anthony can be quite formidable, however, you have proved time out of number that you are more than capable of holding your own.
    Actually, enjoyed the debate both of you had about religious customs and cultures. I thought both of you presented some very interesting arguments. Marty on the other hand just lowered the tone.

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  51. Thanks Fionnuala. It is difficult to know how my points come across on the computer screen.

    As for the KKK. It is an interesting point because if they wore their pointy hats all the time it would be easier to know who to throw a brick at. Perhaps you could make it mandatory?

    I suppose there is a danger of someone with racist views attacking a Sikh for being a policeman but I don't know if not wearing it would help them against such people. The Sikh and others are at the mercy of the intelligence of the public.

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  52. Anthony

    A world without religion sounds a little utopian?

    A world without the politics of religion might be more realistic providing the Church would stick to saving souls and the State to saving and advancing humanity?

    Simon
    You are holding your own just don’t let Anthony rope you into a game of Checkers I have heard he takes that game serious.

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  53. Empty Pulpits two words which has a happy ring to me ears. May get the book (as if wading thru J Powells Great hatred Big Tomb was not torturous enough)--> See how the residual Catholic teachings on me almost sado masochistic mode even can dictate one choice of books (snortle) Btw i found out when ordered powells book they use it here in Auz at unis for political studies.. say no more. Now there is a distinct difference between religion and gut level living out your conviction and faith in God in the nitty gritty real world. That being the world of working yer guts out for a pittance and all the mundane stuff of life. The shattering of the constructs of Catholicism in respect of revering a hierachy dictating how one should be is liberty NOT catastrophe... Set the ppl free.. Less priests, bishops nuns and THAT rotten to the core Vatican means less of society seeking solace in constructs and individuals who, in the instinct of catholicism are markedly flawed. Of course there are exceptions - priests nuns and the headhonchos in their robes who rose above the corruption and were bona fide. What a pity i never got educated til late in life. I could have written excruciating tomes analyzing the angst of the constructs of Catholicsm on Irish and got big bucks. Aside to Anthony - i do not read Hans Kung as genuis material - rather another paid pseudo thorn in side of the Vatican. The biggest thorn in the side of organised religion is the little people rising up and saying no more. Be it Catholicism version of God, Prodland versions of God or whatevers... leave it alone It is all instrincially f..ked and has very little to do with Jesus or even spirituality or even honesty for that matter. Now this book sounds relatively interesting because really all it is saying is what we do know but for many who sought comfort in religion -> manmade constructs - control/church and state, well maybe it will assist their wake up call. I believe in God but despise the constructs. Empty Pulpits? --> goodie Get real and live in the gritty dirty world of reality and live out your convictions there. Preachin time over hehe

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  54. Tain Bo- Thanks for the advice. I used to play a lot of games of draughts as a kid. My granda's mate taught me a move were you always had a two man advantage in every game. I can't for the life of me remember it now. I know the place on the board where it happened and I know you had to sacrifice one or two men. It drove me crazy trying to remember it so I have given up.

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  55. Anthony,

    "new evidence seems to go the way of the atheists - that's the historical trend."

    This is not correct - if anything continued scientiftic discovery tends to validate the presence of intelligent design. DNA or the genitic code is one example. The cosmic discoveries of the COBE Satellite,the Hubble Telescope. Frederick Burnham, a science historian, said in response to the Hubble discoveries, “The idea that God created the Universe is a more respectable hypothesis today than at any time in the last 100 years.”

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  56. Marty,

    "..as humanity advances I believe outdated beliefs without evidence will become obsolete,.."

    Is humanity really advancing? If you are talking about advancement being technological advancement how far is our advancement when that technology threatens the very existence of mankind and his environment?
    Evidence does exist - you choose to dismiss it. Man's behaviour has not changed through time nor will it with his travel to other planets. On the continuity of human behaviour the bible has this to say,"That which is done is what will be done,
    And there is nothing new under the sun.
    Is there anything of which it may be said,
    “ See, this is new”?
    It has already been in ancient times before us." Ecclesiastes 1 v9&10 Did Neil Armstrong cease being human when he walked on the moon?

