Dying In Geneva

This seems to me quite a reasonable and sensible decision for someone with a serious, incurable and debilitating disease to elect for a medically-assisted death by appointment – Terry Pratchett

The Swiss clinic Dignitas which provides people with the means to acquire a peaceful and dignified death first caught my attention a few years ago. Long prior to that I understood the perspective of recently deceased Dr Jack Kervorkian. I vaguely recall writing a poem in prison lauding his endeavours to assist the terminally ill determine how their lives would end.

When Dr Anne Turner decided to bring her life to a close at Dignitas in 2006 and brought the issue of the right to die under the public spotlight, I firmly believed she made the correct decision for her, and I was not well disposed towards those who sought to pillory her for the path that she had chosen. Her case was captured in the film A Short Stay In Switzerland.

It seems a cruelty inflicted on any terminally ill citizen that they should have to travel to distant Geneva in order to seek the death they feel they need in order to be freed from whatever life-demeaning condition afflicts them. Were the same facility available in Ireland terminally ill people could die surrounded by those they love and in the comfort of their own home. Travelling to a flat in an industrial estate in Switzerland, a country perhaps never visited before and only now to die in, seems deeply callous.

The fantasy author Terry Pratchett did a considerable job in putting together the documentary Choosing To Die. He travelled to the Dignitas clinic to film 71 year old Peter Smedley end the life that had so blighted his existence since motor neurone disease first began its colonisation of his body, totally devaluing the quality of his life. Smedley described his illness as a ‘beastly, undignified business.’ Pratchett, who was in the room with Smedley at the end, was himself diagnosed with Alzheimer's three years ago and argues, ‘I know the time will come when words will fail me. When I can no longer write books, I'm not sure that I will want to go on living.’ While there is more to life than writing books, should he be told it is not his right to choose?

I watched Choosing To Die with my ten year old daughter. It was difficult viewing; the central character is no actor who gets up after he dies, shakes himself down and retires to his makeup room. I found it awkward when Smedley was denied water which he requested after taking the lethal concoction of barbiturates that would end his life. There may have been good medical reasons for this but if the process of terminating one’s own life is something which must be carried out autonomously the denial of water appeared to violate that. It seemed an interventionist act aimed at hastening his demise.

Throughout, Pratchett’s travelling companion looked distinctly ill at ease, clearly disapproving of the course of action taken by Smedley. I found it difficult but not for the same reasons, I being in agreement with his course of action. While Peter Smedley died relatively peacefully on camera, there was a paradox at the heart of his decision that I understood but was discomfited by. He was so rational that it seemed there was still purpose in life, that somehow it was wrong to cut it short. Yet in order to make the decision and be permitted to carry it through by Dignitas staff he had to be totally rational.

My daughter too found it disturbing. She cried as she watched Peter Smedley’s life depart him. I have wondered since if I made the right decision in allowing her to watch it. But I feel it is important to introduce children to some of the difficulties and challenges of life. I want her to see human life as characterised by real life dignity rather than by some spurious ethereal sanctity. She believes it was a worthwhile exercise and tells me that she thinks about death in a different way now, seeing that choice is important. At the same time she believes more effort should be put into finding cures.

At heart, the issue is about individual self determination, freedom to choose, the determining principle. Some have a problem with the human ability to self determine, thinking in the fashion of the former bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, that ‘life is a gift and it has infinite value and we are not competent to take it, we do not have the right to take it, except perhaps in the most extreme circumstances of protecting the weak.’ But he also has a problem with gays exercising the right to choose so his comments amount to little more than biblical prejudice. And the bible can no more determine how we live and die in modern democratic secular societies than the rulebook of a golf club.

There seems no justifiable reason why people should be forced to hold onto a limiting, debilitating life when they no longer want to. Whatever reservations I may have about Dignitas, and the facilitation of dying, its method seems much more reliable and humane than some of the DIY suicides which can be so messy and absolutely devastating for the loved ones left behind.

117 comments:

  1. I enjoyed this article, it was well written and informative.

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  2. AM-

    To live in constant pain is not life- to live without hope of a cure is not life- every-one should be allowed their own choice- it is not a sin to end the pain- it is a blessing- Jesus made his choice to die on the cross when he was healthy so i don't see how any hardline religious person could have any negative view on this issue-

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  3. Mackers

    Never one to avoid a difficult topic.

    Like Danny I found the article intersting and well constructed. However, I must admit to feeling uncomfortable with your decision to allow your ten year old daughter to watch the programme. Is this a topic for one so young to deal with? I remember being preoccupied with death as a young child, particularly in relation to my parents, and it was deeply distrubing, so much so, that I would cry myself to sleep at night. I think children should enjoy childhood and not be confronted with the issues of life and death at such a young age, except through the natural course of things.

    I hope you do not live to regret your decision.

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  4. Mackers,
    I have always been amazed at people who battle on inspite of incurable and debilitating disease.
    It must have been horrendous for people such as Christopher Reeve, who's life changed beyond all recognition after his accident.
    Then, there is the absolutely amazing Stephen Hawking who contributed so much to humankind despite his incurable disability.
    For many others illness's such as motor neurone absolutely destroys any form of credible and comfortable existence.
    Of course these people should be allowed their right to choose. How can anyone really believe that a person has a quality of life in such circumstances.
    If a person wants to put an end to an existence such as this, then they deserve support and compassion, not condemnation.

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  5. The refusal of water post administering lethal dose of medications is because of reflux/reflex reactions due to nervous system shutting down. Nil by mouth... It would be deeply distressing watch a person choking on water as they die.
    I am amazed you let your 10 yr old watch that footage but then again sheltering kids from realities death is not healthy nor beneficial. I just think at 10 yrs of age explaining why a grandparent died is adequate & walking them through saying goodbye, seeing the body etc... It is good she cried as shows she is processing the horror of what she saw. And you were there with her to guide her through. Still I would challenge the purported benefit/rightness of a child watching that footage.
    Working in terminal care (in non assisted to end ones life) setting is not a morbid hell as many think it is. I can vouch for that as did 6 years working with the dying when young & loved it. One of the best fields I have worked in. We are born with death on our breath are we not!
    RE: 'There seems no justifiable reason why people should be forced to hold onto a limiting, debilitating life when they no longer want to.'
    I understand why people choose assisted termination of their life but I support terminal care and dying with medications uptake staggered and increased towards the end. A sanctioned form of Overdose which occurs all the time in hospices and hospitals.
    NB People long to die without a debilitating, defined disease - those living with mental health illnesses and such. How far removed assisted death is from embracing those with no physical illness who want to die is to me problematic. The internet is the portal to info on how to top oneself so I no longer think it be the big deal people make it out to be that one cannot end ones life with meds and such. Motor Neuron disease is a fricking horrendous protracted death A lucid prisoner in their shutting down flesh... AIDS is also a hellish death... It be easy for people to take the high moral, spiritual ethics ground re. those who go for assisted termination due to debilitating illness. But one must bear in mind before running ones mouth - you never know til a disease happens to you what you truly will want towards the end. NB Elisabeth Kubler Ross was the pioneer in terminal care. Worthy of checking out her books etc. I used to take one of her books to work with me for staff and sometimes patients. One of her books is particularly powerful and with patients permission charts their journey into death with their stories and stunningly beautiful images. No one gets out of this life alive but how we exit it is the question...

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  6. Addin for anyone interested:
    Link to E. Kubler Ross Foundation:
    http://www.ekrfoundation.org/

    The book i mentioned is called 'To Live until we say goodbye' by Kubler Ross & Mal Warshaw. Is worthy reading & should be able to easily get it from library.

    Anthony how do you want to die - is there ever a totally ideal way to die? or is it just we hope there is & comfort ourselves with the notion?

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  7. Mickeyboy you dont half talk a load of shit.jesus didnt chose to die on the cross His Da ie; organised it or he did it himself part of the divine trinity, so he topped himself mo cara,,well thats the way the story goes so far,Hitler had great plans for the weak and vunerable. so to had Cromwell!of course life is worth living it could be worse you could be married to me ba ba ba!

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  8. SMH of course there is a perfect way to die ; I want to be shot aged 95 by a jealous husband!!!x

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  9. Michaelhenry,
    I am thinking of a certain "hardline religious person" who regularly posts here who would probably have a very negative view of this. Wonder where he is.
    St. Mary hedgehog, you didn't ask me but I have often thought of your question. A guy a few years back in California was beginning to feel the affects of his terminal ALS and decided to go skydiving at 12,000 feet only thing was he didn't pull the parachute and left a note behind. Maybe not ideal but always kinda admired the guy and the way he went out.

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  10. When a human being is suffering from a terminal, debilitating illness which destroys all quality of life and human dignity, then who am I to dictate what happens in those circumstances?

    If I were to attach moral guilt to a rational decision to end life, where life is no longer bearable or disireable, in a controlled environment with medical assistance, I would be guilty of ignoring human pain and suffering in favor of some moral/ethical absolute.

    That I would not be prepared to do in the name of any religion.

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  11. Personally I think anyone should be be allowed to die with dignity...Simply if your pet dog/cat or other was in pain you're allowed to bring it the vet to have it put down....

    On the post-thread..I've just seen this in todays Daily mail...

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008380/Dignitas-What-BBC-didnt-reveal-controversial-Pratchett-documentary.html

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  12. Danny,

    thanks for that.

    Michaelhenry,

    don't bet on it. They will find something to try and impose their religious opinion on your life.

    Alec,


    'Is this a topic for one so young to deal with?'

    There is no one answer. She was advised in advance of the subject matter and what it would show. She opted to watch it. I think children should see child birth and people dying. If it was gory I would not have allowed her to watch it. I have tried to get her not to view death as incomprehensible.

    'I hope you do not live to regret your decision.'

    You say that as if I did something horrendous. I did not let her try cocaine or anything!

    Nuala,

    agreed. It is a freedom of choice issue. And a full array of resources should be available to those who make whatever choice.

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  13. Alec,

    "I would be guilty of ignoring human pain and suffering in favor of some moral/ethical absolute.

    That I would not be prepared to do in the name of any religion."

    But you are prepared to ignore human suffering and pain in favor of some Republican absolute and appear too readily prepared to do so in the name of politics?

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  14. Mackers

    it's a matter for the parent to decide what a child should be exposed to within reasonable boundaries. I have no doubt you made a responsible choice being fully aware of the subject matter. Personally, I would find it extremely uncomfortable to watch that type of program with my young daughter.

    My own views on assisted death would be very similar to your own. When living becomes so unbearable because of a debilitating condition then it is a personal choice to opt out. Personally, I think there is something very brave and dignified in self determining how one's life should end in such circumstances.

