Tram Talk

A brouhaha has stirred this week after YouTube featured a video clip showing a London tram passenger expressing racial sentiment by the bagful. With infant in lap she sat there and laid it on thick to people of black skin and Poles. It was a racist rant in which those who spoke differently or appeared as something other than white were urged to go back to their ‘own’ countries and leave ‘my Britain’ alone.

To get some sense of perspective, the British National Party is able to have its members returned to the European parliament and to have councillors elected in Britain while soccer stars, role models for numerous young in British society, are increasingly being accused of racist behaviour on the pitch. Yet an incident as minor as somebody with bigoted views, seemingly full of the booze or something else, giving off on a tram has a large swathe of the British public transfixed.  It provoked nothing short of outrage.

There were calls for the arrest of the woman, that she should face deportation (to where exactly?),  that her child should even be taken from her.  As a consequence British police arrested a 34 year old woman, Emma West, for a ‘racially aggravated’ public order offence. Although facing at most a prison sentence of six months, West has been remanded in custody in what seems an overzealous display of judicial authority. 

The incident has prompted serious discussion as well as ranting in the British national press and on the internet.  Padraig Reidy of Index On Censorship has approached the matter from the angle of the surveillance society he thinks Britain is well on the way to becoming. He drew attention to how power anonymously and invisibly, fragmented and dispersed, is turning Britain into a surveillance society where neighbour spies on neighbour without having to await official endorsement or coordination.  He compared the culture to the Stasi regime in the former East Germany: ‘are we willingly becoming a citizen Stasi, happy to record and report each other’s behaviour?’

Some have dismissed this as hyperbole. Yet Reidy is merely flagging up through the prism of a response to a specific incident the wider threat to civil liberties that is growing as a result of citizens vying to turn each other in on the basis of what they say or think. Consider Kevin Rooney’s views expressed on spiked about soccer rivalries in Glasgow which often express themselves in internet spats and ribald song singing and which has also seen one seventeen year old hauled off to prison for ‘religiously aggravated’ offences.

In Scotland, sadly, what people say and write is now sufficient criteria for imprisoning them, as the centuries-old distinction between words and action is abolished ... The criminalisation and demonisation of Old Firm football fans by the massed ranks of the Scottish government, police and media is a serious problem. Far from reducing ‘sectarian conflict’ in Scottish football, the new censorious laws and the accompanying police campaign have led to a dramatic increase in tensions, with fans now encouraged to spy on each other, to take offence at every comment, and to report rival fans to the police. In a very vicious cycle, the more rival fans are coaxed and cajoled into reporting offensive incidents, then the more arrests there are, and the more the authorities can cite such increases in arrests as a justification for tough new laws and sanctions.

If this is the way British society wants to go someone should take the time to explain what difference exists between a transparent society and a surveillance society. The distinction seems not to have been spelt out. Where does transparency end and surveillance begin? What seems very transparent is that citizens are cheering rather than mourning the slow death of civil liberties.

There is a view that the recording of the event on the tram was an example of citizen journalism. Perhaps, but if it is journalism it is hardly of the responsible type. The ‘journalist’ concerned plastered the results of their work on YouTube with absolutely no regard for the infant whose features are as clear as the woman in whose lap he was seated. If the police come demanding the contents of the ‘journalists’ phone so that it may be used in evidence against the accused woman, will the ‘journalist’ submit to state authority and allow the material on her phone to become evidence as distinct from public information? Will the journalist be prepared to face prison rather than hand the recording over? Unless they are prepared to take these personal losses in defence of journalism the claim that this is citizen journalism should be taken no more seriously than a claim that recording a tune for web upload makes the person responsible a music producer.

Sunny Hundal in the Guardian said that while he abhorred having to defend such a person he nevertheless felt that using the law to resolve what was clearly unacceptable behaviour was not the right way to go. ‘And let's be honest, the woman was just sitting there with a child on her lap. She offended people but posed no threat and didn't harm anyone.’ It was a rant about immigration. It is probably the sort of thing that takes place in pubs throughout Britain every weekend if not during the week as well. Sure, the views expressed were odious. It is even more odious that she should be jailed for them.

67 comments:

  1. Wouldnt Mary Shitehouse love the way we are heading ...farted in a public place m,lord and noisely to...justice Backhander "tut tut such disgusting behaviour in a civilised society..4 years hard labour.....they can pass all the draconian laws they like,it wont change attitudes,and when people find themselves with little or no hope for the future then like the nazi,s in the 30p,s the bnp will play the them and us card and reap the benefits of a divided society.I hear it a couple of times a week now and its true,that is ,the young people of this country are leaving in their droves AGAIN ,no work no hope yet foreign nationals are still flooding this place, can someone tell me what sense that makes...

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  2. Mackers,
    She was well out of order. I can never get my head around that type of mentality. I think the 'lock her up' calls only serves to fuel her stance. She should have been chucked off the bus, train whatever she was on.
    'Stay out of our Britain' pity they had not stayed out of everyone elses country.
    Disgraceful behaviour, but that mentality is as alive and well here as it is in other blatantly racist societies.
    I think I read a few years ago that Derry was actually the racist capital of Europe.
    How easily they forget, NO DOGS, NO BLACKS, NO IRISH.

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  3. AM-

    Once in a while i would hear a racist comment- look at them foreigners selling the big issue etc
    [ to be honest its been years since i last bought a copy off an Irish person- is that beneath our homeless now to sell the big issue or are they not allowed to anymore]
    some seem to think they can say anything to people from abroad, even to ones who have been here for years- like it is foreigners who are to blame for the financial crisis and not the billion pound wars around the world or the fat cat bankers and bent politicians and those media who help the guilty to get away with it- to hate what can be seen on our streets is easy- to hate those who are responsible-
    well that seems more difficult for some reason-

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  4. That woman should be charged with being “drunk or mental in charge in charge of a kid”!. As the article said, you only have to look at so-called “role models”, footballers, models and “celebrities” to see where people get this garbage from (not forgetting the “mainstream media” as well. to call them “newspapers” is stretching it). Marty, I noticed on the “Apaloosa” thread you referred to “Paki” women and inferring in this one that foreign nationals are flooding the place, I hope you’re not leaning towards the BNP.

