In the Middle East crush thy neighbour is a theme that every western generation becomes witness to. The reluctance of the powerful nations plays out with inhuman undertones as they shuffle the already stacked deck where a powerful ally can blitz an impoverished weak people. Meanwhile, the more wealthy Arab nations straddle the fence unwilling to rock their own boat.
The humanitarian crisis is swept aside as the West repeatedly fails to broker a ceasefire, choosing instead to placate and justify the overwhelming power imbalance, not so silently agreeing with Israel and its one sided war. The death toll mounts as the destruction continues all in the name of self-defence. When the Israelis’ eventually withdraw the plight of the beleaguered Palestinians’ will fade away. Will the powerful and rich nations then supply the finance for these people to rebuild? Probably yes, but just enough for the West to pat itself on the back and in a time honoured tradition of too little too late.
This latest military incursion into the Gaza under an eye for an eye quickly turned into many innocent eyes being closed with indiscriminate overwhelming military power. It would be pointless to argue this is the result of 3 Israeli teens being murdered. That may have provided an excuse, but it is what lies beneath the surface that is the cause of the continued war.
The tunnels that Israeli intelligence has probably known about for a long time appear to be a target. I am doubtful if the tunnels are purely for sneaking into Israel. Much like tunnels found along the American border with Mexico I would assume their primary use is for black-market smuggling by Hamas and less for attacking inside Israel. In the past 3 weeks I have only heard of 2 attacks on the IDF allegedly from tunnels. It would seem more reasonable that the tunnels were primarily for smuggling as, militarily, they sound expensive to carve out and too labour intensive for a one time use. I might be wide of the mark but it does sound like the IDF are cutting off supply lines into Gaza.
Hamas are not doing the civilians any favours. They are fighting with outdated tactics and much the same as PIRA are undoubtedly riddled with agents of influence. The war will be televised and for the most part biased as Israel uses the self-defence approach and laughs, emboldened by the feeble international response. This response is nothing new as Hamas carry the same label as the PLO and in the post 9/11 world the word terrorist is all Israel needs to use to justify their actions.
One thing is clear: the civilian death and wounded toll will rise and the destruction will continue. Somehow the people will continue to suffer and struggle to get by with even less than before the invasion. It is difficult to care about the politics of the region as Israel and Hamas argue over rights. In the meantime the civilians have no rights. It would be one thing if the IDF and Hamas were squaring off on a battlefield but instead the Gaza strip is the battlefield and has been before this invasion. I was talking with a close friend who normally has little to say on politics so I was surprised when she said out of disgust at the civilian death toll.
Why is anyone surprised or shocked when the original western European Jews were transplanted they brought with them more than their belongings, they also brought that western superior attitude along with the tradition of conquering and invading other peoples land. And if all they are doing is killing Arabs the west will always turn a blind eye.It is being played out in Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Palestine: wars are raging, and the civilians are the casualties. The politics overshadow the human crisis. I am sure a powerful nation like Israel with its powerful allies would have no problem defending Israel without inflicting unnecessary casualties on the innocent victims in the Gaza strip.
Tain Bo, re the tunnels, you're not wide of the mark at all. They've sprung up only since the blockade began and are used mostly for bringing in essential (but banned by Israel) items needed for daily life in Gaza, for example building materials, cement etc. Incidentally, Egypt recently destroyed all the tunnels along its border with Gaza without resorting to so called "war."
ReplyDeleteI believe the real reason for this latest round of genocidal madness has more to do with the swearing in of the Palestinian Unity Government in June this year than tunnels. It looked like the best hope in years for the basis of a two state solution - but of course Netanyahu, Lieberman etc can't allow that.
Re your friend's comment - could you please clarify who she means exactly when she refers to original western european jews, and when they were transported? I don't exactly understand and prefer not to guess. Thank you.
Best wishes.
As reported in Drogheda Lifetoday.
ReplyDelete"Drogheda Sinn Féin members and supporters are planning to hold a public demonstration in West Street on Friday to show their support for and solidarity with the people of Gaza.
They have asked for as many people as possible to join them at 1.00 pm at the Tholsel on Friday 1st August.
“We are asking as many as possible to attend” said a spokesperson, “bring any flags, posters etc with you. Everyone is welcome; please show your support for the people of Gaza.”
Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteOne of the best pieces I have read about Gaza. I think the tunnels have been around for decades and I have seen a couple of photos and they are extremely deep to avoid whatever electronic means of detection. I hazard a guess that they could possibly be as elaborate as any used during the Vietnam War.
Sarah Heaton,
ReplyDeleteI was aware the of the tunnels Egypt closed but I assume the Palestinians’ would be quick to open up new ones as with all nations smuggling and smugglers are a lucrative part of the under economy. I was slack with my opinion on the Israeli/Gaza tunnels as I can’t prove they are used for smuggling but assume they were before the assault began but that becomes moot as the IDF can claim they are solely for Hamas fighters to sneak in and attack.
I agree with you it is about destroying the Palestinian Unity Government the tunnels and rockets along with the Hamas fighters appear to be secondary targets as the invasion continues the innocent civilian toll would be a good indicator that the IDF intends to break the will of the people and Hamas are powerless to prevent that and so far the west is not interested. They are too busy playing out a sanctions war with Russia.
The displaced Jews after world war 2 in the death camps she didn’t say “transported but transplanted it could be argued that the victors didn’t know what to do with the survivors and carting them off to British controlled Palestine would make them someone else’s problem. She is well versed in European history and unlike me extremely level headed.
Tiarna,
ReplyDeleteI don’t think there is a best or a worst people are going to rightly or wrongly side with what they believe.
On this one I side with the innocent civilians trapped in what is a medieval siege Hamas can put on a show but militarily they are powerless. Israel has all the modern machines of war at its disposal including nuclear weapons and the finance to go to war.
Gaza is being bombed into the dark ages the slaughter is one sided if it was a dig between Hamas and the IDF that would be one thing but I don’t see how the Israeli government can justify bombing a defenceless people.
Life in Israel didn’t grind to halt yet a few miles away the human tragedy grows worse. Hamas need to shoulder some of the guilt with the “iron dome” in place their rocket attacks are just a nuisance and as ineffective as before the invasion.
The IDF have the technology and sophistication to target Hamas fighters but that is not the case as apparently on every street corner is a supposed Hamas tunnel or arms dump. Neither side in my opinion is in the right on this one as it is primarily a war against civilians.
I agree that any nation has a right to defend itself but does that right extend to crushing a nation that is incapable of defending itself.
The world needs to bypass the politics and look at the indiscriminate needless attacks on civilians with no were to hide.
