The loss of his only daughter is not the sole bereavement Mickey Harte has faced in recent times. In a three month period two brothers also died. Not easy to carry that amount of loss around. He does it better than I ever could.
As a columnist Mickey Harte is aware that his views publicly expressed will invite public comment in turn. In that sense it is not insensitive to his situation to take up some of the opinions that he has expressed and air reservations about them. How he finds the solace he deserves is a matter for him. I would not seek to deny him peace of mind from whatever source.
That said, I remain puzzled by some of the views he has made public. While mindful that there is no one size fits all approach to grief and that loss of a loved one has to be rationalised in a way that makes the burden somewhat more bearable, I find his thinking incomprehensible. I grudge him not but it certainly would not work for me.
Mickey Harte has a strong belief in the Christian god. He feels that his daughter’s death no matter how unforgivable is part of "God's bigger plan".'
If we attempt to put human logic on this awful event, then there are no answers … Yet, if we view this on a spiritual plane, the evidence is already abundant that Michaela is very much what she would have described herself as ’God’s bigger plan’. During her short but fruitful life, she used this logic to encourage me when all-important football results didn’t go my way.
This plan has not only robbed him of the daughter he cherished and loved, leaving him heartbroken, but it also made murderers of a number of Mauritians who never asked to be part of god’s plan. If it was god’s plan they had no say in the matter which tends to limit their culpability.
There are answers to the death of Michaela Harte that require no input from the 2870 odd gods humans have invented since their emergence 200,000 years ago. She was brutally killed by people who could have chosen to let her live but opted not to. With god’s plan they had no choice. How does one work against and upset the plan of an omnipotent god? And if they had no choice they can not be accountable and should be freed. The logic can even be extended that if it was god’s plan the killers were only carrying out the work of god.
I simply cannot buy into any of that. I admire Mickey Harte for his fortitude in facing what he has. But there is no way I can intellectually accept his religious logic.
I am happy not to endorse the Christian god. It is a frightening entity which if armed with the omnipotence ascribed to it, can only strike terror into the being. People must fear rather than respect this self-absorbed entity. That such a being could exist is not a comforting thought for those who have to face it at the end of their days. Imagine going home to that a few indulgences short of the requisite total.
AM,
ReplyDeleteI think you have a bit of an obsession!
Only with you John!
ReplyDeleteI also admire Mickey Harte's fortitude in facing serious blows in recent years and accept that he takes comfort from his religious views but that goes not make his views correct.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe in any of the gods and would view with distaste a being which would use murder, singular in the Harte case, or by the millions in other cases, as part of his/her/its plan.
If even football results are part of this entity's plan then what is the point of football? the result is down to some sky being rather than mere mortal footballers. This murder arranging, car crash causing god would be a seriously disturbed being with a sadistic nature causing it to toy with the lives of its own creation. what a shit he/she/it would be to do that while saying 'I love you' at the same time.
Anyone have a chance to catch the David Cameron "victory" speech at Stormont? Delightful to watch the Sinn Fein delegation squirm. They looked about as comfortable as AM at an Opus Dei convention. John McGirr would have looked more at ease at last week's atheist convention in Dublin. Nuala Perry would have looked less eager to flee the room at a Danny Morrison book launch in the Culturlann. It was just fantastic.
ReplyDelete"People must fear rather than respect this self-absorbed entity."
ReplyDeleteMy sentiments exactly, Anthony. Either God does not exist or he is a colossal prick. I shudder to think what would become of the majority of mankind if John McGirr were right.
God's plan-
ReplyDeleteCreate a pile of assholes in your own image [ us ]
Create a planet- call it something simple like earth-
Let the humans do want they want- go forth and multiply etc -etc
when their lives are over the humans are sent to other planets-
[ heven- hell and that other one ]
for what-ever reason- why God will tell us then-
Mackers,
ReplyDeletesurely it has to be what gets you through!
I know people who have conquered insurmountable objects through personal courage and unfaltering belief in God.
Having said that, I'm totally with you on this one Mackers, had that been my son I would not be so forgiving of the master of some great plan.
Nuala,
ReplyDelete'surely it has to be what gets you through!'
Whatever it takes to cope in those circumstances.
I am merely struck by the strange belief.
Mackers,
ReplyDeleteIt is not a 'strange belief'. I know you do not equate yourself with that type of thinking, but I have heard Micky Harte's sentiments expressed so often by people going through unimaginable grief.
While I think their belief and sheer unquestionable faith is commendable.
I really don't believe God could or would take the credit for the horrors humankind visit on each other.
Not to make light of the topic, could I just ask believers and non-believers alike to spare a thought for us people in Clonard during the nine day Novena night week.
Every year we have to brace ourselves for the thousands of Catholics and non-Catholics who descend on our area.
Talk about 'The Night of the Living Dead'. These people have to be seen to be believed.
They appear almost zombie like, nothing matters but their quest to get the best seat in the monastary.
They block our roads, park almost inside our homes, many are rude and downright hostile. Christianity takes a backseat as they elbow and push aside anything or anyone that gets in their way.
If Dawkins really wnats to expose the dangers of crossing Chritianity, he should try spending the nine days in Clonard, it would prove quite a revelation.
@ Fionnuala yes it be true that with faith in a Higher Power one can draw incredible strength and endurance... Evidenced in all spiritual paths. An atheist would see this as MAGICAL THINKING utilized as salve for the wounds of life to propel one forward... I have to say that it how I live – hanging on to God but questioning why over and over re tragedies etc... It is exhausting so in the end I accepted I DON’T t u/stand it all, DEEPLY DESPISE church constructs of all sorts but believe in God despite this... Spirit is stronger than logic and flesh and disasters... Re the Clonard gathering... hehe NB You should utilise the hordes being there and SELL them something like: CLONARD CURE ALL BALM– just stuff Vaseline in brightly colored little containers & sell ‘em for big bucks... Ensure you put a little label with each jar stating it is only available here right now & make up a saint story for the balm (ie) Saint MeanderingSoul who cured everything from chilblains to lack of faith.
ReplyDelete@ Anthony What he shared makes sense to me = he be speaking from a deep seated belief in God and clearly states he cannot make logic of the immense tragedy and horrific way his daughter died & also loss of other family... It is for an atheist strange I guess to read such statements because an atheist rejects any concept or notion of a spiritual realm or reality. This renders his statements about grappling with huge loss/suffering yet trusting God as strange... He clearly is wrestling with it all but chooses to place his faith/hope/draw courage in the great I AM even when no whys or wherefores or logic or answers are available in this world... I remember reading his statement ages ago and felt so sad for him, the family etc... A hell of hells to experience and walk through this life with...
The cement holding everything together for an atheist is rational thinking and logic whereas for an individual with belief in God the cement is faith/trust in God irrespective of the suffering & horror that does not make sense... Not an easy path to walk. I hold respect for him.
@John McGiir I now declare you: THE INTRACTABLE POPE OF THE PENSIVE QUILL. Here to rile us all up with antiquated Catholic doctrine & give us flashbacks. Reminds me (& maybe others) of my miserable childhood suffocating in Rosary beads, stations of the cross, neurotic petitions to saints for everything from losing the housekeys to losing the plot, Saint Christopher medals, scapulas, the alcoholic priest for dinner on Sundays, everything was SIN even having genitals was somehow SIN, nuns with faces that would crack a walnut etc ad infinitum. O and I must add those jack chick tract thingos i read aeons ago... NB They be too SECTARIAN in nature for my liking but there is also truth in some of the material. No God believer Proddie should ever take the stance their convictions spiritually clear them of wrong doing or atrocities or puts them on superior plane. It riles me that you think you have some right though to agonise like all Catholics are SO persecuted number being played here. You may like to expand your research re. the role the Vatican had outside of Ireland - like VietNam and Catholicism before cia popped off Pres Diem... Buddhists were severely persecuted by Catholicism – Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc who self immolated. His note he left asked for equality for all religious convictions, freedom to believe in what one believes... And take a peak at the Carribean – no one hates the Vatican more methinks than the cult sect - Bobo Shanti Gee i wonder why... They actually have a song where they play special drums called Pope Smashers and chant fire fire fyah 4 the Vatican - snappy wee chant i must say... Haile Selassie ain't God else i would join ‘em and sing that chant the loudest. NB Religion overall is a TOTAL bummer as it automatically causes divides, confuses and creates angst... The goal is freedom NOT more shackles. God is NOT Repeat NOT Religion. Put that in your Pope and smoke it!