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  5. Marty, hope you’re being satirical.

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  6. Appalling she had the little one in her lap - using a child like a prop against revenge attack...
    Personally i love it she got arrested for it Brill I say. NB if a non white had slapped her around or threatened to they would do time and she would play the victim. Hope her child is removed so as to spare another innocent mind being poisoned with hate and madness.
    Wish she had done it in Brixton actual. Very sad seeing that young non white guy get wound up from the bile spilling out her mouth. She is a BNP poster girl. Now she will hang on their white supremacy, scientific racism cross and be hailed a heroine. The only humor in the hideous clip was her cries of "my Britain is fuck all now..."
    Yeah u ignorant wee slapper u got that right. Your Britain - your toxic empire of scientific racism which destroyed culture after culture, land after land. Murdered raped slaughtered imprisoned etc ad infinitum. Now all the birds have come home to roost...
    Ireland like Fionnuala highlighted has its quota of pointyheads lost in the delusions of white supremacy. Infact a few years back the klan boys did a major recruiting number on Ireland and over here too. Always idiots who will buy the BS always.

    Ireland would do well to remember that Irish are abroad in huge numbers and taking jobs in other nations. How would they like it to be called a taig, bogtrotter, 'you blowin fuck off' etc Because of their white skin they are spared that alot... Maybe the tide will turn though... These r desperate times.
    It is old news that you can be prosecuted for what u write on the net speak in public and so forth. In fact what we say here and what you write is probably monitored. Thought police are in the house & in realville Censoring watching clocking up who u hang out with where u travel etc Tis spooky... It is always time to put on the tinfoil hat ahaha PS Anthony she should be deported to Ireland and she can cry "my Britain is fuck all now" to the OO's day in day out Like inverse therapy for em.

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  7. I was in a cafe in Dublin once a few years ago and two Gaeilgeoirs were nattering away beside us when a drunk girl with a thick Dub accent interrupts them, telling them to go back to their own f****** country.... she got pretty irate when we all fell about laughing at her.. how easily the Irish do forget.

    This woman's behaviour was appalling - not least because she'd a wee child on her knee. We can excuse it with ignorance, lack of education, marginalisation, whatever - but it's disgusting. I've serious concerns though that it is being brandished all over the place - this is the fourth time I've seen it on an internet forum/blog - daresay its already gone global. Her face, and that of her child is so clear and I think she'll be in real danger anywhere she goes. of course she should be challenged, but I dont think her rant warrants that. She's more to be pitied I suppose.

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  8. When I look at this incident and compare it against the BBC's Jeremy Clarkson calling for striking workers to be executed in front of their families, I wonder how out of proportion we sometimes get things.

    Emma West is a racist clown but in my view much less dangerous than Clarkson

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  9. We need to ask how these prejudice,s develop and why,there is no doubt that England and its society has changed beyond all recognition since the mass influx of Caribbean workers in the late 40,s early 50,s,places like Bradford have become predominantly Asian,whether this is a good or bad thing isnt up to me to decide,but what I have found out and if we are being honest here,we or most of us know people who have moved to England for one reason or another and quite a few have adopted the attitude about "packi,s"and other "foreigners,Powell,s Rivers of Blood speech could yet come to pass there I think,because its not politically correct to sound off re other cultures,forcing people to bottle their opinions may be a retrograde step,slapping ,throw her in gaol,chuck her of the bus, why !! she was probably saying what a lot of people on the bus thought, and indeed where does this end with the setting up of "the thought police" ffs folks we have it in our own For What Died The Sons Of Róisin.
    "will German,French or Dutch inscribe the epitaph of Emmet
    When we have sold enough of Ireland to be but strangers in it
    For what died The Sons OF Róisin
    For what suffer our patriots today
    they have a language problem so they say.
    How to right NO Trespass must grieve their hearts full sore.
    We got rid of one strange language.
    Now we are faced with many many more."

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  10. Until 1990, the number of people who immigrated to the UK was balnced by a similar number leaving.If this incident is the worse we can expect in terms of racism, it would be a miracle.Thanks to new Labour, the UK now has net immigration of 250,ooo per annum.Little wonder the job market is a mess.The latter sentence applies to ireland as well.

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  11. I believe Kelly wasn't referring to the ordinary workers who come to Ireland to make a living or seek asylum. I believe he was referring to those who come & buy off our culture, heritage & identity with the dollar & pound - rid Ireland of all that's Irish so that all that's left is greed.

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  12. Marty,
    I don't know where the 'son's of Roisin' poem nor the 'thought police' theory fits here, all sounds a bit like fascist white supremacy to me.
    What my rights on a train? If what you are saying is correct, then I would have had to sit there and listen to her, just because she might be expressing views that other people are thinking.
    No, I don't think that is remotely acceptable. Zero tolerance is the only way forward on this, if someone is racist it should be viewed as their problem not something that should be openly inflicted on the rest of us.

    Mackers,
    Clarkson is an attention seeker except when the attention is about his affairs with women who clearly must be desperate.
    I think he has put himself in the shit with this but then what you expect from an absolute bore.

    Michaelhenry,
    People love a scapegoat. 'Oh they are over here begging' or they are over here draining our economy' or taking our jobs' it just goes on and on and it is absolute crap.
    Research which Ken Livingstone quote from very recently showed if anything these so called, 'foreign nationals' when employed actually boost the economy.
    Statistics show that these people are more likely to be employed in the low paid and low grade jobs that others would not touch.
    A few years ago my son was involved in re-cycling promotion.
    One day he went to the factory where the re-cycling actually took place. He told me later that, the cold, noise and smell was something else and it was all so called foreign nationals doing the work.
    My son said to one of the workers, 'how the hell do you stick this?' and he replied, 'I need to feed my family'.
    I think all shades and walks can identify with that one.