Tain,
ReplyDeletegreat play on words. Keep writing about this. It is the great issue of our day.
Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you in that there is a difference in military might between Hamas and IDF. There is no dispute that Israel claims an unjust monopoly on the legitimate
use of physical force over the Palestinians and always have.
When the consequences are so devastating to Palestinians while the Israeli's are virtually unscathed then morally and ethically Hamas cannot be left off the hook; Hamas are not resisting they are bringing it on. I would differ with you in so far as I see it as a case that Hamas are using inappropriate tactics rather than outdated ones (as you say); but which ever of our views might be right it is evident that it is not working for them and most of all not the Palestinian people.
I do not see Hamas and Palestinian civilians as one and the same as the Israelis and their weaponry do... and apparently anyone who spent time in the H-Blocks is supposed too.
Tiarna,
ReplyDeleteThe H block issue is minor and has no bearing on this thread. Personally your opinion on the issue is welcomed by me what others have to say is their thoughts. Your opinion is not isolated and is common your time in the Blocks does not automatically suggest that you should side with one or the other. In fact I say fair play to you for expressing your opinion. The more pro or anti or even indifferent comments the better as it keeps the spotlight on the issue.
Alfie put together a fair piece and with any article it has the chance of being sidelined with disagreement to the point it goes off thread but you have been around long enough to know that.
I am not defending Hamas or Israel the unfortunate fact is that civilians are targets. Let’s face it Hamas are not capable of bringing it on as you say. They are trying to save face and are being as ridiculous as Israel with unrealistic demands for all I know or care they could be hiding in tunnels it is the civilians that I am defending.
It is not about Hamas and the people being one that still does not excuse the human destruction or I should say the continued unnecessary slaughter. Israel has proved again they carry the biggest stick if their war is with Hamas then go after Hamas let the people live in peace without fear. If this was the other way round the west would invade and destroy Palestine, but they won’t raise an eyebrow against the naked Israeli aggression.
By outdated tactics I should have been clearer on that attacking Israel is not going to free Palestine. The only thing that will is international pressure applied to both Israel and Hamas but as I said the politics are of little consequence the human factor is more important. There is no justification for it to continue.
Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteYou are saying pretty much as I have said that Hamas are "being as ridiculous as Israel" in so far as like meet like regardless of the inequality of fire power.
Ditto -- "I am not defending Hamas or Israel the unfortunate fact is that civilians are targets."
"Let’s face it Hamas are not capable of bringing it on as you say" They can and are bringing it on that is the easy part for them; they can't size up with the Israeli's as equal's militarily is what I think you mean.
"It is not about Hamas and the people being one that still does not excuse the human destruction or I should say the continued unnecessary slaughter." Unfortunately for the Palestinian civilians who bear the brunt of Israeli savagery Israeli does not distinguish between the two. So Hamas are not innocent bit part to the equation and what they do has direct consequences to the Palestinians.
Ditto -"Israel has proved again they carry the biggest stick if their war is with Hamas then go after Hamas let the people live in peace without fear. If this was the other way round the west would invade and destroy Palestine, but they won’t raise an eyebrow against the naked Israeli aggression."
I differentiated with you between 'outdated' and 'inappropriate' -I differ because I do not think that Israel should not be attacked under any circumstance but right now and with the civilians in mind it is inappropriate. That is a principled view where I believe that Palestinians have a right to resort to violence whereas I recognise how you define 'outdated' is not wrong either.
[Hamas] "attacking Israel is not going to free Palestine" ( or more specifically the Gaza Chamber). That has been my point about bringing it on and reason why I am so critical of Hamas.
In the British press, reports of the massacres in Gaza are already taking up fewer and fewer column inches. What a God forsaken race we are.
ReplyDeleteThank you Tain Bo for your clarification. It was as i thought however I don't like to assume. On that subject, you and particularly your friend might be interested in reading 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis, edited by Lenni Brenner (Barricade Books, 2002.) The documents provide extraordinary insight into the attitude of the Yishuv towards European Jewry,(poverty stricken shtetl dwellers, not the middle class, urbane, assimilationists) prior to, during and after WW2. It's well documented here and elsewhere that Ben Gurion referred to the seething masses of the remnants of jewish humanity in Europe as "human dust" who were unwanted in the new Israel. Considering the zionist attitude to their "own" people before the State of Israel was even a reality, and what a bloody awful state it is, it's hard to see why anyone is now surprised by the barbarity, racism and cruelty they now show to their neighbours. The west are just as bad for playing along with it. In my opinion.
Best wishes.
Tiarna,
ReplyDeleteIt is treacherous waters to navigate the politics and propaganda cannot be avoided and in this round Hamas missed out and I think they under estimated how far Israel would go. Their faith may have been misplaced in international pressure thinking the world would object to another invasion. When the IDF massed on the border Hamas should have dropped off the radar as token resistance only fueled Israel’s determination and provided more reason for their campaign. To the world they are just defending their nation and by the world I mean their powerful allies.
The problem is the IDF are targeting civilians destroying the infrastructure unnecessarily punishing the people so they might turn on Hamas and blame them for their suffering. I have watched news feeds of Palestinians’ cursing the Arab nations for abandoning them so in part this tactic is working.
The IDF are playing it safe engaging in a dirty war with air strikes, heavy artillery, navel bombardments raining down on civilians but its true purpose is to keep IDF losses at a acceptable minimal. The Palestinians’ have a right to defend but defend with what? Hamas are brining peashooters to a high tech war.
The reality even with the internet and news still can’t convey the suffering. It might be a poor comparison but our own Bloody Friday in 72 would probably be a good day in the Gaza over the past few weeks.
People are right to show anger towards Israel silence in this case is literally a death sentences for innocent civilians.
Sarah Heaton,
ReplyDeleteYou have to wonder if that is intentional or just as bad low viewer ratings with the no interest it is not my problem attitude. Then again the media don’t exactly show the whole picture as the reality of dead mutilated bodies would be too disturbing so they gloss over it. Unfortunately for those caught up in it they don’t have the luxury of switching it off they have to deal with it with every sense and emotion.
Thanks for the book recommendation I will pick up a copy I am sure it is probably on the web but I prefer to have the book less strain on my eyes and not hunched over gawking at a computer screen that way I take more in.
I will ask my friend if she knows about it though I wouldn’t be surprised if she has read it as I said she is well versed.
By the way welcome to the Quill I hope you stick around as your contributions are interesting.
Tain Bo
ReplyDelete[Hamas] "under estimated how far Israel would go." Like they did the last time too? Or time before that?? For you to be right about Hamas they would have to be on another planet from the rest of us.
