Guest writer Sean Bresnahan with a
personal piece on what he feels is Sinn Fein's desire to muzzle the One Ireland-One Vote campaign.
Following the write-up in yesterday's Belfast Telegraph and related criticism by Provisional Sinn Fein regarding the appearance of the One Ireland-One Vote logo on the hills above Belfast to mark Republic Day, one surely wonders why are Jim McVeigh and Sinn Fein so upset about calls for a democratic all-Ireland referendum on Irish reunification? Apparently that's their stated aim (when they're not busy bringing along Britain's normalisation agenda for partition and the six-counties). A sad day for Ireland, just when you thought they couldn't sink any lower. Just who does McVeigh think he is to criticise and attempt to discredit and blacken the 1916 Societies as a 'dissident' organisation ... 'Dissident'?
What a cheap shot - plain to be seen Flash and Co. are fast becoming concerned at the loss of what was once their core support at a time before they morphed into the SDLP. The 1916 Societies, including the Thomas Ashe Society here in Omagh of which I'm proud to be a member, are simply republicans and there's no other label that can or should be attached to them.
We are a non-violent political movement that refuses to acknowledge the right of Britain to remain in this country against the democratic wishes of the Irish people - that's all there is to it. We have no military analysis or strategy, instead we demand an all-Ireland referendum and concentrate our efforts on mounting a political campaign to bring such a referendum about. What on earth could ever lead someone to criticise this strategy as 'dissident' or, to use his other risible turn of phrase, a 'sell out'? It's simply a disingenuous attempt to discredit what we're about by linking it to the violence of other groups who we've no more association with than Sinn Fein have themselves.
Who are they to say we can't succeed given that they have failed and failed utterly, becoming totally dependent on the British arrangements for Ireland to the point where they have to go along with the many faults, problems, injustices and abuses of that British system itself? The Emperor has no clothes and the republican people of Belfast, Tyrone, South Derry and all across the country are finally starting to realise they've been sold a lemon - and they are responding by answering the call of the 1916 Societies. Societies are springing up all across the thirty-two and that I suspect is McVeigh's real issue, that and the calibre of people involved. We certainly do not oppose peace but for sure we refuse to go along with implementing British policy in Ireland and normalising the occupation of our country. And all for a British pay-check, truth be told.
McVeigh and those like him spreading this sort of black propaganda simply can't handle the emergence and indeed the rapid growth of an alternative to their failed political approach that has near bankrupted Irish republicanism. They realise that they're becoming more and more exposed as the same type of quisling's who administered Vichy France during that country's occupation and that's the real problem here. The numbers in Carrickmore, Derry and elsewhere over Easter tells its own story as to how the republican people are starting to view what Sinn Fein have ended up doing the past few years.
One Ireland-One Vote! How could he even argue against such a position? Partitionist Sinn Fein stands exposed for what it now is, part and parcel of Britain's illegitimate presence in our country. That they now recognise the legitimacy of an internal six-county poll as somehow an exercise in Irish self-determination says it all and demonstrates for all to see the road travelled. Mitchell McLaughlin last year intimated his party would accept the legitimacy of a border poll and would accept such a poll's right to determine the political arrangements in all of Ireland - a partitionist position and not a republican one.
How on earth did it ever end up this way? It's time the republican people of this country recognised the Jim McVeigh's of this world for what they are - people more concerned about their own position and the position of their party than they are with Ireland and its people. My God it's sad to see it end up this way after all the effort that went into building the Sinn Fein movement - efforts which the vast majority of us in the Societies played no small part in only to watch it flushed away in the rush to be accepted by the British establishment.
One Ireland-One Vote - let the Irish people decide ... What could ever be wrong with that and why would anyone who considers themselves republican have any objection to it? It's worse they are getting.
It's fear that motivates such desperate behaviour, fear that something might emerge that they can't control. Because control is what it's always been about for the Adams coterie. It's also something the Brits have been able to take advantage of because you don't need to convince a movement in such an instance, you only need to convince its leadership who will do the rest. No to the Unionist Veto they said, no return to Stormont they said, no to Patten, no decommissioning, no to Diplock Courts. Each and every time they caved in and granted the Brits what they wanted while deliberately lying to their own that it was 'strategic'. The problem for them is now that people are finally catching up to their lies. The old certainties no longer work the same way. And it terrifies them.
The republican people, at least around here, have already given their answer as to what they think of Sinn Fein. As a republican party they've lost all credibility with the people of Tyrone - so much so that when Lord of War Sean Murray came down here last weekend the only people there to listen to his so-called Easter speech (delivered to a seated audience in a half-empty hall) were those standing for election or otherwise in the pay of the party. No doubt a chastening fall from grace and a real eye-opener. Long gone are the days when the leadership could send down their man to be met by a cheering throng. Those days are over. The following day thousands marched to the Garden of Remembrance in the independently organised commemoration and not even the slurry someone took the trouble to spread round the street could put a dampener on a magnificent, brilliantly organised event.
This tells the story of where things are at, nothing else needs said.