Saint?MaryHedgehog,
ReplyDelete‘@John McGiir I now declare you: THE INTRACTABLE POPE OF THE PENSIVE QUILL.’
Thank you. Here are some of my notes for my (our) first encyclical.
‘…Rosary beads, stations of the cross, … petitions to saints for everything from losing the housekeys to losing the plot, Saint Christopher medals, scapulas…’
All good things.
‘It riles me that you think you have some right though to agonise like all Catholics are SO persecuted number being played here.’
So am I not entitled to object to the desecration of the Blessed Sacrament? Is free speech here limited to irreligious views?
Thanks for your notes on the evils of Vatican foreign policy. As such things are not matters of faith or morals it is quite plausible that they will have got a lot wrong in the past as they are in the present. I don’t look to Rome, especially modernist Rome, for my politics, but only for what I should believe and how I should act.
‘…God is NOT Repeat NOT Religion.’
No. Religion regulates the duties of mankind (womankind or personkind) to his (her, or its) Creator. As such every person on earth has a duty to render thanks to God. That is what infuriates so many atheists that people in all places and all times have seen this duty and attempted to fulfil their obligations in this regard.
Of course, should it be true, and I believe it is, that God has revealed one true religion, (the Catholic Church), then that is the one we follow. I am happy to follow that with Mickey Harte, our patriotic martyrs of 1916 and so many throughout the world.
Whilst I do not share my mother's belief in God, I would not want to deny her whatever comfort she derives from practicing her religion in the later years of her life.
ReplyDeleteHaving raised a large family and lossed her husband of 40 years, I respect her right to belive in miracles, intercesion through pray, immaculate conception, heaven and hell, and whatever else she believes.
My mother is a good person and would never wish harm on anyone for any reason. To see some one disrespect her religious beliefs and peactices would, I know, offened her deeply.
Why would I want to to that? And if we accept the universality of motherhood then why would any one want to do that?
I prefer to personalise this because it goes to the heart of the matter which for me is one of showing respect.
John McGirr,
ReplyDelete'Religion regulates the duties of mankind (womankind or personkind)
to his (her, or its) Creator.'
It is what it might like to do but it lacks the authority to do so. Moreover as there are no duties other than what religion tells us then there is absolutely no reason to listen to religion.
'every person on earth has a duty to render thanks to God.'
Bollix. Thanks for famine war, genocide, child raping priests. Any person who feels inclined to has an inalienable right to say 'bollix to god.'
'I am happy to follow that with Mickey Harte, our patriotic martyrs of 1916 and so many throughout the world.'
And all the while hoping poor Roger Casement is burning in hell!
Alec,
ReplyDeleteof course you respect her right to believe in miracles or whatever she wants. But that cannot mean you respect the belief that she holds.
'To see some one disrespect her religious beliefs and practices would, I know, offend her deeply.'
True but you are under no obligation to respect her views, just her right to hold them. That seems so self evident that it requires no explanation. Say she thought SF was a great party - you would only respect her right to hold the view, not respect the view held.
By and large we don't want to offend our mothers. I know had mine believed at the time she died I would not have been in telling her it was all rubbish. Not long before she died she spoke with me about it and I told her she had nothing to worry about, there was nothing there. She crossed the finishing line without any religion. I have admired her for having The God Delusion read to her as she reached the end. By that point she could no longer read. And if people do not wish to respect her opinion that's fine by me. But they should respect her right to hold it. That is what respect is.
Respecting her right to hold religious beliefs but not respecting the beliefs, em?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure she would appreciate that argument, to be honest.
Alec,
ReplyDeleteshe might well not. But she would only be like the bulk of us who want our opinions respected. But it is something we have no right to. We can only ask others to respect our right to hold an opinion not the opinion we hold. The distinction has long been clear in my mind.
Taking it away form the context of your mother, quite often when people ask for respect they want submission. They cannot respect your right not to respect their opinion and want you to submit to respect for their opinion.
AM,
ReplyDelete'And all the while hoping poor Roger Casement is burning in hell!'
I wish eternal damnation on no-one, least of all a great Irish patriot like Roger Casement who died a martyr for his country and a Catholic and is surely now in Heaven.
In his last letter he wrote:
“….If I die tomorrow, bury me in Ireland, and I shall die in the Catholic Faith, for I accept it full now. It tells me what my heart sought long – but I saw it in the faces of the Irish. Now I know what it was I loved in them – the chivalry of Christ speaking through human eyes. It is from that source all lovable things come, for Christ was the first Knight.
And now good-bye. I still write with hope – hope that God will be with me to the end….
And if I die, as I think is fated, tomorrow morning, I shall die with my sins forgiven and God’s pardon on my soul, and I shall be with many brave and good men…..”
John McGirr,
ReplyDeleteso a gay can be a good Catholic and get into heaven?
'I wish eternal damnation on no-one.'
But you feel god has a right to send gays there and you won't challenge god who is always right.
'Roger Casement who died a martyr for his country and a Catholic and is surely now in Heaven.'
But if he died a gay how would he get into heaven? How can you be so sure he is there? Have you not been telling us the hell is the place gays go to or should. And if you defend him are you, by your very own logic, not leaving yourself open to the charge of being a degenerate? And are we to presume that all gays are now in heaven or is god a bit of a racist and just makes a special allowance for Irish gays?
In the same letter Roger Casement wrote:
ReplyDelete"The great outpuring of love and goodness on me is the greatest proof of God's love for sinful men.
God gave me into this captivity and death, and I kiss the Divine Hand that leads me to the grave..."
He confessed his sins, received absolution and a plenary indulgence and his last words were:
"Into Thy hands, O Lord, I commend my spirit. Lord Jesu, receive my soul."
I have no knowledge of his sins, they are dead with him.
John McGirr
ReplyDeletedid he say his homosexuality was a sin? Do you hold the view that Roger Casement was a malign homosexual or had malign homosexual views? If not what would make his homosexual views benign and the priest you called a degenerate malign? Answers on the blog, evasions on a postcard to heaven.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘did he say his homosexuality was a sin?’
I am not sure that homosexuality per se is a sin, although to act upon it is. I have no idea of Casement’s sins, but as he converted to Catholicism in gaol, and was instructed, he would have had to confess all of his grave sins
‘Do you hold the view that Roger Casement was a malign homosexual or had malign homosexual views?’
I have no idea. It is possible he did, but if he did he abjured them as a condition for forgiveness.
‘If not what would make his homosexual views benign and the priest you called a degenerate malign?’
If Casement had acted in a homosexual way, he renounced it to his confessor. See the words I posted above. We have the testimony of his confessor to say that he made a good confession.
‘Answers on the blog, evasions on a postcard to heaven.’
See above.
AM,
ReplyDelete'I am not sure that homosexuality per se is a sin, although to act upon it is.'
Why then is defence of homosexuals degenerate?
'I have no idea of Casement’s sins, but as he converted to Catholicism in gaol, and was instructed, he would have had to confess all of his grave sins.'
You are right - you have no idea of his sins nor have you any idea of what he confessed.
He was a practicing homosexual. How was it not malign?
'but if he did he abjured them as a condition for forgiveness.'
But you have no idea about this whatsoever.
‘If not what would make his homosexual views benign and the priest you called a degenerate malign?’
'If Casement had acted in a homosexual way...'
He did. His choice; nothing wrong with it.
'he renounced it to his confessor.'
You have no idea if he did.
'We have the testimony of his confessor to say that he made a good confession.'