"The problem is the IDF are targeting civilians destroying the infrastructure unnecessarily punishing the people" with Hamas practically phoning in the air strike co-ordinates to make it easy for the Israeli's. The actions of both IDF and Hamas are mutually inclusive.
"The Palestinians’ have a right to defend but defend with what? Hamas are brining peashooters to a high tech war." Again that has been a point of mine -it is all well and good to have the right to take up arms against oppression or injustice. In this case there are moral and ethical responsibilities on Hamas for doing so and continuing to do so.
Tain Bo, I think it's probably the "not my problem and what can I do about it already" attitude kicking in. Who can know.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your kind comment. You can probably get the book easily enough but if there's a problem I have 3 hardback copies (don't even ask) and will happily post one over to you or anyone else for that matter who would like to read it but is unable to purchase it, for whatever reason.
I received a message from a friend in Dublin today and she asked me to share it as widely as possible. I know this isn't the right thread, so i'm hoping someone on here could post it in a more appropriate place as i don't know where to put it. Apologies if this is already news in Ireland, but there's nothing about it over here so far....
"Crowd of peaceful demonstrators pepper sprayed, disgraceful scenes, 1 man arrested for no reason @ anti WW1/english royal visit at Glasnevin today. Pls forward in solidarity."
Tain bo,
ReplyDeleteI can disagree with you more had hamas not fired a single rocket the slaughter would continue, lets dispense with the elephant in the room, Israel agenda is the destruction of the Palestinians pure and simple, has been since lord Balfour. So all this shite about hamas not doing the civilians any favours is nonsense, everybody seems so afraid of being termed an anti-semite that they don't face up to the truth, the jews are the one of the most racist races on earth with massive delusions of grandeur they claim to be god's chosen people for fucks sake, there is footage of them on the net cheering and singing songs about the death of children. Of course you point this out and your an anti-semite or in the case of Norman Finklestein etc a self hating jew.
Of course there are anti-zionist jews who do the right thing and speak out, but the behaviour of the jews in occupied Palestine is a fucking disgrace sitting on hillsides cheering the death of children, pieces of shite. Lets not forget the places hamas rockets land is Palestine not 'Israel" land stolen from the Palestinians. So lets stop all this shite about two sides to blame. Zionist agenda always has been the destruction of Palestine to set up a Jewish state.
Tiarna,
ReplyDeleteGaza may as well be another planet and yes like the last time and probably after this the next time.
I can agree with you to a point firing off dodgy rockets from inside Gaza city but by the time the IDF zones in on the firing area Hamas are long gone and the civilians become the target.
I would also think that some Hamas agents are making the calls on certain arms dumps which in turn get shelled and inflict death and injury on civilians.
Even if we attach moral and ethical responsibility which doesn’t exist in war it still doesn’t provide the IDF with a license to bomb the Gaza into the dark ages the same applies to Hamas as by now they know that the IDF don’t care whom the shells land on. The rocket attacks are futile and counterproductive and serve only one purpose and that is propaganda for Israel and the west wont ague against that.
Today Netanyahu vows to finish the job of destroying the tunnels in the same story Israel say 60 rockets were fired and Hamas say 1 was fired at Tel Aviv but was intercepted.
A strange line of mixed messages with approval and a slight slap on Israel’s wrist but more interesting Israel is on the tap.
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who failed in a visit to the region last week to secure a ceasefire, voiced support for Israel's operations against the tunnels.
"No country can sit there and live with tunnels being dug under its border, out of which jump people who are carrying handcuffs and tranquilizer drugs in order to kidnap their citizens and hold them for ransom," Kerry said in an interview broadcast on Thursday by India's NDTV.
The Pentagon called on Israel on Thursday to do more to protect civilian life during its military operations in Gaza.
"The civilian casualties in Gaza have been too high. And it's become clear that the Israelis need to do more to live up to their very high standards - their very high and very public standards - for protecting civilian life,"
Pentagon spokesman Colonel Steve Warren said at a news briefing.”
And then this... which seems to contradict the notion of brokering a ceasefire by tap a local arms dump are they suggesting it is in Israel.
“Washington has also allowed Israel to tap a local U.S. arms stockpile in the past few weeks to replenish its grenades and mortar rounds, a U.S. defence official said on Thursday.”
Are the yanks saying please be more careful with our munitions.
The only thing in the article that makes any sense is:
“The United Nations' senior human rights official, Navi Pillay, said on Thursday that Israel has attacked homes, schools, hospitals, and U.N. premises in apparent violation of the Geneva Conventions.”
Pillay said Israel's actions seemed to be in "deliberate defiance of obligations that international law imposes".
But the UN is just a toothless lion and the war will continue after the IDF finish the job and withdraw I wonder will the much needed humanitarian relief reach the locals as swiftly as the shells do.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI tweeted that message there. That is perhaps the best way to get it out or on Facebook
Tain Bo
ReplyDelete"I can agree with you to a point..." Not sure where you are disagreeing?
I am mindful you made some remark about going off thread so maybe there in lies your lack of agreement? A number of posters went off thread elsewhere on the same topic because they objected to my criticisms of Hamas, it seems if I do not support Hamas I in some way condone Palestinians being killed. That is quite a leap. As you know most people play the ball not the man and so comments about my marriage status or sexual activity were fair game. Those sort of things are going off thread but I have no control over what others write.
Your view too seemed to allude to my tolerance or condoning of Palestinians civilians being killed such that I repeated back (above) much of your own remarks that were not actually substantively different from anything I have ever said on the matter.
"Even if we attach moral and ethical responsibility which doesn’t exist in war..." I disagree with you here; the Geneva Convention has been with us for some time now. One contentious issue, as you refer, in this conflict is are Palestinians being used as human shields? There is not always clear evidence one way or the other and so is a propaganda battle field. Just like you point out the conflicting claims made about how many rockets Hamas are firing. Though both could be telling the truth if there was another faction/s at work.
David Higgins,
ReplyDeletefair play to you I am not averse to disposing of the niceties and as for religion I hold no fear of being labeled anti-Semitic as Thus Spake Zarathustra God Is Dead religious diatribe or logic has no meaning to me.
What favour are Hamas doing and why is the other elephant missing as the over 1.5 million Arabs in Israel appear extremely silent.
I deliberately avoided religion as growing up in Belfast I grew weary of it so all religions mean to me is an excuse to attack as one god is better than the other.
Noticeably absent from the agenda is the civilian plight in Syria, Iraq, Libya I am not arguing rights or supposed rights I am siding with a people who have nothing and day by day that nothing turns into more nothing.
You seem more concerned about being labeled anti-Jew and what exactly can I do to stop people cheering on as shells rain down?