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  13. As much as racism disgusts me, I do believe people have the right to be racists. Indeed, I do not think it should be a crime to hold and express opinions that the majority of us find odious. To take an extreme example, I do not believe a person should be imprisoned for having paedophilic thoughts or for believing that there should be no age of consent. However, if that person were to act on his beliefs and hurt a child either directly or indirectly through buying child pornography, then he ought to be imprisoned for a long time. Similarly, Emma West ought not to have been arrested for merely expressing an opinion, however odious we feel it to be.

    I don't believe all cultures are equally good. For instance, I would not like to live in the hyper-patriotic, conservative Christian backwaters of the US, where the poor are demonised and where teachers have to fight to keep creationism out of classrooms. Yet devout Muslim cultures are even worse: can any one of us honestly say we'd like to live in Iran or Saudi Arabia? In some ways, it is easy to see why Kevin Myers worries about the immigration of Muslims into Western Europe. He contends that Western-style liberal democracy is at risk if Muslims become a majority in European countries. However, his argument rests on the assumption that most European Muslims are extremist and want to institute Sharia law in the countries in which they live. I have not seen much evidence of this at all. Indeed, I think that marginalising Muslims and constantly raising concerns about their agendas is more likely to alienate them than help them integrate. As Ha-Joon Chang says, if you expect the worst from people, then that is exactly what you'll get.

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  14. Nuala,

    I agree with Alfie on this one. I don’t think you have to sit and listen to her. People did challenge her, in particular one white English woman who made West look silly. Views get challenged all the time. While her views are not acceptable to me, the expression of them is. I am very uneasy about the State being allowed to coerce people into having or not having views.

    Don’t know much about Clarkson but this was pure advocacy of extreme violence and harm against people.

    For anybody apprehensive about foreign nationals, try working with the Romanians. While it is wrong to generalise, my experience of Romanians has been very positive. I made some good friends through working with them and remain in touch with them all the time. I am grateful to have been befriended by them. It seems so natural. Like us all they come in all shapes and sizes, with moods and temperaments to suit. As with many other foreign nationals they don’t get the clean end of the stick.

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  15. Alfie,
    How does integration work in a racist society?
    In your second paragaph you cite, that integration in preferrable to alienation, yet in the first paragraph you suggest it is ok to be racist as long as you keep it under wraps.
    Racism is the cutting edge of alienation so where or how are they meant to co-exist?

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  16. How dare you insinuate that I may be racist Nuala,ask the youngest members of my klan,Klu and Klux and I,m sure they,l be horrified at your outrageous slur,the lass on the tram imo is guilty of bad manners nothing else, I for one believe she has the right to think what she wants and its here I agree with Alfie ,what interests me is how or the thinking behind her opinion no matter how warped that may be,the girl like the rest of us wasnt born a racist,so how did she and what seems to be growing numbers arrive at this thinking,what forces are at work here and to what purpose?the job your son worked that may have been better in conditions ,hours and rates had the employer not been able to employ a willing immigrant workforce,some argue that these people are the ace card to undermine trade unions.

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  17. Nuala,

    There is a difference between allowing people to express racist beliefs and actually approving of racism or encouraging it. I believe that racism is wrong and that the state should fight racism through education and open debate. But banning fascist opinions is fascist in itself. I mean, I believe adultery is wrong as well, but that does not mean I think we ought to imprison errant husbands and wives. In a free society, people ought to have the right to behave badly so long as they do not directly harm others. The same goes for beliefs. Permitting racist opinions does not mean society will then become racist. I believe suppression gives racism power; exposing it and debating it allows for minds to be changed. Not giving people the right to make up their own minds and trusting them to make the right decisions comes straight out of the Eoghan Harris Sticky school of politics.

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  18. Marty,
    I never knew what made my mother a racist, I just knew she was. My mother had no viable or intellectual reason to think how she thought, most of what she said and believed was based on myth and conjecture and scaremongering.
    No one has a RIGHT TO BE RACIST, no one. It is hardly up there with the right to running water and a hot meal.

    Mackers,
    I witnessed an unprovoked racist rant and it was disjusting.
    True to form it was two lay abouts rounding on a guy coming home from work. People my granny would describe as 'the bottom of the pile trying to find someone to look down on.'
    If the state wants to police that type of behaviour I would find it hard to object.

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  19. Marty,

    "The lass on the tram imo is guilty of bad manners nothing else, I for one believe she has the right to think what she wants."

    Of course she has the right to her opinion, but at the same time, she is an ignorant bigot and her views ought to publicly challenged. I only wish I had the courage to take strangers to task on buses or in pubs when they start ranting about blacks and Asians. I tend to avoid confrontation and so I have often stayed silent while, say, a taxi driver made racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. That was wrong of me and I hope to be stronger in the future because it is by standing up and speaking out against prejudice that bigotry is defeated - not by censorship nor, indeed, by silence.

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  20. SMH,

    If we were to remove all children from racist parents, there would be an awful lot of children in child care. As a move to police political views it seems retrogressive.

    Belfast Bookworm,

    I don’t pity her but I take your point. I pity the child who will grow up under the shadow of that. Your reference to 'Kelly' escaped me. Did I miss something?

    Marty,

    The PC brigade you refer to will just have to be bypassed when it comes to discussion of these issues. I think it displays the same aggressive tendencies as fascism. I have never learned anything from PC World. You are right that it causes material to be bottled up which might end up finding expression in other forms.

    The PC mob was furious over the Danish cartoons controversy a few years back and the best approach was simply to ignore them. How the Left abandoned its own sense of history and political project on that issue dismayed me.