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  15. Alec,

    I'm not sure how long you can shield children from the harsh realities of life. My nephew just turned four and he's already asking about death. I'm also not convinced that children should be told sugar-coated fairy tales instead of being slowly and carefully introduced to the real world. For instance, I remember the devastation that I felt when at the age of ten I discovered that Santa Claus was a lie. Indeed, realising a number of years later that God had as much evidential basis as Santa was a natural yet painful progression. In hindsight, I think I would rather have been told the truth about life from the moment I started to ask questions. But that's just me. It is very difficult to know what is the right way to proceed in this area; I think it is probably best to leave it to the parents. I don't really expect to have any kids, so it is one of the few things I don't worry about!!!

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  16. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  17. Robert,
    you are hardly a beacon of compassion and Godliness.
    The only difference between you and those you are critizing is, you are prepared to isolate people on the grounds of religion.

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  18. @ Marty
    Where do the most relaxed people in the world live?
    In the graveyards. Totally chilled out :-)
    My ideal of a perfect death is to be informed exactly how long i have left to live. If able to the lst thing i would do is flex my Mastercard – max it out to the fullest then ring the bank & tell them I am gonna cark it shortly – no point billing me – Bye! Minor Revenge from Struggle St. Would be SO sweet! Die with a smile on dile number!

    @ Ryan i share the same response to the jumper as you expressed ... Sad to think of the immense & lonely suffering on him prior to the act tho... I hope after he jumped - he felt like a bird - utterly, beautifully free - plummeting down through the clouds/air & losing consciousness long before hit terra firma. I think Irish and our culture are pretty healthy overall re reality of death and dying. Albeit maybe a bit too obsessed with death as exposed to so much losses and such through our history. Alot of Irish songs/poems fixate on dying & death.

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  19. Alife

    I would prefer my child to deal with issue of death through the natural course of things. Perhaps Mackers is right to want to educate his daughter in this way and I respect his choice to do that as a parent. The problem/obsession I had with death as a child might not have been so disturbing had someone sat me down and demystified the topic. I have no recollection of this ever being the case.

    Recently, we experienced a sudden death in the family of someone who was very close to my daughter. She felt this loss deeply and had many questions to ask about life and death. I did my best to provide answers that made sense to her. This is how I choose to deal with the matter.

    I think it is question of parental choice and guidance. Mackers would only make a choice that he believed was right for his child based on his parental instinct. For this same reason, I don't think my daughter would want to watch a program about assisted death as it would cause her too much distress.

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  20. Mackers,
    You would much more aware of your daughter's comfort zone than anyone else.
    There is no blueprint for how we should treat our children at a certain age.
    Some children can be very astute about the world around them, while others prefer their own little worlds.
    I sat with my da and watched everything, well, within reason.
    I was always pestering him with questions, I stuck to him like glue.

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  21. SMH

    thanks for that detail on the water.

    'I am amazed you let your 10 yr old watch that footage.'

    I am amazed that you are amazed! I talked with her tonight about it and she is ok about it. She has frequently discussed death and the end of life and I thought it appropriate to give her the choice to view or not.

    I too support care for the terminally ill. I just don't think it should be the only option. My reservation on this matter is that a brought to die should not become an obligation to die: the culture of pressure could be created whereby society would make the ill feel bad if they did not end their lives.

    'A sanctioned form of Overdose which occurs all the time in hospices and hospitals.'

    I have seen it in play.

    'How far removed assisted death is from embracing those with no physical illness who want to die is to me problematic.'

    For me also. Those 'weary of life' can also opt for it. How we apply freedom of choice here is no easy question. I have great admiration for the groups that work hard to combat suicide.

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  22. I think we have been here before, Robert.

    I will not grace you post with a reply.

    The subject is assisted death and the right of the individual to choose.

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  23. Alec,

    "I think we have been here before, Robert.
    I will not grace you post with a reply.
    The subject is assisted death and the right of the individual to choose."

    I cannot recall a previous visitation of this subject Alec? No digression is required or intended to what struck me as a curiosity.

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  24. Robert,

    I recall a comment from you in a similar vain on a previous occasion. Were I to reply to your post it would surely be a digression as the topic at hand is assisted death. If you want to take it elsewhere then perhaps you should write a piece and people can respond.

    My views on assisted death are what they are and you either agree or disagree. Other opinions I may hold on other matters are not the subject of this particular discussion.

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  25. The erosion of the sanctity of childhood. The metamorphosis has well and truly begun.

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  26. SMH hon I may be totally wrong here hon and Anthony or others can correct me if so, but I seem to recall a number of years ago I heard that Ray Mc Areavy of Wolfhound fame was told he had a short time to live, the story goes he maxed out cards ,borrowd from the banks all that he could,and threw a big send of party,but as in everything Irish there was a twist, it didnt happen and he,s still with us hon. I kind of like the idea of just sitting by a river and kiss the world goodbye.

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  27. I found this post to be very informative and interesting which sort of coincided with how I had felt about euthanasia. I found the programme very depressing as I find with a lot of programs that deal death in general. I myself cannot for the life of me understand the fascination with death that some people have, could be its me that is out of touch I much prefer the happy and more happy way of living I honestly believe that people whom want to discuss death would rather be dead but then again I could be wrong .
    What did grab my attention mostly about the post was that your 10 yr old child watched this morbid programme with you, my first observation was what would a 10 yr old find so invigorating about someone topping themselves??? Surely there are more happier things in life to occupy a 10 yr old than a programme about someone having the right to end his/her life, maybe its is the right thing for a child to know about all aspects of life, only time will tell

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  28. Marty,
    when I read your post it was like deja vu.
    Initially, when I read Macker's article I sat thinking about people I knew who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and how they had dealt with that diagnoses and Ray McAreavey was one of those I thought about.
    I recall a friend of mine who was a friend of Ray's being absolutely devasted over the news he had cancer.
    My friend later died of cancer at the very young age of thirty two.
    Just now before I opened this page the bold Ray was in my head again and then you had a post up about him.
    What did happen him, Divine intervention do you think?

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  29. Niall,
    there is no such thing as the 'sanctity of childhood'.
    There is no universal criteria for childhood, it is very much a social construct which differs over time and place.
    Sure, we have moved on from the Victorian times, when children were viewed simply as small adults and treated as such.
    Thankfully, most parents are only too aware of the ethical and moral boundries that cannot be crossed in relation to their kids.
    Sadly, quite often we have to make our children aware that life is not all fairytales and fantasy.
    For me personally, I wish the latter were the case and that we could create a precious space and keep our children tucked up in it. But neither life or reality will ever allow it.

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  30. @ Marty no I don't know re Ray McAreavy but he is great muso... It did however remind me of something that occurred in the West in the 1980s or early 90s it was maybe. Gay men were dropping like flies from AIDS here and in nyc and many newly diagnosed positive decided to blow all their savings travel and such before being bedridden dying. Then guess what happened! New retro viral drugs came on the scene! Alot of positive people were $$ broke but given quite good quality of life healthwise from these meds and didnt die! Such is life... Must get offline A gruelling week doing research for workstuff me eyeballs/brain nuked PS yes maybe a less aggro exit from this life is the go... Soon there will be more oldies like us than young in the world Raise your fist! Grey Power is on its way! Throwing bedpans & walking frames & incontinence pads in riots - mind way things r the bastard systems will send us to work on our walking frames til we die!Resist til we die!

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  31. Fionnuala,

    ‘There is no universal criteria for childhood, it is very much a social construct which differs over time and place.’

    I agree. But here, a child is a child and we all understand what a child is. How they are perceived in other cultures and locations bears absolutely no relevance to here. In our society everyone and I mean everyone, knows what a child is and when a person isn’t a child anymore.

    ‘Sure, we have moved on from the Victorian times, when children were viewed simply as small adults and treated as such.’

    This is exactly my point. A 10 year old child is exactly that – a 10 year old child. Introducing children at such a young age to the vagaries of adulthood is over stepping the boundaries. They are children – not small adults. Their innocence is lost when this happens and with it their childhood for that is what childhood is – innocence.
    The time will come when they have developed and matured enough to understand the concepts behind what is being discussed…..how could a 10 year old possibly contemplate and understand the reasoning behind such a programme? What a ridiculous notion to even suggest that she did!!!!!

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  32. SMH,

    'Anthony how do you want to die?'

    Alcoholic poisoning!

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  33. Alec,

    'That I would not be prepared to do in the name of any religion.'

    There is nothing I would be prepared to do in the name of any religion.

    'it's a matter for the parent to decide what a child should be exposed
    to within reasonable boundaries.'

    There is much she is not allowed to watch. And we try to structure her life but allow her as much intellectual freedom within those structures as possible. The documentary dealt with the type of issues she has often raised. I was satisfied she was emotionally capable of watching it. I explained the issues to her as they came up.

    'Personally, I would find it extremely uncomfortable to watch that type of program with my young daughter.'

    And for that reason it would not be right for you to watch it with her. But if she asked you could she watch it would you think differently?

    'My own views on assisted death would be very similar to your own.'

    I reckoned that.

    Alfie,

    'I'm not sure how long you can shield children from the harsh realities
    of life'

    True. It is a decision for parents and they need to think about what they want their children to see and learn.

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  34. Alec,

    "Other opinions I may hold on other matters are not the subject of this particular discussion."

    There are obvious tensions between your opinions on voluntary and involuntary death. This is very relevant to this discussion in terms of how we rationalise death and the right to take life.

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  35. Nuala,

    I think that is it - I do know her comfort zone. I actually think The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas caused her more problems. So we have these problems in fiction as well.

    'Not all children are the same ten, some are very children others
    extremely astute.'

    Absolutely. The authoritarian and arbitrary categorization is courtrooms, not the real world. And kids always know much more than their parents ever think they do.


    Alec,

    the points you raise about your own daughter demonstrate that there is no one size fits all approach to the matter. Initially I was not sure that I had done the right thing and was willing to be persuaded either way. Now I am pretty certain I did the right thing but it is not something I would tub thump on and tell other parents to do. Now, if you were allowing your daughter to smoke crack I would say something.

    My daughter is very inquisitive and asks about all sorts of things, the origins of life, how it all got started, the big bang, religion. Many times I have no answers for her.

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  36. Nuala,

    "you are hardly a beacon of compassion and Godliness.
    The only difference between you and those you are critizing is, you are prepared to isolate people on the grounds of religion."

    Where you see critique I see enquiry. I'm not aware that I have ever alluded to any sense of Godliness and would be interested in your citing where that has occured. I have a religious belief that leads me to be critical of institutions but not individuals and again where you can demonstrate my 'isolating' people on the basis of their religion please do so.

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  37. Frankie,

    I recall something before where it took very long; the drugs didn't take hold for some reason.

    Niall,

    'The erosion of the sanctity of childhood.'

    Terms like sanctity allows little room for dissent. It doesn't work because there is so much dissent in this case

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  38. Interested,

    I didn't find the programme depressing but it had disturbing qualities to it. I don't think death was the fascination; but the issues surrounding that particularity type of death prompt interest.


    'I honestly believe that people whom want to discuss death would rather be dead/'

    Seems too stretched.

    'your 10 yr old child watched this morbid programme with you.'