In terms of the Societies it seems an ever-growing number of people share our views and are willing to get behind what we're trying to build. It seems someone or some party is very uncomfortable with that and the thought of where this might be headed. And in sheer desperation they are lashing out. Afraid of a referendum on Irish reunification? Quite pathetic. At the end of the day they themselves refuse to call for an all-Ireland referendum, referring instead to a British designed internal six-county border poll under the remit of the Crown, a bullshit pretence at a strategy for reunification - they simply don't have one. Not while it's subject to the Unionist Veto and the triple lock, the elephant in the room.
Knowing that this reality if exposed carries the likelihood that their tenuous claim to Irish republicanism will disappear with the principles they abandoned long ago, requires the continuation of deception and in turn the need to discredit all and any perceived political opponents. Sadly the Societies are increasingly the target of such a despicable approach. It's nothing short of a disgrace that some would wish to censor and oppress their own community but this unfortunately is where things are now at. Let's hope the ordinary people of Belfast and beyond see through the scare tactics and continue to move away from the failed Sinn Fein leadership. Together let's make One Ireland-One Vote a practical reality and the type of credible alternative to the stale establishment politics of old people all over Ireland are hoping to see emerge.
Similar strategies have been used to advance the political situation in both Scotland and in Catalonia, who will vote for their independence later this year, and have already been applied in the Italian provinces of Veneto and Sardonia in recent months - so we can make this happen regardless of the begrudgers. Let's make it happen. One Ireland! One Vote!
What a cheap shot - plain to be seen Flash and Co. are fast becoming concerned at the loss of what was once their core support at a time before they morphed into the SDLP. The 1916 Societies, including the Thomas Ashe Society here in Omagh of which I'm proud to be a member, are simply republicans and there's no other label that can or should be attached to them.
Who are they to say we can't succeed given that they have failed and failed utterly, becoming totally dependent on the British arrangements for Ireland to the point where they have to go along with the many faults, problems, injustices and abuses of that British system itself? The Emperor has no clothes and the republican people of Belfast, Tyrone, South Derry and all across the country are finally starting to realise they've been sold a lemon - and they are responding by answering the call of the 1916 Societies. Societies are springing up all across the thirty-two and that I suspect is McVeigh's real issue, that and the calibre of people involved. We certainly do not oppose peace but for sure we refuse to go along with implementing British policy in Ireland and normalising the occupation of our country. And all for a British pay-check, truth be told.
McVeigh and those like him spreading this sort of black propaganda simply can't handle the emergence and indeed the rapid growth of an alternative to their failed political approach that has near bankrupted Irish republicanism. They realise that they're becoming more and more exposed as the same type of quisling's who administered Vichy France during that country's occupation and that's the real problem here. The numbers in Carrickmore, Derry and elsewhere over Easter tells its own story as to how the republican people are starting to view what Sinn Fein have ended up doing the past few years.
One Ireland-One Vote! How could he even argue against such a position? Partitionist Sinn Fein stands exposed for what it now is, part and parcel of Britain's illegitimate presence in our country. That they now recognise the legitimacy of an internal six-county poll as somehow an exercise in Irish self-determination says it all and demonstrates for all to see the road travelled. Mitchell McLaughlin last year intimated his party would accept the legitimacy of a border poll and would accept such a poll's right to determine the political arrangements in all of Ireland - a partitionist position and not a republican one.
How on earth did it ever end up this way? It's time the republican people of this country recognised the Jim McVeigh's of this world for what they are - people more concerned about their own position and the position of their party than they are with Ireland and its people. My God it's sad to see it end up this way after all the effort that went into building the Sinn Fein movement - efforts which the vast majority of us in the Societies played no small part in only to watch it flushed away in the rush to be accepted by the British establishment.
One Ireland-One Vote - let the Irish people decide ... What could ever be wrong with that and why would anyone who considers themselves republican have any objection to it? It's worse they are getting.
It's fear that motivates such desperate behaviour, fear that something might emerge that they can't control. Because control is what it's always been about for the Adams coterie. It's also something the Brits have been able to take advantage of because you don't need to convince a movement in such an instance, you only need to convince its leadership who will do the rest. No to the Unionist Veto they said, no return to Stormont they said, no to Patten, no decommissioning, no to Diplock Courts. Each and every time they caved in and granted the Brits what they wanted while deliberately lying to their own that it was 'strategic'. The problem for them is now that people are finally catching up to their lies. The old certainties no longer work the same way. And it terrifies them.
The republican people, at least around here, have already given their answer as to what they think of Sinn Fein. As a republican party they've lost all credibility with the people of Tyrone - so much so that when Lord of War Sean Murray came down here last weekend the only people there to listen to his so-called Easter speech (delivered to a seated audience in a half-empty hall) were those standing for election or otherwise in the pay of the party. No doubt a chastening fall from grace and a real eye-opener. Long gone are the days when the leadership could send down their man to be met by a cheering throng. Those days are over. The following day thousands marched to the Garden of Remembrance in the independently organised commemoration and not even the slurry someone took the trouble to spread round the street could put a dampener on a magnificent, brilliantly organised event.
