Tonight The Pensive Quill carries a piece by guest writer Thomas "Dixie" Elliott
Are We Seeing Another Wasted Generation of Republicans?
by Thomas "Dixie" Elliott
I remember a long time ago, during the Blanket Protest, Tommy McKearney said something during a lecture on the wing that has stuck with me ever since. He was talking about the need for political awareness among grassroot volunteers.
"Without political awareness, we'll put people on pedestals and be too preoccupied looking up to them to see what they are doing behind our backs."
Tommy was right then and today it's no different whether we are talking about the leaderships of PSF, 32SCM RNU, IRSP, Eirigi, RSF....etc.
Young people should be capable of deciding for themselves what is right and what is wrong. I believe that today's young Republicans are far more politically aware than we were and that's a good thing. However they should look at what happened in the past and see where we failed.
And we failed because we believed in and followed the few, without question; until it got to the point where it was seen as traitorous to question.
What is happening today is an attempt at replicating the past. A past that can never be replicated for various reasons. Mainly we are fractured like we never were before, like a broken plate with one big piece and various smaller pieces. Fair enough we were fractured in the past with PIRA on hand and the INLA in another but these groups waged an effective war against the Brits and still it wasn't enough.
Can today's armed Republican groups better this? Quite simply never...Ever!
So why are young people who volunteer for these groups being told that someday they can better it and remove the Brits by force of arms? That is a lie even greater than that told to us by Adams and McGuinness. Many young people will go to jail and spend many wasted years before they realise that they were lied to. By then it will be too late.
Look at it like this, do you think that Bobby Sands and his 9 comrades would have willingly died on Hunger Strike if they knew that 30 years later it meant that PSF had merely replaced the SDLP as the largest Nationalist party in the North? That they had changed from Smashing Stormont to rebuilding and propping it up? That the party would become the most powerful propaganda weapon in the hands of the Brits?
I never believed for one second that this would happen but it has. And what makes anyone believe it can't happen again? After all this generation who believe in armed struggle are still being lied to. Do you, any of you want to spend long years locked away while watching leadership figures slowly embracing electoralism?
It's already begun. Hasn't it?
How many times have we heard or read that PSF or PIRA did this or that as an excuse for what is happening today? When will it get round to taking seats in Stormont?
Oh no, that will never happen. And so said Marty in the past. "Shame. Shame. Shame!" He said three times, much like Paisley's "Never. Never. Never!" Or Thatcher's "Crime is crime is crime."
If I hear that or similar denials now-a-days I listen for a cock crowing.
To get to the point, do you want to waste your youth incarcerated so that one day 32CSM or RNU, RSF etc might replace PSF as the voice of Nationalism? That's an impossible dream in it's own the way things are going, never mind uniting two corrupt governing parts of Ireland as one corrupt whole.
Or do you want to spend your youth into adulthood rebuilding Republicanism to the extent that it becomes a proper threat to the corrupt system North and South that feeds off the working classes?
Republicanism has become stale, today's leaders can only mimic Adams and McGuinness of old. They have no fresh ideas nor are they trying to move away from the mistakes of the past. Therefore they will only repeat them. They can't attract a sizable section of Republicanism which has become alienated, which has no time for PSF yet doesn't even want to stand behind the present day prisoners who are suffering what many of them did in the past.
I've seen this first hand myself. I said it at a prisoners meeting last year while just two weeks ago I attended a meeting concerning Maghaberry, a well attended meeting with, members of PSF, socialists, 32CSm etc in attendance. Yet I looked around and could see only a handful of former prisoners. I remarked on this at the meeting, however I didn't say that those I spoke to and asked to attend had their reservations because they believed that those prisoners shouldn't be in jail. They were being used to try and recreate the past, 1981. The war they are fighting is a bad joke. Yes these were some of the comments I heard and they didn't come from Shinners either. If these groups can't get the support of Republicans who don't support the GFA then how do they ever hope to gain the support of ordinary people?
A meeting about prison conditions was no place to bring this up, but it should be brought up sometime soon and often whether there are those who like it or not.
The leaderships, especially of those groups engaged in armed struggle should be brought to task as to how they believe they can succeed where we in the past failed. It is not up to the likes of the PSF leadership to bring them to task. It would be hypocritical for a start. It is up to the likes of us who were part of the past yet didn't lie to men and women dying on the streets, country roads and prisons to bring them to task.