    But she didn't watch a morbid programme; she watched a very educational documentary.

    There is no right way or wrong way to do this. What age do we let a child cross the road or ride a bike? I have had more worrying experiences with both of those matters than I have had with my daughter watching that programme. I would not let her smoke or drink because I believe that would be detrimental to her well-being. I think we would all agree on that; but as we can see from the discussion here we do not all agree on the question of her watching the documentary.

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  39. Robert,
    you are a member of the orange order, no further explanation needed.

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  40. Euthanasia, a fancy Greek word, masking suicide and murder.

    It is only logical that when you reject God, you accept anything, even self-murder.

    As Joseph Rickaby remarked;
    “Atheism and materialism form the best nidus for the contagion of suicide.” (Moral Philosophy, Rickaby.)

    The case for suicide (or murder) involves the transgression of the axiom that ‘the end does not justify the means’. If we agree to renouncing this core principle of morality, then we would be in the position where anything goes. No wonder Euthanasia was mastered to an art in Nazi Germany.

    Some years ago, Bob Hope was asked what he thought of the legalisation of homosexuality in California. He replied that his real problem would come if they were to make it compulsory. Fortunately most legal systems continue to see self-destruction or a murder pact as an evil which is outlawed for the good of society.

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  41. Niall,
    We are greatly influenced by other cultures and this in turn affects the ever evolving construction of childhood.
    Countries such as the Netherlands have been extremely influential in the lowering of the age of sex education in schools.
    Everyone knows where childhood begins and ends, Everyone!!!
    Not so, a recent ICM poll in Britain concluded that more than 50% of parents interviewed realistically expressed the opinion that childhood ended age 11 when the child left primary school.
    40% said they really did not know.
    Social construction means just that, even within a given society cultural perception is not set in stone.

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  42. John McGirr-

    In my opinion there is nothing more important than freedom of choice- its what our hero's fought and most died for- you do not want people to have this choice- why- Jesus choose death at 32- why is nobody else allowed by religion to follow in Jesus footsteps if they have no cure for their sickness-

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  43. Mickeyboy I,m usefull with a hammer and I,ve loads of nails,if your really up for it I,m yer man,never mind terminal illness you,ll get to meet Jesus all the sooner.dont thank me a cara its what friends are for.

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  44. michaelhenry,

    I have devised a small multiple-choice questionnaire for you.

    Which of these statements best expresses the death of Jesus Christ?

    a)He committed suicide.
    b)He asked to be put to death.
    c)He was murdered by the Jews.

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  45. Fionnuala,

    ‘Countries such as the Netherlands have been extremely influential in the lowering of the age of sex education in schools.’

    Quite right I’m sure but there is also the other side of the coin.
    We also adopted a primary school curriculum that had its roots in Scandinavia and which was very successful and after what was deemed to be expert adaptation of such curriculum, a few years later we have the dubious distinction of acknowledging that we are turning out imbeciles….most schools have either dropped this curriculum completely or have only adopted limited aspects of it…some schools never adapted it at all as they could see the writing on the wall….so, what is relevant and successful in other countries and cultures doesn’t always adapt well to other locations and ideologies…..

    By the way, were the ICM themselves, able to determine when a child is no longer deemed a child?

    Mackers

    ‘Terms like sanctity allows little room for dissent. It doesn't work because there is so much dissent in this case’



    It’s not about ‘dissent’ in any form or from anything. It’s about a 10 year old CHILD who is not emotionally evolved or mature enough to fully comprehend what is happening….

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  46. Ah f##k John lol thats unfair are ya trying to melt Mickeyboys brain, anyway answer no,4 his da set him up,!

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  47. John McGirr-

    Answer no 5 - the romans did to Jesus what God wanted- God saved the Jews when he drowned those egyptians- nobody else got any help

    Marty-

    I would say that you would be handy with the hammer- but before that would the condemend be allowed a few drinks- for old times sake-

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  48. michaelhenry,

    You can argue the Romans, I can argue the Jews. ("His blood be upon us (Jews), and upon our children" Matthew 27:25).

    We do know however that He was murdered and did not kill Himself or ask others to kill Him.

    My response was not one of religion, but one of ethics. You have introduced religion and, once again, you are at odds with the Church you claim to back.

    However, we do not need religion to tell us that suicide or murder/suicide pacts are wrong.

    They are still seen to be wrong by all with the main exception of Switzerland.

    The most basic human instinct is self-preservation, and your advocating suicide will never make it right.

    The end NEVER justifies the means, period.

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  49. Jaysuusss Mickeyboy a cara I,d pour you the stuff. might even join you mate!

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  50. John McGirr,

    A religious opinion of little value to me in trying to work these issues out.

    'It is only logical that when you reject God, you accept anything, even
    self-murder.'

    Many religious people believe in voluntary euthanasia.

    Are we to assume that all these kids taking their own lives are murderers?


    'The case for suicide (or murder) involves the transgression of the
    axiom that ‘the end does not justify the means’.

    How would that rule apply to someone like Ronan Kerr? It would seem a strange god that would allow us to rip apart a man in the street but not allow us to peacefully and painlessly
    hasten our own deaths to avoid terrible suffering. I could sort of understand the type of god that would say 'no' to both types of death but not that strange one you seem to get along with.

    Homosexuality would be a problem if it were compulsory as would heterosexuality. It is about the freedom to choose.

    'Fortunately most legal systems
    continue to see self-destruction or a murder pact as an evil which is
    outlawed for the good of society.'

    But they don't really. There is so much approval for it under the surface. As SMH pointed out, a less painful death is administered regularly in hospitals. It seems to me an evil to deny someone the ability to bring their suffering to a close.


    Nuala,

    I imagine this is self evident - there is no agreement that I can see on when children stop being children. It is very much a social construct. Nor can we be sure that even where they are children about what sort of information they should have.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Niall,

    'But here, a child is a child and we all understand what a child is. How they are perceived in other cultures and locations bears absolutely no relevance to here. In our society everyone and I mean everyone, knows what a child is and when a person isn’t a child anymore.'

    This seems wholly unsustainable. It just tells us that it is culturally specific but not whether our culture or some other culture has it right. Where is the cutoff line that we all know about?


    'childhood is – innocence.'

    As much as I might wish to identify with this, there is more to childhood than innocence. And innocence does not equate with ignorance. Denying a child knowledge is often a judgment call. When is this innocence lost? Is it a process or a single event? Is it the same for every child?

    'A 10 year old child is exactly that – a 10 year old child. Introducing children at such a young age to the vagaries of adulthood is over stepping the boundaries.'

    Or stepping over the prejudice? Who imposes the boundaries on what it is right for a child to know?

    'how could a 10 year old possibly contemplate and understand the reasoning behind such a programme? What a ridiculous notion to even suggest that she did!!!!!'

    That can mean that you don't understand how she might understand.

    Knowing her as I do, and you not knowing her, the grounds for thinking she did not understand the issues - certainly those that she was interested in - are tenuous. The fact that she concluded that greater effort should be put into finding cures is a clear indication that she had a grasp.

    With our children we have to be careful and don't want to make our decisions lightly. It doesn't always work like that but on this one, I am pretty certain I got it right.

    ReplyDelete
  52. AM,

    ‘A religious opinion of little value to me in trying to work these issues out.’

    I agree with you on that. Religion only confirms what can be known without it concerning the moral law.

    ‘Many religious people believe in voluntary euthanasia.’

    They do, but does it make them right?

    ‘Are we to assume that all these kids taking their own lives are murderers?’

    Suicide is by definition self-murder. The fact that you are defending it makes it harder to persuade others that it is not an acceptable form of exiting from a particular set of life-problems.

    “'The case for suicide (or murder) involves the transgression of the
    axiom that ‘the end does not justify the means’.”

    ‘How would that rule apply to someone like Ronan Kerr?’

    Donning a police-uniform in an Orange police-state, could be seen as suicide from his point of view. From the other viewpoint it could be seen as self-defence in a just war against an invading aggressor with their paid collaborators.

    ‘Homosexuality would be a problem if it were compulsory as would heterosexuality. It is about the freedom to choose.’

    But I thought the whole argument was based on the premises that homosexuality was something you are born into, not something you choose.

    “'Fortunately most legal systems continue to see self-destruction or a murder pact as an evil which is outlawed for the good of society.'”

    ‘But they don't really. There is so much approval for it under the surface. As SMH pointed out, a less painful death is administered regularly in hospitals.’

    There is nothing wrong in giving someone a less-painful death, provided they are not intentionally killed.

    ‘It seems to me an evil to deny someone the ability to bring their suffering to a close.’

    The good of society means that a line has to be drawn. Human life is too important to allow it to be dispensed with by suicide and murder.

    ReplyDelete
  53. AM,

    AM:‘Many religious people believe in voluntary euthanasia.’

    JM: 'They do, but does it make them right?'

    In my view yes. It also means that they reached that position without turning their back no god.

    'Suicide is by definition self-murder.'

    So the kids are murderers? Who was the last person you recall charged with attempted murder as a result of a suicide attempt? I think we should make every effort to help these kids and support groups like PIPS. I think the course of action that they go for is most definitely not the right one but to call them murderers would be anathema to me.

    'The fact that you are defending
    it ...'

    What I defend is the right of the individual to terminate their lives if their illness is terminal and reducing the quality of their lives.' If people are depressed I think it can be cured and suicide is an unnecessary measure.


    'Donning a police-uniform in an Orange police-state, could be seen as
    suicide from his point of view.'

    Bollix.

    'From the other viewpoint it could be
    seen as self-defence in a just war against an invading aggressor with
    their paid collaborators.'

    A very marginalised viewpoint and I wonder why god would back that.

    'But I thought the whole argument was based on the premises that
    homosexuality was something you are born into, not something you choose.'

    True. But it would still be a problem if it were compulsory for us all. And once a person is born homosexual they should have the freedom to choose to engage in gay sexual relations or not. No pressure should be applied to them either way.

    'There is nothing wrong in giving someone a less-painful death, provided
    they are not intentionally killed.'

    I presume you know what goes on in hospitals and the type of offers that are made by medical staff. They say things like 'we can decrease the pain with extra shots. Do you understand what I am saying?' Of course we understand and we approve. So people are intentionally killed to put it as bluntly as you do.

    ‘It seems to me an evil to deny someone the ability to bring their
    suffering to a close.’

    'Human life is too important to allow it to be dispensed with by suicide and murder.'

    But not that important that it is ok to rip it to pieces in the street?

    ReplyDelete
  54. AM,

    “'Suicide is by definition self-murder.'”

    ‘So the kids are murderers? Who was the last person you recall charged with attempted murder as a result of a suicide attempt?’

    It is not just kids. I have a very close relative who killed himself aged 68. I’m not sure why you have such a hang-up with the word ‘murder’. It is generally customary to use that word when referring to a third party, but it can equally be used in the sense I did. I am talking about the transgression of a moral law, and have no concern of any state-made legal implications.