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  57. Aye but did he Robert lol there,s people who say it was all a big con,the only thing I know about the bible is,when Moses went to mount Olive Popeye knocked his melt in !!yes Robert I am talking of technological advancement,which unfortunatley means slicker ways of wipeing each other out, but I also see that religion hasnt done to badly either in wipeing out fellow human beings,the Aztecs for example,the inquisitions,in the words of the song we need to find a new direction,and put religion back to where it belongs,a personal opinion.

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  58. Damian,

    I am a physicalist in terms of believing that there is no supernatural, only a natural, causation. As to the debate within the physicalist school, I never play it that close, seeing it as an offshoot of the debate I am primarily interested in.

    I did have a chance to briefly glance at the discussion on Slugger. Why not put together a piece a incorporating your ideas and we will put them on the blog. Discussion will ensue much quicker from that method.


    Simon,

    ‘If for example a group of people did want the right to wear something on their cap but not for religious reasons and genuinely felt that they were unable to
    do their job otherwise then if it was reasonable and did not interfere
    with their work then the law would surely provide.’

    This is where we disagree. The law should not provide. People in this situation ‘genuinely feel’ on the basis of an opinion. In matters like policing – a society wide structure - the attire should have an autonomy from the sectional which displays favour to no opinion; an attire that in some ways is the lowest common denominator. People have tried to give their opinion some extra force by claiming that it prevents them doing this or that and in the face of it they have no choice. That’s fair in the local golf club or church but not in wider society. I still see no reason that a religious opinion should have this particular weight although you are making that case that anybody who genuinely feels they should be permitted something reasonable if the case is genuine, should have that concession made. I think it makes matters much less complicated if we don’t go down that path. Everybody would come trying to trump somebody else with their own ‘genuine’ case.

    I have no doubt that there are Muslims who genuinely feel that they must wear the burka. I am not a ‘ban the burka’ advocate but I would not approve of it being worn in a policing capacity. Even where the veil was not blocking the features I would still disapprove.

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  59. AM- I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't see any valid reason why Sikh police officers shouldn't be allowed to wear their turbans and I don't think you see any reason why they should be allowed.

    The more varied the backgrounds of people in the police the better and if you are basically putting up hurdles to people the less chance we have of having a police force that reflects the multi-denominational and multi-cultural community.

    I don't know if the Irish courts have ruled in a Sikh turban case but the British courts have and allow it except for armed police.

    As for "Everybody would come trying to trump somebody else with their own ‘genuine’ case." There is only a small number of cases that could possibly arise as there is only a relatively small number of groups of people that individuals can claim to be part of. And a small number of relevant needs within these groups.

    I am not taking about individuals claiming they themselves have a particular need but individuals who are part of a group. The fact that they are part of an established group with a common history and culture is the test. Any individual who tries to bring a case based on something they just thought of isn't going to be considered because as you said there would be problems.

    You can discriminate against an individual as long as its not arbitrary or because of the group they belong to.

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  60. Robert

    ‘Is humanity really advancing? If you are talking about advancement
    being technological advancement how far is our advancement when that
    technology threatens the very existence of mankind and his environment?’

    I recall Derrida pointing out that the enlightenment brought us the gas chambers and what he called the Holocaust of Hiroshima.

    In the end it probably all comes down to your view of humanity.


    Nuala,

    I don’t think society needs religion. But there is a lot of things it doesn’t need but co-exists with. My concern is that religion should have no more rights over people than any other opinion. The idea of suppressing it is anathema.


    Saint Mary,

    Hedging your hogs?!!!!

    Tain Bo

    A world without religion does sound a little utopian. It will be around as long as there are people. The discussion is not about its eradication but its role.

    Simon,

    That checkers move would be a great one to know.

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  61. Anthony- I was selfish: I used it in a few games against my mates and didn't let on how I managed it. It was a fast but complicated move and they just sat there with a furious befuddled look.

    My granda and his mate were quadraplegics for a long time and spent a lot of the time playing draughts. They grew up playing it and honed their skills in the wards. My granda taught me how to play. He was an excellent player but had great admiration for his mate who was a class above.

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  62. Anthony,

    Oppenheimer's recall of the Hindu Bhagavad Gita, "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." points us in the direction of much of mans 'free thinking'.