We owe it to this generation which is being wasted already.
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A timely and apt article.
ReplyDeleteWhether true or not, there is an underlying feeling that the unimaginative prisoners are determined to emulate 1981. It is not an ace card, it's an unfortunate, ill judged, nieve strategy. Support in the main, what there is of it, is eminating from the fear of vulnerable prisoners being humiliated and beaten by sectarian screws. There's no groundswell of support or urgency on the matter politically.
'Look at it like this, do you think that Bobby Sands and his 9 comrades would have willingly died on Hunger Strike if they knew that 30 years later it meant that PSF had merely replaced the SDLP as the largest Nationalist party in the North? That they had changed from Smashing Stormont to rebuilding and propping it up? That the party would become the most powerful propaganda weapon in the hands of the Brits?'
Are a few misguided wnabe's who were born too late trying to get their 15 minutes of fame? How sad.
As for pedastals...some of us used to call those engaged in 'rangs' on the H-Block wings "plastic people", but only between ourselves, dangerous to openly question.
Good article and says it all perfectly. There's a need maybe in this modern era to reassess republican relevance, just as there are major questions over monarchy relevance. Centuries out of date?
I don't think it is confined to wasted youth only --what of wasted mid or later years? --how many older Republicans have adequate pensions from their dedication? As many learned from years of imprisonment -outside life goes on --children need shoes on their feet and bills must be paid not to mention the damage or hurt caused when men realise that they have become estranged from their children --and if a kid goes off the rails the father has no influence with him to bring him back --these are just some of the things Republican families went through in the past and will go through again to be returned as the theme of this blogg suggests.
ReplyDeleteRuairi J
ReplyDeleteNot sure if there are many young people engaged in armed resistance today, that actually believe that they can remove the British presence though such tactics. I also doubt that there were many young people, who joined the Provisionals effort for example, after the mid 80s, who believed that they could succeed any better in this same objective. This still didn't stop them. Seems young people will always be drawn to armed struggle regardless of it's effectiveness, while the conditions continue that spawn it.
Talk of Republicans attempting to replicate the past is handy, but ignores the same fundamental cause for their actions.
Thomas, Larry,
ReplyDeleteI agree, thought provoking article. as a lifelong republican socialist I am confused and upset by the factionalism in the republican movement.
It's the old adage, 'divide and conquer'.
I was born in 1967 and there was one Sinn Fein, one IRA. How many are there now 7? 8?
I cried last night, tears of joy that Brendan Lillis is finally free and tear of sorrow that I knew, even before reading this article that the huge struggle that some of us put up to get him out was made harder by the confusion and division in the republican movement.
As an IRSP member it breaks me up to constantly have to try to explain ethos of the various republcan groups over and over and over to young people down here (I live in Wexford).
They can't focus, they don't know who to support. Most in theory want a united Ireland, want the brits out. Most love and respect Bobby Sands and the other 9 brave men who went on the blanket and then took the ultimate sacrifice.
Yet down here it's hard enough to fight FF,FG, Labour and a media that does it's living best to ignore what is happening in the six counties without having the extra hardship of having RSF and PSF lurking the the bushes waiting to stab us in the back if we make any progress.
I am a member of the East Coast Republican Socialist Unity Committee. This consists of members of ÉirÃgÃ, IRSP and the IWU. We are trying to heal some of the divisions because the splintered and confused republican movement that must have them laughing their heads off in Whitehall and Stormont.
I am crying now. I woke up and immediately my thoughts turned to Marion Price, Gerry MacGough and the other internees and P.O.Ws in Maghaberry.
I don't know what to do. I can't make everyone support the IRSP, yet I can see no realistic alternative. Other groups claim to be socialist, claim to be republican, yet none have our dialectic, our history, our tradition.
They imitate us and stab us in the back at the same time. Over and over and over.
We have a slogan a quote from Ernesto "Che" Guevara, "Hasta la Victoria Siempre" (There's always a victory to be achieved). We always look for that victory, we win these sweet little victories from time to time, Brendan and the Green Isle strike come to mind, yet we get little credit even within the wider republican community. But we are still here, we are relentless and I have to believe that sooner or later all republicans will rally under the banner of the starry plough and drive those Brits out of Ireland once and for all.