Means absolutely nothing unless we know what was confessed.
Was he a malign homosexual?
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteRoger Casement was as gay as our lord- Mickey harte carried a p.s.n.i members coffin- you support them both as is your right-
is this the start of your mellow process-
AM,
ReplyDelete‘Why then is defence of homosexuals degenerate?’
A person could have homosexual tendencies, fight against them and be a saint. Another person can give in and do as he pleases and be a sinner. Similarly with adulterous thoughts, you can dismiss them or give in.
‘You are right - you have no idea of his sins nor have you any idea of what he confessed.’
I do know that he received ample instruction and was adamant his one desire was to die as a faithful Catholic. I can only assume that he was not lying. If we cannot accept his words and those of the priest who instructed him and heard his confession then why should we ever accept anyone’s word. I am morally certain based on these things that he would have confessed this. Could he have fooled the priests, me, you, of course he could. Anything I have said is based on the assumption that his last words and days were truthful. I don’t imagine many people will make a farce of such things in their dying moments. If he did, one thing is sure, he would not have fooled God.
'Was he a malign homosexual?'
How many times are you going to ask me that. You are beginning to sound like Jeremy Paxman. I will answer it again. When you say ‘malign homosexual’ I assume you mean did he give in to homosexual acts or desires. If that is what you mean, I can only answer that I don’t know. If he did, and it was not a charge invented to discredit him, then he was received into the Catholic Church in gaol, and was thoroughly instructed and confessed all the sins of his life.
michaelhenry
ReplyDeleteRoger Casement was as gay as our lord-
I cannot fathom why you would think Our Lord is 'gay'.
'Mickey harte carried a p.s.n.i members coffin-'
Which he was wrong to do.
'you support them both as is your right-'
I share Mickey Harte's religion, but I am a sinner not a Shinner!
'is this the start of your mellow process-'
Not a chance of it!
the jesus man, if he really existed, was 33 years old which would have been well into middle age in those days yet he was not married and there are no reports of him showing any interest in women or desiring to fulfill the command to 'increase and multiply' so it seems as if he may well have been a gay man all right. he spent most of his time with other men too, if, that is, he existed at all.
ReplyDeleteJohn McGirr-
ReplyDelete" I cannot fathom why you would think our lord is gay "
God knows john- we were made in his/ her image- but who knows what else God shared with us-
maybe he/ she swung both ways, maybe sex
does not matter to the creator- i think the best gift he / she give us was choice-
You say you are a sinner not a shinner- are you saying that r.s.f are not shinners- notice a feud between republican s.f and the real s.f- bit like two hookers fighting over a condom-
You dont need any advice john- but i like reading your comments- never change-
That Jesus might have been gay has long been a consideration of mine. Not that I ever considered it that much. There are plenty of gay men so one more is hardly going to make a lot of difference. Jim outlines a realistic scenario. Michaelhenry presents a fair case. It simply does not matter whether he was or was not.
ReplyDeleteCan't understand why Mickey Harte was wrong to carry a PSNI member's coffin. It is his business whose coffin's he carries. Gerry Adams faced this type of nonsense when he carried IRA volunteer's coffins. It all starts to sound like the Orange Order kicking up about Protestants attending funeral masses for Catholics.
I recall being criticised for attending Denis Faul's funeral. (not a great deal of criticism to be fair.' Nobody's business.
'A person could have homosexual tendencies, fight against them and be a saint. Another person can give in and do as he pleases and be a sinner.'
ReplyDeleteBut this explains nothing as to why the person defending the homosexual is a degenerate but not the homosexual. You are seriously sounding like one of those cops out of the Third Policeman that Alfie prompted me to read. I anticipate you taking me on a discourse about bicycles next!
'I do know that he received ample instruction and was adamant his one
desire was to die as a faithful Catholic. I can only assume that he was not lying.'
Many homosexuals I presume die as faithful Catholics without renouncing their homosexuality, seeing it as a gift from god.
You have told us absolutely nothing about his attitude to homosexuality. You might as well assume he denounced the Rising in his confession in order to die a faithful Catholic.
My view for what it is worth is this. Casement was a very intelligent man of deep conviction. He more impresses me for the work he did in the Congo than for what he did in Ireland. I don't believe he lived a lifestyle that he regarded as wrong and sinful and about which he had to confess to some priest before he died.
'I am morally certain based on these things that he would have confessed this.'
You cannot be any more morally certain than I can be of my own take.
It is not about him fooling the priest, it is about his attitude to his gay lifestyle.
'Anything I have said is based on the assumption that his last words and days were truthful.'
But you don't know what he said. If he did not regard his lifestyle as sinful why confess it?
'one thing is sure, he would not have fooled God.'
Religious rubbish.
'Was he a malign homosexual?'
Jeremy Paxman is reputed to have said that he sits looking at a politician he is interviewing and thinks 'why is this lying bastard sitting here lying to me?'
AM,
ReplyDeleteAs the phraze 'malign homosexual' is something you are going to rant on about endlessly, could you possibly define it, so that I know what you mean and can hopefully answer you more clearly?
'But this explains nothing as to why the person defending the homosexual is a degenerate but not the homosexual'
I do not recall having said that a practicing homosexual is not degenerate. The word originally came in because of the priest encouraging his peers to engage in sodomy. We all know what such things have led to.
michaelhenry,
Have you ever considered becoming a Catholic?
John McGirr,
ReplyDeleteallow me to cite you.
'Unfortunately priests like him have spread their malign homosexual views to large numbers with the abusive results that we have all seen.'
So rather than me defining what you meant why don't you define what you meant? It is hardly a rant when I am only seeking a straight answer which you have done everything to avoid providing. It is like asking a SF politician a question about the peace process. But keep going as you are. I am sure whoever is reading your responses will be arriving at a certain judgment.
'I do not recall having said that a practicing homosexual is not degenerate. The word originally came in because of the priest encouraging his peers to engage in sodomy. We all know what such things have led to.'
Allow me to cite you again as part of an earlier exchange. M,
AM: 'so gays are pretty degenerate?
JM: 'I said those who condoned or supported them were. To see people doing something that would harm them and to encourage them to continue is, in my view, degenerate.'
The implication seems clear to the point of being almost explicit.
If Roger Casement was a practicing homosexual was he degenerate? A simple yes or no will suffice.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteI was brought up a catholic, but i have always asked Questions- read up- and tried to find out all i could about being a catholic- about other religions- about other ways of life- i dont live my life by what some authors wrote about God 100s of years after christ was killed and rose- i believe in God but i will never believe those leaders of religion who would use fear as their weapon- they are anti God-
I wonder do other churches, Islam, for instance, lay claim to as many 'death bed conversions or repentances' as does Catholicism? It's strange how the vast majority of these have no witnesses apart from, wait for it, a Catholic priest. Priests would never lie, of course.
ReplyDeleteMichaelhenry,
ReplyDeletewell put.
Jim,
priests are honest guys. And mice catch cats.
AM,
ReplyDelete‘allow me to cite you.’
“'Unfortunately priests like him have spread their malign homosexual views to large numbers with the abusive results that we have all seen.'”
But ‘malign homosexual views’ are objects. You are transferring what I said about things onto people.
‘So rather than me defining what you meant why don't you define what you meant?’
Well for ‘malign’ shall se say ‘evil’ or ‘harmful’? I meant that the priest was spreading evil or harmful homosexual views. You then transferred this into a category of person and that is why I had no clue what you meant. I would not refer to a homosexual as malign, evil or harmful, but I would refer to the actions of a practising homosexual as being those things.
‘It is hardly a rant when I am only seeking a straight answer which you have done everything to avoid providing.’
Well have you got your straight answer yet?
‘It is like asking a SF politician a question about the peace process. But keep going as you are. I am sure whoever is reading your responses will be arriving at a certain judgment.’
It may well be that no-one else is reading this, but if they are they will know that you, intentionally or not, misconstrued what I said about ‘VIEWS’ to ‘PERSONS’. It made perfect sense with views, but not when transferred to persons.