    Any intellectual discussion is only wide enough if it permits those views we are diametrically opposed to. It lightens my mind that we can host such a discussion here, where people can disagree, even strongly. We manage without being abusive.

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  21. Anthony I quoted from Luke Kelly,s For what died the sons of Róisin,earlier and Belfast bookworm was responding to it a cara ..

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  22. I have watched this video a few times and even after reading this post I am still not sure how most people are expected to react when confronted with someone expressing their views , all the comments are fair and really try to deal with people who seem to have an opinion and expect all members of the public to listen whether we want to or not , some, not all are of the opinion that we should be able to express our views in public even to an audience that doesn’t seem interested , Should we have to pay to listen I don’t think so , if we get on a train taxi bus tram or whatever type of transport we need to get from A-B then I personally believe that no one has the right to scream in my ear whatever it is that irks them .
    For the rest, who believe that people that want to express their views on public or private transport that has to be paid for should be put off at the next available stop I would say yes, when we pay to get onboard public or private transport we have the right to believe that when we pay for the service we should not have to endure some ones else take on life.

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  23. "'Stay out of our Britain'- incidentally, I was in London last weekend and in full two days I haven't met ANYWHERE even a single ENGLISH/SCOTTISH/WELSH/IRISH person working. Every single working person I came across, was a migrant worker: from the airport to the tube and the hotel, from catering to shops and street works and construction works. I mean it. I guess, the English are too busy ranting on buses/trains/ BBC (Jeremy Clarkson). Do you really think that we want to be here, creating wealth for you? Do you think we would have been here at all, if the West hasn't contibuted hugely to destroying our countries and our ways of life? I do hope that our children and grandchildren will avenge what you did and are doing to us.

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  24. I missed all this due to illness, but it makes me mad as hell, to remand someone in custody for a rant on a tube, it is an outrage, she got as good as she gave.

    Whether commentators like it or not her bitterness reflect those of millions of ordinary British people (and Irish people) who were not asked whether they wanted to share their countries with people whom they do not understand, whose history they do not share and who they instinctively believe will undercut wage rates, etc.

    There was a conscious decision by NL Government to allow a flood of new immigrants into the UK as they wished to drive wages down for their business pals. Go into the city of London at night and cleaners are earning less now than was paid a decade ago.

    Never forget despite the boom years average wages in the UK have been held down for over a decade and more, now they are slipping lower.

    It is hardly surprising some folk think like this young woman, what is miraculous, due to the common decency of most working class people, we have not seen race riots nor a back lash against the Poles etc, even this woman did not base here hatred of newcomers on race, something which seems to have been overlooked.

    Indeed the most prejudiced woman on the tram may well have been the nigerian who said British workers will not work; or some such drivel. Funny how the MSM has not criticised this woman for that.

    By the way if the tram had a conductor, they could have intervened early and asked the woman to leave. But hell we do not need conductors on our busses today nor guards on our trains. Now do we?

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  25. Wouldnt have made any difference if that tram had a conductor Mick ,he, she probably wouldnt have understood English!!!!!

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  26. P.S. Mick sorry to hear your were unwell,hope all is behind you now,and you,ve got the wind to your back a cara,I was feeling Happy the other day but Snow white was ripping it.

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  27. This is the sort of thing those in the hierarchy of the catholic church would love .ie, to suppress any criticism of their priests and their wayward libido,s,and have those who speak out remanded till hell freezes over.

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  28. Alfie,

    The way your phrased your argument and how Nuala responded is not how I have tended to think the matter out. The right to be a racist or no right to be a racist – I tended to think in terms of people having the right to hold a racist view and I suppose by extension that would mean the right to be a racist.

    There is no situation that I would argue that people should have their thoughts declared illegal. It conjures up an Orwellian nightmare. So that leaves people with a right to hold their views. If there is no right to be a racist then it might well follow that there is no right to hold racist views as they make a person a racist presumably.

    Elsewhere, but on the same theme, I very much dislike laws which make holcaust denial a criminal offence. If a person wants to say the Jews were not gassed let it be said. It is a completely idiotic statement, easily falsifiable. Supressing it is not the right action to deal with it.

    I think Emma West’s arrest and remand to prison is indefensible and is a serious assault on civil liberties. Boyne Rover has a point when he says she could have been put off at the next stop for causing a disturbance; a public transport matter but nothing more.

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  29. Yes Anthony, I was referring to Luke Kellys's poem. Marty, I think, reads it like Kelly was referring to Emigrants who come to settle here... I read it the way Kelly meant it.

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  30. Belfast Bookworm I understand Lukes writing well enough a cara ,have had the privilige of meeting the man,a light went out with his departing,and yes take a look at the Private property signs in Leitrim and the empty holiday homes owned by foreign nationals,and local kids cant get land to build for want or love,its happening all over these isles,

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  31. @ Belfast Bookworm Loved the story. I had an experience in dublin 2009 i ain't forgot in. In a Drs surgery/dublin I observed white Irish patients looking with blatant distaste at a black woman who sat alone with empty chairs next to her. Their faces said it all. I sat next to her and said "How can you bear this - i see clearly what is going on..." She laughed and said "I am used to to it... - grateful to have this country to live in". Shame/anger flooded me for what she endures in good old patriotic totally f..ked up Ireland. The f..kups are our own people. If I had been well enough I would have slapped each and every white Irish face in the room but did not have the energy so ranted angrily at them & tottered away for my appointment.

    RE:SMH,'If we were to remove all children from racist parents, there would be an awful lot of children in child care. As a move to police political views it seems retrogressive.'
    Nope it is a start towards accountability for protecting minors. I think what you fail to see is that Emma woman on the tram has enough hate/delusions in her to incite a 'race riot'. Moreover her very words are violent and wound non whites as sharply as a knife being stuck in u. Working social welfare work area - one of the most gutwrenching facets is seeing self hate imploded inside young non white. Where did the message come from 'you are lower on the humanity scale' come from? From toxic delusional morons like Emma West of which there are many.
    Marty For what died the sons of Róisin? Surely not a white is superior & right society. Life, society and the world has moved on. The words u quote are not relevant now in a fragmented world where every person can be considered a refugee or immigrant imo. Turf marking out days need to end. Irelands history has the scent of white supremacy moments on it - such irony really.