As you wrote PSF is the new SDLP up north, I think they are the new Fianna Fail down here.
They are traitors. They betrayed Bobby Sands and the blanketmen, they betrayed the heros of the armed struggle of the 70s, 80s and 90s and the dead generations behind them.
Saoirse go deo!
Rory
Pertinent good read but totally depressing too.
ReplyDeleteRe: 'What is happening today is an attempt at replicating the past.A past that can never be replicated for various reasons. Mainly we are fractured like we never were before,'
Agree.
Re: 'So why are young people who volunteer for these groups being told that someday they can better it and remove the Brits by force of arms'
Because they see no viable alternative - and that in itself burns the fear of incarceration/being monitored/harrassed to nought. If ones own life is taken cheaply so can someone else's be. Death is not a deterrent nor being locked up. Republicanism is like a ghosttown but the past bleeds into the present always. No-one forgets but no-one remembers the mistakes.
Tiarna yes to all of what you wrote... often overlooked... it is not just 'wasted youth' It is all ages & lives who were impacted. ripple effect/generational...
One of the weakness of the left, whether Irish republican or not, is we were often far to keen in searching out what you term 'traitors,' we often overlook who our main enemy was.
ReplyDeleteTo deem all members of SF as traitors helps who? I am not asking this in a combative manner as I found your comment particularly moving and sincere. I just do not believe the vanguard party is a viable vehicle today.
Indeed the main reason the shinner's ending up where they are, was because they operated the tightest vanguard ship. Some might say they took democratic centralism onto the bridge and in the north sailed it into the rocks.
You mentioned Guevara's, "Hasta la Victoria Siempre"
and rightly so, but the small victory you speak of, the release of Brendan, was brought about by the use of a broad left and Republican political base.
Comradely regards
Mick mo chara,
ReplyDeleteI understand where you are coming from and in the 70's Sinn Fein were proper and righteous (I really have no idea what caused the fued with the irps and don't really care) and many members and supporters still are.
Their leadership now though are going down the same carreerist route the sticky leadership took and caused our split from them and as you said, they take democratic centralism to an extreme that we don't and never did.
Regards,
Rory
the youth of today only have to look to 8th july 1981 when from that day 6 men died needlessly on the advice of adams and morrison to further their and owen cartoons political aims.
ReplyDeleteRory
ReplyDelete"They are traitors. They betrayed Bobby Sands and the blanketmen, they betrayed the heros of the armed struggle of the 70s, 80s and 90s"
You cite factionalism and are upset that it goes on within republicanism though you write the above. You state you are trying to heal division within republicanism. I would argue you fuel it.
Could you give an insight into how you are going about doing it?
In many many instances throughout Ireland PSF members are still seen as heroes of the 70s 80s and 90s. This we cannot dispute.
Many many who are opposed to the PSF position are every bit as heroic from the same period and I value all of their dedication and commitment the same for that period of the war.
All blanketmen remain ex blanketmen no matter what their current stance is and if the hunger strike had continued on, then a few of those you call traitors could no doubt been have on the role of honour.
The article for me was around wasted youth and the risk of repeating it by filling the jails again with our young people and not about factionalism.
I think Larry is spot on with having to assess the relevance of republicanism today because nationalist/ republicans are still giving their support to the SDLP and PSF. Without a credible alternative then I see little change ahead leaving the void that fuels our young taking up arms whether we see it as misguided or not.
Peadar,
ReplyDeleteI think if you read both my comments carefully you have the answers to your questions and criticisms of my position.
We are trying to heal the divisions through the Est Coast Republican Socialist Unity Committee.
My comments were relevent to the article as I am a serious street agitator, organiser and educator who talks to the working class youth of Wexford town and tries to get them engaged in politics, not violence. The IRSP has always been strong on the primacy of politics especially since Ta Power wrote his document in 1987.
I know there were brave volunteers and sincere socialists in the provisional wing since day it's foundatiopn and still are as I more or less acknowlege in my second comment.
Furthermore, I have a few close frinds in Wexford who are members of Provisional Sinn Fein. I also regularly discuss things with local Republican Sinn Fein members and one member of the 32 County soverignty movement.
Needless to say I know a good few friends and comrades in ÉirÃgà and even know and like a few sticks and many ex-sticks. I say the same to them all as I do to my fellow IRSP members, that is that I RESPECT ANY REPUIBLICAN who is prepared to make a stand for the cause.