    ‘I think the course of action that they go for is most definitely not the right one but to call them murderers would be anathema to me.’

    To kill an innocent human being is always murder.

    “'The fact that you are defending it ...'”

    ‘What I defend is the right of the individual to terminate their lives if their illness is terminal and reducing the quality of their lives.'

    You have suggested suicide can be good. I say never. There is always a better choice than suicide.

    ‘If people are depressed I think it can be cured and suicide is an unnecessary measure.’

    Suicide is never ‘necessary’. To suggest it should be so is chilling.

    'From the other viewpoint it could be seen as self-defence in a just war against an invading aggressor with their paid collaborators.'

    ‘A very marginalised viewpoint and I wonder why god would back that.’

    Are you suggesting that all the years of resistance was wrong? As for being marginalised, so what?

    “'But I thought the whole argument was based on the premises that homosexuality was something you are born into, not something you choose.'”

    ‘True. But it would still be a problem if it were compulsory for us all. And once a person is born homosexual they should have the freedom to choose to engage in gay sexual relations or not. No pressure should be applied to them either way.’

    Does this also apply to those ‘born’ with paedophile tendencies? There are many perversions out there, (some of which I only learned of today, when reading the Scat Man,) but society has always opposed them. That is until now when they suicidal tendencies of Western European civilisation are being fulfilled.

    ‘I presume you know what goes on in hospitals and the type of offers that are made by medical staff. They say things like 'we can decrease the pain with extra shots. Do you understand what I am saying?'

    Yes. There are many things that go on in hospitals that are not right. From abortion, to infanticide, to euthanasia.

    ‘Of course we understand and we approve. So people are intentionally killed to put it as bluntly as you do.’

    And where this happens it is wrong. My wife’s grandmother was killed like that, as soon as her mother left for a few days. We were given 24 hours notice that she was going to die. I understand it freed up a bed.

    'Human life is too important to allow it to be dispensed with by suicide and murder.'

    ‘But not that important that it is ok to rip it to pieces in the street?’

    Innocent human life may never be legitimately taken by anyone, ever, neither your own or that of another.

    ReplyDelete
  55. John McGirr,

    John

    ‘I’m not sure why you have such a hang-up with the word ‘murder’.

    Because you used the term to describe suicide.

    ‘I am talking about the transgression of a moral law, and have no concern of
    any state-made legal implications.’

    Regardless, all these kids and the 68 year old are murderers legally or
    morally?

    As for the morality of assisted dying, golf clubs nor churches can
    dictate to society what is moral.

    ‘You have suggested suicide can be good. I say never. There is always a
    better choice than suicide.’

    But this is just opinion either way. I don’t seek to impose mine on
    others.

    Suicide is never ‘necessary’. To suggest it should be so is chilling.

    To suggest people should be denied the option when the alternative is
    to carry on in intense pain and misery is more chilling. It is their body and their right to decide.

    Are you suggesting that all the years of resistance was wrong?

    Much of it was.

    As for being marginalised, so what?

    On marginalisation I just wonder why god supports something that
    contradicts his laws on killing and fails to generate wider support. Thou shalt not kill is not thou shalt not kill ... but

    ‘Does this also apply to those ‘born’ with paedophile tendencies?’

    If one paedophile wants to have sex with another, fine. As I often say
    if priests ride priests why would I give a toss? If they want to have
    sex with children who are not considered capable by society of giving consent, then it is a no no. Sex must always be consensual. Where
    adults consent, fine by me.

    If your wife’s grandmother was killed without her consent, serious
    problem. If she consented to her life being ended because of terminal
    illness, fine.

    ‘Innocent human life may never be legitimately taken by anyone, ever,
    neither your own or that of another.’

    But then any one can come along with an idea, invoke god or nation,
    define somebody as not being innocent and then kill them.

    Self serving cant to me.

    ReplyDelete
  56. AM,

    “‘I’m not sure why you have such a hang-up with the word ‘murder’.”

    ‘Because you used the term to describe suicide.’

    Suicide is a species of murder, not in its civil sense but in its transgression of the natural moral law.

    ‘Regardless, all these kids and the 68 year old are murderers legally or morally?’

    There can be all sorts of mitigating factors, but in the general moral sense, yes.

    ‘As for the morality of assisted dying, golf-clubs nor churches can
    dictate to society what is moral.’

    I believe I conceded a few messages back that morality has no need of religion, other than to confirm what it states. If you don’t want that confirmation, take it from your golf-club, or wherever, if that reaffirms the truth of the natural moral law.

    “‘You have suggested suicide can be good. I say never. There is always a better choice than suicide.’”

    ‘But this is just opinion either way. I don’t seek to impose mine on
    others.’

    Who is doing any imposing? In case you hadn’t realised, once again, morality is not subject to religion, (but can be confirmed by it). Where a people adhere to one religious grouping it is only stating the obvious to say that most rules will be based on what those in that religion accept. This is not the case in Ireland for many years. Some of the most immoral people I know are those who claim to be religious.

    “Suicide is never ‘necessary’. To suggest it should be so is chilling.”

    ‘To suggest people should be denied the option when the alternative is to carry on in intense pain and misery is more chilling. It is their body and their right to decide.’

    Not so. God, society and the individual all have a call here. If you are saying suicide can be necessary, are you also saying it should be compulsory in certain circumstances?

    “Are you suggesting that all the years of resistance was wrong?”

    ‘Much of it was.’

    Would you care to elaborate? Do you think the Easter Rising was wrong? The Border Campaign? The Provos?

    “As for being marginalised, so what?”

    'On marginalisation I just wonder why god supports something that
    contradicts his laws on killing and fails to generate wider support. Thou shalt not kill is not thou shalt not kill ... but'

    Even to say ‘thou shalt not kill’ applies to humans and not flies is an interpretation. My ‘golf-club’ is entitled to set my understanding of this and interpret it.

    ‘If your wife’s grandmother was killed without her consent, serious
    problem. If she consented to her life being ended because of terminal illness, fine.’

    No consent. Medics ‘knew best’.

    “‘Innocent human life may never be legitimately taken by anyone, ever, neither your own or that of another.’”

    ‘But then any one can come along with an idea, invoke god or nation, define somebody as not being innocent and then kill them.’

    How cynical. Let me re-phrase. Two principles I hold dear:
    First; ‘It is never lawful directly to take the life of an innocent man.’
    Second; ‘It is never lawful for a private individual to kill anyone whatsoever.’

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  57. John,

    ‘Suicide is a species of murder, not in its civil sense but in its transgression of the natural moral law.’

    But that is hardly objective. My morality, your morality type thing. It all comes down to interpretation.

    It seems very harsh to accuse an 18 year old who hangs himself in a West Belfast graveyard of being a murderer. It is certainly a morality I do not want to have.

    ‘I believe I conceded a few messages back that morality has no need of religion.’

    It escaped me. But it is good to know. The religious forever try to explain that without religion there can be no morality.

    ‘Who is doing any imposing?’

    It strikes me that you are always doing this, labelling those who practice something else in all manner of pejorative terms; gays, Jews and suicides for example.

    ‘Some of the most immoral people I know are those who claim to be religious.’

    Agreed.

    ‘ God, society and the individual all have a call here.’

    Society and the individual, yes. Forget about god. He doesn’t matter. Those that believe in him do but that is different.

    ‘If you are saying suicide can be necessary, are you also saying it should be compulsory in certain circumstances?’

    Never. How would that be freedom of choice. Sounds more like murder to me and not suicide.

    ‘Do you think the Easter Rising was wrong? The Border Campaign? The Provos?’

    Great elements of wrongdoing in them all. I don’t get hooked on any of them. Military force should always be a last resort never a first.

    ‘Even to say ‘thou shalt not kill’ applies to humans and not flies is an interpretation. My ‘golf-club’ is entitled to set my understanding of this and interpret it.’

    True. But your golf club has no right to apply its interpretation on that basis alone.

    ‘No consent. Medics ‘knew best’.

    Disgrace. This denies the choice of the patient. That is nothing short of murder. I think you could only ever claim justification if somebody was burning to death in a car and it was impossible to get them out. It would be hard to be judgmental about someone who shot the trapped person.

    “‘Innocent human life may never be legitimately taken by anyone, ever,
    neither your own or that of another.’”

    ‘But then any one can come along with an idea, invoke god or nation, define somebody as not being innocent and then kill them.’

    ‘How cynical.’

    Cynicism – a healthy awareness of the gulf between what people practice and what they preach. Michael Ignatieff I think.

    Let me re-phrase. Two principles I hold dear: First; ‘It is never lawful directly to take the life of an innocent man.’

    So you just define him as guilty.

    ‘Second; ‘It is never lawful for a private individual to kill anyone whatsoever.’

    What about those who killed Ronan Kerr?

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  58. AM,

    “‘I believe I conceded a few messages back that morality has no need of religion.’”

    ‘It escaped me. But it is good to know. The religious forever try to explain that without religion there can be no morality.’

    Religion confirms morality. It is one of them things that draws me to religion. No one else, especially golf-clubs, seem to get things right so much.

    “‘Who is doing any imposing?’”

    ‘It strikes me that you are always doing this, labelling those who practice something else in all manner of pejorative terms; gays, Jews and suicides for example.’

    Talking of that, I am currently reading a book by a Jewish agnostic, who happens to be a scientist, about how Dawkins is wrong. How I wish he was gay, then I would really feel vindicated. His name is David Berlinski and the book is ‘The Devil’s Delusion’.

    “‘Do you think the Easter Rising was wrong? The Border Campaign? The Provos?’”

    'Great elements of wrongdoing in them all. I don’t get hooked on any of them. Military force should always be a last resort never a first.'

    I see them all as right and good. Of course wrong may have been done in individual cases and yes armed action is a last resort, not used until all other avenues are tried.

    “Let me re-phrase. Two principles I hold dear: First; ‘It is never lawful directly to take the life of an innocent man.’”

    ‘So you just define him as guilty.’

    Only if he is.

    “‘Second; ‘It is never lawful for a private individual to kill anyone whatsoever.’”

    ‘What about those who killed Ronan Kerr?’

    If it was not carried out by volunteers of the Irish Republican Army, there is no possible justification for it. If it was, it is not for me to say as I defer to the judgements of those who have charge of the Irish Republic.

    ReplyDelete
  59. @ John McGirr Just a few Important thoughts (i think they are at least!) post reading your input Read them!
    ‘If people are depressed I think it can be cured and suicide is an unnecessary measure.’
    Not often cured John unless it be of the transient kind and tied in with a specific life event which had detrimental impact at a specific time. Depression is a healthy response to a traumatic event which all humans experience and move through. Clinical depression however is a whole other story...
    I am so leery of the so called ‘cure’ word being tossed particularly in young vulnerable faces. Counsellors I have observed telling this to young vulnerables absolutely DISGUST me & I always call them on it. There are certain places/orgs I will never work for or in or be associated with if they tell any client they can be cured. The minute I see that cure approach in action I make a complaint and am gone.
    This because - It creates a false hope as well as puts onus on the seriously depped person they should be able to get it together hence creates a sense of failure in the depressed including more despair.
    NB Unfortunately this 'cure' approach has got quite a few pushing up daisies not smelling roses One can assist the afflicted to find ways to manage mental health illness.
    I don’t ever support suicide but ACCEPT a certain proportion will take that route. I too have lost loved ones to suicide John & live with the scars. I am also deeply suspicious of those who have never contemplated topping themselves at some time in their life! Or engaged in thinking on it or how they will face into dying from a terminal illness.