This tells the story of where things are at, nothing else needs said.
In terms of the Societies it seems an ever-growing number of people share our views and are willing to get behind what we're trying to build. It seems someone or some party is very uncomfortable with that and the thought of where this might be headed. And in sheer desperation they are lashing out. Afraid of a referendum on Irish reunification? Quite pathetic. At the end of the day they themselves refuse to call for an all-Ireland referendum, referring instead to a British designed internal six-county border poll under the remit of the Crown, a bullshit pretence at a strategy for reunification - they simply don't have one. Not while it's subject to the Unionist Veto and the triple lock, the elephant in the room.
Knowing that this reality if exposed carries the likelihood that their tenuous claim to Irish republicanism will disappear with the principles they abandoned long ago, requires the continuation of deception and in turn the need to discredit all and any perceived political opponents. Sadly the Societies are increasingly the target of such a despicable approach. It's nothing short of a disgrace that some would wish to censor and oppress their own community but this unfortunately is where things are now at. Let's hope the ordinary people of Belfast and beyond see through the scare tactics and continue to move away from the failed Sinn Fein leadership. Together let's make One Ireland-One Vote a practical reality and the type of credible alternative to the stale establishment politics of old people all over Ireland are hoping to see emerge.
Similar strategies have been used to advance the political situation in both Scotland and in Catalonia, who will vote for their independence later this year, and have already been applied in the Italian provinces of Veneto and Sardonia in recent months - so we can make this happen regardless of the begrudgers. Let's make it happen. One Ireland! One Vote!
Thanks as always Anthony for allowing me to avail of this forum
ReplyDeleteWell what can I add Sean to a piece which says everything?
ReplyDeleteExcept perhaps wonder... Is Royal Flash more afraid of the brush shaft being rammed up his arse, like Leo Green, than he is of being seen as an complete asshole?
Was it not very long ago that Gerry Adams posted a picture (tweeted) of the Free Leonard Peltier piece that Gael Force erected on the hill? Is Jim McVeigh out of touch with his party leader? Is Jim McVeigh totally against art being used as a political tool? Can we expect to see Danny Deveney lambasted by Jim for his politically motivated art?
ReplyDeleteSean a cara whats wrong with being called a "dissident" I for one am proud to be one ,I dissent from everything quisling $inn £eind stand for or should I say lie down for ie .,partition, brit rule in this part of Ireland,secret courts , touting ,and yes Frankie soon to come welfare reform.they were born out of Dissent and dissent will be the undoing of them ,as for that wanker Mc Veigh well its pretty obvious why the banner on the hillside annoys him ,the lackey probably has to pass it on his way from his Lurgan gaff to visit the plebs in west Belfast whom he is supposed to serve as a councillor,it reminds him of the treachery that he and his cronies are currently engaged in, personally as you know I,d just have stuck up a huge poster of Norman Tebbit.
ReplyDeleteMarty, what will happen (seriously being talked about in the corridors of power) is if call me Dave and his merry men get re-elected in the next general election, people on benefits can forget about receiving their twice monthly giro in the post. You'll be getting vouchers to pay for the bare necessities of life. The powers that be think that people on benefits (most through no fault of their own) spend their money on sex, drugs & rock'n'roll..
ReplyDeleteIn an arse about face way I hope it's implemented for one reason, it's probably the best way to unite the working class on both sides of the oxymoron's.
I'm not scare mongering, on wacky baccy or other. The idea is being talked about. It's already getting back doored in across Scotland, Wales & England..And soon it'll arrive on a door step near you.
Understand what you're saying for sure Marty, it's more the implied connotations I object to... The use of the word to smear opponents
ReplyDeleteFrankie your spot on a cara its the logical conclusion to the end game in which Cameron and his millionaire cabinet are currently engaged, they will use the threat of absolute destitution via sanctions to instill such fear in the labour force that they will be able to drive down wages and working conditions and in turn putting the working class back into their place before trade unions lifted them out of the shit, this time the unions are now lead by such a shower of wannabes that the interests of the membership comes so far down on their agendas that it is as said in animal farm impossible to tell the pigs and humans apart,
ReplyDeleteSean quisling $inn £einds are also like the pigs in animal farm and like the lackeys they are, wallow in the shit their masters provide for them , but like yourself a cara I,m a great believer in Connolly and in particular his final words "we will rise again " we have no other choice a cara .
I too don't mind the "dissenting" tag as I value dissent - no change has ever come from following the stays quo - but I have to agree somewhat with Sean - the term "dissident" has been demonized and is utilized by those who wish to paint any opposing opinion as anti peace and anti people - that narrative they have crafted and cultivated almost to perfection.
ReplyDeleteJames Larkin — 'The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!'
ReplyDeleteSean said:
ReplyDelete'Similar strategies have been used to advance the political situation in both Scotland and in Catalonia, who will vote for their independence later this year, and have already been applied in the Italian provinces of Veneto and Sardonia in recent months - so we can make this happen regardless of the begrudgers. Let's make it happen. One Ireland! One Vote!'