“'I do not recall having said that a practicing homosexual is not degenerate. The word originally came in because of the priest encouraging his peers to engage in sodomy. We all know what such things have led to.'”
‘Allow me to cite you again as part of an earlier exchange. M,’
‘AM: 'so gays are pretty degenerate?’
“JM: 'I said those who condoned or supported them were. To see people doing something that would harm them and to encourage them to continue is, in my view, degenerate.'”
Can’t see me denying it there. For the record, I do think that practising homosexuals are objectively degenerate, but may not be fully responsible on a subjective basis. I just didn’t mention it above as my focus was always on the priest about whom I had first used the description that you have taken up for a number of weeks.
‘The implication seems clear to the point of being almost explicit.’
Not so, as I explain above.
If Roger Casement was a practicing homosexual was he degenerate? A simple yes or no will suffice.
If he was, then YES, but God had mercy on him and he died a repentant sinner.
Roger Casement, pray for us.
Jim,
ReplyDeleteWe have Roger Casement's own testimony of his conversion.
In his last letter he wrote:
“….If I die tomorrow, bury me in Ireland, and I shall die in the Catholic Faith, for I accept it fully now....
And now good-bye. I still write with hope – hope that God will be with me to the end….
And if I die, as I think is fated, tomorrow morning, I shall die with my sins forgiven and God’s pardon on my soul, and I shall be with many brave and good men…..”
michaelhenry,
Which leaders of religion are 'anti-God'?
If you don't accept what was written hundreds of years after Christ do you believe in the Bible alone?
Are you a protestant? (Not that it matters, it is just I have put my cards on the table and you seem to be backing different sides to the extent that I am confused.)
John McGirr,
ReplyDelete‘But ‘malign homosexual views’ are objects. You are transferring what I
said about things onto people.’
The distinction seems semantic. If you are guilty of malign homosexual acts then it would follow that you are malign. If you are guilty of rape then it would follow that you are a rapist.
‘Well for ‘malign’ shall se say ‘evil’ or ‘harmful’? I meant that the
priest was spreading evil or harmful homosexual views.’
The view is a reflection of the action. If the action is not evil how can the view defending it be evil?
‘I would not refer to a homosexual as malign, evil or harmful, but I would refer to the actions of a practising homosexual
as being those things.’
Which is what we have been talking about in the case of Roger Casement.
‘Well have you got your straight answer yet?
Still extracting it.
‘It may well be that no-one else is reading this, but if they are they
will know that you, intentionally or not, misconstrued what I said
about ‘VIEWS’ to ‘PERSONS’. It made perfect sense with views, but not
when transferred to persons.’
We will let them be the judge of that.
‘For the record, I do think that practising homosexuals are objectively degenerate, but may not be fully
responsible on a subjective basis. I just didn’t mention it above as my focus was always on the priest about whom I had first used the description that you have taken up for a number of weeks.’
For some reason I have difficulty buying into that.
‘The implication seems clear to the point of being almost explicit.’
At last, an admission, Roger Casement was a degenerate if he was a practicing homosexual.
That is where we differ. I believe he was a practicing homosexual but I don’t believe he was a degenerate. He was a human rights activist who carried out sterling work on behalf of abused people. Today he might have been at the forefront of a campaign to have the pope jailed.
‘Roger Casement, pray for us.’
But he won’t because he can’t.
I would imagine that’s about as far as this discussion will run.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteWhich leaders of religion are anti-God
there have been many through the century's- it was religion leaders
which helped the romans execute christ-
But was christ a martyr given that he knew that he would rise again 3 days later- a martyr to me is someone who gives everything for what they believe in-
I was at mass this morning so i am still a catholic- but surly it is my right to Question and give my own views like yourself- if i was a protestant- a jew or muslim i would say so-
matthew-mark-luke and john- did they write any other books.
AM,
ReplyDelete'I would imagine that’s about as far as this discussion will run.'
Thank God for that, (I imagine a lot of your readers are breathing a sigh of relief!)
As it is your Blog, I shall not respond to your last post for fear of eliciting another reply.
In any case I think it is well thrashed out.
John McGirr,
ReplyDeleteyou can have the last word if you wish.
michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘there have been many through the century's- it was religion leaders which helped the romans execute christ’-
The Jews, yes. The Deicide people.
‘But was christ a martyr given that he knew that he would rise again 3 days later- a martyr to me is someone who gives everything for what they believe in’-
A martyr is someone who suffers persecution and usually death to witness to a truth. That fits Christ. What did He not give?
‘I was at mass this morning so i am still a catholic’-
Not sure that that necessarily follows. PZ Myers obtains his consecrated Hosts from people who go to Mass.
‘but surly it is my right to Question and give my own views like yourself’
A Catholic has to accept the teachings of the Church. Those who prefer to elevate their own opinions are known as heretics.
‘matthew-mark-luke and john- did they write any other books.’
Luke did. The Acts of the Apostles. But we only know what books make up the New Testament through a judgement of the Catholic Church made hundreds of years later. That is why you didn’t include Barnabas, Peter or Judas in your list.
No! I will have the last word!
ReplyDelete@ John McGirr If you wanted to distinguish yourself as a follower of a Religion you have done that. If you intended to distinguish yourself as a defender of the Vatican aka Catholicism and manmade doctrines you certainly have achieved that. Including defending a host of water and flour as that being actually made into flesh and blood like some mystical black magic number. I have always found it amusing even as a kid dragged off to Mass that the Monstrance is called what it is. Monstrous lie Monstrance perpetrated on us naive Catholics... The parallels with pagan witchcraft rituals are clearly apparent... The Christ is Spirit John not flour & water with a priests flair to turn it into flesh/blood. Suggest you read the Bible scriptures not adore doctrine... And screw the council of Trent - it was chock fulla evil sods...
What you have clearly imo failed to do is identify as a follower of Jesus Christ & His teachings. And it shows... NB Not once did Jesus support the constructs of religious organisations. Who called the Pharisees 'white washed graves' & 'Pharisees...burdening the poor with burdens (demands, tithes, customs, DOCTRINES)' It was Jesus -the ultimate dissident who unpacked the truth in the face of religious claptrap... It earnt him death.
I doubt when you are croaking it on your deathbed you will be quoting in Latin Catholic dogma though indeed given what you say here it may be a possibility... Do you really believe the Papa in his earthly kingdom gives a rats arse about Ireland, her people or justice? Think hard on that for the evidence is in your face what the answer is.
@ the atheists... It is gobsmacking to me that atheists can totally believe this life is all there is... If i believed that I would not bother with a thing. Why bother when it all gets sucked into a meaningless vortex of nothingness ultimately... Why fight for Justice, love family and others, work and so forth if it is all futility. For to be an atheist means there is no Ultimate Judgement but just an endless regurgitation of humanity on a pointless course whilst straining to refine mankind from Neantherthal ways into intellectual giants. Nihilistic methinks and perhaps explains high suicide rates of young ones worldwide who absorb that mentality/belief. The relief of letting go of belief in any God or fighting belief in any spiritual reality results in what? It may clear the religious claptrap clutter, sharpen insights into atrocities and games by religions but what else does it acheive? I would always acknowledge how a significant amount of atheists fought/do fight for truth and justice in areas like abuse of minors by clergy whilst so called believers did nought... But atheism dictates humanity is just a disposable bag of maggots. Hence I think it is as ludricious as what atheists think a belief in God is. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see.
Sin-e.
John McGirr-
ReplyDeleteI can understand why some would think of Jesus as a martyr- but he survived 40 days and nights in a desert- he was very special- there were cures and miracles- Jesus raised the dead including himself-
all this meant that he was not human- a great God- but he was not one of us- maybe he did not even feel pain, like how do you hurt a God-
The jews and romans were the deicide people of that time- God did not pick isreal out on a whim-
So i am a heretic because i ask- i dont elevate my opinion on anyone- i just say what i think are facts-
Well i can understand why judas was not included- but what was wrong with what barnabas and peter wrote- oh- i forgot- you dont Question-
Saint?MaryHedgehog,
ReplyDelete‘@ John McGirr If you wanted to distinguish yourself as a follower of a Religion you have done that.’