    Obviously I must not be of the calibre of you and others who believe in God as I do also, but at the least I am honest - that be true!
    I know things are bad in Ireland and BUT!! if you truly believe a family member was overdosed JUST to free up a hospice or hospital bed you should launch a complaint immediately & demand a review of all procedures in treatment up til death. I SUGGEST to you what you state is not actually what transpired. The medications regime may have been upped at a critical time as the patient deteriorates/heads into death. Hence the final flooding of the persons system with opiate and other pain relief hastens the inevitable death. Not murder John but a merciful ending to an inevitable cessation of life.

    OR would you have preferred to watch the family member rasping shallow breaths, cadaver like slowly die agonisingly and call it Gods will.. Re self termination of ones life - Only God can judge any human being for their choice. As with suicide the same applies. I am inclined to think the suffering of mental health illness is worse than physical diseases at times. Dignitas approach I do not support at all. My Dad died a agonising death from cancer. He made me laugh instead of cry when he was dying. In his words to me about this life “Battle on!” It was his warcry all his life right up to death & he passed it on to me. I also hope God realises I aint as tough/brave as my Dad & takes me out quickly when dying time comes about.

    ReplyDelete
  60. SMH,

    the first half of your comment should be directed at me. John McGirr was merely citing in his comment what I had said.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Apologies anthony & john John disregard my lst part of ramble. Can u & john mcgirr put your initials beside who be who when having a longwinded back and forth discussion le do thoil! as i get all confused who be saying what as you see plus i am old & easily confused. Young geriatric in the house! PS "Beauty fades but dumb is forever" Judge Judy ahahaha

    ReplyDelete
  62. Dying In Geneva

    Niall,

    terms like sanctity or sacred are used frequently to hobble dissent. Assign a sacred or sanctified status to something and the criticism becomes ‘profane.’

    'It’s about a 10 year old CHILD who is not emotionally evolved or mature enough to fully comprehend what is happening'

    How fully must anyone comprehend an issue before engaging with it? Arbitrary categorisations on issues of knowledge seem just that, arbitrary. Who does 'fully' understand any issue? There is invariably someone who will understand it better. That has been my experience of life thus far.

    ReplyDelete
  63. John McGirr,

    ‘My response was not one of religion, but one of ethics.’

    Delete all reference to god and yes you are right. Put god in and its religion.

    ‘we do not need religion to tell us that suicide or murder/suicide pacts are wrong.’

    We do not need religion to tell us that anything is right or wrong. As you state morality is a stand alone matter. What we have is human society trying to work out the best way forward and charting out ground.

    ‘The most basic human instinct is self-preservation’.

    It is wider than human and would appear to be the principle of all forms of life and the process of natural selection that Darwinists subscribe to. Then there are the terrible things it has led to where all else is sacrificed in the pursuit of self preservation.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Saint?MaryHedgehog,

    'Can u & john mcgirr put your initials beside who be who when having a longwinded back and forth discussion le do thoil!'

    Of course, sorry, I get carried away and forget how difficult it is to see who is saying what.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Anthony,

    "If people are depressed I think it can be cured and suicide is an unnecessary measure."

    I disagree. My last serious bout of depression lasted two and a half years. I have never known pain like it. It did eventually dissipate somewhat but that seems to have been more down to luck than anything else. I wouldn't say it has been cured; indeed, based on my past psychiatric history, it may well return in some form or another. I think if it does come back and I have to face the prospect of another indefinitely long period of severe mental anguish, then I might consider ending my life. The only thing that prevented me from going down that road in the past is the devastating impact my suicide would have on my family. Still, I do believe that suicide for the long-term mentally ill is a rational choice.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Alfie,

    point taken. I just have the view that depression is not incurable. In some cases it can't be but in a lot it can.

    'I think if it does come back and I have to face the prospect of another indefinitely long period of severe mental anguish, then I might consider ending my life.'

    But again you might emerge the other side of it able to cope as you are now. It is so jolting to read you discussing this but you bring honesty and clarity to the discussion.

    'I do believe that suicide for the long-term mentally ill is a rational choice.'

    Suicide is a way out of terrible pain but if the judgment is impaired by mental illness is it a rational choice? Ultimately, it is your call but you have other choices and should consider them. If you don't have other choices then suicide is a necessity and no longer a rational choice. Whatever I or others at this end can do to assist we will. You can rest assured that John McGirr, Nuala, Marty, myself and so many others, regardless of our philosophical position on the matter, will do all we can.

    ReplyDelete
  67. That goes without saying Alfie,100% Anthony on this one a cara, this area Poleglass I believe tops the poll on suicide,if not top very close to it.I knew 4 kids who took that path,and witnessed the devestation such action leaves behind,I cant imagine the nightmare anyone like yourself must go through to contimplate such a drastic act.I honestly hope it never becomes anything more that an option to you and others.stay strong a cara and remember its always darkest before the dawn.

    ReplyDelete
  68. 'You can rest assured that John McGirr, Nuala, Marty, myself and so many others, regardless of our philosophical position on the matter, will do all we can.'

    Absolutely. There is nothing as devestating as suicide. There is always a better way. My uncle, to whom we were all very close, did that 18 months ago. Many lives were ruined as a result. It seems he had severe depression.

    Hopefully more and more effort will go in to gaining an understanding of this and helping before it reaches that point.

    ReplyDelete
  69. AM,

    JM "'My response was not one of religion, but one of ethics.’"

    AM 'Delete all reference to god and yes you are right. Put god in and its religion.'

    I should have distinguished between natural and supernatural religion. When I said religion there I mean supernatural religion, ie., Catholicism. Natural religion has been discussed in philosophy throughout the millennia.

    Without God there is nothing on what to ground ethics, hence it is a postulate of ethics which is proved in natural theology. Ethics without God is meaningless as ‘if there is no God, everything is permitted.’ (Brothers Karazamov).

    JM "‘we do not need religion to tell us that suicide or murder/suicide pacts are wrong.’"

    AM 'We do not need religion to tell us that anything is right or wrong. As you state morality is a stand alone matter.

    Same distinction. We do not need Catholicism, but we prove God in natural theology and presuppose Him in ethics. I guess it is based on this distinction that SMH is able to accept God but not ‘religion’. My ethics has more of Aristotle than Christ in it.

    What attracts me most to the Catholic Church is the fact that morality, reasoned out by philosophy, is taught by it and by no-one else. That is another question, but that is supernatural religion and not philosophy.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Anthony, Marty & John,

    I appreciate your friendship and support. Though I have never met any of you in person, I consider all the regulars on the Pensive Quill my friends. Indeed, I would say the PQ played a significant role in the improvement of my mental health from the second half of 2010 onwards. Commenting and debating led me to start thinking, reading and writing again; what's more, the scientific debates about creationism and evolution inspired me to take 2 courses in the Open Univerity, both of which are going well. So I'd like to thank Anthony and everyone else here for the part you have played in that.

    Though I have considered suicide in the past, I doubt I could ever go through with it. The anguish of those left behind is too great. I know this firsthand as my grandmother took her own life when I was a teenager. My mother was inconsolable then and I know it would be even worse for her if I were to do the same. On the other hand, it does mean that those with long-term severe mental illnesses must spend perhaps the majority of their lives suffering terribly. Anyway, all I can do is enjoy the good times when they come and hope that they last.

    ReplyDelete
  71. Alfie you think you have it bad a cara,at least when you wake in the morning you wont have to look at Mickeyboys bake,or a room full of pics of the bearded one with wee red lights below, so when the dragon opf depression bites you mate spare a thought for Mickeyboys other half that lady truly is an sean Bhean Bocht.

    ReplyDelete
  72. Nice one, Marty! I will bear that in mind. No offence, Michael Henry - I'm sure your lady friend is quite content!

    ReplyDelete
  73. Hey Alfie,
    I don't believe in this day and age that anyone with mental illness "must spend perhaps the majority of their lives suffering terribly." With all the great doctors, counselors and new medications out there there is no excuse not to ask for help. We all got our demons me myself I have severe obsessive compulsive disorder that was ruining my life before I found a great doctor who helped me turn things around and fight those intrusive unwanted thoughts.
    I hope you seek out some professionals and see where it goes.
    good luck mate

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  74. Alfie-

    If my lady friend is happy to get whiskey for me in tesco's- then i suppose she is content-
    im glad i don't fall down the stairs like Marty when i get a sniff [ of drink ]

    ReplyDelete
  75. Lol Mickeyboy I dont fall down stairs a cara,its more indoor hang gliding (without the kite).Alfie maybe Irish Iris can help ouy mate,

    ReplyDelete
  76. @ Alfie Well done... and i mean that in a NON patronising way... It takes GUTS to push on and live on when ones world turns to hell. There is enormous stigma about mental illness entrenched in societies worldwide. The real deal depression is not called 'the living death' for nothing... and you know that all too well from what u shared...

    RE: 'Anyway, all I can do is enjoy the good times when they come and hope that they last.'

    Just a few thoughts - If the depression did return full force have a NB pre-prepared strategy in place to kick it in the guts.

    Make a list of who your support people are and individuals who will stand with you in the storm. (professional healthcare ppl, fam, friends and so forth)
    Write down what helped you when u were seriously ill from depression and what did NOT help. Also identify things that may contribute to depression being triggered in you. Each person has unique triggers as well as these generalised ones (ie) too much pressure work or study, not sleeping right, poor diet, if on meds not taking them as prescribed, etc. Finally write down who you are as a whole person because you are whole not a disease or condition but a complete person. Depression full force on one errodes this insight and distorts self perception hence increased despair. Seeing this all written down helps to reinforce a self care strategy and firm up a plan of action should things get bad again. This info may or may not be of use and you probably already know all this but just in case...

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  77. SaintMary?Hedgehog,
    More often than not it does the heart good to read what you write.
    I too think Alfie was extremely brave.
    I have known incredible strong people who have spent the enterity of their lives battling with depression.
    My granny used to say, 'what does not kill you makes you stronger'
    I really don't know about that one, but I would say, dealing with a severe illness like depression would most certainly give you an edge.
    I watched a programme years ago on depression, it was produced and presented by Stephen Fry, who himself suffers from acute manic depression.
    All the respondents he interviewed had suffered horrendously as a result of years and years battling the illness.
    What was amazing about this programme was at the very end, Stephen Fry revisited all the participants and asked them if they could press a button to erase their past experience would they? the majority said no!
    Most of them felt that, while they were grappling with a horrendous illness there had been a positive side to their experience.
    Many cited, they believed it made them more understanding, empathetic, intuitive and much more human.