I remember Warrenpoint and rattling the nerves of the Para’s on boot patrol with taunts about their dead mates although I was a wee bit younger then it is still the same thing and not to avoid the other elephant but there are understandable cheers from some of the beleaguered youth when Hamas launch rockets. Is that even relevant under the gravity of innocent civilians dying in the lets pick a side from the comfort of a nice quiet room far away with all the mod cons.
Certainly I can admire your anger and honesty but your argument is not with me and mine is not for Israel or Hamas. I could use terms that you and others choose but somehow what initial anger I held gave way to looking at the people not as Arabs but simply as victims for slaughter.
I am siding with the people not their destruction and as I said prior I don’t care if comments are pro, anti, or indifferent as long as it stays in focus as that is the reality people will side with what they believe as we are busy deciding they are busy being bombed into dust.
David Higgins, i very strongly object to your statement "...the jews are the one of the most racist races on earth ..." and i sincerely hope that your comments are based on ignorance rather than malice.
ReplyDeleteJudaism is not a race. It is a religion. The idea of jews being a race first gained popularity through the efforts of the early zionists, then Hitler, and zionists in israel and around the world have continued it since.
If Judaism was a race, you wouldn't be able to convert to it, any more than one can convert to being asian or black. You might as well say "the Catholics/Muslims/Jainists are the most racist race on earth." There's really no difference.
The fact that Israel is a pariah state with increasingly genocidal tendencies does not equate to jews being racist, or a race. I don't wish to be rude to you but conflating judaism with zionism is lazy, insulting, and dangerous.
For further information I suggest reading Ilan Pappe, Norman Finklestein, Mark Elf etc, you could also look up Jews against Zionism (there are two JAZ organisations, one religious orthodox and one secular.)
Finally, a quote from Fatima Tassadiq. "...such crass anti-Semitism is rooted in the conflation of Judaism with Zionism. Zionism is a political ideology, which, although a product of a particular Jewish tradition, should not be equated with Judaism. This fact has been stressed repeatedly by anti-occupation Jewish activists across the world who are struggling to reclaim their religious identity and faith from the deafening Zionist propaganda."
A.M, thank you for tweeting that message.
Best wishes to all.
ttps://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1467904300123308&set=vb.100007112560963&type=2&theater
ReplyDeleteTiarna,
ReplyDeletemy apology if I inferred you condone the killing that was not my intention either directly or indirectly.
Your personal life is none of my business I try to avoid the personal even though as all are aware I am prone to losing the bap occasionally and apart from messing with Henry Joy’s napper I try to stick with the arguments. Though when things get heated it is big people rules and as you know that is the way the Quill works.
When the article went up I was aware that it might draw some criticism that was partially based in the flak you took for a similar opinion and also I was not going to wave a flag for Hamas but taking a bit of flak seems trivial.
I don’t think I have mentioned Palestinians or even referred to them being used as human shields I have said they are being targeted there is a world of difference. I also said I wouldn’t care if Hamas and the IDF were having a fair dig minus the civilian casualties.
I believe for the better part we are in agreement with a few minor discrepancies which is to be expected as the issue is highly charged.
I am not using this as propaganda but you mentioned the Geneva Convention I already posted this:
“The United Nations' senior human rights official, Navi Pillay, said on Thursday that Israel has attacked homes, schools, hospitals, and U.N. premises in apparent violation of the Geneva Conventions.”
“Pillay said Israel's actions seemed to be in "deliberate defiance of obligations that international law imposes".
So we have a disagreement on that part but that is par for the course.
Tiarna, I take it I am one of the people you are referring to about going "off thread". Fair enough, but as I recall, you brought Fionnuala Perry's husband/partner into it. Then I alluded to the fact that maybe you needed a good fuck to clear your head. I never mentioned your marital status. You could be a member of the GLBT community for all I care, and if you are, it wouldn't bother me in the least. You see, I posted on here earlier in the week, that it was strange that Israel's blood got boiling once Hamas and Fatah had reached an agreement of sorts. After an eight year siege and day and daily murdering of Palestinian people, what did you expect Hamas to do? I read Pauline Mellon's article on here during the week and she was trying to remember a quote from someone, it is this:"If you are not careful the newspapers will have you hating the people that are being oppressed, and loving the people that are doing the oppressing"
ReplyDeleteMalcolm X
David Higgins,
ReplyDeleteit is probably the fact that the upper echelons of SF/PIRA and the revelations about how dishonest they had been and still are that leaves me suspicious of so called revolutionary groups. I would believe Mossad have well placed agents in Hamas that provided the hard information about tunnels long before the invasion.
I imagine somewhere in Gaza is the equivalent of Bangers Morrison so with reason I am skeptical of Hamas if that is a fair reason or not it is just a model to base my opinion on.
If I was religious I might view things differently does not being religious make me anti-religions?
Sarah Heaton,
ReplyDeleteyou are welcome, thanks for the generous offer if I run into a problem acquiring a copy I may just take you up on that.
I think that is part of the problem “the, what can I do”
I was sitting on the sidelines just reading the articles and comments unable to put a comment together rummaging through the news feeds on the web. I suppose I was caught up in disbelief after my head cleared I put what I thought was a balanced piece together in opposition to the shelling of civilians regardless of the reasons as it quickly passed by as beyond excessive force.
I think it was reading the article about Anthony and His wife Carrie standing on the bridge a simple action that helped prompt me to add my voice against the slaughter of the helpless people.
You are definitely not off thread any of the Gaza articles would be the place to post any information; I passed it on to some friends. I am not sure how familiar you are with the Quill sometimes things get heated and go off thread although they usually circle back on thread.
Hopefully the promised humanitarian ceasefire holds though I am a little skeptical of that?
Tiarna,
ReplyDeletejust an afterthought we have been knocking about her a few years now and correct me if I am wrong but I don’t recall exchanging any bad words with you. My mind is like I sieve I can’t honestly remember.
Tain BO
ReplyDeleteNo, we have never crossed swords. I thought and still do think that your blog was a good piece.
My remark was cognizant of your first response which was one as if to clarify clear differences between us with regard to the slaughter of Palestinian civilians (it came across as an argument that you object to it implying that I must not). You refer directly to the other thread and I may be wrong in this but it seemed you had responded to how others misinterpreted my views on Hamas responsibility to mean all Palestinians were at fault rather than to what I had actually said. You then re-emphasized "I can agree with you to a point..." I still do not see what fundamental point you can be referring too? --Other than what was said by others about me on the other thread.
Re: the human shield point; I was merely providing one relevant area where 'ethical responsibility does exist in war'.