No interest in that. I was purely defending an outright assault on my religion, which were it directed at any other religion or group would have been called an act of hatred and shunned by right thinking men (and women).
‘If you intended to distinguish yourself as a defender of the Vatican aka Catholicism and manmade doctrines you certainly have achieved that.’
Catholic doctrines are certainly not man-made, they are the teachings of Christ.
‘Including defending a host of water and flour as that being actually made into flesh and blood like some mystical black magic number.’
Why do lapsed Catholics always hate the Blessed Eucharist?
‘I have always found it amusing even as a kid dragged off to Mass that the Monstrance is called what it is. Monstrous lie Monstrance perpetrated on us naive Catholics...’
Good play on words. I tend to think of it as derived from monstrare, ‘to show.
‘The parallels with pagan witchcraft rituals are clearly apparent...’
To you maybe, I see no such parallel. Any evidence?
‘The Christ is Spirit John not flour & water with a priests flair to turn it into flesh/blood. Suggest you read the Bible scriptures not adore doctrine...’
In St John’s Gospel, (Chapt VI) Our Lord clearly says;
“Amen, amen I say unto you: except you eat the FLESH of the Son of Man and drink His BLOOD, you shall not have life in you: he that eateth My FLESH and drinketh My BLOOD hath everlasting life,… for My FLESH is meat indeed and my blood is drink indeed: he that eateth my FLESH and drinketh My BLOOD, abideth in Me and I in him.”
This was too much for many of His followers who said;
“This saying (doctrine) is hard, and who can hear it?...”
“After this many of His disciples went back; and walked no more with Him.”
‘And screw the council of Trent - it was chock fulla evil sods...’
Tssk, tssk, is that really necessary? Any evidence on the latter assertion?
‘What you have clearly imo failed to do is identify as a follower of Jesus Christ & His teachings. And it shows...’
Pots, kettles come to mind!
I would be ashamed to use the filthy language you resort to on a public forum. Let alone the constant and unnecessary insults. Good manners and courtesy clearly do not figure in your spiritual concoction.
‘NB Not once did Jesus support the constructs of religious organisations.’
Really?
“Thou art Peter, and upon this Rock, I will build my CHURCH.”
Who called the Pharisees 'white washed graves' & 'Pharisees...burdening the poor with burdens (demands, tithes, customs, DOCTRINES)'
They are still with us. They are known as Talmudic Jews.
This is about the third time you have used the word ‘doctrine’ as if it should be equated with something evil. The word means ‘teaching’ and is used throughout the New Testament in reference to the teachings, (ie doctrines) of Christ.
‘I doubt when you are croaking it on your deathbed you will be quoting in Latin Catholic dogma though indeed given what you say here it may be a possibility...’
Call me old-fashioned but I think a degree of civility is helpful even over the Internet. But then Our Blessed Lord did say His followers would be hated by the world, so I guess it goes with the territory.
micky boy, or john, help me clear up a question that seems strange,Satan says to Jesus: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”(Matthew 4:9)So if Satan didn't own these things how could he offer them. Surley had he lied to Jesus that would have been pounced upon.
ReplyDeletemichaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘all this meant that he was not human- a great God- but he was not one of us- maybe he did not even feel pain, like how do you hurt a God’
That is an early heresy called Docetism. It is described thus in the Catholic Encyclopaedia:
“Docetism, from the Greek 'dokeo' (to seem, to appear) was the contention that Christ merely seemed to be human and only appeared to be born, to suffer, and to die. Already in New Testament times, the Gospel of John opposes Docetism, and so do Ignatius, Irenaeus, and other Fathers”
‘The jews and romans were the deicide people of that time- God did not pick isreal out on a whim’
The Romans had not been set aside by God and prepared in the way the Jews were. They were the tool used by the Jews to commit deicide.
‘So i am a heretic because i ask- i dont elevate my opinion on anyone- i just say what i think are facts’-
I don’t believe I called you a heretic, just saying that there are doctrines which Catholics are expected to adhere to, especially as they are formulated in its Creeds.
However what you have written above is heretical, ie Docetism. But you would only be formally considered a heretic if you were to have this pointed out to you by Church authorities and then deny what the Church teaches and continue to hold to that heresy. If you continue to hold that view privately you are only a material heretic, in the same way as protestants often are.
‘Well i can understand why judas was not included- but what was wrong with what barnabas and peter wrote’
The Catholic Church did not accept that they were the genuine article.
‘- oh- i forgot- you dont Question’
Nothing wrong with questioning. That is precisely the format of the old Catechisms, so sorely neglected today. The beauty of them is they give the questions and supply the answers.
fer,
ReplyDelete'micky boy, or john, help me clear up a question that seems strange,Satan says to Jesus: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”(Matthew 4:9)So if Satan didn't own these things how could he offer them. Surley had he lied to Jesus that would have been pounced upon.'
It was a lie and it was ‘pounced upon’ when Our Lord replied ‘Begone Satan!’ By invoking the name Satan, aka the Father of Lies, Our Lord is implicitly accusing him of lying. Just my take on it.
Fer-
ReplyDeleteThats a good point of yours- but with satan being the devil he could
tell a lie with a strait face- there are a few holy lies going about as well-
If God made everything- and saten being a fallen angel- then why did God create that fcuk when God knew what is future was going to be-
I have heard of felon setting but
John McGirr is heretic setting me-
@ John McGirr I am an EX Catholic definitely not a lapsed one. Lapsed implies there is hope for a return ahaha Not a chance though they will use my baptism, confirmation and so forth registration for stats proof of membership. How sickening... Big Pontificating Papa owes me bigtime as he does many, many others. Thousands of us kids now adults are entitled to a share of the Vatican gold – we paid for it in full with our childhoods. But I have never wanted the Vatican blood money – nope all I wanted is a voice to speak of what millions knew was happening to us Catholic kids and they did not nought. But that means nothing to ones like you...
ReplyDeleteYou just do some spiritual gymnastics and point at other religions with their share of atrocities and deflect. Shame you cannot exert the same passion you exhibit for defending flour and water for speaking for Justice. I can only assume you have not a clue what has gone on for decades upon decades – the most cleverly constructed pedophile ring in the world which still operates to this very day... All Hail Great Papa and his cohorts keeps it operating...
Btw I do not see enraged or offended Catholics tearing in here to support you? Perhaps because essentially no-one gives a toss anymore re Catholicism in Ireland apart from trundling off to church for religious observances or when there is a funeral. The hold on Ireland by Catholicism has ended... Pity the hold of Masonic pointyheads is still around as ever but both to me - Catholicism and Orange Order are toxic entities of brainwashing and control. Your blending of patriotism with Catholicism is not of any use other than serving up yourself romanticised notions of ancient Ireland... Our people died for a lie is the truth – a terrible, sad truth and how Britain must laugh at the devotion of self deluded, religious ones such as yourself. Such a great opportunity to perpetuate divide/conquer – keep the stronghold happening, keep the romantic notions flowing. Meanwhile back at el rancho Reality - Ireland is still a colony and republicans are incarcerated, harassed, beaten, monitored.. All the while The Pope thinks he is God and the Orange Order think they are the cutting edge Truth as they march to the beat of hate and everyone be singing the praises of St Gerry O Holy Bearded One hands dripping blood whose father porked his own child...
Novenas, Hail Marys and Our Fathers said repetitively a trillion times will never perfume that lot. Drive the Rusty Nail through the lot...