Maybe you could re-read my comments and clarify your exact problem with my position.
Rory
Ruairi
ReplyDelete‘Not sure if there are many young people engaged in armed resistance today, that actually believe that they can remove the British presence though such tactics. I also doubt that there were many young people, who joined the Provisionals effort for example, after the mid 80s, who believed that they could succeed any better in this same objective.’
Why do you think they joined? The young ones coming into the jail at the time seemed to be convinced the war could be won. Views like those of Pat Sheehan that the war should be called off as it could not be won were treated with disdain. I felt it was amongst the older ones that a view had begun to develop that things were not so simple as they had been in the early years.
‘Seems young people will always be drawn to armed struggle regardless of it's effectiveness, while the conditions continue that spawn it.’
They join to resist rather than put the Brits out?
It is an interesting take which there should be wider reflection on.
‘Seems young people will always be drawn to armed struggle regardless of it's effectiveness, while the conditions continue that spawn it.’
ReplyDeleteThey join to resist rather than put the Brits out?'
In todays political doldrums might it be like a sense of identity/belonging? Like joining a gang, having status?
Certainly can't imagine them being political animals with a serious plan of action.
Larry,
ReplyDeletethe issue of motivation interests me. I have often pondered how seemingly highly motivated people appear to switch positions with such ease. I also wonder on why people hold onto positions that are so clearly implausible. I think Ruairi raises points that the 'join a gang mentality' do not address.
The gang mentality was there in the Provos at the end; I think that was clear in the killing of Robert McCartney where not one iota of political motivation played any part. With gangsters I think they know the moral boundaries are crossed but they have a 'so what' attitude. People joining republican armed groups seem to think no moral boundaries are being crossed.
Some young people find the idea of the IRA very appealing because they think it is a morally correct position. I have spoken with young kids and they might have a dreamy mentality but gangsters is the last thing they are.
Never said they were gangsters. Was trying to delve into the reasons.
ReplyDeleteYouthful energy, sense of excitement, identity, patriotism? Lets face it, there's no 'war' on.
No conflict being the very reason, i contend so many other young people now join SF. Safe, trendy and a badge.
maybe the dissident youth are 'tougher'?? Lets hope they don't get the quare gunk!
Dixie,
ReplyDeletethis is a very important piece and it has prompted some interesting response, Trot talk aside.
Armed republicanism can produce nothing in terms of forward momentum. In some ways it serves as a gelling agent for the political class in the North. It can define itself and unite itself in opposition to the armed republicans.
And yet I think the people engaged will not listen to our reasoning. They rely on the authority of republican tradition rather than reason. Some are so honest on this that that it just seems to kill debate. There seems nowhere the conversation can proceed from that. They will talk and debate the issues, not threaten you when you challenge them, come to your aid at the drop of a hat, but they march to the beat of a drum to which we are now tone deaf. Some very intelligent people hold positions we think absolutely implausible. They think our positions provide no answers. Many feel so let down by what SF settled for. In there I sense an element of embarrassment that they went along with it for so long which fuels their anger even more. But they can't forever beat themselves up over it with others facing the consequences. I think most of us wish we had left the Provos earlier than we did. We never spotted the right moment as it was happening, always later.
As I argued elsewhere these people feel cheated rather than defeated. I think we have an obligation to put our critique to them but never ever to join the ranks of those who would criminalise and abandon their prisoners, use the language of Thatcher, stand shoulder to shoulder with the DUP screaming 'traitor' at them, call for more repression and informing.
But in terms of persuading armed republicans to desist, I think it is outside our ability.
politics now seems a well oiled well worked gravy train. Few politicians seem to know what they're doing. Other than getting minted. Look at the global situation.
ReplyDeleteSeems more than of a profitable career than a vocation.
has Fionnuala gone on holiday?
Fionnuala Fionnuala...where for art thou ...Fionnuala.
Rory
ReplyDelete"They are traitors. They betrayed Bobby Sands and the blanketmen, they betrayed the heros of the armed struggle of the 70s, 80s and 90s"
Who? really was my question.
Many positions have changed. Mackers mentions Pat Sheehan. Still seen by many as a hero of those times and if the strike had continued could have been possibly the next to die.