Belfastgit
Fionnualla Perry is very passive-aggressive individual. She engages in argument then flakes out because she doesn't get her way. In posts to me she refers to advice from her Husband/partner and so i inoffensively advised her go seek his advice again --on this occasion she sought the advice of her son --she makes things a family affair not I. She made the remark about my married life, or apparently lack off, with which you followed that that extended to my lack of sexual life also. You and Larry Hughes argument was that it was outrageous that anyone ever in the Blocks should find fault with Hamas (you extended my criticisms of Hamas to be representative of all Palestinians). Larry Hughes went on to conclude that I must be a Loyalist. And maybe I am an unmarried gay-jewish-loyalist. Personally I find that funny. And just to clarify about your reference about being gay I think you to be genuine on the GLBT remark and so I do not mention it as criticism of the remark.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteodd that you should see Morrison in Hamas somewhere whereas I see him every time Marg Regev lies to cover up.
I just watched the first 4 parts of a YouTube video it's called Counter Intelligence and it's in 5 parts.
ReplyDeleteTo most people on here there is nothing revolutionary about what it has to say..But I think it's interesting as it interviews several ex CIA and others who say interesting things.
It's quite a long series some episodes are nearly 2 hours long.
In part 4 some chap makes the claim the Palestinians are the true desecendants He wrote a book calling "overcoming Zionism" it's at 1hour 30 mins or so.
It's worth a look I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4Z-AK_FTEY
The book suggested by Sarah can be got on Kindle
ReplyDeleteSarah,
ReplyDeleteYou can be rude all you want, i don't care. As far differentiating between Jews and Zionists that is all very good and well but if you think it is only Zionist who support the terrorist state of Israel then you are the one who is ignorant.
I am fed up tip toeing about this subject, the terrorist state of Israel was created for Jews, the onslaught in Gaza is done in the name of Judaism yet very few Jews are vocal against Zionism. I know it is more comfortable to blame the powerful Zionist but they couldn't exist without the support of the people.
Just had a to and fro with the British Israel coalition and i stand by with what i said in terms of racist they are on a path with the South African apartheid regime. For every Norman Finkelstein there is a thousand Jews who support the slaughter in Palestine and they have got to be called on it. The can't compare everybody who is critical of their Illegal state with Nazis forever, it is just ridiculous.
Thanks for the reading advice, but i have read enough on this subject, my mind is firmly made up. We are witnessing the wholesale destruction of a people, it highlights our cowardice, and you want me to careful with the language i use? well balls to that. THE JEWS WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL ARE RACIST BASTARDS.
David, it's not a question of being careful with language, it's a question of being accurate, i.e the "jewish race." Of course there is a degree of cultural identity which evolves from generations of sharing a religion and particular customs, but we're not a race. Saying and/or believing otherwise just keeps on oiling that great big zionist hasbara machine.
ReplyDeleteI don't recall seeing evidence on this thread of people tip toeing around the issue of Israel's crimes against humanity/war crimes. In fact the majority of opinions seem remarkably honest and robust. Personally, i appreciate the opportunity to communicate with like minded people.
"For every Norman Finkelstein there is a thousand Jews who support the slaughter in Palestine..." That's not my experience however in the absence of empirical data i'm unable to agree or disagree.
I support your stance against Israel and agree that anyone, jew or otherwise, who supports the zionist entity is a racist.
Re being rude, i did say it wasn't my intention to be so, and i apologise if i was. Having said that, i'm glad you don't care because offending people is not something i like to do, ever. A slightly thick skin must be a blessing. I've been trying to cultivate one for years but alas, so far with little success.
Shalom and best wishes,
Sarah.
David Higgins,
ReplyDeletewho is tiptoeing on the issue your anger might be clouding your vision and is misdirected at Sarah?
Right you have made your case all Jews are evil, now what? Focusing on sectarian politics is ignoring the plight of the people being bombed if nothing else it adds to Israel’s position. And after this massacre is done and all goes quiet this saga will fade as it has done so many, many times before. Until the next round which is inevitable.
It is better to promote the slaughter instead of relegating it to some sort of Jewish pastime. More important than the politics is the need to get humanitarian relief to the people and after that the greater need to have this medieval siege broken.
Why attempt making Sarah or anyone else pro-slaughter if you want to yell at the IDF go to their blog.
Tiarna,
ReplyDeleteI believe I have been stressing that the IDF are intentionally attacking civilians as a tactic to weaken support for Hamas. The human shield factor might be true in some cases but statistically with the heavy death and injured civilian toll that would mean Hamas is on every street corner or the IDF is and have been making no distinction between civilian targets and military targets.
I think that is the difference as the human shield is part of it but the greater part is the intentional targeting of civilians.( Though I could be completely wrong as I might just as easy picked you up wrong.)
If today’s story is true that Hamas captured 1 soldier and killed 2 others then the resulting action from Israel will and already has taken a toll on civilians. The much needed humanitarian aid will not get through and even though I believe Israel’s gesture of a humanitarian truce was the perfect excuse for them to resupply their munitions as they literally bombed Gaza so much their supply dwindle.
If Hamas decided that the hollow victory was worth denying the people humanitarian aid they are guilty and complicit in aiding the Israeli’s. At this stage off the slaughter it has no propaganda value and if the captured soldier lives after the invasion then Israel and Hamas will probably do the prisoner exchange.
In the mean time it is the civilians that are and will continue to pay the price.
Coincidently Secretary of State for the U S John Kerry is in Qatar asking the friends of Hamas to put the pressure on them to release the captured soldier.
But that is not the reason he is in that region as Israel justify the slaughter with their war on Hamas terrorists Kerry is sipping whatever the local brew is in Qatar who just happen to fund Hamas but that is not even the cincher Kerry is in that region doing a wee bit of high tech arms selling billions of U S dollars worth for the more friendly nations just in case Iraq falls.
Nice of him to call for the release of 1 prisoner and ignore the fact that he is now being held in a bombed to dust open prison but now Israel runs the risk of bombing one of its own soldiers unless they get hard intelligence on where he is being kept.
Anthony,
ReplyDeletethon slime bag Marg Regev if he falls out of favour he can always get a job as a weaver as he certainly knows how to spin yarns I can see why as both Gobshites are cut from the same cloth.
With the damage inflicted on the RM by Steaknife it would be safe to assume that Israel has their own version in Hamas. Israeli intelligence would operate much the same as MI5/6.
Tain Bo, "Hopefully the promised humanitarian ceasefire holds though I am a little skeptical of that?" How right you were.
ReplyDeleteA.M, re Mark Regev, during operation cast lead i became unable to listen to Regev. He and his narrative became as physically sickening to me as seeing the broken bodies of Palestinians.