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  63. Mackers, when I said religion has a role in society, I should have actually added for people like myself.

    Religion has been a big, big factor in my life.
    My da took me to Mass every morning before he took me to school, so maybe in some simple way I associate religion with positive aspects in my life.
    Like Simon and his grandfather, we also spent endless hours playing draughts, therefore I also have a positive association with that game.

    Agree totally with StMary? that religion has quite abusive and destructive connotations.
    Christianity, probably reaped more havoc on women than the other four lumped together, although some of them are shamefully catching up.

    I agree with you Mackers that, religion should no longer be given a dominant credence.
    I also agree with Simon, that a person's religious practices should be allowed to overtly co-exist with their everyday lives, providing they do not infringe on or offend anyone elses.

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  64. Robert,

    We will never agree on this. How many scientists believe in God? Not a big percentage I think. Although it depends on what statistics we draw on. Frederic Burnham is not the best example given that he was not converted to religion as a result of something like the discovery. He was a person of faith. You could maybe have cited Antony Flew as a stronger example than Burnham given his about turn. But ultimately, “The idea that God created the Universe is a more respectable hypothesis today than at any time in the last 100 years” is borne out by what? I think as Malachi points out in his book religion loses each big conflict with science. DNA has been a source of delight to atheist scientists. Biologists now feel that they can fill in more of the mosaic sketched by Darwin. Without even attempting to go into the research a casual glance at the TV programmes dealing with the origins of the universe never seem to mention religion or intelligent design. I have thought about ID and have been impressed by Hans Kung but ultimately it has no intellectual appeal for me. I simply cannot comprehend the existence of a supernatural being. The notion of an interventionist god is even more ludicrous to me. I can see why people believe that something had to kick the thing off but that it intervenes in human affairs – can’t comprehend how that is seriously entertained as a belief.
    Intelligent design in my view has come into being to compensate for the serious deficiencies of cretinous creationism.

    Are you a strong believer? Would you practice if that is not too intrusive a question?

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  65. Simon
    I agree that a police force is better if it reflects the society it polices although not in a majoritarian sense. And for that reason I would reverse the argument and ask that all come into it on the same terms as everyone else and not place their own hurdles on the basis that ‘society must be defended’ before sectionalism.
    I am also apprehensive about individuals being given more rights than other individuals by virtue of membership of some group. I can understand the case for more protection – where a group is victimised – but not more rights.
    The case you make has shifted onto Malachi’s ground – one of culture. I still don’t subscribe to it.
    As you say we must agree to differ. But if you come back on this fine. I think I’ll leave it at that.

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  66. apparently the popemobile has 3 inch bulletproof glass,thatsf##kin faith for you

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  67. just been to my first muslim birthday party,the musical chairs was a bit slow but f##k me the pass the parcel was quick

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  68. Simon,

    I guess with being quadriplegics they extracted what pleasures they could from life.
    Selfish? Don’t know about that. As long as you did not cheat the rest doesn’t matter.
    My father taught me how to play but turned me into a bad tempered player with his slagging and winding up. My daughter has inherited it. It came out in every sport I ever played.

    Nuala,

    I have to respect people’s right to a religious opinion. I came from a religious home but we all turned away from it, my ma included who gave us it. She wouldn’t let a priest near the house as she lay dying and asked that no one send a mass card as the church would get £2 from it. The last book she had read to her was Dawkins’ God Delusion. If I needed any reassurance on how to die without god it was to be found in her. But by that stage I was long since by any belief.

    But to me religion is always and only an opinion. I respect people for their religion no more than I respect them for their politics or what football team they support. Whether they worship the devil, trees or god, it is all the same to me.

    They can build their own churches but should be kept well away from schools

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  69. Mackers, my ma was actually struggling with religion and belief herself in the end. She actually said to me that, she wished she would die quickly while she still believed in something'

    I know a lot of people will be less than impressed by my saying this, but when both my parents died I got such strength from my belief in God.
    I never perceived God as some airy fairy being occupying a place beyond the clouds somewhere.
    Through some really bad stuff in my life, I have actually felt that something not of this world has helped steer me through.

    I appreciate the fact that people will say 'thats total crap'
    But the reality of my life is, I could not cope without it.