??? So part of the island is entitled to independence from the whole island of Britain , but N.I. is not entitled to be independent from the whole island of Ireland?
The 'Italian provinces of Veneto and Sardonia'are entitled to independence from Italy, and Catalonia from Spain - but Ireland must be one?
Great spot Wolfsbane, that's certainly something I didn't miss when writing the piece. For me there is a fundamental need to respect the Unionist community in the six-counties and to that extent my preferred option for an independent Ireland would be some format of the Eire Nua policy synonymous with Ruairi O'Bradaigh and Daithi O'Connail. That would provide a level of autonomy for the north of the country but at the end of the day in my opinion the Brits have to go. When we look at the grave crimes they have committed in Ireland there can never be any excuse for their continued presence
ReplyDeleteAine, I understand both your and Sean,s concerns and yes indeed the narrative that has been cultivated is not quisling $inn £einds own making ,remember a chairde the sticks used the very same narrative to demonise the prm and who do you think gave the sticks the original script, it,s armed with this knowledge that anything that emanates from those quisling scumbags I personally dismiss as brit propaganda,they as far as I,m concerned have nothing left of relevance to say so I just laugh at the clowns because thats really all that they are, fuck them .
ReplyDeleteSean we witnessed the hypocrisy of unionism last weekend with the Larne celebration of the illegal importation of guns into Ireland and the arming of the uvf, cheered on by ministers from the dup and other unionist politicans these bastions of law and order who shed crocodile tears for the dead of their choosing and condemn terrorism forget it was their fathers seeds that sowed the division of this island undemocratically,Wolfsbane to argue that norn iorn is entitled to be separate from the rest of the island how may I ask do you define norn iorn is it by the gerrymandered protestant majority six counties of the north east of this island,or is it the Ulster province which in actual fact is nine counties and if so you may find that the majority would no longer be unionist therefore invalidating your independence theory,norn Iorn is a bastard state created by bastards for bastards and maintained by bastards and therefore if peace and justice is ever to reach our shores then we need to re establish true democracy that imo is the will of all the people of this island not just those who think they are gods own .
ReplyDeleteSean bres,
ReplyDeleteyou write that "similar strategies have been used to advance the political situation in both Scotland and in Catalonia."
What do you think of Alex Salmond's decision to meet with and shake hands with Liz Windsor?
sean bres said:
ReplyDelete'For me there is a fundamental need to respect the Unionist community in the six-counties'
Good to hear that!
'and to that extent my preferred option for an independent Ireland would be some format of the Eire Nua policy synonymous with Ruairi O'Bradaigh and Daithi O'Connail. That would provide a level of autonomy for the north of the country'
I'm familiar with that proposal. An honourable attempt at compromise. But it was not enough to persuade me back then that a Federal State would respect my civil and religious liberties in any meaningful way - that is, we would still have been pressurized by a Catholic Gaelic agenda. Our identity as non-Gaels is a case in point - how often we are rubbished by Republicans as a non-people; expected to assimilate and become Gaels.
'but at the end of the day in my opinion the Brits have to go. When we look at the grave crimes they have committed in Ireland there can never be any excuse for their continued presence'
The presence of the British State is convenient for us all economically - and for Ulster Protestants/Unionists for their civil and religious liberty. And if past crimes are the basis of not associating with a people, then their can be no place for N.I. in a UI. Irish terror has been as real as British terror.
marty said:
ReplyDelete'Sean we witnessed the hypocrisy of unionism last weekend with the Larne celebration of the illegal importation of guns into Ireland and the arming of the uvf, cheered on by ministers from the dup and other unionist politicans these bastions of law and order who shed crocodile tears for the dead of their choosing and condemn terrorism forget it was their fathers seeds that sowed the division of this island undemocratically,
'Wolfsbane to argue that norn iorn is entitled to be separate from the rest of the island how may I ask do you define norn iorn is it by the gerrymandered protestant majority six counties of the north east of this island,or is it the Ulster province which in actual fact is nine counties and if so you may find that the majority would no longer be unionist therefore invalidating your independence theory,'
I've no particular predetermined area for my people to keep as their bit of Ireland - it was and is open to negotiation. The key issue is that we are a separate people, certainly as much as the Catalones, Scots or any others the OP mentioned. If they are entitled to independence, then so are we.
'norn Iorn is a bastard state created by bastards for bastards and maintained by bastards and therefore if peace and justice is ever to reach our shores then we need to re establish true democracy that imo is the will of all the people of this island not just those who think they are gods own .'
Thank you, Marty, that establishes the validity of my people's rejection of Irish Republicanism.
But let me pass by your abuse and ask you how 'the will of all the people of this island' works out for Scottish nationalists? Would Scottish independence only be valid if all the people of the island of Great Britain voted for it?
Wolfsbane so to follow your line of thinking the majority in places like Bradford and other cities in England would then be entitled to demand independence,a load of fucking nonsense , instead of being a people apart you should be working on the lines of uniting the people especially the working class,we do not need any more division,its abundantly clear to any right thinking person that division is nothing more than part of the divide and conquer strategy,united we could stand proud and put the past behind us divided well then same old same old,I know which I prefer .