The word petros for Peter in the Greek is in the masculine gender and the word petra for the rock is in the feminine gender. Petros and petra are two distinct words in the Greek. Petros is a shifting, rolling, or insecure stone, while petra is a solid, immov¬able rock. The scripture re the Church means human beings are the church and the cornerstone (petra sold immovable stone) is The Christ. The Christ is not churches made with bricks and mortar… Christ is the Living I AM Spirit and is the mortar holding imperfect petros (us believers in Jesus as the I AM) together collectively…
Re God's Greater Plan - I struggle all the time with things that do not make sense but choose to keep believing. Perhaps just having a voice is enough for the Greater Plan.
And now common sense dictates to me Enough of this John McGirr aka the Pope of Pensive Quill.
Saint?MaryHedgehog,
ReplyDelete‘I can only assume you have not a clue what has gone on for decades upon decades – the most cleverly constructed pedophile ring in the world which still operates to this very day...
Those who have operated in this way are those who have REJECTED Catholic teaching and practice, ie they are in your camp not mine. The Catholic Church has been taken over by its enemies much in the same way as the Republican movement has been, only with more disastrous consequences. The source of this is the near total collapse of Catholicism following the Vatican Council II. That is why I do not participate in this new entity established and why we have gone back to the ‘catacombs’.
‘Btw I do not see enraged or offended Catholics tearing in here to support you? Perhaps because essentially no-one gives a toss anymore re Catholicism in Ireland apart from trundling off to church for religious observances or when there is a funeral. The hold on Ireland by Catholicism has ended...’
We are agreed on one thing. I think that is a fair analysis.
‘Your blending of patriotism with Catholicism is not of any use other than serving up yourself romanticised notions of ancient Ireland... Our people died for a lie is the truth….’
A people can barely sustain losing their language, but to lose their religion too would be a devastating blow. Is it any wonder that it is in these circumstances that resistance to British rule has all but collapsed? People don’t want to die for Ireland once they are robbed of their beliefs.
‘Meanwhile back at el rancho Reality - Ireland is still a colony and republicans are incarcerated, harassed, beaten, monitored..’
Some of whom are motivated and comforted by the very religion you despise. Take that from them and you will have a pacified, emasculated people ready to be re-incorporated into the British Commonwealth.
‘The word petros for Peter in the Greek is in the masculine gender and the word petra for the rock is in the feminine gender.’
Although of course Our Lord spoke to His Apostles in Aramaic where the word ‘kepha’ was used in both instances, as is found in the Peshitta and Old Syriac texts. When I lived in France, the protestants would argue that ‘Pierre’ and ‘pierre’ are ‘Peter’ and ‘rock’ in English, but Our Lord didn’t speak in English either; nor French, nor Latin, nor Greek, but Aramaic.
The attempt at a linguistic analysis sounds as if it comes from a high-brow Chick tract, but misses the point as I was using the quotation merely to establish that Christ was building a Church, and it clearly shows that.
@ JohnMcGirr Catacombs! ahaha Great larf! Tad dramatic John... The true refuge is in standing strong in ones mind/spirit/convictions & not fleeing the jeers/threats. Ironically you are very sectarian imo in your thinking in an inverse way... Us and them syndrome etc. Of course catholicism is done in but so what.. it be a religion not God Himself right. Latin scholar? I am not impressed. Afterall who said: 'Men's Knowledge is fools wisdom'
ReplyDeleteRE 'People don’t want to die for Ireland once they are robbed of their beliefs.'
Enough have died enough bloodshed, sorrows, lives terminated and people shattered has already been, stretching into the mist of history. People today will be killed because the anger is on authentic republicans... No glory in killing. Never was never will be...
RE: 'A people can barely sustain losing their language, but to lose their religion too would be a devastating blow. Is it any wonder that it is in these circumstances that resistance to British rule has all but collapsed?'
Everyone knows a tried/true form of genocide is suppressing a native language. However in 2011 many Irish living in Ireland do not care for their language or want to use it. That is the peoples choice in the 21st century... I note young Irish coming here in droves have no interest in it... Losing religion can benefit mental health and society in general John for religion is a form of control rather than deep real spiritual lived out convictions.
The Vatican is Babylon even to a non believer in the Christ or anything spiritual.
RE '...a pacified, emasculated people ready to be re-incorporated into the British Commonwealth.'
And that describes the bulk of Ireland right here and now as she is. There will never be peace in Ireland never imo...
Glad i never stayed permanently last time over. Old skool republicans like you entrapped in Catholicism Schism do my head in... My Irish citizenship/birthright/passport mean very little to me now & am EX Catholic. Catholicism means NOTHING. NB I have a disdain for my own people -Irish and their weakness in allowing the incarceration of republicans and oppression to continue. All those sneering ones who called us Irish living in places like Aussie or NZ plastic paddies are now licking our boots in desperation to score jobs and another country to live in. Life is very strange is it not. Vatican & EU are nutting Ireland down NWO was never a myth. It is happening before our eyes.
However you pour religiosity on all things rather than address issues sans catholic mode. Big mistake as keeps the lie alive it is a religous war etc... Roll on Armageddon but you won't be safe in a catacomb (nuclear matter goes underground John) ahahaha so do Mi5 & Mi6 cockroaches. Find somewhere else to hide.
Saint?MaryHedgehog, (Pars prima).
ReplyDelete‘@ JohnMcGirr Catacombs! ahaha Great larf! Tad dramatic John...’
I would call it an understatement. The only time I can hear Mass now is in the basement of a shop 70 miles away from home or by crossing the water. So no, not dramatic.
‘The true refuge is in standing strong in ones mind/spirit/convictions & not fleeing the jeers/threats.’
Or abandoning the One True Faith because of unworthy and unbelieving clerics.
‘Ironically you are very sectarian imo in your thinking in an inverse way...’
Calling a Catholic ‘sectarian’ is no more valid than calling the Republican Army ‘paramilitary’. A Catholic does not belong to a sect and cannot be sectarian, just as a volunteer is not working alongside a regular army and cannot be paramilitary.
‘Us and them syndrome etc.’
The world is full of such divisions. It is called reality.
‘Of course catholicism is done in but so what.. it be a religion not God Himself right.’
It be the religion of God, so don’t expect Ireland to rise while it is in denial of its creator. But don’t worry, it will be back, or Ireland is dead.
‘Latin scholar? I am not impressed.’
Greek scholar? Ditto.
‘Afterall who said: 'Men's Knowledge is fools wisdom'’
Don’t know. Who said ‘All roads lead to Rome’?
‘No glory in killing. Never was never will be...’
I mentioned dying not killing.
‘Everyone knows a tried/true form of genocide is suppressing a native language.’
And another is suppressing their religion.
‘However in 2011 many Irish living in Ireland do not care for their language or want to use it.’
Likewise their religion.
‘That is the peoples choice in the 21st century...’
Your defeatism is nauseating.
‘I note young Irish coming here in droves have no interest in it...’
Nor do the pro GFA who have abandoned their Faith and Nation here either.
‘Losing religion can benefit mental health and society in general’
I believe the surveys show the contrary.
‘… for religion is a form of control rather than deep real spiritual lived out convictions.’
A sweeping generalization without a shred of evidence.’
‘The Vatican is Babylon even to a non believer in the Christ or anything spiritual.’
Are you quoting Martin Luther or Ian Paisley on that one?
“RE '...a pacified, emasculated people ready to be re-incorporated into the British Commonwealth.'”
‘And that describes the bulk of Ireland right here and now as she is.’
Yes, and so it will remain until it resumes its Faith and its Nationhood.
‘There will never be peace in Ireland never imo...’
I disagree. There will be when people hold on to what matters rather than give it up. Those who give up are the real traitors.
‘Glad i never stayed permanently last time over.’
A sad defeatist comment.
‘Old skool republicans like you entrapped in Catholicism Schism do my head in...’
No schism in the Faith of our Fathers.
Saint?MaryHedgehog, (Pars Secunda)
ReplyDelete‘My Irish citizenship/birthright/passport mean very little to me now & am EX Catholic.’
Of course it doesn’t. You have abandoned your religion so what it isn’t much farther to go by abandoning your Nation.
‘Catholicism means NOTHING.’
That you feel the need to capitalize it would suggest otherwise.