The term traitors, sell outs, violence junkies etc has become far to commonly used pitched by republicans against republicans. Larry nailed it that the relevance today needs to be debated & discussed to death.
How you reconcile with those you see as splintered and broken may be the problem as it is more likely their position is now polar to your own.
Peadar
ReplyDeleteA number of factors are missing. Such as:
Major dissafection among the population.
Popular issues relevant to the community which are at severe odds with the present political status quo.
Lack of numbers of interested, politically minded people.
Lack of leadership and quality amongst those that are there. [no disrespect]
Maybe the answer is not to be found in the 'old' but in something new. Maybe we all just have to wait until the old judas' and dinasaurs of Ulster politics are magot feed before we can build a new dispensation.
I personally find it difficult to take all the factionalism serious and get pissed off at debates that are like a wee dog endlessly chasing it's own tail, while the world passes by.
If in my flippance and jest i annoyed people, i do apologise.
Peadar,
ReplyDeleteThey betrayed the hunger strikers by supporting and participating in a partitionist British government in the six counties.
The H-|Block martyrs and thousands before and after died for an independant 32 county Irish Republic.
End of debate,
Rory
Mick,
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons the traitor term gets thrown around is because it is part of republican tradition to label as traitors those who settle for treaties with the British that do nothing to end British involvement in the country. This is what made McGuinness sound so absurd when he called republicans traitors. It had all the appearance of the puma calling the swan black. I am sure many good people signed up to the Treaty forces in the 1920s but they all got labelled traitor. Look at the republican song ‘take it down from the mast Irish traitors.’ In the case of SF, they used the term against the SDLP and Sticks so for their republican critics today the gander can sup its own sauce.
It seems a very harsh term and I see little point in using it. It contributes nothing to debate but if that is how people feel about it then they can put it out and stand over it if they are able to.
‘I just do not believe the vanguard party is a viable vehicle today.’
I think it has helped destroy socialism.
Rory,
‘Other groups claim to be socialist, claim to be republican, yet none have our dialectic, our history, our tradition.’
But the fractiousness within the RSM, the constant feuding, the militarism all denuded the movement of a radical face. Republican socialism was tarnished by it.
‘I have to believe that sooner or later all republicans will rally under the banner of the starry plough and drive those Brits out of Ireland once and for all.’
But why do you have to believe it? It is not a religion. You say this, somebody else says CIRA is the way forward, everybody claiming their own group or sect has the true answer.
It would be very hard to argue that there is anything republican left within the Provos. The Brits got the outcome they had favoured since the collapse of Stormont. But that does not mean that the rivals to the Provos provide any republican answers regardless of their republican credentials.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteThe fractiousness, fueding and militarism are all in the past. They may have tarnished republican socialism at the time but I think it is fair to say that the IRSP was constantly on the back foot from day one due to attacks from other republican groups. This certainly contributed in a big way to all three of these problems.
Our aim is a 32 county socialist republic, plain and simple.
I do not as I said in my first comment expect everyone to agree with us and would expect a range of parties to exist in that republic.
I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time. Most republican groups use that flag anyway, it is not exclusive to us. But it is, and always has been the flag of Republican Socialism.
Socialism is not a religion, it is an economic and political philosophy, based on the principal that all people are equal and entitled to an equal share of the wealth of the nation.
I will finish with a quote from James Connolly that I think was proven true when the Free State was established.
"If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs."
Rory
AM
ReplyDeleteI'm really not convinced that many young people joined the Provisional's campaign, after it had been fought for 20 long years (with British casualties steadily declining) who could really have believed that the British would be removed by such a campaign. So why did they join?
Consider the example of Tom Williams. When the IRA of that time paid out the RUC, could Williams have thought for a minute, that this endeavour in which he was involved, would help 'put the Brits out'
Human nature does not change.
Larry
Seems to me, people are more likely unwilling, rather than unable to understand, that what motivates young people today to engage in armed action, for right or wrong, is exactly the thing that has motivated for generations, regardless of how it's dressed up.
Ruairi Joseph
Ruairi
ReplyDeleteThere have been many changes over the decades and centuries other than a line on the map of Ireland.
It's not the Gaelic elite who are zipping off to Spain. Working class people have property there these days.
Grievances and conditions are unrecogniseable from the time of Tone and Emmet and even the 1916 rebellion.