ReplyDeleteWolfsbane why should a nation have to ask others for the right to govern itself ,is it not what they declared the first world war to be about "ie . the rights of small nations to be free" and while they bombed the fuck out of each other over that right the Brits bombed the fuck out of Dublin because small people had the temerity to demand such freedom.Scotland as an independent nation would surely leave unionists here at a loss wondering what to do with the millions of saltires in their possession,its maybe time as I,ve already stated and take a leaf out of the Scotish independence movement and start thinking how we could create an island at peace with itself instead of maintaining an artificial border that exists only in the heads of people like yourself .
ReplyDeleteWolsbane "I have no particular predetermined area for my people to keep as their bit of IRELAND it was and is open to negotiation " who may I ask would "your people" negotiate with for this bit of IRELAND, would it be the British it surely cant be they stole it in the first instance,
ReplyDeleteWolfesbane,
ReplyDeleteScotland is a universally recognized country it has history that spans millennia, this statelet was created less than a hundred years ago as a consequence of England decision to let go of part of it's military empire.
You talk a lot about compromise but it seems to me that your outlook is you haven't got a unionist majority then you will revolt no? I think in between all your lecturing about Irish republicanism and catholic hegemony you seem quite happy with loyalism and protestant hegemony is that not a contradiction?
wolfesbane, greetings from saordonia, am in agreement with bres on eire nua, wud like to know ur opinion of dail uladh and eire nua document in general.
ReplyDeleteProof that loyalists want to join a united Ireland.
ReplyDeleteAt Belfast City hospital here with my wife and just seen the mountain today. 'time 4 truth'. Will Jim McVeigh and Sinn Fein be objecting to this also one wonders? The best of this all is that it wasn't that long ago Sinn Fein's elected reps were on the mountain themselves, remember 'Cross of Shame'? Yeah that was them, short memories
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteThat mountain is becoming an inspiration. Fair play to all those who do the heavy lifting.
marty said:
ReplyDelete'Wolfsbane so to follow your line of thinking the majority in places like Bradford and other cities in England would then be entitled to demand independence,a load of fucking nonsense , instead of being a people apart you should be working on the lines of uniting the people especially the working class,we do not need any more division,its abundantly clear to any right thinking person that division is nothing more than part of the divide and conquer strategy,united we could stand proud and put the past behind us divided well then same old same old,I know which I prefer .'
Yes, if it came to a place and time where a substantial immigrant community were faced by a new direction in the British nation, then it might indeed be appropriate that they hive off the piece they occupy. Obviously Bradford would be impossible to operate as an independent state - but substantial areas with access to the sea would be another matter.
I'm all for unity - but a true unity of mind and people, not a dominance of one culture by another however. If unity of the people- especially the working class - is your key principle, why do you support the rupture of the Irish from the British people? We working people were all in it together, and the Labour movement in the U.K. achieved much more than it has in an independent Ireland. Why did and do many Irish socialists think that dividing from their British friends was good, but division between Irish and Ulster workers is bad?
Seems to me just plain nationalism at work, not socialism or any concern for the working class in either country.
Would you support a unity of the British Isles, say a British and Irish Republic? Or is Irish Statehood your prime concern?
marty said:
ReplyDelete'Wolfsbane why should a nation have to ask others for the right to govern itself ,is it not what they declared the first world war to be about "ie . the rights of small nations to be free" and while they bombed the fuck out of each other over that right the Brits bombed the fuck out of Dublin because small people had the temerity to demand such freedom.'
I agree that so much international policy is just hypocrisy. But if honest men are speaking about what principles should guide, then we can agree that each nation has the right to self-determination.
The Irish had it and the British should have accommodated that. In fact they did. The only problem was the fact that there were two nations in Ireland and one of them was not willing to submit to the other. They too had their right to self-determination.
'Scotland as an independent nation would surely leave unionists here at a loss wondering what to do with the millions of saltires in their possession,its maybe time as I,ve already stated and take a leaf out of the Scotish independence movement and start thinking how we could create an island at peace with itself instead of maintaining an artificial border that exists only in the heads of people like yourself .'
Scottish nats. are not thinking how they 'could create an island at peace with itself'. They are seeking to divide one island into at least two nations. So we could say the Scots nats. have taken a lesson from the Ulster Unionist people!
It is unity of people, not land, that is the real issue.
marty said:
ReplyDelete'Wolsbane "I have no particular predetermined area for my people to keep as their bit of IRELAND it was and is open to negotiation " who may I ask would "your people" negotiate with for this bit of IRELAND, would it be the British it surely cant be they stole it in the first instance,'
No point negotiating with the British State, since they are not the people who actually live here. No, our negotiations should be with the Irish people alone. It is our two peoples who have to reach an agreed outcome.
David said:
ReplyDelete'Wolfesbane,
Scotland is a universally recognized country it has history that spans millennia, this statelet was created less than a hundred years ago as a consequence of England decision to let go of part of it's military empire.'