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  70. Nuala,

    I don't doubt for a minute that people draw strength from a belief in god. I know that George Monbiot once said that the two most committed social justice activists he ever met were inspired by a belief in god.

    When my brother in law died I was at his side and he fervently believed he was going to his god but I was not going to tell him it was all a nonsense or to consider the view of Dawkins. Whatever got him over the finishing line was his own affair.

    Even those of us who are atheists are not the rational creatures we often assume ourselves to be. We all slip into denialism and practice it. Look at how we view our kids - certainly not the same as the neighbours do! Take the excuses we make for our friends when we would be on an opponent's back if they did the same thing for which we give our friends latitude if not exactly licence.

    People who have religious beliefs are entitled to hold them so long as they do not try to prescribe for others who do not hold to the same beliefs. Nor do I think they should be allowed to teach religion in schools as science. Mervyn Storey trying to insist on the right to bamboozle kids that evolution did not happen or that the world is about 6000 years old should be rejected outright. Dawkins always says that to claim the world is 6000 years old is akin to saying that the US is about 8 foot wide.

    For years I held to atheism but the depth of it really struck me when I had the sensation of having lost forever an old friend – god; no one left to turn to when in the depths of despair. So I know how deeply ingrained it can be.

    At that point I knew there would never be a reconciliation.

    I know people get relief from many things. I just feel that the thing might not be real.

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  71. I often envy believers. My mother, for example, draws almost superhuman energy from Mass and the Rosary. The sense of purpose, the moral certainty, and the belief in the ultimate triumph of right over wrong do make life easier, not to mention the promise of heaven. So although I'm a committed secularist and could never believe in the vengeful, prurient god of the Catholic Church, I am a reluctant atheist rather than a satisfied one.

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  72. Alfie,

    my lack of faith sustains me

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  73. Alfie, a lot of what Mackers has said is spot on, at the end of the day it should be more about, each to their own and whatever gets a person through.

    When I was young we had to say the rosary every day at home and I totally resented that.
    I was never able to sustain a belief in Our Lady, although, over the years I have wished I could.
    Always thought, that this divine and ultimately pure woman was actually created to show women what they should be and then punish them because they could not step up to the mark.

    Religion has devastated lives and I have seen that first hand.
    Us Catholics seem to be perpetually steeped in guilt, even though, many have absolutely no idea why the feel that way.

    Women have suffered horrendously, thanks to the fact that God supposedly created man in his image and likeness.

    Yet, in my own head I can seperate my personal belief in Jesus from all of this.

    On a final note, Dawkins is on More 4 on Wednesday evening speaking about the God dilusion, normally I would not watch him, but this time I will.

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  74. Anthony, I believe atheism demands a degree of inner strength and self-reliance that is not asked of theists. But I don't see how atheism itself can sustain or fortify someone in the way that faith in a god can. How can it help you cope with the death of a family member? I feel that atheism is a lonely road that I must travel down to oblivion.

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  75. Anthony,

    "my lack of faith sustains me"

    Dr John Lennox has pointed out that this is essentially a form of faith albeit not in God.
    I know you are informed greatly by Dawkins. Have you ever viewed the very interesting 2007 'God Delusion' debate between Richard and Dr Lennox held at the University of Alabama?
    Before viewing this I often thought of Dawkins as arrogant and an overly self assured Atheist. The debate greatly altered my views on Dawkins - his discomfort is telling. This can be viewed @ www.fixed-point.org

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  76. Mackers, Albert has just informed me that three hundred years ago I would have been burnt at the stake.

    In his logic, which is fuelled essentially by drink, he is arguing, that I would have been sentenced for being too outspoken and owning cats.

    He reckons, they would get a conviction, as he said both he and Kevin would have to testify for the prosecution!!!!

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  77. Nuala,

    I suppose once we accept that man took a long time coming on the scene given the age of the universe and the earth, and evolved out of slime, we can forget the notion that he was created in god's image or was given dominion over the animals. He was/is an animal.

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  78. Alfie,

    I don't believe it does. It is effortless. I have experienced the deaths of immediate family members and needed no religion to get me by. I knew they had ceased to be and had gone back to being what they had been before they were conceived. There was nothing wrong with that. They were not going to bu burned in the fires of hell or forced to live forever worshipping some being that craved endless praise.