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  78. Alfie,
    What I was endeavouring to say and not to well I may add, is, that more often than not, what a person experiences as a result of an illness such as depression can actually make them stronger.
    Taking yourself from the depths of that illness to university study is a considerable achievement.
    Sometimes we focus more on what we have not achieved than the obstacles we overcome.
    You should be more than a bit proud of yourself.

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  79. SMH,

    Found your comment informative on your difficulty with the cure for depression discourse. I would have thought in many cases it is both treatable and curable. I agree with you when you highlight the case where people are told to pull themselves together. But I don’t think that is a cure approach but more a blame one.

    ‘I am also deeply suspicious of those who have never contemplated topping themselves at some time in their life!’

    I first came across that view in 1981, expressed in a novel by Taylor Caldwell.

    You suggested to John ‘what you state is not actually what transpired. The medications regime may have been
    upped at a critical time as the patient deteriorates/heads into death.’ Hence the final flooding of the persons system with opiate and other pain relief hastens the inevitable death. Not murder John but a merciful ending to an inevitable cessation of life.’

    I don’t know the particulars of the case John refers to but what you describe above is what I think is the norm.

    ‘Dignitas approach I do not support at all.’

    I very much support it. I can see no reason why it should be denied to someone who feels they need it. I support those approaches that give people choice.

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  80. SMH & Nuala,

    Thanks for the advice and kind words.

    Ryan,

    I don't know what the statistics are, but I would imagine that a significant number of those suffering with mental illnesses do not respond successfully to treatment. Moreover, many of those that do recover suffer frequent relapses. I have been in hospital five times with depression and OCD since the age of 18 and I usually met the same people on my ward each time. Medication and psychological therapy work for very many people and some recover fully and permanently; unfortunately, others do not.

    I can tell you honestly that when I'm depressed, I don't want to feel that way. It just seems to overwhelm me and I become stuck in a way of thinking and can't seem to get out of it. I am also prone to bizarre, irrational thinking at times - a feature of the OCD, as I'm sure you're aware. I really hope I don't become depressed again, but because it has come back so many times, I find it difficult to be optimistic. My biggest fears in life are physical and mental pain. I'm not brave and I'm no hero. My doctor says that to live a life facing great psychiatric adversity is worthwhile, but I don't know. To me, it seems to be just endurance of pain for nothing. But enough of that. Things are good right now, and as the God-fearing amongst us might say, we should be grateful for small mercies!

    Marty,

    I'm probably too old for Iris!

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  81. John McGirr,

    ‘I should have distinguished between natural and supernatural religion.’

    It only does when it does not invoke or lead to any supernatural being. When it does that it is little different to a secular religion like the type of culture that used to swirl around British royalty, serving as a form of social cement.

    But natural religion that serves to mask supernatural origins is a hoax. The Intelligent Design movement tried it with irreducible complexity: if something looks like it is designed it has to have a designer. ID was ridiculed and has become a joke within the scientific community. It was placed on a par with astrology by one of its leading advocates and conceded as theology by another. Paley did it with his watch and the watchmaker. Aristotle makes the case for the unmoved move or uncaused cause but this is all inference and fails to answer the question of what caused it. It can’t just be stated as fact. It cannot scientifically show god or philosophically that there is only one god. Plato only thought it proved gods rather than god. In my view natural theology is not proof of god but is proof to those who believe that god is a wafer and other strange things. It is a matter of levels of proof. If someone can accept that god is a wafer, then they don’t really require much evidential proof in order to believe something. It just seems a cop out or akin to a god of the gaps to fill in those gaps with something we call god.

    ‘Without God there is nothing on what to ground ethics.

    There is everything on which to ground ethics. The fact that people create a god to ground their ethics shows this. And as we both agree morality (ethics) does not need religion. This is why many atheists are much more ethical than believers.


    ‘Ethics without God is meaningless as ‘if there is no God, everything is permitted.’(Brothers Karazamov). A brilliant book by the way. The opposite is in fact true, with god everything is permitted. Just get control of god and all becomes allowable. What morality is there in putting reputation of the church before the child victim of clerical rape? Or in denying condoms to people as a measure against AIDS?

    ‘We do not need Catholicism, but we prove God in natural theology.’

    Back to levels of proof. It can be proven to you that a wafer can be turned into god but for the bulk of us that sort of proof is rubbish. It has failed absolutely to prove it to me. Countless others with much better minds have not been persuaded either.

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  82. AM and S?MH,

    AM said, 'You suggested to John ‘what you state is not actually what transpired. The medications regime may have been
    upped at a critical time as the patient deteriorates/heads into death.’ Hence the final flooding of the persons system with opiate and other pain relief hastens the inevitable death. Not murder John but a merciful ending to an inevitable cessation of life.’

    I don’t know the particulars of the case John refers to but what you describe above is what I think is the norm.'

    I meant to answer this earlier. The case of my wife's grandmother was different. She was a long-term sufferer of Alzheimer's Desease but was physically okay,and did not appear to be sufferning. She was taking up a bed in a long-term residetnial hospital and had been there for about 18 months. My mother-in-law vistied her every day, until one day she went abroad for a week. As soon as she left the country we got a message to say that she woulc be dead within 24 hours. Sure enough she was. I always believed something was denied her or done to her, as she died in more agony that I had ever seen her in over the preceeding months.
    Her daughter, (ie my mother in law), is currently in an extreme state of deterioration herself and has had breast cancer with both breasts removed and now has Parkinson's and often does not know who anyone is, and it is tragic to see. Nevertheless not one of us would ever consider doing anything to end her life, and she certainly is not in a state to decide that for herself.

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  83. Marty,

    Poleglass was bad and it was very much the same in the Murph. Some great kids ended their lives in such tragic circumstances.

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  84. Pt 1

    AM
    ‘Aristotle makes the case for the unmoved move or uncaused cause but this is all inference and fails to answer the question of what caused it.’

    JM
    Berlinski starts from the observation that when discussing what caused the universe you are compelled to answer ‘Something’. It is this ‘Something’ that is being discussed and we can build up a picture of it through a variety of means.

    We can, upon simple reflection on first principles, (those of Contradiction, Identity, Excluded Middle, Sufficient Reason, and Causality) when confronted with the (cosmological) evidence of our senses conclude to an Unmoved Mover, and Uncaused Cause, a Necessary Being, a Perfect Being and an Intelligent Designer.

    These, described by Peter Kreeft as ‘a slice of God’, are enough to refute atheism, but as yet only a beginning not an end.

    There are other arguments that are agreed by many to be fallacious, such as Anselm’s Ontological argument. There are psychological arguments going from similar premises proposed by Augustine and Descartes, with slightly more weight. Kant, Newman Lewis and Von Balthasar have their own psychological arguments which are convincing to many.

    There are countless other arguments of differing weight, based on experience, which are generally only convincing to those who have the experience.

    There are other strong arguments, eg., the Kalam Argument which insists that time must have a first moment. This would appear to be backed by such theories as that of the ‘Big Bang’.

    All of the above are supplemented by the historical arguments which convince most people. These are based on the testimony of Divine Revelation, but as taken as history, before attempting to make an act of faith. Above all the life of Christ is convincing to many, as He healed the sick, raised the dead and finally rose from the death. All this to fulfil prophecies made hundreds of years before and witnessed to the death by those closest to Him.

    This greatly increases the ‘thin slice of God’ proved by the Five Ways of Aquinas. Any one of Aquinas’ proofs refute atheism, together they are unassailable. When taken with the Kalam Argument and the historical and moral proofs they constitute absolute proof beyond which is available in any sphere of life. And none of this involves faith or supernatural religion at all.

    There is of course the merely practical argument of Pascal’s Wager which seems like a good beginning for someone who is prepared to bet on the question. To bet on God is something that could lead to eternal happiness, betting against Him could only ensure you will lose it even if you are wrong.

    AM
    ‘It can’t just be stated as fact. It cannot scientifically show god or philosophically that there is only one god. Plato only thought it proved gods rather than god.’

    JM
    If there could be two or more Gods existed they would be alike or not alike. If they are not alike they would have differing levels of perfection so at least one would not be infinitely perfect and therefore not God. If they are alike they would not be infinitely perfect as they would each lack what the other had and again not be God.

    AM
    ‘If someone can accept that god is a wafer, then they don’t really require much evidential proof in order to believe something.’

    JM
    The only proof we have of that is faith.

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  85. Pt 2

    AM
    ‘There is everything on which to ground ethics.’ (Without God)

    JM
    But in what can they be grounded? No Eternal Law, no Natural Law. Everything is then convention, but based on what? Why should good not be evil, what should compel anyone to act in anyway other than they chose? Why should not each make up his/her own morality?

    AM
    ‘This is why many atheists are much more ethical than believers.’

    JM
    Whilst that may be true, or may not, there seems to be no compelling reason why they should be.

    AM
    ‘Back to levels of proof. It can be proven to you that a wafer can be turned into god but for the bulk of us that sort of proof is rubbish.’

    JM
    No it cannot. Absolutely not, I accept that on faith alone, which is to believe without proof.

    AM
    ‘Countless others with much better minds have not been persuaded either.’

    JM
    But most, throughout history have been convinced that God can be seen through His works.

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  86. Alfie,

    I am pleased that you regard TPQ squad friends and take serious heart from you thinking it helped in some way to improve your position. The scientific debates about evolution and creation were stimulating and they served more purposes than we thought at the time. You can only do whatever gets you through the night but if a social network functions as a bulwark against the worst aspects of depression then you have one here.

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  87. SMH,

    ‘The real deal depression is not called 'the living death' for nothing.’

    So true. It is just that.

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  88. John,

    We have been over this ground so often to the point of it being tiresome. Alright for first year seminarians but both you and I have heard it all so many times before.

    ‘Berlinski starts from the observation that when discussing what caused the universe you are compelled to answer ‘Something’.

    But we don’t. Some think it infinite or timeless. The three main religions might argue for a linear approach whereas others see it as a circle and ask where does a circle begin or end. For those who say ‘something’ they have the problem of infinite regress which they have never explained other than calling halt and inserting god in a bid to stop ‘turtles all the way down.’ I have no idea other than that there is not the slightest scientific evidence of it having been started by a supernatural being. And most brilliant minds in the scientific community can find no such cause either. Minds like Hawking for example. You don’t have to defer to such minds as there are brilliant Christian scientists. The more important point is why if god can be proved it has not been proved to so many discerning minds and can be so easily proved to those who believe god is a wafer? That in itself says something about the varying standards of proof required.