‘NB I have a disdain for my own people -Irish and their weakness in allowing the incarceration of republicans and oppression to continue.’
They will continue to allow such repression as they have dumped the very things that could have made them realise the importance of those in gaol.
The Irish News has a motto ‘pro fide et patria’ but supports neither. (For your Latin scrap book).
‘All those sneering ones who called us Irish living in places like Aussie or NZ plastic paddies are now licking our boots in desperation to score jobs and another country to live in.’
The ones who have abandoned their ‘Fide’ and their ‘Patria’.
‘Life is very strange is it not. Vatican & EU are nutting Ireland down NWO was never a myth. It is happening before our eyes.’
Aye the NOW, devoid of ‘Fide’ and ‘Patria.’
‘However you pour religiosity on all things rather than address issues sans catholic mode. Big mistake as keeps the lie alive it is a religous war etc...’
I face facts. The protestant people as a whole do not have allegiance to Ireland. Should they, individually or corporally decide to give it allegiance, I would be more than happy to accept them.
‘Roll on Armageddon but you won't be safe in a catacomb (nuclear matter goes underground John) ahahaha so do Mi5 & Mi6 cockroaches.’
It could be closer than you think. Saint Patrick promised the Faith would not die in Ireland.
‘Find somewhere else to hide.’
Where, Australia? No, I will not abandon my religion nor my country. I will stay and fight for them both.
@ John McGirr It was interesting and challenging some of what you wrote & of course had a bit of a larf at some of it... I do however acknowledge/recognise a sincerity in you in your quest for truth/justice spiritually & that you love Ireland and her people... It be easy to mock believers in God even amongst ourselves Harder to shut ones mouth and live out what one believes.
ReplyDeleteAnthony and other atheists must think we r nutcases with stuff we wrote. Makes me laugh even more that thought... I did recently consider checking out Orthodox catholic churches (supposedly the authentic ones before corruption) It did me head in and i fled. I cannot abide saints on the wall, flickering candles and a dead Christ on a cross. For me God is alive and as real as the air we breathe. Religion terrifies me and Catholicism meaning nothing means it it just Trauma all round - triggers flashbacks, etc. But i do not expect you to grasp that fully. Only those abused by clergy now adults know it never leaves one alone - the damage from it...
NB Anthony is very gracious letting us blabble away here i must say. Religious types would be far more scathing and censoring with differing views. That is why i have time for atheists... they allow for dissenters. Plus have fought for Justice when believers sat back & did nought. Now i must away and do work - cease obsessing with our discussion. If able to click my blog name & read latest entry. Says all it all succinctly. Better than my rambles in discussion here. It would be embarrassing to be sprung at work writing about God hehe Most untrendy being a believer as u know... Slan agus beannacht John. You are authentic but a right pain re God stuff at times.
Saint?MaryHedgehog,
ReplyDeleteI think you have it spot on with the black magic analogy. I can understand it being annoying to those of the Catholic tradition but it is hardly a concern of anybody not in that tradition. Nobody not cerebrally ravaged by that tradition could believe that sticking nails in this particular symbol is worse that genocide or clerical rape of children. It is truly amazing how religion can warp moral reasoning. How could a child rapist bless a wafer and turn it into god?
Your point on the Pharisees was well made. I think they are who the Catholic Church descended from.
‘It is gobsmacking to me that atheists can totally believe this life is all there is.’
But we think the same about those who believe in deities. What would be the point in this life if the real one is the next one?
‘If i believed that I would not bother with a thing.’
It would only mean not being able to address your human essence and therefore need something else.
‘Why fight for Justice?’
It is a worthy human value. That is why humanity created gods – to give them some hope that the justice which evades them on earth would ultimately be obtained elsewhere.
I don’t know if the suicide rate is higher for believers or non-believers. I know of suicides where the person wrapped themselves in religious regalia.
I don’t think atheism per se is a belief system and therefore it doesn’t work towards a purpose. It is nothing more than a disbelief in gods. And an atheist lifestyle is perfectly natural. It is not depressing.
Nuala,
The Clonard experience is terrible. People should not have to put up with that. But it was funny the way you phrased it.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI appreciated that last comment, especially the way you have summed up some important concepts in a sentence. I have believed for a long time that part of the appeal of religion (and hence the established church's long association with monarchies or other ruling interests) is to try to discourage people from speaking up about injustice. I remember back in school the religion teachers explained how suffering was central to being a catholic - as if misery and injustice where part of life that we had to embrace, not try to resist.
I was reminded of the comment made a few months ago by one of the parish priests near to the fatal air crash down in Cork. Right at the moment of anguish for the families involved he felt it appropriate to remind them of how the dead were now happier and in a better place. It was disturbing.
fffffffffffff,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that. I also enjoyed your comment on the Church of the subGenius.
Priests and their nonsense ... how the bereaved can find comfort from such trash is one of the mysteries of god! As Billy Connolly once said maybe Jesus just did play for Tottenham Hotspur.
Nuala hon I dont have any sympathy,you should have let the "orangies" burn the place in 69,pref filled with the clonard freaks,no trouble parking after that hon x
ReplyDeleteAlfie,
ReplyDelete‘I shudder to think what would become of the majority of mankind if John McGirr were right.’
Somehow, I don’t think you need worry.
Ryan,
‘Anyone have a chance to catch the David Cameron "victory" speech at Stormont?’
It was embarrassing. And they couldn’t even say a thing to dispute it.
Saint?MaryHedgehog,
ReplyDeleteGlad to read your thoughts and sorry to hear of the pain caused to you by wayward clerics. I have had a few ‘run ins’ with priests of a different nature, and I know the effect it had on me and my family, so your hurt must be unimaginable. I know that one priest hurt our family so much that I decided I would consider atheism. I did all the research, but every argument they advanced seemed so absurd. I began to realise that to deny God is to deny everything.
It is interesting what you say about atheists and you may be right about them being less scathing than ‘religious types’. I will certainly check out your Blog, when I get a chance.
AM,
‘Nobody not cerebrally ravaged by that tradition could believe that sticking nails in this particular symbol is worse that genocide or clerical rape of children.’
If the Consecrated Host is God, then it is an attack on God.
If it is a wafer then it is just rude, hateful and insensitive, but no big deal.
‘How could a child rapist bless a wafer and turn it into god?’
As almost all of the abuse has occurred since Vatican II and the dismantling of the Catholic religion, it is quite possible that most if not all the abusers were not real priests.
“‘I shudder to think what would become of the majority of mankind if John McGirr were right.’”
‘Somehow, I don’t think you need worry.’
Have you ever wondered why there has never been an atheist society? (Unless you take the Communist regimes of the last century to be one, but even there it was not universal).
A cow needs grass, grass is there. People need God, God is there. It would be a peculiar world if the vast majority of all people in all times had a burning desire and an inbuilt need for something that didn’t exist.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteIf you really understood Clonard and the Clonard people, then you would know, that we would be on the streets and defend the Monastary all over again and I am pretty sure I could include my Atheist son in that line up.
Are you really sure you would want to do that hon after all apart from removing oobnoxious ,objectionable,opinionated, people who think they own the place,it would also free the place from the yearly invasion of the praying dead, free up parking places AND as a bonus for the first time you could recieve RTE ,WOW, anyway on SKY thjere are 17 channels dedicated to saving souls and improving gods bank balance,you dont have to get out of your armchair hence in a way it could be argued you could play a part in saving the planets dwindling fuel reserves.go on Nuala lead the charge,toss the place ya missed a smashing match Derry v,s Armagh!
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteClonard Monastary has such significance for the people in this area.
The Priests in that building have always been totally committed to the people of this area and we have returned the gesture.
At the risk of sounding gushy, I remember Priests from Clonard down on their knees desperately pulling through the rubble of Clonard Street when the volunteers were killed.
They provided more than sanctuary for republicans in this area and provided it many many times.
I know there is a lot of truth in what you say, but nothing will ever change what the people here feel about Clonard, just wish they could relocate us nine days of the year.