It is not the land that is the issue, but the nations. Land doesn't have the right to self-determination.
'You talk a lot about compromise but it seems to me that your outlook is you haven't got a unionist majority then you will revolt no?'
Each nation has the right to self-determination. Majorites in a landmass do not give legitimacy to the majority as opposed to minority nations. That is the Scots nat. argument for separating from their majority neighbours in Britain. It was the Irish argument for separating from their majority neighbours in the British Isles. It was the Ulster Unionist argument for separating from their majority neighbours in Ireland.
'I think in between all your lecturing about Irish republicanism and catholic hegemony you seem quite happy with loyalism and protestant hegemony is that not a contradiction?'
I'm not happy with 'loyalism and protestant hegemony'. It is a better option for my people than than 'Irish republicanism and catholic hegemony', but far better to reach a solution both Irish and Ulster people can agree on.
grouch said:
ReplyDelete'wolfesbane, greetings from saordonia, am in agreement with bres on eire nua, wud like to know ur opinion of dail uladh and eire nua document in general.'
Thank, grouch.
Its such a long time from I encountered the proposal that I have no detailed memory. I just remember the bottom-line that occurred to me: federal states have no good record of respecting minorities if the majority at heart thinks they are an intrusion. From much I read from Republicans, I have reason to fear their regard for the Planters is notional, like a morality one would like to have but knows one cannot live up to.
Before Ulster Unionists risk the '98 unity experiment again, they need to know that they are not dealing with naked Catholic/Gaelic nationalism in the cloak of Liberty.
Max Headroom offered a clip of loyalists rioting against the police - as proof loyalsits want a UI.
ReplyDeleteThat would mean the internicene killings carried out by Republican factions are proof that they want to stay British. Seems to me in both cases that these folk were just looking to promote their own agenda - and not any amazing U-turn.
Wolfesbane ,
ReplyDeleteYou talk about Ulster and Ireland as if they are two separate entities, also when you talk about Ulster I take it Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan have no say in the future of your Ulster. Obviously these are fundamental differences that we will never agree on. The creation of the six county state is the most unjust on the planet maybe with the exemption of the creation of Israel . I can't think of any other countries were minority cultures dictate the will through force other than Ireland and Palestine no doubt there are others but i can't think of the top of my head.
In my opinion this site is better with you on it, I like to hear unionist perspectives, however when I hear unionist speak about " this is Britain" and the rest of it, it genuinely bamboozles me. You could show a four year old a map and he'd see England and Ireland are two different countries.
I am also all for unity between people. But you can't expect people to accept unjust partition of their country just because they were overpowered military wise. I know you have a lot of comments to answer but what do you see as a fair solution to our problems? Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Wolfsbane if you can trace your family history back to the Planters, then you should be prosecuted for receiving stolen goods.
ReplyDeleteIt is indeed our two peoples who have to reach an agreed outcome as Wolfsbane stated there but that's not what's happened. The constitutional arrangements, their parameters and the governmental structures (or 'strands' as they were referred to) had already been decided, carried as they were in the British government's unilaterally issued Framework Documents of 1995. None of that was up for negotiation during the all-party talks, the major issues had already been determined by the Brits and the talks were thus pre-determined. What we need as suggested is for all of the people of Ireland to decide their future together and to take account of the two traditions on the island. As you know I believe Eire Nua can provide the framework for real unity going forward. And yeah Nuala brilliant work yet again and fair dues to all concerned. It's incidents such as the cold-blooded murder of civilians such as those massacred in Ballymurphy that mean for me Britain simply has to go. They know they are totally in the wrong and thus their refusal to own up to their terrorist past
ReplyDeletewolfesbane, i am going to plant saordonians all over ireland.
ReplyDeleteWolfsbane said...
ReplyDeleteMax Headroom offered a clip of loyalists rioting against the police - as proof loyalsits want a UI.
That would mean the internicene killings carried out by Republican factions are proof that they want to stay British. Seems to me in both cases that these folk were just looking to promote their own agenda - and not any amazing U-turn.
Wolfsbane
My quote was to be taken as dry humour, it was the bizarreness of the clip that i was highlighting.
Loyalists attacking the British army and having them run for their lives shows the hypocrisy of protestant loyalism in Ireland. Everyone here including yourself knows that their loyalty only stretches as far as the end of their noses.
Hope to reply tomorrow, friends. I work nights and when I sleep poorly I don't get time on the keyboard.
ReplyDeleteSee you then.
David Higgins said:
ReplyDelete'You talk about Ulster and Ireland as if they are two separate entities,'
One is physically part of the other - but they are two distinct political units. Ireland is physically part of the British Isles, but distinct from it politically.
'also when you talk about Ulster I take it Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan have no say in the future of your Ulster.'
I used 'Ulster' in its political sense - N.I. The other three counties of ancient Ulster would have the same say in the future of present Ulster as the rest of Ireland - we are open to their concerns, but the final say for our Ulster must be the consensus of the people living in N.I.