    Moreover, out whole experience has been one of things starting small and growing larger. Evolution – both religious and atheistic – show this. Complexity always comes from something which is less complex; the human eye, the airliner. Yet you would ask us to accept that it is the other way round; that the airliner sort of created the wing nut. We go right back to the primitive and most basic of bacteria and are asked to suddenly interrupt that linear logic and find the most intelligent and complex being imaginable there. And then you expect us to perform all sorts of intellectual summersaults in order to make some sense of the irrationality of religion. Some of your arguments about god’s foreknowledge was sheer jabberwocky. It does not make sense and that is why it takes faith to believe it. Sense can’t make anything of it.

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  89. John McGirr,

    Victor J Stenger has made the point that if there is a god there would at least be some evidence for it in science particularly so if god has played such a pivotal role in both the universe and creation. Allow me to quote for brevity rather than for authority. I don’t believe in holy books, secular or otherwise.

    ‘Treating the traditional God concept, as conventionally presented in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions, like any other scientific hypothesis, Stenger examines all of the claims made for God's existence. He considers the latest Intelligent Design arguments as evidence of God's influence in biology. He looks at human behaviour for evidence of immaterial souls and the possible effects of prayer. He discusses the findings of physics and astronomy in weighing the suggestions that the universe is the work of a creator and that humans are God's special creation. After evaluating all the scientific evidence, Stenger concludes that beyond a reasonable doubt the universe and life appear exactly as we might expect if there were no God.’

    I look forward to reading the two books I have here by him. But for now the type of thinking ascribed to him shows that the case for god is really only demonstrable to those who believe in it anyway.

    And again the refutation of atheism is yet another religious myth. If it was so logically deducible, the thinking atheists in the scientific community would see it (like Stenger). They haven’t. And the believers in the scientific community would be more persuasive but they are not. Francis Collins, a believer, a great scientist, still relies on faith not science for his conclusions on god even though he has been trying to ‘peddle woo’ lately on fine tuning.

    Kung deals with the big bang and is certainly interesting on it, posing the question of what happened prior to it. But he can present no evidence of a god, only a presumption. And it leads to a situation where god is forced back further and further to hiding behind big bangs rather than bushes. God essentially is a matter of faith which you aptly sum up as belief without proof.

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  90. ‘Divine Revelation.’

    That’s when the argument descends into fairies at the bottom of the garden. I can comprehend why someone thinks it can’t all have come from nothing and opts to call their ignorance god whereas others just call theirs plain old ignorance. There are after all only two possibilities; god started it or didn’t. But when all this divine revelation comes into it, it is away with the fairies time.

    ‘Above all the life of Christ is convincing to many, as He healed the sick, raised the dead and finally rose from the death.’

    LOL is, I think, how the text language would phrase it. And is also a wafer. Seriously. He was hardly the only holy man peddling his wares at that time and in that part of the world to have done all these tricks. Today we know how magic works and few believe the magician is working miracles. Religious magicians can never perform these tricks in front of the cameras or in a lab.

    ‘This greatly increases the ‘thin slice of God’ proved by the Five Ways of Aquinas. Any one of Aquinas’ proofs refute atheism, together they are unassailable.’

    Again, wrong. They are only unassailable to those who want to believe them. Even if I were a believer I would still be forced to conclude that the arguments given by Aquinas are far from unassailable and in fact have been assailed for centuries even when one could be burnt for doing so. I used to think about these types of arguments a lot but they ended up making little sense to me. Scientific reasoning has made all the progress over the years rather than religious reasoning. I suppose that is why the religious are so fond of censoring ideas whereas the scientists are not. Although there is a dangerous trend within the atheist community such as manifested by Sam Harris – and which is very frightening because it is so like religion - which seems to question the right of people to believe what they want. He wants people tortured and in some cases killed for the beliefs they hold. So it is not just religious nutters who pose problems.

    Pascal’s Wager is hardly a proof of anything other than Pascal not wanting to take a chance.

    ‘If there could be two or more Gods existed …

    Thousands of them have existed and all of them man-made.

    On the wafer being god ‘the only proof we have of that is faith’

    But people who allow their reason to be subverted in such a manner don’t really take a lot of convincing of anything outlandish.

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  91. John McGirr

    Ethics ‘But in what can they be grounded? No Eternal Law, no Natural Law.’

    But all the ethics we possess have been produced by humankind. Some have pretended that they can interpret the mind of god and tell us that this or that is ethical. They know no more about the mind of god than I do. There is no natural law not devised or conceptualised by humankind.

    ‘Everything is then convention.’

    True, whether we like it or not.

    ‘but based on what?’

    The ethics that humanity has developed over the aeons; the evolution of altruism and the need to live socially

    ‘Why should good not be evil?’

    Look at religion and you can find all the evil you want. You may not agree with them but many, many people think the killing of Ronan Kerr evil. Others seem to think it good. Is the god given moral prescript on that the one you abide by? Are those who moralise that the killing of Ronan Kerr was good and that Ronan Kerr was evil, the only ones who are right on this matter? And why would an ethical god think they were good and just?

    Good and evil are concepts subject to human values. I think the notion of a god that did not prevent the Rwandan genocide or clerical rape of children is evil. Others like yourself do not.

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  92. John McGirr

    ‘what should compel anyone to act in anyway other than they chose?’

    A sense of cooperation and the social developed over the aeons of evolution; culture that sets humans apart from other species. That allows us to reason. I read recently that if the temperature drops for an extended period of evolutionary time we won’t grow more hair but will build better fire places! We can think. And still we don’t get it right. The supposed existence of god has not diluted the amount of evil in the world. And to think of all the evil followers god has.

    Jerry Coyne explains it the following way. I cite him not because his argument proves yours wrong but because he says it with more brevity than I can and it reflects what I feel is plausible.

    ‘Morality itself is not a problem for evolution: my own view is that it’s a combination of sentiments and behaviors that were evolutionarily advantageous in our ancestors, who lived in small groups that would promote some sort of morality, along with /reasoned morality:/ non-evolved sentiments that we have worked out through rational thought. It’s my contention, and I’ll have a piece out on this soon, that human morality reflects a combination of evolved behaviors and the rationality that was a fortuitous by-product of the big brain vouchsafed us by evolution. It’s hard to deny that reason itself can produce morality, for what humans see as “moral” has changed /drastically/ over the last few centuries. In many places ethnic minorities, gays, and women, for example, are treated much better than they were about 200 years ago. That change, and the sentiments behind it, could not have come from God (unless He changed his mind about slavery, women and homosexuals), nor from evolution either, for the transformation happened too fast to be explained by genetic change.’

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  93. John McGirr,

    ‘Why should not each make up his/her own morality?

    Many do. Look at the Vatican, thinking it more moral to protect the reputation of the church than to protect children from the rapists it harbours. You think spiking a wafer cum Eucharist is a greater crime than genocide. Those are moral values that you choose. I choose different and clearly much better ones. I think a priest raping a child is an infinitely worse crime that stabbing a wafer/host. But many stick to a moral code not because of god, who in the bible urges the murder of children, but for the simple reason that society would collapse and the individual’s place in it would not be secure. And many human beings accept that.

    many atheists are much more ethical than believers - ‘there seems to be no compelling reason why they should be.’ Absolutely. And many believers are much more ethical than atheists – but there is no compelling reason why they should be. It works both ways. The point is that religion has no claim whatsoever to being more moral than the non religious or other religious who hold a different religious opinion.

    ‘I accept that on faith alone, which is to believe without proof.’

    A fair enough point but how can you get so enraged about it and claim that people who have a different opinion based on proof are stooping lower than low or support a crime greater than any other? You have a religious opinion, others don’t. All society can do is allow us to hold our opinions but not permit us to inflict them on others.

    ‘But most, throughout history have been convinced that God can be seen through His works.’

    Just like the fairies at the bottom of the garden. Delusional.

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  94. John McGirr,

    Always be wary of how you answer questions because as you know people are being charged with expressing views on line that the cops don’t like. So feel under no obligation to respond.

    On Ronan Kerr ‘If it was not carried out by volunteers of the Irish Republican Army, there is no possible justification for it. If it was, it is not for me to say as I defer to the judgments of those who have charge of the Irish Republic.’

    Who has charge of the Irish Republic? And did we place them in that position? If not what obligation is anyone under to defer to their judgment?

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  95. AM,

    There are a couple of issues that I will get back to you on, arising from your last few posts. Meanwhile, just to take your last post:

    ‘Who has charge of the Irish Republic?

    In 1938 the surviving members of the Second Dáil delegated their authority to the Army Council. Similar statements were made in 1969 and 1987 by the then sole survivor, Thomas Maguire. There are a variety of groups which claim to be working under that authority and it may be that it is now a shared authority.

    ‘And did we place them in that position?’

    The powers were delegated by Sean O’Ceallaigh, George Count Plunkett, Professor William Stockley, Mary MacSwiney, Brian O’ hUiginn, Cathal O’Murchadha and Tomas Maguire on behalf of the people of Ireland.

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  96. John McGirr,

    ‘In 1938 the surviving members of the Second Dáil delegated their authority to the Army Council. Similar statements were made in 1969 and 1987 by the then sole survivor, Thomas Maguire. There are a variety of groups which claim to be working under that authority and it may be that it is now a shared authority.’

    What part of it is dealing with the health of the Republic, or its airports? Who in the current authority administers the education system?

    They are not in charge of the Republic and both you and they are deluded if either of you think they are. They don’t even have the authority to drive a bus. What sort of alternative world do you inhabit where all this make-believe has any relevance?

    ‘The powers were delegated by Sean O’Ceallaigh, George Count Plunkett, Professor William Stockley, Mary MacSwiney, Brian O’ hUiginn, Cathal O’Murchadha and Tomas Maguire on behalf of the people of Ireland.’

    Did the people of Ireland have any input into this decision by those operating on their behalf or is it just one more piece of make-believe and mysticism?

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  97. AM,

    JM “‘In 1938 the surviving members of the Second Dáil delegated their authority to the Army Council. Similar statements were made in 1969 and 1987 by the then sole survivor, Thomas Maguire. There are a variety of groups which claim to be working under that authority and it may be that it is now a shared authority.’”

    AM ‘What part of it is dealing with the health of the Republic, or its airports? Who in the current authority administers the education system?’

    The authority was delegated. It has been de facto usurped by two British States, and is currently ruled illegally by those who claim there are two States In Ireland.

    AM ‘They are not in charge of the Republic and both you and they are deluded if either of you think they are. They don’t even have the authority to drive a bus. What sort of alternative world do you inhabit where all this make-believe has any relevance?’

    This was believed by Provisional Sinn Féin and the wider Republican Movement until 1986, so I am not alone. Without such authority how do you differentiate the armed struggle from terrorism? That is why the recognition of Leinster House led to the inevitable collapse of armed resistance and the eventual recognition of Stormont led inevitably to its criminalisation.

    JM “‘The powers were delegated by Sean O’Ceallaigh, George Count Plunkett, Professor William Stockley, Mary MacSwiney, Brian O’ hUiginn, Cathal O’Murchadha and Tomas Maguire on behalf of the people of Ireland.’”