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  32. Marty, I wish I had had the privilege of meeting Luke Kelly - I love that his socialist, anti-imperialist and anti-elitist beliefs spoke to so many through his poetry & songs. So my point still stands.

    Saint Mary Hedgehog - I feel like you when I see it - shame, Coupled with disgust. And it burns more when it stems from people who've been at the wrong end of racism, sectarianism & discrimination themselves, people who really should know better; Irish, catholics, women etc. It never ceases to amaze me.

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  33. Agree with Fionnuala on this one. Sometimes racist thoughts are best left unsaid. The brits have been in 49 countries to date and 'counting'. Without invitation. The same racist on the tram probably glorifies that empire whilst abusing those who were invited to britain from it for cheap labour purposes.

    I'm fed up with OTT PC crap, but theres a time and place for everything. A few guys sharing a joke is one thing but racist offensiveness is not good, belittles the person doing it more than the recipient in my mind.

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  34. A Dub said to me a few weeks ago that the latest game in the city is ..spot the Irishman

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  35. "Nope it is a start towards accountability for protecting minors."

    Before we stamp this broken shell of a woman into the ground and rejoice at her imprisonment, it may be better to pause, and ask where racism springs from. Perhaps we might look at our own societies and question those who rule over them.

    Ireland will have to speak for itself, but lets look at the UK and its institutions. Whilst we have millions of black Britons these days, only one serves in the Cabinet and the smaller coalition partner has not a single black MP. A fine example this sets!

    If you look at the British armed forces there is not a single black senior officer (3 and 4 star generals etc)
    I could go on and point out countless examples right down the ruling elites food chain, but do I really need to?

    The UK instituons are racist and class prejudiced to the core, take a look at the education department tops and look for the black faces.

    I winched when I read SMH suggestion we should place in care the children of racist parents, if that were the case we would have had to start with the British queen, whose husband regarded the chinese as slitty eyes and whose grandson thinks it is a great wheeze to dress up in an SS uniform.

    Get real Mary, a great many of the officials who would decide on which child is taken into care are racist themselves. The only differences between them and the Tram ranter is they have learnt to navigate their way through legislation like the race relations act. I do not have the space to mention the British empire in detail, it is enough to say its legacy continues to poison every UK school child's mind. (Never forget in Cameron's Britain, it is once again being portrayed as a positive period)

    Whilst I applaud your behaviour at your doctors, I wonder if you act as civilised when to come into contact with people who have mental health illnesses or problems with drug or alcohol.

    Instead of sitting in judgement, perhaps we would all do better to ask why? Historically, racist filth which pollutes a society has almost always been generated top down.

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  36. Marty, is Leitrim not one of the five most under populated counties in the 26? I thought it's council (before the recent economic crisis of course) gave incentives for irish people to come & live/work/set up business in the county in an effort to kick start the economy there. I thought the incentives included land tax reductions, grants for business start ups, grants to modernise domestic properties.

    I thought Leitrim council were really struggling to attract Irish people to that part of the world, prior to the collapse. I've obviously got that all wrong - Irish people must have wanted to go there - they just couldn't get in what with all those foreigners.

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  37. You got it right bookworm its a standard joke around north Leitrim and lough Melvin in praticular the number of holiday homes belonging to foreigners is in the high precentages compared to the local population,but I reckon you already know that since your well informed on the efforts of Leitrim co council to repopulate this lovely county.

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  38. Good original take on the awful ranting woman.
    Don't think it compares to state-sponsored or enforced surveillance and spying like the Stasi though. You can't compare the spontaneous reporting of something perceived to be criminal as Stasi-like - or if you do, you may as well make the 999 service not apply to the cops at all - just fire and ambulance.

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  39. Marty, I did know that. They come for the fishing apparently. A lot of Germans by all accounts.

    A friend of mine tried to get one of those grants but was told no, that because they weren't Irish they weren't part of the incentive scheme. My friends Belfast born & bred.

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  40. Alfie.

    ‘banning fascist opinions is fascist in itself.’

    There is much to be said for that. I have thought it fascistic to behave in such a manner. The vanguardist Left have struck me as fascistic in the way it seeks to ban opinion and stifle views it does not like. It always bemuses me how Trotskyists can be so Stalinist.

    If we were to challenge everybody who expressed a racist view we would be at it all the time. I used to challenge it when friends did it and then found they would only do it just to get a response. They weren’t really being racist. More often than not when it is not friends who make the comment (taxi drivers are notorious for it) I pass some comment, usually sarcastic, but it can be an overwhelming task. I found so much of it down here in a way that I didn’t in the North. And then what do we do about jokes? I love jokes, any type of joke if it is structured well and produces a twist at the end. I have heard racists jokes, sexist jokes, religious jokes, jokes about poke-fun-at-republican jokes – even Sammy Wilson’s jokes about the blanket protest don’t annoy me. I am loathe to see humour policed.

    Nuala,

    ‘If the state wants to police that type of behaviour I would find it hard to object.’

    Policing behaviour is one thing but policing opinion is in my view not something we should want the state to do. Once they define something as fascist and ban it they will soon define something else as fascist and ban it too. We see examples of that now in how they are arresting republicans for online comments.

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  41. Anthony I understand your point - eveybodys entitled to an opinion and no, opinions and thoughts shouldn't be policed. But your woman on the tram was abusing other people. She has the right to her opinion certainly but other people have the right not to be abused, least of all because if the colour of their skin.