    Anthony, I believe atheism demands a degree of inner strength and self-reliance that is not asked of theists. But I don't see how atheism itself can sustain or fortify someone in the way that faith in a god can. How can it help you cope with the death of a family member? I feel that atheism is a lonely road that I must travel down to oblivion.

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  79. Robert,

    I think the religious types try to put reason on a par with faith. I don't buy into it but have litle difficulty in hearing it phrased that way. My position is simple - a lack of faith in something is not faith in something else unless we go down the endless trail of faith in a lack of faith .....

    I think Dawkins is arrogant. I think he doesn't cope well when the arrogance is challenged. However, I have never yet seen a religious person out-logic him. Nor am I impressed by him as a writer. I don't think he conveys his ideas all that well.

    I have not seen the debate, not that I recall. I will make a point of viewing it at some stage.

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  80. Anthony,

    " I have never yet seen a religious person out-logic him"

    Please do view this debate. You may question my objectivity but you will see Lennox out-logic him. As a matter of interest Lennox has also debated Hitchens on “The New Europe should prefer the New Atheism”. I think you will find this interesting as it touches on the Danish cartoon 'controversy'. They have further squared off on 'God Is Not Great'.

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  81. Anthony,

    "..religion is taken to task for its insistence that secularism cannot be the source of a moral code."

    We crossed swords on this very issue in a past post. You drew inference that in attempting to make a distinction between moral and legal culpability that I was suggesting you did'nt possess a moral code because you are an atheist, which I was'nt. We consider adultery as immoral but it is'nt illegal for example.
    Scripture instructs us that we are moral beings made in God's image. Therefore a moral code is inherent in you regardless of your atheism.

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  82. Anthony- You are right about quadriplegics extracting all the pleasures they can out of life. I have witnessed many paraplegics doing all they can with their remaining muscles (quite a few build up their arm muscles religiously). In my granda's quadriplegic case he used the power of bone movement to paint and write poetry with the aid of a special brush/pen. He was lucky as he could also manage to turn a page of a book with the side of his hand.

    I think looking at less fortunate people conquer adversity in the face of little hope can be as powerful as religion in the role it plays teaching us how to live. Whether those people are victims of natural disasters like the floods in Pakistan, victims of war or sexual violence, prisoners living under inhuman conditions, disabled people, or whatever if they can survive the setbacks in life they can be great instructors in how to live and combat disadvantage.

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  83. Robert,

    I watched the first session and to me that went to Dawkins on points. Not that he said anything to gain the points. When Lennox said that god was not a delusion but was real and that Jesus Christ was his son and it said so in the bible ...

    To an ear like mine that sounds just like 'Beano the Spinning Jelly Bean Monster is real and it is proved in the Dandy.'

    Now Lennox is an intelligent man - professor of maths. For someone like me to whom minor maths is daunting, you can understand my admiration for his intellect. So you can imagine how I jumped on hearing all this about bibles and sons of god. I was expecting an argument based on science rather than a book of fables.

    Now, I appreciate the link, fully intend to watch it all, will give Lennox his dues where he merits them and accept so early into the discussion that first impressions may not be lasting.

    But for now bibles and Jesus the son of god talk is a serious repellant to me.

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  84. Nuala,

    I think you would have been burned at the stake - even ten years ago! I could imagine the mob of bollix believers outside your door screaming 'witch.'

    Robert,

    are you winding me up telling me what scripture instructs us?!!!!

    Do you recall where that exchange was? I remember it but just can't trace it. If I remember correctly you implied that my view on whatever it was (Billy Wright?) that I must be making a legal judgement rather an ethical one given that I am an atheist. What reason apart form the absence of a secular moral code would that question be put? Why would my judgement be legally rather than ethically informed? Having said that I am working from memory and may have it wrong on what you actually said.

    It depends on where you are in the world - some places do not see adultery as immoral; others see it as not only immoral but illegal. Did Iris strike me as immoral? I never considered it as such in terms of her fling but more in terms of how she had wanted gay people persecuted. That, rather than the fling per se, made it immoral to me.

    It baffles me that we could be made in god's image. What is the image that we resemble?

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