Some argue the reason the 1950's campaign failed was because the welfare state had 'kicked in' and northern Catholics were better off than their Southern counterparts.
If we're going to fall back on centuries old excuses and stratagies and slogans, are we any different than orangeism?
Is it a case that if every citizen was given a million pounds, the removal of the border would still be an over-riding issue?
It doesn't inspire. The hungerstrikers starved for principles, but any I knew are in Stormont now. Nuf said.
Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required. The only thing people see in socialist and republican rhetoric is a few paddy's with guns desperately looking an excuse. How do you address that? By harping on about past defeats and gripes?
Rory
ReplyDelete'I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time'.
No crime in empathy, it shows 'humanoid' charachteristics and helps rule up the possible presence of sociopathic tendencies.
Tho when I read it I cringed. Thought you might have been half lit from the previous night or something.
Ballot+armalite has run it's course. Socialism too some argue. Capitalism is a chronic mess, but people prefer the waves of boom and bust to one size fits all and our lumpen proletariate are very well off. Possibly why there's no rioting or looting here?
Put the 17, 18 + 1900s back in the history book. [ for a moment ] If you want some topical debate look no further than Michael O'Leary's comments in todays press. Like or loath him, he's not behind the door on issues that are topical and relevant.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.independent.ie/national-news/oleary-ill-quit-ireland-if-they-raise-income-tax-2853865.htmlyou
Larry,
ReplyDeleteI know there has been some discussion about the motives behind the protests in the jails. I don’t know whether this is the result of factionalism with one group blaming another. But I do know from experience that the screws if left unchecked will brutalise prisoners and violate their rights. It is what screws do. There may well be no alternative to imprisonment but society must always ask itself when it builds prisons how prisoners can be protected from the violence of prison staff. During the blanket protest assaults were a daily occurrence. I believe I am not overstating the case to say there were thousands of assaults by screws against prisoners during the period. How many screws were ever charged?
‘As for pedestals...some of us used to call those engaged in 'rangs' on the H-Block wings "plastic people", but only between ourselves,dangerous to openly question.’
And they abandoned everything they ever said or held to, reinforcing their plasticity. In our wings it was ‘Marxism’ whereas on the mixed wings it was religion, all of it to be abandoned with gusto once the adherents got a new god to worship. A way to maintain control and out the day in.
Rory,
ReplyDelete‘They may have tarnished republican socialism at the time.’
I don’t think the party ever recovered from it. That the party steeped in the ethos of Connolly is so marginalised in today’s economic climate - when growing numbers of people must seriously be thinking that capitalism is incapable of solving the problem and that an alternative to it is needed – is in part a result of that fractious feuding. I know today’s leadership has made huge strides in eradicating the feud mentality but I think it has come with a price: the projection of the party as a serious socialist alternative.
‘Our aim is a 32 county socialist republic, plain and simple.’
But without strategic structure it is a flag blowing in the wind.
‘I admit the remark about rallying under the banner of the starry plough was a bit over the top but I was a bit emotional at the time.’
It happens.
‘Socialism is not a religion, it is an economic and political
philosophy, based on the principal that all people are equal and
entitled to an equal share of the wealth of the nation.’
But that is said almost religiously. How to convince people is the problem.
I am familiar with your quote from Connolly but it does not alter the fact that North and South we have a right wing neo liberal agenda that seems to think punishing the poorest is the cure for economic woes. The only opposition worth talking about seems to be in the South.
Larry
ReplyDelete'There have been many changes over the decades and centuries other than a line on the map of Ireland'
Of course this is the case, the point being made, is what I believe to be the modivation behind young peoples decisions today, to continue with armed struggle. To dismiss them as 'a few misguided wnabes who were born too late trying to get their 15 minutes of fame' simply isn't good enough. Yes a lot has changed, things continully change, other things never do.
'Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required'. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it does sound familiar.
Ruairi J
Ruairi
ReplyDelete'Getting modern, getting real and getting a relevant programe is what's required'. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but it does sound familiar.'
Leaving history in the books for a while/change. Will a united Ireland change peoples quality of life? In a modern British isles, European and global context will it make a positive or negative difference? Do you know? Is that question relevant or is the united Ireland the only consideration? Or are we fighting battles that our predecessors lost long long ago?