'Obviously these are fundamental differences that we will never agree on.'
I think the majority of the people in Ireland and N.I. have shown they are open to new ideas - the Belfast Agreement was endorsed by them.
'The creation of the six county state is the most unjust on the planet maybe with the exemption of the creation of Israel .'
I see it the other way around - Partition saved us from a much worse alternative. Partition was not ideal, but we have opportunity to devise a better system; had we not gone with Partition, we would not be here to reflect on it.
As to Israel, you seem to oppose any change in nation states. How come it was OK for the Arabs to occupy the homeland of the Jews after the rise of Islam, but not OK for the Jews to return home later?
Most nations occupy land that was once someone else's. It should cause us to be sympathetic to former occupants when they seek to return, especially if they have no other homeland. That's often said in support of the Palestinian refugees - but it applies to the Jews in Israel too. Two nations, one land. How they can work out a good compromise, that's the question.
'I can't think of any other countries were minority cultures dictate the will through force other than Ireland and Palestine no doubt there are others but i can't think of the top of my head.'
The Irish were a minority in the U.K. before Partition. The Scots and Welsh are minorities now. The Basques and Catalans are minorities in Spain. The Tamils in Sri Lanka, etc. Are you opposed to independence for all of these?
'In my opinion this site is better with you on it, I like to hear unionist perspectives,'
Thank you. I appreciate that.
'however when I hear unionist speak about " this is Britain" and the rest of it, it genuinely bamboozles me. You could show a four year old a map and he'd see England and Ireland are two different countries.'
If it was a political map, yes. Otherwise, the child would see two large islands off Western Europe. He/she would not be able to tell if it was the same country or several countries.
'I am also all for unity between people. But you can't expect people to accept unjust partition of their country just because they were overpowered military wise.'
Correct. Nor can you expect Unionists to accept an unjust separation from their nation and incorporation into another nation. That's why an agreed future is essential.
David said:
ReplyDelete'I know you have a lot of comments to answer but what do you see as a fair solution to our problems? Thanks for taking the time to reply.'
I've no preferred option. There are several factors that must be accommodated, and various possible solutions no doubt. But here's my present thoughts:
1. I think most Unionists and Nationalists (I include Loyalists and Republicans) are open to agreed changes. If I'm wrong, then another generation will have to pay the price of intransigence.
2. I dare say that most of us in N.I. regard our neighbours of the opposite community as our closest fellow-countrymen, closer to us than our Irish or British neighbours in the Republic and Britain. I certainly feel my loyalty to my nationalist neighbour in Lurgan is greater than to my fellow-Brit in London. I hope their loyalty to me is greater than to their fellow-Irish in Limerick.
3. The above being so, N.I. is the focus of our national identity. We must build our sense of being a N.I. nation.
4. How that N.I. nation relates to the rest of Ireland and Britain will be the problem.
Seems to me the greatest constraint to how our relationships to Ireland and Britain can be worked is finance. Who is going to pay our pensions/healthcare/education, etc? I know the old slogans about eating grass if only we could have.. I don't think anyone I heard speak it would be prepared to live it.
Best guess for our agreed future - distancing ourselves from the Union and UI, but gently, building up trust and keeping our financial arrangements as far as possible.
DaithiD said:
ReplyDelete'Wolfsbane if you can trace your family history back to the Planters, then you should be prosecuted for receiving stolen goods.'
Yes, but that can be said for most nations. Possible exception for the Australian Aborigines.
Our forefathers either got so strong that they went out to conquer for greed, or they were being overrun by mightier nations and moved on to conquer weaker neighbours. The Gaels were not the original inhabitants of Ireland, for example.
I think it safe to say both our forefathers were demon-worshipping invaders!
sean bres said:
ReplyDelete'It is indeed our two peoples who have to reach an agreed outcome as Wolfsbane stated there but that's not what's happened. The constitutional arrangements, their parameters and the governmental structures (or 'strands' as they were referred to) had already been decided, carried as they were in the British government's unilaterally issued Framework Documents of 1995. None of that was up for negotiation during the all-party talks, the major issues had already been determined by the Brits and the talks were thus pre-determined.'
Yes, but I think that the predetermined aspect was only so as to give a possible start to the competing parties. Would they really have sat down to a blank sheet to paper - or even sat down together at all?
The Unionists certainly needed pressured into accepting any change. And the change needed to be reasonable, not some Republican pipe-dream, or it never would have flown. Compromise.
'What we need as suggested is for all of the people of Ireland to decide their future together and to take account of the two traditions on the island.'
OK. But it must not be thought of as preconditioned on an All-Ireland State, federal or otherwise, being the result.
'As you know I believe Eire Nua can provide the framework for real unity going forward.'
Worth discussing, but I don't see it as a winner. Let's hear the other ideas too.
grouch said:
ReplyDelete'wolfesbane, i am going to plant saordonians all over ireland.'
Plant in peace, my friend. I'm hoping to plant a sweet N.I. garden myself.