Listening to him now puts me in mind of a surreal, never ending Kafkaesque nightmare.
All i know of Danny Morrison comes mostly from what i have read about him in Richard O'Rawe's Blanketmen and Afterlives, and he seems utterly poisonous.
Sarah,
ReplyDeletere Morrison, there is a badness there that we normally do not see in people, even those we may dislike.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI would prefer my skepticism had been proven invalid the reason I was skeptical is the prior language and signs didn’t quite add up to a wholly sincere humanitarian gesture.
My thoughts were on the coincidental timing of the supposed truce there was a hint of suspicion considering the IDF were almost tapped out of heavy munitions and the report was they were tapping into a local American munitions well.
Perhaps that was just the polite news feed as it is more likely that the munitions would have to be supplied by air as I doubt the American’s just store munitions in a major hotspot.
Regardless of which side canceled out the much needed relief only underscores how insanely barbaric this is as once again the innocent people are ignored it is beyond sickening and as you say an unending Kafkaesque nightmare oddly enough Kafka is one of my favourite writers, which sounds like a luxury to mention given the atrocities being inflicted on a people that are somehow trying to survive.
Even with all the news and images it still does not convey the horror it is a very sad reflection on our so called morals and ethics perchance you are correct and we are a godforsaken people.
As for Danny Morrison he was the mouth piece for Sinn Fein/PIRA. I had to read Anthony’s description a few times as if I had anything good to say about the man I could write it on a postage stamp and still have room for a short essay.
From a spectators point of view you argue extremely well I got the impression that David Higgins is boxing out of his weight. I hope he doesn’t find reason to be disturbed with the word Shalom.
A.M, "re Morrison, there is a badness there that we normally do not see in people, even those we may dislike."
ReplyDeleteThat's a big statement to make. I have read quite a lot of your work, including Good Friday: The Death of Irish Republicanism. I'm not an expert on 6 county history and politics but for what it's worth, i've found that your facts are verifiable and your opinions fair and objective. So i'm inclined to think that for you to say such a thing about Morrison, he really must be truly, deep down inside bad.
Tain Bo, thank you for your support re David Higgins' comments. Maybe he didn't mean to be so unkind, but i take these things personally anyway. Not so much for myself, but when i look at my little girls in the context of comments like that, it really, really hurts. So thank you.
I agree that that the humanitarian needs of the innocent civilians in Gaza can so easily become sidelined by the politics and sniping sectarianism of those who have such a burning desire to prove or at least make a point. Such points are not very important at the moment, only their suffering is.
Those who are so quick to point out that Hamas use civilians as human shields would do well to remember that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on our poor, fractured earth, and unlike in most conflict situations, for example Sudan, Rwanda, Bosnia etc there are no borders for the Palestinians to cross in order to flee from the bombardments.
Best wishes
Sarah.
A.M, I have a twitter a/c but i don't tweet because i don't really understand it. Shame, i know! I use it to keep up with the news when i'm out and about.
ReplyDeleteTain bo,
ReplyDeleteWhat the fuck are you talking about? who said all Jews were evil? Jews have to take responsibility for what is being done in their name or at least what Zionist are professing is in their name. In the same way the Germans or any peoples whose government were committing atrocities have an obligation to speak out.
As for boxing outwith my weight, are you cracked? do you think anybody gives a shit about your intellectual bullshit? So you can write a column, condescend to people, well done. As far as I can tell with you, your just a pontificating bore, although I could be wrong, I don't know, cause you don't write under your own name.
You might get a wee rush thinking your coming to Sarah aide with your nonsensical comments but Sarah can make her own arguments, very well, you didn't bring anything to that debate apart from sounding like a sanctimonious tit.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteIf I offended you that was never my intention. I am just trying to be pragmatic about the realities if you don't agree with my assertions then fine, but I was never trying to make you or anybody feel bad and if I did you have my complete apology, although I will stand by my arguments.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome, I think David was out of order I don’t mind him having a go at me “talking nonsense” I notice he bypassed my response and took umbrage at your comment. I am not as generous and as he said he doesn’t care in other words only take’s onboard what he wants which ironically is a striking parallel with the current Israeli government they don’t care and only hear what they want.
You have a right to take it personal I am unsure how angry anti-Jewish sectarian diatribe will alleviate the situation in Gaza. Perhaps if you had been commenting in favour of the shelling that would be different but considering you have been highlighting the plight the misdirected anger makes even less sense.
The other problem being it is the environment that the computer creates at times we forget we are talking with people and people we don’t know.
Your comments are well thought out, intelligent and balanced. I ordered a copy of the book you recommended unlike David I have a lot to learn.
It is almost a month and the other ugly side of consequences will be felt with a lack of food comes malnutrition a lack of proper medical care brings disease and illness and I am sure we don’t hear about people that have died indirectly from the destruction. A lack of running water, creating unsanitary conditions, the psychological damage the list of problems is endless.
I don’t believe the sniping sectarian comments make any point being rude is one thing but spewing blatant hatred is not helping.
Don’t let it put you off posting and certainly don’t feel you need be apologetic being well mannered doesn’t mean you have to take guff and no matter how careful we chose our words there will always be someone who feels offended or that their point is always right.
In this case the only thing that would be right is an end to the suffering.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteI am not too au faith with it myself. I rarely if ever tweeted although many people though I did when my wife would tweet and retweet from TPQ. In the past few days I have done a bit because of Gaza. And I snap and snarl when it doesn't do what I want it to!
This can be a robust site where things flare up and die down as quickly. David has been making assertive and intelligent contributions for quite some time and his form suggests to me that he was not trying to hurt or insult. While I disagree with his comments I never considered them in the mould of anti-Semitic hatred otherwise they would have been sent to the Sewer with Der Sturmer, the section we have on site for the hate purveyors and which we have had to use in the past week. The point David made while in my view wrong is best addressed through engagement rather than disengagement. That way people who actually do think about things might think again. Alfie Gallagher said to me recently that he had read somewhere that a distinguishing feature of a critical mind is that it will change its view about something substantial around once a year. So for that change to happen with any of us we have to allow for the fact that we can be wrong often enough. This site does not treat being wrong as a disease, something to be quarantined. Without prejudice to the above row, there is a huge gulf between being woefully wrong and being wilfully wicked.
That answers questions you never raised but I hope it is nevertheless useful.