I don't go to battle re-enactments, but there's an ex Irish Army guy at University who participates in them all over Europe and Ireland. Each to his own. They have their place for enthusiasts. I lived through the troubles, i don't need a re-enactment. He was in the south the entire troubles though only 15 miles away from Derry, he's more intrigued by the siege of Magdaburg than the battle of the Bogside.
I don't think many wish to return to De Valera's 1930's poverty riddled 'celtic wonderland'. For me, this is 2011. What's done is done and to be honest, talk of Tone Pearse and Connolly and 1798 and 1916 is ok and i'm proud of my history. But in relation to the here and now and the Irish population it's all one big yawn.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
It's not the solution. Is the fact what I'm saying sounds familiar but you don't know what I mean possibly part of the problem?
Maybe it's our refusal to face reality? Or an inability to accept it?
The book The GFA The Death of Irish Republicanism, was very aptly titled. Why perpetuate failure? Maybe the Irish people are as free as they require.
Larry
ReplyDelete“The book The GFA The Death of Irish Republicanism, was very aptly titled. Why perpetuate failure? Maybe the Irish people are as free as they require.”
The book title is subjective and deliberate and incorrect. This era of Irish republicanism is far from dead it has mutated and changed direction which is not uncommon.
You post here perpetuating the subject(s) regarding Irish republicanism so why make a statement that you participate in?
Ruairi,
ReplyDeleteIt used to seem strange to listen to people just into jail explain how the war would be won. I recall leaving the prison in 1992 and listening to them still arguing that there would be no ceasefire when it seemed obvious that there would be. Yet, it is the view they claimed to hold. Out in early 1993 talking to young volunteers they seemed convinced that the war would be won. I found it hard to take in. Even when they were backing the peace process they were claiming it would lead to a Brit withdrawal otherwise the IRA would go back to war. Strange, I know.
Williams was in the IRA and involved in that operation not long after the launch of the S Campaign which the IRA leadership certainly thought was a serious effort to get the Brits to withdraw. Williams’ own comment ‘The road for freedom is paved with suffering, hardships and torture, carry on my gallant and brave comrades until that certain day’ suggest he believed in more than being in the IRA for the sake of resisting. The shooting of the cop in 1942 was an event that overtook them. But in general I am not aware of anything that would lead me to believe that he did not think the IRA was going to fail in its efforts to put the Brits out and bring about that certain day.
Larry,
O’Leary is not behind the door but is he right about anything. Other than the inefficient use of resources does he say anything agreeable? The greed driven society he opts for, disguised as efficiency, will simply widen the gap. If we privatise the health service and use insurance, how long do you think it will be before the likes of him kick up about the government paying the insurance for the poor? He is into union bashing. Work in a place without a union and watch what get driven down and up, wages and profit in that order.
Larry
ReplyDeleteI think you're missing my point. To be fair, I haven't mentioned 1798, Tone, Connolly or 1916, that was your hypothesis.
I think what may move seemingly compassionate human beings, to resort to political violence, can't simply be demonised and brushed aside, as you attempt to do, or dismissed as anything other than what has went before. This is my point. As out of touch as political violence may or may not be in today's context, nevertheless the fact that it is indeed political, is a reality I am able to accept.
If it is true what AM points out, that the only Republicans it would seem, who didn't realise that the war could not be won, were those young people engaged in it, why are those still engaged in armed actions, just a few years later, any less deicated in your eyes.
You make many logical points most obvious, but a backward glance over human history if I dare, without again being expelled from 2011, would suggest that logic is not always foremost in the minds of our species, with regards to principles or the inevitability of resulting political conflict.
Ruairi Joseph,
ReplyDeletethere were enough old ones who insisted it could be won as well and who would get angry if it was suggested otherwise. But there were people to be found among the older lot who did believe it could not be won whereas all the younger element coming in seemed to think it was a foregone conclusion. That was how I saw the spread at the time
Ruairi
ReplyDeleteJust trying to stimulate and feel-out the debate. A weakened, fraction of a provo re-run isn't much use to anyone. Are any lessons ever learned? Regardless of those involved not being criminals, what else is relevant?
A.M.
Only threw in the O'Leary article as a stimulus, in 'todays' world. You gave a political response, no one else did. Is that indicative of republicanism's dilema?
Is it the case that violence was necessary in 1798, and it is therefore necessary today, is that the rationale?
