You Want an Inquiry into Pat Finucane? Well, Wait Until you see What we can do on you!

By AM Sunday, May 18, 2014

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Stephen Nolan (SN) interviews former Sinn Féin publicity director Danny Morrison (DM) about the arrest of Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams in connection with the “disappearing” of Jean McConville. The Interview took place on 2 May 2014.


BBC Radio Ulster

The Stephen Nolan Show


(begins time stamp 17:31)


SN: The former Sinn Féin publicity director Danny Morrison with us this morning. Good Morning to you, Danny.

DM: Good Morning, Stephen.

SN: Good Morning. Shaun Woodward has said that this is a tense and dangerous time for Northern Ireland. Is it?
DM: Well, I think it's certainly a very difficult period. I think that the cumulative effect of a lot of instances that've been happening over the last year or two chip away at people's confidence in the project to build a new dispensation here. You know the suspension of the Historical Enquiries Team over double standards and how they investigate cases, the effects of the PSNI clearly perhaps influenced, at least this is the perception, influenced by those members, former members of the RUC, who took their compensation but then came back in through the back door again. So these are the perceptions. The perception is ... I's almost as if, and I know this is simplistic, the British government are saying to us: so you want an inquiry into Pat Finucane? Well wait until you see what we can do on you! And that's just the feeling. There's a lot of anger within Nationalist and Republican circles over this.

SN: But where is the evidence for this conspiracy? Either the police will have enough evidence to arrest an individual or they will not. And this is again yet another situation, Danny, is it not? With the police in a no-win situation. Had it ever had been discovered that they had enough information to arrest Mr. Adams and they hadn't have done so they would have been criticised all day long. They arrest Mr. Adams and you've got Martin McGuinness and people like yourself accusing them of political policing. So how can they win?

DM: Well, first of all they've had these tapes for over a year so they know what's in them.

SN: You don't know what else they have.

DM: Well we know that I think the interviews with nine people were repatriated out of twenty-six interviews after the Boston judge was allowed to go through all of the tapes but he was only allowed to send back those section that stated the Jean McConville case. No doubt the PSNI perhaps will feel that there's more to be gained. They can mine this ore over and over again. I don't know. But he point is this - and this is the perception: The perception is that six weeks ago Gerry Adams' solicitor contacted them and said: my name has arisen again, I'm anxious to put this aside, to put it to bed, I'm prepared to meet you and they don't set up a date. They then set up a date, six weeks later, the arrangement is that he goes to the police station – he walks through the door and he is arrested. Now bear with me- bear with me - let me finish here, alright?

SN: But the police choose a date. It's not for Gerry Adams or anyone else in this society to choose a date. The police choose a date.

DM: That is correct. But they had the choice of the date. They had a choice of arresting him or asking him to come the station in three months time, right? So people, naturally, think it is not a coincidence about the date. Then...

SN: So you think the police should wait until after an election?

DM: No. No, I don't. But I don't think he should have been arrested and the reason I say this is because of this: the paratroopers who were involved in Bloody Sunday - they were given a phone call - bring along your MoD lawyer. They had, you know, tea and buns with the Crown lawyer. Was any of those people arrested? No. The people who killed mother of eight Mrs. Joan Connolley in Ballymurphy - Fr. Hugh Mullan - going to a man's aide? Has any of them been arrested? The paratroopers involved? No. We're not even getting an inquiry into it. So what the people are angry about is the double standards. If there's going to be justice it has to be fair, it has to be consistent and it has to be universal.

SN: Well, you see it's interesting that you use the word “consistent” here. Because there is a challenge to Sinn Féin and indeed to Martin McGuinness - and I single Martin McGuinness out because of his role as the Deputy First Minister in this country – now yes, Gerry Adams is a friend, Gerry Adams obviously is a long-time colleague of his and he feels the need to defend him. But Martin McGuinness, in his official position as the Deputy First Minister of this country, has got to be seen as not just supporting the rule of law in this country but Sinn Féin supports the PSNI! So can he just, can he just...this is beyond criticism as some Sinn Féin members yesterday is it not? Let me put the question to you: Is this not beyond simple criticism for Martin McGuinness - when it suits him - to say that the police are involved in essentially “dark arts”...that the police are involved in manipulating let us say a situation? Now, how much does that undermine the confidence that there needs to be in this community for the rule of law and order, for the justice system and for the police of this country, some of whom put their lives on the line to protect us in this country? Has he not been irresponsible? One day when it suits him he says he supports law and order and the police. And the next day the police are all of a sudden involved in manipulation, in “dark arts”, in trying to undermine an election campaign...that would be extraordinary in any other country.

DM: You left out several things there. You left out the fact that because he has supported the PSNI he has been threatened with death by dissident Republicans - the slogans that have been put up about him - that he has supported the PSNI.

SN: (through crosstalk) But hasn't he underdone that in one fell swoop right now?