Tain bo,
ReplyDeleteI lost the plot a bit on that last comment, I was being insulting and childish and for that i apologize. That been said and done your insinuating i am some sort of anti-semite which is bullshit, I am tried of that being used as an argument, it is not relevant, every argument i have with Zionist groups there is an "never again" undertone while i can understand it, i don't think anti-Semitic behaviour is a big problem in modern society. I can only speak for myself, but I don't know anybody who has a grudge against Jews, I know a lot of sectarian bigots, was one myself, I have a friend who dislikes Poles, given our history with immigration I can't understand that, but I don't know anybody who is anti-Semitic.
I haven't the academic skills of some on here, so maybe what i say gets lost a bit however, I am sick being labeled some sort of Nazi lover for criticizing silence in Jewish quarters. I don't know what comment of yours i was supposed to have ignored, so maybe you can enlighten me. I do take umbrage with saying i was attacking Sarah, that's nonsense, she said" i don't mean to be rude" which is one of the most condescending thing to say to somebody implying i was thick, so i replied, what of it? I don't think i was out of line with Sarah, but the lady did, so i apologized. Then you come in with you patronizing remarks again implying that people who don't but into your there is two sides to blame theory is a moron.
What is happening in Palestine is a slaughter not a war, it has got to the stage where i wish there was Spanish civil war type brigades, so i could at least try to help rather than just go on the net and rant, it boils my blood this infanticide. I know i happens in other countries, but it has been going on in Palestine for a century and what has the world done about it? fuck all.
Anyway I don't agree with your comments or your implications and attitude but i was out of line in that last comment and for that i apologize.
David, ditto re not intending to offend. In which case no apology needed, but thank you anyway for your very gracious message.
ReplyDeleteRe people needing to take responsibility for the actions of their governments, i couldn't agree more. Thing is though, the Israeli govt. isn't the government of anyone who isn't an Israeli citizen, because there's no such thing as jewish nationality. Except in zionist discourse, but we all know that's nonsense. Evil, powerful and dangerous, yes, but still nonsense. Having said that, as a human being, like you and every other person who has contributed to this thread, i feel an intense responsibility to use my voice to defend any other human being, whatever their race, religion etc, who needs to be defended, from general unfairness right through to the ultimate evil that we are seeing now, the slaughter of innocents.
Should we try harder to avoid these petty disagreements and clashes of ego, (i know i'm as guilty of this as the next person), because i'm certain we're all on the side of decency and humanity and as Tain Bo so rightly said, these squabbles serve no purpose other than to distract us from the important issue.
David, to me it is thoroughly tragic that so many non israeli born jews around the world feel such incomprehensible loyalty to israel. I'm more than prepared to be corrected here but i think it is the result of 70 years of zionist manipulation of the legacy and collective memory of the holocaust. I appreciate that you said you'd read enough on the subject, but if you do decide to read just one more book i thoroughly recommend The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. He unpicks and destroys many modern myths, but more importantly, he resurrects and then shines a very bright light onto many deliberately buried truths.
Tain Bo, the bad feeling which suddenly sprung up yesterday did make me feel sad and also anxious about having contributed to it. As you said earlier though, personal opinions are inconsequential, they matter only as a way to keep the suffering of the Gazan people in the spotlight. (I did appreciate you being kind though.)
A.M, re "the Sewer with Der Sturmer" Sounds scary! Seriously though, i think it's a brilliant idea to have an alternative area where people can have their say without fear of censorship, but at the same time ensuring that others are not confronted with repulsive comments. Poor you though, having to read it all.
Re "... answers questions you never raised but I hope it is nevertheless useful." Yes, very helpful and much appreciated. Thank you.
Best wishes to all
Sarah.
David, i genuinely didn't know that saying "i don't mean to be rude" is condescending, and i had no idea that anything i'd said implied that you are "thick." I wouldn't do such a thing, even if i thought it was true, which i absolutely don't.
ReplyDeleteHere on TPQ is the first time i've joined in public online conversations and i've been writing as if i was speaking. I didn't stop to consider how different this is to having an actual live conversation in which tone of voice, facial expressions, body language etc make it so much easier to see how genuine the person you're speaking to is. I will be more mindful of this in future.
It's so easy to casually say "i'm sorry" without any real feeling but David, i really am genuinely sorry for giving the impression that i was being nasty about you.
For what it's worth i think you've made some really good, interesting points. I'm sorry that we got off to such a bad start and really hope we can have better interactions in future.
Best wishes
Sarah.
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your lovely, measured response. I let my emotions get the better of me and went on the defensive. I apologize. It is just i feel so strongly about this subject, maybe i went looking for a fight. You sound like a lovely, compassionate human being, on the other hand I sound like an angry thug, forgive me I am not usually this judgmental or obnoxious, so well I stand by my points, the way I conducted myself was embarrassing, so again, forgive me.
David,
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with losing the bap with me as in a sense I invited it. Don’t take this the wrong way but it did make me laugh not at you but at myself. And to be clear there is no offense taken on my part. You certainly don’t owe me an apology the slaughter makes blood boil and exchanges will be heated with a passion.
We are not supporting the slaughter my argument is simple Israel is wrong but literally until the dust settles and the entire truth rises from the rubble then we shall see the entire picture and with that it will be difficult for the apologists to ignore the truth.
You have been knocking about here a few years so you know how the back and forth plays out. New commenter’s are at a disadvantage and since it is on the computer it is easy to miss the subtle nuances that may suggest they are not as rough and tumble as the regulars.
It would be different if you were some random buck eejit your contributions add to the Quill as you are clearly not short on intellect.
David if you were a Neo Nazi there would not be any point in me talking with you. This is not about intellectualism you present your argument with clarity and I fully understand your stance I said so as much in my comment of 11:27 PM, July 31, 2014 :
“Certainly I can admire your anger and honesty but your argument is not with me and mine is not for Israel or Hamas. I could use terms that you and others choose but somehow what initial anger I held gave way to looking at the people not as Arabs but simply as victims for slaughter.
I am siding with the people not their destruction and as I said prior I don’t care if comments are pro, anti, or indifferent as long as it stays in focus as that is the reality people will side with what they believe as we are busy deciding they are busy being bombed into dust.”
I am sure in amongst the readers gallery there is bound to be some with a pro- Israel mindset but to date they remain silent here on the Quill I would welcome hearing from any pro-Israeli.
I believe my point was more about what I view as your misdirected anger I have no problems if you hammer me as that is not an issue and I am not about to fallout with you my intention was not to be condescending as over the years I have respect for you and your comments. I was not intentionally attacking your integrity or your intelligence and on that I am sorry for offending you.
I disagree with you on “I don’t mean to be rude” being condescending manners in no way implies anyone is thick. It was clearly sincere and not meant to be offensive.