Emmet said himself, the people were not agitating for freedom and a republic, they were agitating for a resolution of their grievances; land, and the discriminatory and exclusion practices of the Ascendancy and London administrations. The Brits failure do deal with it effectively and early intensified the anger. The Brits seem to have learned something in relation to that. Even if they are still messing in other countries business.
Dissidents are seen today as hell bent on trouble-making. Up to them to alter the perception, they are not too good at that or their 'war' so far.
Tain Bo
'You post here perpetuating the subject(s) regarding Irish republicanism so why make a statement that you participate in?'
Debate, interest are my answer. My observation is that like monarchy, republicanism is outdated in Ireland. In the physical force tradition of our history. Not relevant. DEAD AS HECHTAR. Just my own prediction, as I don't see any one or any group salvaging it. Nor do I see a population craving it, SF is close enough for the majority, it meets their safe, careful modern needs.
There is also a serious lack of grievances for a modern day Emmet to feed off. Attempts to manufacture them, unimaginatively or otherwise, isn't cutting it.
In my own, personal opinion. Happy to be corrected.
AM
ReplyDelete'The death of Irish republicanism'
Think I prefer the title...
'The Attempted Murder of Irish Republicanism That Was Left For Dead by Some Hairy c**t and His Mate- Now in a Vegetative State Who the Doctors Say Might Just Pull Through'
Defiantly give that a read.
Talking of graffiti and 'place' being appropriate'
ReplyDelete'The Attempted Murder of Irish Republicanism That Was Left For Dead by Some Hairy c**t and His Mate- Now in a Vegetative State Who the Doctors Say Might Just Pull Through'
GET THAT ON A WALL AT STORMONT.
Larry, Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI am going to walk away from this one.
I think the term is letting go with love.
The fact remains that the IRSP is still here, organised on a 32 county basis.
We are stll here, still relevant and we are getting stronger.
What other republicans and republican groups do and think is their own business.
Rory
Larry,
ReplyDelete‘Emmet said himself, the people were not agitating for freedom and a republic, they were agitating for a resolution of their grievances’
Have you read the Tommy McKearney book? He makes a similar argument. It is a very good book. Traditional republicanism is a standalone phenomenon. It ebbs and flows in response to the mood generated by the grievances. What sustains it is its own culture rather than what takes place around it to which it often seems impervious.
The alternative to SF was always something Left. But SF never fitted the bill. Even today they don’t. For certain the party leadership will shaft socialism every bit as quickly as they shafted republicanism. If you look at the North they already have.
A.M.
ReplyDelete'Have you read the Tommy McKearney book? He makes a similar argument. It is a very good book. Traditional republicanism is a standalone phenomenon. It ebbs and flows in response to the mood generated by the grievances. What sustains it is its own culture rather than what takes place around it to which it often seems impervious'.
Think republicanism/the left is in a very lonely place just now.
Rory
you don't have an enemy here. Just trying to bellows the debate a tad.
OH...what's the title of Tommy's book?
ReplyDeleteThe Provisional IRA: From Insurrection to Parliament
ReplyDeleteRory u don't walk away Just stand your ground as you have. dont agree with all of what you state but this is uncensored blog (a rarity non censorship these days)
ReplyDeleteThe word traitor is aptly used in what you wrote here and i agree with it all.
'They are traitors. They betrayed Bobby Sands and the blanketmen, they betrayed the heros of the armed struggle of the 70s, 80s and 90s and the dead generations behind them.'
Some may say it be too emotive and living in the past to state that but it is the truth. To those who want to shape a better future - well the future is always built on the past so the past is always living with us in the present... hence it stands what you wrote. Stands like a terrible monument reminding all and sundry the cost and for what... The great thing about being old is you really dont give a flying f..k anymore about taking care with what you state to appease others/not rock the boat. Well the boat is sinking and when the boat is sinking it dont matter who be in it there has to be cohesiveness... I think though the boat has sunk to unprecedented depths and apathy has won.
Saint?MaryHedgehog, Larry,
ReplyDeleteI'm not walking away from the blog altogether. This blog is a valuable asset. One of the very few places I know where one kind find serious and intelligent discussion about the state of the republican movement across a broad spectrum of opinion.
It is just that having stated my case on this subject I don't really see the need to repeat myself.
Regards,
Rory