OK Nuala apart from visiting a few friends and sharing a bottle of plonk with yourself and some really outdated cheese with Albert,I have no other intention of being anywhere near clonard, so if you could keep those men in dresses confined to clonard me and the kids up here will sleep a bit easier , remember jesus saves!!! plastic acceptable!or as they used to say in Jerusalem quick look busy jesus is coming!
ReplyDeleteMarty, you cannot generalise about Priests like that, all it does is undermine the clerical sex abuse issue.
ReplyDeleteClonard stuck to their guns in relation to the Gerry/Liam Adams issue and apart from Aine and her family they were the only ones to do it.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteAlbert said your winding us up, the cheese is almost always in date.
He has declared he will defend Clonard Monastary against any attack, provided it does not take place on a Saturday or a Sunday as he is otherwise engaged.
SMH
ReplyDelete‘I have to say that is how I live – hanging on to God but questioning why over and over re tragedies etc...’
Whatever gets you through the night. Religion is comforting to many people and it is cruel to deprive people of comfort. I don’t think I would ever want to ridicule that aspect of religion. I think it is fair comment to discuss it and critique as tried to do with the Mickey Harte perspective but to ridicule it is another matter. Where ridicule is a useful weapon is when religion tries to impose it moral code on others like gays and women.
‘just stuff Vaseline in brightly colored little containers & sell ‘em for big bucks...’
Pray for every altar boy in Ireland if that happens.
I tend to take the view that faith in religious terms is believing without evidence. As the existence of god is indemonstrable then until it is I am left with no option but to disbelieve. And if I were a believer I would go for the god of Helder Camara rather than the murderous despot of the bible.
You are right about persecution by Catholicism. If Christianity had state power it would be every bit as bad as Islam where it has stat power. Imagine that gang in the Vatican having the power to run our lives. It would be a frightening prospect.
Anthony yes Helder Camara He lived what he believed powerfully. Yes to whatever gets you thru - for me it be God - albeit at times have huge doubts & often no answers to queries (prayers) but that is what faith is. Plodding on. Believing despite doubts. Is essentially what Mickey Harte be saying in his own way & given the circumstances it be mindblowing and humbling. In Bobby Sands writings in prison there is a little sentence that stuck out to me where he said if one focuses too much on God/religion it can send one off the air (not his actual words but gist of what he meant)He is right. I think it would be arrogant nonsense for any God believer to state they u/stand why horrendous things happen in a generalized way but Mickey Harte has determined his situation as part of Gods plan... For me I see the tragedy of what happened as not Gods plan but evil acted by evil bastards in this world. Why did not God intervene afterall God is God - I don't know. No-one does...
ReplyDeleteRE: ‘just stuff Vaseline in brightly colored little containers & sell ‘em for big bucks...’
----> Pray for every altar boy in Ireland if that happens.'
!!!!
I felt abit bilious reading that tho did cackle! Rapists & pedo’s don’t bother with safe sex (condoms, dam, lube) for their victims ... they have NO mercy in any form. My Vaseline spiritual balm idea is a total DUD idea post your input!! I RETRACT it fully -!! Selling bottles of holy water is the go! PS not all Catholic priests/nuns are pedos but how they can hang out within a construct that churns ones that are out into communities is beyond me comphrehension.
I think u be right that the many including myself can use belief in God like a buffer to blockade horror times in life. Better that than a needle in the arm or self destruction and so forth. Better that than self pity & burning with hate/anger or falling apart with a meltdown of sanity...
Michaelhenry,
ReplyDelete‘heretic’ is a way of suppressing dissent and enforcing compliance with the doctrine. Religions are overly fond of applying the term.
SMH,
‘spiritual gymnastics’ – an apt term. I think a lot of it goes on in theology. Nor rational explanation is forthcoming so they dive into the gymnastics. I found John McGirr hopelessly unpersuasive in dealing with the issue of god’s foreknowledge. When I would put the same question to priests in jail they would wander off into the theological fog. Geoffrey Robertson has done a great book on the Vatican and the ‘cover up cardinals’. He hammers canon law and shows how it all fed into a paedophile trafficking ring. Benny the bad bears an awful lot of responsibility for the fate that befell thousands of children.
‘John McGirr aka the Pope of Pensive Quill.’ While tempted to shout ‘no pope here’ I like the novelty of that description and the idea that we might have a pope amongst us! John will hardly mind.
SMH,
ReplyDeleteI don’t think you are all nutcases but it baffles me that people believe the things that they believe. I can put up with a person believing in god when they try to make sense of the cosmos. There either is a creator or there isn’t. But when it comes to theology and the bunkum starts, that is when it all goes awry. There are things that simply do not add up and as you can see here there are all manner of contortions to make the illogical fit. It is better to say that 2 + 2 does not equal five rather than say something theological to make it five.
‘Anthony is very gracious letting us blabble away here … Religious types would be far more scathing and censoring with differing views.’
Nothing should be suppressed on the basis of it being an idea. There are people who don’t get on here because they abuse the site not because of what any ideas they might have. Vandals who go around deleting their previous comments in a fit of pique, people who use multiple identities, those who spam – that type does not get on. But it is a behaviour issue and never one of ideas.
John McGirr
ReplyDelete‘As almost all of the abuse has occurred since Vatican II and the dismantling of the Catholic religion, it is quite possible that most if not all the abusers were not real priests.’
Sort of like ‘I wasn’t green booked’ argument.
It has gone on from well before Vatican 2. That probably helped lift the lid on it. Clerical abuse of children goes back to the early centuries of the Church. Its first child sex scandal apparently in 153 AD; its first law against its clerics molesting boys came in 306 AD at the Council of Elvira. The Vatican was told in the 1950s by one of its own priests who dealt with sex abusers to get a Caribbean island to put all its paedophiles on as there were so many of them.
If they were not real priests then what effect does this have on the Eucharist? Surely one of them can’t turn it into god? If one of those people gave it as the last rites, as I am sure has happened on countless occasions, the recipient must be persona non grata in heaven if they were in a state of mortal sin.
‘Have you ever wondered why there has never been an atheist society?’
Not particularly. It never concerned me. The notion of one doesn’t do anything for me. I sort of like diversity. I don’t want the atheist church telling people they can’t believe in whatever it is they want to believe in.
@ Anthony I am going to order that book The case of the Pope by Geoffrey Robertson. I have heard about that book...
ReplyDelete@ John McGirr & Anthony and others who may be interested. There is a 2011 video on Youtube uploaded a few days ago called Irish Catholics
Interviewed are people on the streets of Dublin re Catholicism & what it means to them. Very interesting but very predictable responses from the street!. I think it be a pitch for Irish to return to church but no-one is buying it... It was uploaded to nonprofit and activism!! Link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaGj1rJdPKo
The channel is called RealCatholicTV.
John McGirr
ReplyDelete‘A cow needs grass, grass is there.’
I presume this is verified by the fact that every cow needs grass or similar sustenance. Evolution can explain the relationship between cows and grass. You don’t really believe god put the cows there ready made and then gave them grass readymade.
People need God, God is there.
Not all people need it as we know only too well. And evolution has explanations for that as well.
‘would be a peculiar world if the vast majority of all people in all times had a burning desire and an inbuilt need for something that didn’t exist.’
It is a peculiar world. That much we do know. People want to be happy and have comfort. If they don’t get it from real life they seek it from an imaginary one. Fear of dying and the dark leads to people believing they can survive their own death. They have never yet produced at a press conference someone who has survived.
SMH,
Helder Camara is an inspiration. So in contrast to the rogues that have plagued Irish society with their pompousness, cover ups and falsity.
Mickey Harte has had a terrible time and deserves whatever comfort he can find. It just would not work for me.
SMH,
ReplyDelete‘I am going to order that book The case of the Pope by Geoffrey Robertson.’
It is a good book and details quite well the criminality that the Vatican has engaged in. I would not be persuaded by all of it but he makes a case that cannot be shunted off to another parish.