    If that had been a man on a tram hurling abuse at a terrified woman or a person with a disability I'm quite sure there'd be a different slant to this debate. I doubt very much anyone would argue that the man was entitled to an opinion then.

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  42. Anthony,

    Though I don't know any Trotskyists personally, I do believe the far left in general got the issue of the Mohammed cartoons seriously wrong. I also believe they were wrong about the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo. People like Edward Herman and to a lesser extent, John Pilger misled people about the extent of Serbian killings in order to delegitimise NATO's interventions in that region. What is more, Noam Chomsky let himself down by failing to condemn Herman's take on Srebrenica and also by endorsing Herman's latest book which, amongst other things, tries to get the Hutu-led government off the hook for the Rwandan genocide in 1994.

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  43. Belfast Bookworm,

    If someone - male or female - was behaving in a physically agressive or threatening manner towards other people on that tram, then he/she could have been arrested for a public order offence. Emma West was insulting, but she was not physically agressive. She remained seated at all times. If she was getting in people's faces and invading their personal spaces, then she ought to have been arrested. That said, I don't see any reason why a conductor - if present - could not have demanded that she get off at the next stop, just as a restaurant manager would have been entitled to make her leave his restaurant if she had been creating a similar disturbance there.

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  44. I have posted earlier what should have happened to the poor woman who only wanted to voice her opinion.
    I don’t know what all the hullabaloo is about what insults did she actually hurl.
    Lets call a spade a spade did she actually say anything that was racist all her words were slurred she sounded like she had her head in a barrel. Basically it was all jibber jabber totally incoherent to me all I could complain about was the high pitched scream which she passed around.
    Do we maybe take this PC thingy too much to heart people feel at times that they must explain themselves to the general public just to get something of their chests. Imagine for a moment she started shouting Liverpool for the League what then might have happened she would have had the child taken from her and she would not get the child back until Liverpool won the League in other words she would never have seen her child again, how fare is that
    Now that it’s Saturday night I bet most of us have the same thoughts “what the fuck was that woman in the video on it sure gives you a kick” and all thoughts of racism will go out the window

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  45. Paisley and his cronies abused all sorts of people for years ,yet no action was taken,and now Paisley is feted like a man of respect,he ranted and raved and his evil twisted words may have been the fuse that ignited 30 plus years of trouble here, countless injured ,and thousands of deaths.its amazing that a wee girl half pissed or of her head on something can arouse such fury and calls for retribution yet arch bigots get promoted to the house of lords...maybe that girl should get herself a dog collar...

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  46. The term racism is a clever contradiction as it actually agrees that based on the colour of skin and country of origin that the one human race is not one race but many. Perhaps racism was more apt when the Neanderthals walked the earth with our Ancestors.

    The woman on the train is xenophobic and a nuisance and unfortunately a commoner unlike when the bold wee Prince Harry displayed his Lily-white English views all he got was an ear bashing from his mother. Perhaps the royal family like parliament should become a bit more colourful and culturally diverse.

    You have to love the media and the Government they certainly know how to divide the ordinary people one minor outburst from a woman becomes a worldwide topic.
    I will offer an apology in advance but I could not stop laughing at the video, went on to view other videos for and against, and enjoyed it.

    I laughed and thought to myself that is it you English bastards get wired into each other does that make me a bigot? Yes. I would be a hypocrite if I said I have never told a British soldier where to go on the fact that he was a foreigner in my country.

    I yearned for the good old days when a British army patrol would force you against a wall and exchange a few polite pleasantries at the point of an SLR. Then that was not bigotry as those poor heavily armed soldiers where just defending the British Empire.

    The English women is ranting at the wrong people for some reason I could hear Rule Britannia and thought it is a shame we are part of that Union. Her raving was enough to make Admiral Nelsons other eye pop out, as this is definitely not her ideal Lily-white England or his.

    I do not suppose she would understand that it is her own country’s problem for invading butchering and enforcing British rule and teaching us all proper manners at gunpoint. It is nice to see that British stiff upper lip replaced with a jaw dropping disbelief that their own cruel history has come back to bite them in the lily white arse.

    If they take away her right to speak, regardless if we agree or not then, we should allow the thought police to ban any form of expression in my opinion this is more dangerous to society than a somewhat at times incoherent outburst from an obviously emotionally disturbed women.

    If you look at the video, the woman is clearly spewing out bile but is not posturing in a physically confrontational manner. There is a man behind her who lets poor judgment dictate his approach, which is clearly physical fortunately, he is calmed down by wiser who prevented an ugly rant from possibly becoming an even more disturbing issue.

    We have enough buck eegits in Northern Ireland who see foreigners as a problem yet oddly enough do not mind the corporate foreigners whose greed along with the bankers and government caused the financial crisis.

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  47. Larry,
    I knew someday, somewhere, somehow we would eventually find something to agree on. I just wonder how long it will last?

    SMH/Mackers,
    If they removed the children from racist mothers I know where I would have ended up.
    My mother actually believed they employed black actors, doctors etc because they got them half price.

    Seriously though, I agree with SMH, I find racism in any shape or form vile.
    I also have problems with the idea that migrant workers are causing detriment to unions, other workers or the economy but I'm sure the BNP has plenty of manufactured stats and figures to bear out that one.

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  48. RE: MickHall

    BEST COMMENT input here so far imo
    'Historically, racist filth which pollutes a society has almost always been generated top down.'