Max Headroom said:
ReplyDelete'My quote was to be taken as dry humour, it was the bizarreness of the clip that i was highlighting.
Loyalists attacking the British army and having them run for their lives shows the hypocrisy of protestant loyalism in Ireland. Everyone here including yourself knows that their loyalty only stretches as far as the end of their noses.'
No hypocrisy involved - just the misunderstanding common to British and Irish commentators. You seem to think we give unconditional loyalty to Britain/the Crown, etc. We never have, and I hope never will.
It may seem strange to folk from an Anglican or Catholic background, but the divine right of kings that demands such unconditional loyalty is not part of our Ulster psyche. My forefathers in 1649 executed a king for making that mistake. In 1688 a later generation overthrew another king. In 1912 they prepared to fight the British Army in defiance of the British Government.
So, yes, our loyalty is to our people, not to those who seek to harm us.
The rioters in the clip, however, were just being stupid.
nice one wolfesbane me aul flower.
ReplyDeleteWolfsbane said...
ReplyDeleteNo hypocrisy involved - just the misunderstanding common to British and Irish commentators. You seem to think we give unconditional loyalty to Britain/the Crown, etc. We never have, and I hope never will.
It may seem strange to folk from an Anglican or Catholic background, but the divine right of kings that demands such unconditional loyalty is not part of our Ulster psyche. My forefathers in 1649 executed a king for making that mistake. In 1688 a later generation overthrew another king. In 1912 they prepared to fight the British Army in defiance of the British Government.
So, yes, our loyalty is to our people, not to those who seek to harm us.
The rioters in the clip, however, were just being stupid.
Are you saying loyalists couldn't really care less who or what sits on the British throne because when the chips are down, so called loyalists will go to war on them if they feel the need?
If this is the case which has happened in the past as you pointed out then your reply does not discredit and only conforms what i said previously in that they are only loyal when it suits them, IE: to the ends of their noses.
How can anyone claim to be loyalist or loyal to anything if they are not 100% behind whatever they claim to be loyal to?
That's blatant hypocrisy and there's no question of it.
Or are you saying the meaning of loyalistism really means loyal to yourselves and no one else? and that it's their way or no way? if this is the case then that signifies an undemocratic ideology in loyalist thinking which is bordering on fascistism.
Tell me this, when judgement day finally comes when nationalists in the 6 counties clearly have the pendulum swung in their direction and show a willingness to enter a united Ireland and the 26 counties want the same, and the Brits tell your people there's nothing they can do anymore to keep any part of Ireland British for any longer, tell me what is the bulk of your people going to do? will they finally embrace the nation of Ireland and become equals but with obvious differences in cultures & heritage etc, or will they rebel against Ireland once more or will they emigrate?
Max Headroom said:
ReplyDelete'Are you saying loyalists couldn't really care less who or what sits on the British throne because when the chips are down, so called loyalists will go to war on them if they feel the need?'
I'm saying our loyalty is primarily to our people - we will not allow others to dispose of our nation just as they please. I would expect all nations to think like that.
'If this is the case which has happened in the past as you pointed out then your reply does not discredit and only conforms what i said previously in that they are only loyal when it suits them, IE: to the ends of their noses.'
To our needs as a people, yes. You seem to suggest one should submit their people to the whims of others. Really?
'How can anyone claim to be loyalist or loyal to anything if they are not 100% behind whatever they claim to be loyal to?
That's blatant hypocrisy and there's no question of it.'
We never made the claim to unconditional loyalty. You are the one saying loyalty must be unconditional or non-existent. That's a strange definition. Would you say a man isn't loyal to his wife if he would divorce her when she sleeps around with other men?
'Or are you saying the meaning of loyalistism really means loyal to yourselves and no one else?'
No, conditional loyalty means one can be loyal to others as long as they fulfil their obligations of loyalty to us.
'and that it's their way or no way? if this is the case then that signifies an undemocratic ideology in loyalist thinking which is bordering on fascistism.'
We don't say it all must be our way. Relationships require compromises, taking the rough with the smooth, give and take. But there are boundaries.
'Tell me this, when judgement day finally comes when nationalists in the 6 counties clearly have the pendulum swung in their direction and show a willingness to enter a united Ireland and the 26 counties want the same, and the Brits tell your people there's nothing they can do anymore to keep any part of Ireland British for any longer, tell me what is the bulk of your people going to do? will they finally embrace the nation of Ireland and become equals but with obvious differences in cultures & heritage etc, or will they rebel against Ireland once more or will they emigrate?'
Morally, we would have the right to insist on our independence as a nation, just as we did in pre-Partition Ireland. That's why I have always thought Molyneaux and Paisley were talking nonsense when they spoke of the majority in N.I. deciding our future. Majorities do not make nations. Each people has the right to self-determination, be they a majority or minority.
But practically, and compassionately, we would have to consider if insisting on our national rights would be proper. Would it be worth fighting a civil war to avoid a UI that was pluralist and had all the structures needed to ensure our civil and religious liberty and respect for our ethnic identity? I don't think so. In that event we should either give it a go and see if it worked, or immigrate.