    AM ‘Did the people of Ireland have any input into this decision by those operating on their behalf or is it just one more piece of make-believe and mysticism?’

    They are the surviving representatives of the Irish Republic, elected by the Irish people whose authority was de facto usurped by two illegal States.

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  98. John McGirr

    AM,

    ‘This was believed by Provisional Sinn Féin and the wider Republican Movement until 1986, so I am not alone.’

    I recall very few in the Provisional Movement who believed it, dismissing it as republican theology. People were embarrassed by it. Do you really think we sat on the blanket protest thinking we were the government of Ireland? What sort of delusions would we have laboured under? The current army councils, as many as there may be, have no authority over the Republic whatsoever. It is all in the mind of a few who have no bearing whatsoever on what most other people believe.

    ‘Without such authority how do you differentiate the armed struggle from terrorism?’

    Quite easily. In as far as it is possible to pin down a definition of terrorism it is the deliberate targeting of civilians. But saying the armed struggle is not terrorism adds no legitimacy to the armed struggle whatsoever.

    ‘That is why the recognition of Leinster House led to the inevitable collapse of armed resistance.

    The demise of the armed struggle was planned well in advance of that.

    ‘The powers were delegated by Sean O’Ceallaigh, George Count Plunkett, Professor William Stockley, Mary MacSwiney, Brian O’ hUiginn, Cathal O’Murchadha and Tomas Maguire on behalf of the people of Ireland … They are the surviving representatives of the Irish Republic, elected by the Irish people whose authority was de facto usurped by two illegal States.’

    Which gives them no authority over us whatsoever. We decide who shall have authority over us. The notion that authority can be imposed on us by some sect that calls itself an army council is laughable. It becomes all the more ridiculous when it is treated with derision by the people it claims authority over. These people of authority, given that they even believe this nonsense, which I doubt, have all the authority over Ireland that Canute had over the sea.

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  99. AM,

    Do you accept the legitimacy of the 26 County State, stying itself the 'Irish Republic'?

    Do you accept the legitimacy of the 6 County State, styling itself 'Northern Ireland'?

    If you answer 'no' to both, where do you see that authority lies?

    If you answer 'yes' to first and 'no' to second, on what basis are you making this distinction?

    If you answer 'yes' to both, in what way are you a Republican that PSF, the Stoops or FF etc are not?

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  100. John McGirr,

    ‘Do you accept the legitimacy of the 26 County State, styling itself the 'Irish Republic'?

    It is The Irish Republic. Democratically mandated by the majority of Irish people as such. Authority always derives from the people. Me wishing it was a 32 county Irish Republic does nothing to negate that fact. My republican viewpoint allows me to dissent from it because it is not inclusive of everybody in the country. But because I dissent from something does not make what I dissent from illegitimate. It has been legitimised by the majority of Irish people. My dissent from it is also legitimate so long as I do not try to coerce my position through the democratic will.

    ‘Do you accept the legitimacy of the 6 County State, styling itself 'Northern Ireland'

    It is legitimate. I don’t like it but the majority of people of Ireland have mandated it such. And as I can’t persuade a substantial body of people to the contrary then I defer to the legitimacy of the national will while continuing to dissent from its expression.

    I remain a republican not because of anything to do with the future as republicanism has no future in my view. I am a republican because of the past. It is what I grew up with and spent my years in prison being. If Germany were to sink beneath the sea never to reappear Germany would have no future. But Germans would not cease being Germans. So it is with our mythical republic. It does not exist but it does not stop us claiming to be republicans.

    Republicans have a choice, either to behave like republicans and defer to the will of the people or to act like monarchists and pronounce themselves as having some authority not vested in them by the Irish people.

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  101. Anthony,

    I remain a republican not because of anything to do with the future as republicanism has no future in my view. I am a republican because of the past. It is what I grew up with and spent my years in prison being.

    But is this a good enough reason for remaining a republican? I mean, republicanism is something you choose to believe in; it is not the same thing as being German, black or gay. I could decide in the future that I don't like Ireland and want to leave it, but I can never change the fact that I'm Irish. On the other hand, it would be silly to cling wistfully to the Catholicism of my childhood now that I no longer believe in God. Republicanism is an ideology; you can renounce it if you don't believe in it anymore. There is no shame in changing your mind.

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  102. AM,

    'I remain a republican not because of anything to do with the future as republicanism has no future in my view.'

    If I thought that I would be a Shinner. They live on its past and don't see a future.

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  103. Alfie,

    the analogy is limited but not redundant. It serves the purpose of illustrating things that have no future.

    ‘But is this a good enough reason for remaining a republican?’

    It is a good enough reason to remain a republican given that being a republican is not a bad thing.

    ‘I mean, republicanism is something you choose to believe in.’

    It is, yes. It is also about what parts of it we choose to believe in. I believe in its past existence as a force that challenged repression despite its own less than salutary record; the comradeship of the prisons, in particular the protest years; the sacrifices made by so many that we continue to honour; much of its discourse and its function as a critique.

    ‘I don't like Ireland and want to leave it, but I can never change the fact that I'm Irish.’

    But it would have no meaning to you were you to choose to abandon the label Irish. It would only be something that other people would call you. People should be free to give up their nationality just as much as they are free to give up their religion. An Irish person might wish to redefine themselves as a European. Gays and Blacks are different categories in that the room for flexibility is much more circumscribed.

    ‘it would be silly to cling wistfully to the Catholicism of my childhood now that I no longer believe in God.’

    In any intellectual sense, yes, but it differs when you move to the cultural.

    ‘Republicanism is an ideology; you can renounce it if you don't believe in it anymore.’

    At one level it is an ideology, on another it is a cultural phenomenon, a history. That does not privilege it in any way or protect it from criticism. It merely emphasises that there are non-ideological reasons for being something. Social phenomena are often multi-dimensional, one element of which is ideological.

    ‘There is no shame in changing your mind.’

    But I don’t want to change my mind. Republicanism is not a monolith which must be swallowed in one bite.

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  104. Anthony,

    I think you do nuance better than me or John McGirr! Seriously though, do you still believe that a 32-county republic is a good thing? Would you vote for it in a referendum?

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  105. John McGirr

    It would be so easy for you to be a Shinner given that shared ability to believe nonsense.

    The problem with the Shinners is that they deny much of the past. They revise it and distort it beyond all recognition. And contrary to what you think they do see a future but it is not a republican one. The republican future you see, regrettably, is like the afterlife you also see. Those Shinners who believe in god must have prayed ‘Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And god gave them you!

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  106. AM,

    ‘The problem with the Shinners is that they deny much of the past.’

    Similar to how you deny and deride what was accepted as mainline Republican beliefs prior to the take-over by such luminaries as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.

    ‘They revise it and distort it beyond all recognition. And contrary to what you think they do see a future but it is not a republican one.’

    So neither you nor PSF see a Republican future. Given that you do not believe there is a Republican future in what way is your position different to any other constitutional part such as PSF or the SDLP, Fiana Fáil, the ‘Republican Party’?

    ‘The republican future you see, regrettably, is like the afterlife you also see.’

    As it was to the men of 1916, who aptly chose Easter as a time of new life, motivated by the Resurrection of Christ. It seems to me that you have lost more than one faith. My position, on both politics and religion can be summed up in the old saying:

    “We are what you once were.
    We believe what you once believed.
    We worship as you once worshipped.
    If you were right then, we are right now.
    If we are wrong now, you were wrong then.”

    Hence I reject the bastardised ‘Republicanism’ of PSF and the bastardised 'Catholicism' of those who defected at the Second Vatican Council.

    ‘Those Shinners who believe in god must have prayed ‘Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And god gave them you!’

    You flatter me, Anthony. I don’t figure on their radar, have no communication with them and do not run a Blog. The fact that my views express what they once believed in, and you apparently never did, will hardly make them notice me.

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  107. St John,

    patron saint of the demented!!

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  108. AM,

    The 'ad hominem' is always useful when lost for a response.

    I'll try for a third time;

    Given that you do not believe there is a Republican future in what way is your position different to any other constitutional party such as PSF, the SDLP, or Fianna Fáil, the ‘Republican Party’?

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  109. John McGirr,

    too busy watching the news about priests raping kids in Cloyne to do much else in terms of giving you a response. But if you are not clever enough to figure it out then I won't do the work for you.

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  110. AM,

    'But if you are not clever enough to figure it out then I won't do the work for you.'

    Your tendency to rudeness towards those who disagree with you has not gone unnoticed.

    I have worked it out. You are currently no more of a Republican than the Shinners are. You, like they, have quit and have become constitutionalists. I respect you for your past, but you can't live on that forever.

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  111. John McGirr,

    say a Hail Mary for me

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  112. John McGirr,

    OK, Anthony is mocking you a bit, but I can't see why you think there is something incongruous about being a non-violent republican. Armed republican campaigns were mounted several times in the past and all failed to achieve the goal of a 32-county republic. Whatever popular support existed in the past for such campaigns has long since disappeared. So why can't a republican argue that further violence is pointless? Why should holding that belief invalidate his/her republicanism?

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  113. Alfie,

    ‘OK, Anthony is mocking you a bit, but I can't see why you think there is something incongruous about being a non-violent republican.’

    I don’t think there is anything incongruous about it at all.

    ‘Armed republican campaigns were mounted several times in the past and all failed to achieve the goal of a 32-county republic.’

    But today they are being repudiated in principle, not tactically.

    ‘Whatever popular support existed in the past for such campaigns has long since disappeared.

    Support will come and go. This is a low period, where all that can really be achieved is to keep the pilot light alight, and show the world that British rule is not accepted.

    ‘So why can't a republican argue that further violence is pointless?’

    The tactical use of ‘non-violence’ is not wrong at all. If an attempt to rule our armed-resistance on principle then I would disagree, but I don’t dispute that it is a valid position to hold.

    ‘Why should holding that belief invalidate his/her republicanism?’

    It shouldn’t and doesn’t. Many Republicans hold that view. Good luck to them. But Anthony said Republicanism has no future. If I were to say that I remain a Catholic because of my youth, but it has no future, I would take that as apostasy. I can’t see that you can say Republicanism is something in the past, without a future, adopt constitutional politics and yet claim somehow you are not like other parties who have done exactly that. Anthony has said he accepts the legitimacy of both British States in Ireland. That is what I reject, and not his espousal of ‘non-violence’.

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  114. Alfie,

    ‘do you still believe that a 32-county republic is a good thing? Would you vote for it in a referendum’

    I would vote for it. I can think of no reason to vote against it.

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  115. I would vote against a 32 county republic if any church was given the authority that the rc church was given in the 26 Anthony,and as it turned out wouldnt that be a bad mistake for the people to make again.

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  116. Marty,

    I understand that. However, I was referring to the situation today. The criminal Church is reeling like never before.

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  117. Anthony and may it reel all the way to its hell,criminal is the proper description of that bunch of perv,s mo cara.

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