    RE: 'Get real Mary, a great many of the officials who would decide on which child is taken into care are racist themselves.'
    Point taken. What you wrote is worthy pondering My proposed solution just a temporary satisfaction kneejerk of revenge response re removing the child. I hate seeing kids being infected with poisonous lies... I don't know the answer is the truth & feel enormous anger at racism.Re the query would I act as righteous or such re individuals who are addicts etc. yeah i would but am seasoned in the work. Years of working with people living with addiction/mental health issues & blood borne viruses. Me and a handful of others decades ago were the lst to put our faces/names to living with a specific blood borne virus (Hep C) Experiencing first hand the hammering of
    judgements/hate/revulsion. I am one of the fortunate who lived to clear the virus & am over 23 years clean from IV usage (insert round of applause ahaha) NB Society never forgives if privy to your history. Just the same for people who have done time. Never forgives Being old affords great liberty as shuffling off the mortal coil is looming fast. I happily put my face name to all I believe - shaken off misplaced shame. Hope i would fight for any person's rights to dignity and freedom even for that poxy Emma who needs help as she is twisted with delusions but I ain't no Mother Theresa. I do relish the thought of her sitting in a prison cell.

    @Marty it's abit like that in Australia. Everywhere I look it is spot the Aussie - Irish nurses, Irish managers, Irish labourers - an influx like nothing else. Like I said we are all immigrants/refugees one way or another. This land i am on belongs to Aboriginal Australians - not any of us. NB Ireland belongs to the Irish but we owe the many non-Irish the right to refuge and a better life because nations all around the world took/take our people in did they not. We Irish have white privilege on us - rest assured if were black or light brown rabid hate/blame would be directed fullon at us.

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  49. Boyne Rover,

    keep the discussion real. You know fine well even she, as drunk or deluded as she might have been, would not have shouted 'Liverpool for the League.'!!

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  50. SMH never hear the term "BLACK IRISH" hon.Australia is calling out for skilled workers, like New Zealand there is a dire need for construction workers.unlike Ireland there is little or no work,the kids are leaving in their droves AGAIN Precisely because of that fact,they will no doubt help rebuild these countries and no doubt be told to fuck of when the job is done just like their fathers before them.in the meantime we have large numbers of immigrants both legal and illegal heading here,now my question is what are they going to do and does this not leave these people wide open to be exploited by the criminal elements ,such as prostitution etc the dire economic situation we face here should be a call to those who would wish to come here that we need to get our own house in order before we can put out the "Céad mile fáilte "mat out again.. Anthony if that lass on the tram had shouted "Liverpool for the leauge" the other passengers would had died laughing.....

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  51. Belfast Bookworm and Marty,

    Thanks. So much for my knowledge of Luke Kelly!

    Mick,

    ‘Whether commentators like it or not her bitterness reflect those of
    millions of ordinary British people (and Irish people) who were not asked
    whether they wanted to share their countries with people whom they do not
    understand, whose history they do not share and who they instinctively
    believe will undercut wage rates, etc.’

    As someone strongly opposed to racism, you have raised issues here that cannot be wished away in the name of PC. They have to be addressed.

    ‘There was a conscious decision by NL Government to allow a flood of new
    immigrants into the UK as they wished to drive wages down for their
    business pals.’

    A point frequently overlooked in the discussion. It ends up with the foreign national workers being blamed directly and blurs the discussion. It also makes it look like workers are racist and bosses are not. Yet the bosses racially select the foreign workers to maximise their own profit.

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  52. Anthony, Mick exactly ,spot on.

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  53. Felt a bit sorry for the racist woman on the tram. I have no sympathy for her views but she looked like she was on medication and frankly not all there. But, charging her maybe isn’t a bad message to send, though it’s harsh. With the economy unravelling there will be more of this (and other kinds) of lazy blame-mongering. Maybe people will think twice if they know they will be pulled up for it?

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  54. Mick,

    I was very uneasy myself with SMH’s call for children of racist parents to be taken from them and put in care. It seems such a draconian move and without justification. It is a view that was aired long before SMH expressed it but it means that people who have different views from us are to be punished by having their children taken from them. It is nightmarish. I am relieved SMH rowed back from it.

    SMH,

    ‘words are violent and wound non whites as sharply as a knife being stuck in u.’

    But everybody who wants to censor shouts they are wounded and offended by whatever opinion it is they have taken umbrage with.

    Larry,

    When they are not using terms like ‘nigger’ which is an attempt to dehumanise a person and instead expressing opinions no matter how vile, I feel we have to let it contend. It is trying to separate ideas, no matter how primitive, out from abuse. Not always an easy task. If people come on this blog and start demanding their right to call people ‘niggers’ they won’t be here.

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  55. Blackwatertown,

    I think the point being made by Padraig Reidy was on the fragmented and uncoordinated way in which such a state could emerge.

    Belfast Bookworm,

    It is the old problem of making the distinction between abuse and opinions. I think she was being abusive and agreed with Boyne Rover and Alfie that she could have been put off the tram at the first available stop. I believe people have the right to smoke but not to blow it in my face. I just don’t believe that jailing her or charging her under the ‘racial aggravation’ clause was justified. Had she have been shouting about football rather than colour there is no way she would have been jailed. I took the view that she was more a public nuisance than anything else.

    SMH,

    ‘I hate seeing kids being infected with poisonous lies...’

    As do most of us I guess. When I hear religious people tell kids they will go to hell iof they reject god, I find that poisonous. But I would never argue for a cleric to be jailed for it or not to be able to express such an opinion.

    Nor do I relish the thought of her or anyone else sitting in a prison cell. Been in one too long to relish others there. I know that is silly sentiment and that often jail is the least worst option but I always have a natural sympathy for people who fall into the hands of screws. And it probably warps my judgement.

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  56. One of the most acceptable forms of racism in Ireland today is a hatred of travellers. Some of my friends and family who would pride themselves on their pluralist attitudes to foreign nationals are nevertheless appallingly prejudiced against the travelling community. They will complain about the high crime rate of travellers, their work in the black economy and their antediluvian notions about marriage and the role of women.