How do you conclude that there is only one side and how do you avoid calling it a war as the machines of war are in use overwhelmingly a one sided war but what is the difference between Hamas rockets and light gunfire and the IDFs heavy weapons.(I don't mean the very obvious difference) If innocent Israeli’s were being slaughtered on the same level would that make some feel better?...
...
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no intellectual value in the article what you or anyone takes from it is beyond my control my position might not be popular it is just another voice against the slaughter.
“THE JEWS WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL ARE RACIST BASTARDS” I could say that contradicts your claim of not being a racist as you spilt the difference saying the Jews who are anti-war are sound but those that support the war are racist.
The problem with that is you can’t account for every Jew’s thoughts I prefer to think of them as emotionally vulnerable as human being as human as those under siege being slaughtered. Are the over 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel inhuman for not rising up in defence of the people a few miles away? No, they are helpless as helpless as we are.
Do you believe this would not have happened with or without popular support from Jewish quarters people should be extremely angry but that anger should be directed at the current Israeli government and their powerful allies who mutter such inhuman words as please try and not kill as many civilians thank you very much your mucker the American government.
It is not a great comparison but this reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising the humiliated people fought back against the Nazi might they fought bravely with little (sounds familiar) but were no match for the brutal Nazis they were crushed. At the same time the now mighty Red army sat watching the slaughter and waited for the Germans to wipe out the people and when it was done they moved against the Nazis.
In this case the IDF look like Nazis and the west the red army! Powerful governments are always going to side with one and other.
As I said I don’t care if comments are pro, anti, or indifferent we would be wrong to remain silent as the slaughter continues.
When the war was on in the north we unconsciously reduced it to “The Troubles” a 3 sided war with a not so squeaky clean record for all sides.
All the best David
Sarah,
ReplyDeleteYour opinions or thoughts are welcomed; I don’t see why you believe you contributed to the bad feeling. Things here at times go off on an expected tangent that fizzles out the regulars are like a dysfunctional family at times myself included but in general the peace is restored and the topic usually gets back on thread.
This is the only place I post and years ago I was very reluctant to do so as it wasn’t something that I do but once I passed by the swings and roundabouts I ended up unintentionally becoming a regular poster.
Your comments are well thought out and the bickering shouldn’t cause you to feel anxious. You might not have noticed but you are already becoming part of the furniture.
Tain,
ReplyDeleteI made an eejit of myself, there's no getting away from that. I was raging with the situation, went on a wee rant, made a fool of myself. My point is the silence on this subject, globally, not just in Jewish quarters is sickening. The other day there the Pope was calling for an end to the conflict, and i am screaming at the t.v it's not a conflict, it's slaughter. Comments like that, even though anti-war legitimise the Zionist agenda in my eyes.
In hindsight singling out the Jewish reaction can very easily be interpreted as racist. It just when i saw the crowds cheering as the missiles landed, i come over with a cold rage, but generalizing all Jews in occupied Palestine as racist was just fucking stupid. Is there no depth the human psyche will not delve to? you touched on it before we were no angels over here, after Billy Wright died for example, we went to an old firm match and sang Billy Wright bang, bang bang for the whole match, but i just can't imagine us sitting on the mountain cheering as missiles hit kids in the Shankhill. I just can't get my head round that, no matter how much, history or hatred you'd think somebody in the crowd would say, here, that's children dying down there.
I know this callousness is a global problem and not special to Palestine, but it disgust me none the less, I feel helpless when it comes to Palestine, you can protest and agitate all you want but there is no end to it, no credible negotiations. Earlier we were talking about Hamas launching rockets and on the face of it, it is just as an immoral act as the i.d.f launching missiles, but that easy to say sitting in comfort, if we lived in Gaza, a concentration camp, constant land grabs over the last 70 years, constant military bombardment resulting in the murder of our children, would we be so critical then?
I don't know what options are left to the Palestinians, they are used as target practice, treated as non-entities in their own land how else can they progress? their enemy shows no mercy, they have to show some resistance. Any way to finish my wee rant against you, the condescending stuff, was nonsense, knew i was losing the plot and stated lashing out, when i read it back i was a wee bit embarrassed, what can you do, just got to laugh at yourself, that's it for me on this thread well, until i watch the news and loss the plot again!
David,
ReplyDeletestop beating yourself up over it. At worst you lost the run of yourself a bit. It happens to everyone.
My own view is that what is said in a comment unless a downright gratuitous insult is a first draft not the finished item. Generally we should not hold people to what they say in comments as it is often a case of them thinking out loud or practicing their ideas. They should be encouraged rather than excoriated. Those trying to learn do learn, those here for something else end up being ignored.
From Tain Bo
ReplyDeleteDavid,
I agree with Anthony on this minor bit I don’t think you look foolish as you would have to display the quality of Mickey Henry or even one tenth of his logic in order to meet the eegit requirement.
The slaughter is stomach churning sickening and the anger is as natural as air. Just as nauseating is the bitter truth that there are those who agree with the slaughter not just from Jewish quarters but all quarters from shameless government to ordinary people.
If people were not angry that would be disturbing all we can do is voice against the slaughter anyone I have spoke with feels the same helplessness and guilt for not being able to help the Palestinians. If there is anything good it would be support for the besieged people is growing. I try to find articles and videos that express outrage against the Israeli government and the silence of its powerful allies it offers a bit of human hope in contrast to the inhuman butchery.
I can’t fathom why there is not more outrage or why this invasion was allowed to begin with over 1700 helpless people murdered I don’t think there is need to debate what the true intentions of the Israeli government are.
I think those interested might want to read this article a friend sent me.
Again David all the best and keep hammering away at this evil regime.
The link is
I agree with you Tain Bo. If more people spoke out with such passion then surely the world would be a better place?
ReplyDeleteDavid, after things on this thread calmed down, i re read what you'd written without my inbuilt defensiveness distorting things, and i have to agree that there are far too few jews in israel and around the world who are prepared to stand up and shout "NOT IN MY NAME!" and i don't believe it's racist to say so.
Sarah.
Sarah,
ReplyDeletethe humanity displayed here and elsewhere from ordinary people puts governments to shame. If we strip away the labels it is just a powerful people crushing a weak and humiliated people.
Each day I hope it ends but each day brings new horrifying images I don’t wish to look at them but do so out of fear of crossing that fine line between being human and inhuman.
If I refuse to look at the truth I am just as guilty as those who inflict this wholesale butchery. It is uplifting to see the support for the Palestinians and more remarkable that the besieged people somehow have the will and strength to hold out with little too nothing but each other.
When it ends it will be a relief but I have that nagging thought of what next will their plight just fade or will the world wise up and make sure this doesn’t keep repeating itself in this endless loop and give these people a free homeland and all the rights that free nations have.