DM: There's no one in any country, you included, that gives the police force a blank check. Nobody does it. Otherwise they'd have been no Hillsborough Inquiry. We'd just believe the police. We'd take their word for it. There's no corruption in the London Metropolitan Police. We'd take their word for it. There's nothing going on down South in the Garda and phone tapping and people getting off with traffic fines. We'll take their word for it. Nobody gets a blank check. And the fact of the matter is Martin McGuinness is reflecting a perception. He has said that he knows other people in the PSNI who have confided in him their concerns. So it's not made up. It isn't made up that they've had the possession of these tapes with allegations by people who weren't prepared to stand over these allegation when they were alive - very cowardly - left booby traps behind for the rest of us because they despise Gerry Adams, they despise the Good Friday Agreement, they hate the peace process, they want to turn the clock back..

SN: But...

DM: ...now hold on a minute. So the police have had these tapes for quite a while. The only person they arrested and charged was on the eighteenth of March. Shortly after thereafter, that is six weeks ago...six weeks ago Gerry Adams contacts them. Now, you're saying should they wait until after the election? No, of course not. They should do it at their convenience but the perception is that it is not coincidental a) that the date that is arranged and sprung on him is in the middle of a campaign...

SN: Well it's a perception put out by Sinn Féin, Danny, isn't it?

DM: No. It's a broad perception in the Nationalist community! Either you understand that or you don't accept it. People are angry. People see this as the war being fought by other means. It's the British government saying you want your inquiry into Pat Finucane - look what we can do!

SN: You see, I'll just repeat the point and I'll do in a much more succinct way: What does a young Republican now do? What does a young Nationalist now do if they do indeed want to support the rule of law and order in this country, if they do indeed want to bring information to the police? Do they listen to what Martin McGuinness has said nearly every other day of the year which is: support the rule of law and order and the police in this country. Or - are they now to look at their leader, Martin McGuinness, and think: hold on a minute...he's telling me that the police are involved in “dark arts”. He's telling me essentially that the police cannot be trusted. So you see that's why I come back to how major a statement it was from Martin McGuinness last night to say that. Because with those words comes a directive to his community. Can his community trust the police any more or not?

DM: First of all I do support the PSNI. And I think that it's very foolish if for example if these suspicions and this perception are correct. Then people, for short-term gain, are damaging the credibility of the PSNI and leaving us a huge problem because Sinn Féin, and I'm a supporter of Sinn Féin, Sinn Fein have invested all, all of their political capital and credibility in this project of a new dispensation - of building a new future for the people - of going into the establishment: Stormont, that institution that symbolised fifty years of second-class citizenship, of agreeing to the amendments of Articles Two and Three of supporting the police, of supporting the new judiciary. So Sinn Féin has a lot to lose. But Martin McGuinness' credibility would be even more damaged if he wasn't to tell the truth how it's seen and how it's felt on the ground.

SN: So is his support for the police now withdrawn?

DM: I don't think so?

SN: But he thinks they're involved in “dark arts” and he thinks they are trying to undermine an election.

DM: No. He did not say that the entire hierarchy of the PSNI and membership of the PSNI are all out to subvert Sinn Féin. He did not say that.

SN: He fired a pretty strong message about the PSNI didn't he? And he made a helluva accusation, Danny.

DM: Yes, but he didn't quantify it. He didn't quantify it. If he was to turn around and say that the entire PSNI hierarchy and everybody in the PSNI were all unreformed Loyalists and MI5 people yes, we'd be in amazing difficulty here. But the fact of the matter is - it is as we have seen it. A man agrees to go along people in other circumstances for example, on the other side - members of the RUC, members of the British Army against whom allegations are made of involvement in unlawful killing - are invited to come along with their lawyer. They walk in the door, they have a cup of tea, they walk out the door afterwards. Some of them by the way refused to come along and refused to cooperate and they're not subject to anything. But Adams, who volunteers to go along to sort this out, is arrested and so the perception, listen … the perception is amongst the Unionist community and amongst large sections of the media is that Adams is guilty until he proves himself innocent!

SN: Well, it's obvious then you'll understand why I'm saying this: Mr. Adams is afforded the same rights as any other individual in this society which is he is absolutely innocent unless he is proven guilty in a court of law. Final question, Danny, final question: And what do these statements from Sinn Féin - how they about now feel about the police and the integrity of the police in this country - what does that say to a young Catholic who is thinking of joining the police?

DM: Well, I don't know what effect it would have – it depends on how this pans out.

SN: What does it say to the dissidents or any young member of society who is thinking of going the wrong way and joining the dissidents and attacking or trying to kill the police when Sinn Féin use language like that? What does it say to them?

DM: They're laughing their way to the arms dump.

SN: But what does it say? What does the Sinn Féin statement say to someone thinking of joining a group to kill the police, to maim the police, when the Deputy First Minister of this country accuses the police of having done what he accuses them of having done?

DM: There's a huge difference between if Peter Robinson criticises the police you cannot extrapolate that from he's now encouraging them to now go out and kill them.

SN: I didn't say that. (through crosstalk) I'm saying with his position in Sinn Féin and Deputy First Minister comes responsibility is what I'm saying.

DM: I no longer am oppressed. I'm no longer disenfranchised. I'm no longer second-class. There's still legacy problems here, clearly - need to be resolved. There's no room for armed struggle. Let that be clear. That is Martin McGuinness' position. That is our position. We are into a peace process. But managing that peace process and the politics of it have clearly proven much more complicated and difficult that any of us envisaged twenty years ago.

SN: Okay, (gives out studio's phone number). We'll continue this discussion this morning after the news. (ends time stamp 30:50)