    It may well be true that travellers are more likely to commit crimes than the members of settled community, but, even if this were the case, I am not sure it is because there is something wrong with travellers per se or their culture. Travellers tend to be much more at risk of poverty than members of the settled community and they also suffer a huge amount of discrimination. Taken together with the state's failure to make adequate resources available (even during the boom) for traveller education, it must be incredibly difficult for travellers to get jobs. Can any of us honestly say that we would not resort to crime or the black economy if faced with those circumstances? And should we really be singling out travellers for tax avoidance when the likes of Denis O'Brien can make his millions here via a controversially-awarded mobile phone licence before becoming a tax exile?

    That said, I do have misgivings about some aspects of traveller culture. Indeed, I am not sure if it is a good idea for families with babies and young children to be living on the side of a road or in a halting site. Furthermore, I do find the old-fashioned and at times misogynistic attitudes of many travellers towards women disturbing. Yet, equally, there were many aspects of the hyper-conservative Irish culture of the past to which I would have objected, not to mention the extreme Muslim cultures today in the Middle East. In any case, I do believe that education and establishing contacts between communities can help overcome most of our prejudices.

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  57. There can certainly be double standards. Western women will not be permitted to dress as they choose in middle eastern countries but muslims insist on dressing as they please in Europe.

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  58. Nuala,

    ‘If they removed the children from racist mothers I know where I would have ended up.’

    Most interesting take. Never even thought of it that way.

    I often wonder of prejudice always amounts to racism. I essentially see racism as a belief system which holds that one set of people is inferior because they are perceived to belong to a different race. Like the term fascism, I think racism is a term that we use much too liberally.

    I also feel that we are racist when we hold to the view that a group of people should be denied some human rights which others should have – that goes some way towards creating a category of non-human. This is one of my problems with religious institutions. They have a long history of treating women as inferior beings which I think is not just sexist but racist. They seek to exclude them from that class of people who can have human rights.

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  59. SMH

    They already do take children into custody.

    http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/01/15/nazi-named/

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  60. Mackers,
    My mother would not have applauded that outburst on the tram, if anything she would have been horrified.
    That's what I always found so confusing, everything about her was in direct contradiction to everything I perceived racists to be, yet she was and she was totally unapologetic.

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  61. Tain Bo,

    ‘The term racism is a clever contradiction as it actually agrees that based on the colour of skin and country of origin that the one human race is not one race but many.’

    Something akin to my own views on the matter.

    ‘I would be a hypocrite if I said I have never told a British soldier where to go on the fact that he was a foreigner in my country.’

    In parts of Ireland the term ‘foreigner’ has a very pejorative connotation. I recall during the blanket protest when English or Scottish screws were doing the rounds Kieran Nugent would call out ‘3 foreigners on the wing.’ And as far as we were concerned that is what they were.

    Boyne Rover,

    ‘did she actually say anything that was racist all?’

    People could not be British because they were black. That seemed racist to me.

    Alfie,

    I know quite a few Trots. In fact one of the best and most consistent activists over the past forty years is a Trotskyist – Eamonn McCann. I disagreed with him over the cartoons but it never dulled my admiration for him. Nor was he a wally about the matter. He just had a hardnosed analysis which I was fundamentally at odds with. Others took it personal and let that cloud their judgement. I suddenly became a ‘racist.’

    While being deeply mistrustful of the NATO assault on Serbia it has always perplexed me as to why people on the Left downplayed Srebrenica. Herman’s analysis of Rwanda was totally unjustified. Why he sought to give any cover to one of the most fascistic regimes since WW2 baffled me. The West had only to do one thing there to seriously undermine the genocide – take out Radio Hate. Yet it mumbled something about not wanting to interfere in a country’s freedom to communicate. This is one reason I am so suspicious about the West when it talks about humanitarian intervention. When I see the French bombing Libya after what they did in Rwanda I roll my eyes in disbelief.

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  62. Anthony,

    Why the hell was McCann in favour of censoring the cartoons? Doesn't he believe in freedom of expression?

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  63. Thanks for the insights - I've never really got my head round the word racist either. It seems a redundant word given that we are all part of the one human race.

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  64. Frank,

    Pulling people up for their ideas is fine but jailing them for it. That is something else.

    Alfie,

    I wonder if what happens in the travellers’ situation is racism per se as convention and consensus understand it to be. There is a lot of prejudice for sure and an abhorrence of traveller culture which might be even more vehemently expressed than racism.

    How far are we justified in going with a view that a group has certain characteristics which make one form of behaviour more likely to emerge from within that group than in say another group? On the other hand if we fail to make generalisations how can we talk about culture?

    I see the dangers in generalising. If I were to generalise on the basis of experience with individual travellers I would dismiss the bulk of them as bullies and thieves. But that could simply not be justified.
    I am not persuaded that poverty explains crime. It seems to me that the vast bulk of crime is carried out by the rich. At the same time I feel that people like Frog Ward helped reinforce the image of travellers in a negative sense. When Padraig Nally shot him there was very little sympathy for Ward, even though he was unarmed, posed no threat to the life of Nally and was shot in the back.

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  65. Excellent thread, sorry not had the time to read through all the comments but Bookworm and SMH, two classic examples of Ireland's own shameful (and ridiculous) racism.

    So true SMH regarding Ireland's own long history of emigration and especially in this great land of the south, to which I'm sure you're as greatful as i am to be in. Nothing so hypocritical as a racist Irish person giving out about immigrants.

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  66. Anthony,

    In my mind the term racism serves parties like the BNP and others who believe in “pure blood lines” as it agrees with their view that people are different based on colour and origin.

    Prejudicial bigotry is an age-old social disease and throughout history, it has become a plague at times and under the right circumstances, it will again. I doubt if censoring words are people is a cure.

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  67. Nuala,

    And yet she would have been a very good parent. This is why I find it a bad idea for people to suggest that children should be taken away from parents with racist views.

    Alfie,

    It was the party line at the time – SWP. The party was after the Islamic support in England through Respect and was willing to make serious concessions to that element described by Tony Cliff as ‘clerical fascists.’ McCann remained decent throughout. And has been a reliable since when times have been difficult.

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