Another good laugh but not so funny,I see psf minister Murphy is playing jobs for the boys by appointing Martin O Muilleoir Belfast businessman, ha ha yeah right,Daily Ireland springs to mind,as an non executive director to the board of N.I water, O Muilleoir will be paid the industrail wage of approx £24k a year for less than 2 days work a month.and of course this money will not find its way back into the partys coffers, yip for effective local leadership, votail psf my arse!
An article in the A Town, today accusing 'dissidents' of obtaining money through crime. The accusations were made by an unnamed source. No doubt, too scared people will split their sides laughing.
Marty, they are cosying up to the Orange Order behind closed doors.
Speaking of cosying up, would you not give Barbara a ring. Said she cannot contain herself around bearded men. Thought you might be at a loose end with Marie away?
A man was walking along a beach when suddenly in a booming voice god said"because you,ve been faithful to me in all waysI,ll grant you one wish" "build me a bridge to Hawaii"said the man god said"its an enormous undertaking to build over an ocean,it would use up all the steel and concrete in the world,I can do it but its hard to justify,is there anything else that you can think of that I can do to help mankind?" the man thought for a bit then said "I wish all men could understand women I want to know what shes thinking when I get the silent treatment,why she cries,what she means when she says nothing is wrong and how can I make her truley happy?" god says....you want 2 lanes or 4 on that f##kin bridge
Must be near july..agh da costa blanca is magenafico...come on them fenian SPANISH tell da biggots hi from us and our Iranian and Spanish tapas bar hosts..miss em, not a jot, har de har har Adios Englatera..loved that goal ..ooops not...all the ingerlit wth irish granny wer very loud in Murphys..for a while ..rest of us were just smug..still are.
Robert your way of the mark there mo cara, the pic by our brill Brian is of people closer to possibily yourself than any of us,and of course if you were to ask them are you Irish you would probably be kicked and stomped to death (not the first time) to show you how loyal to Queen and country they are, we have had to endure your fellow countrymen and women for 800 years and as you can see from the pic they havent changed much, so if we stop taking the piss out of the English national team, will you take your relations home please.!!!
Futhermore re the neanderthals who pledge their loyalty to Queen and country ,while like everywhere else the people here have to face massive cutbacks in public spending,schools not being built ,hospitals closing and yet these thugs and yesterdays men are being giving grants by Belfast council and the others to basically carry out illegal environmental acts like the burning of tyres etc and in one praticular case at the gates of a cancer hospital ,I ask ya,!I can assure you Robert that there is neither anything cultural or entertaining at these drunking orgies, and the clean up cost to the councils are enormous.kind makes you glad to be British eh Robert
Robert, no hurls, just sashes and bowler hats. I don't know whether you were being genuinely unfunny or defending the Orangemen? If it is the latter, I would just like to ask. Why do we still have to up with this lot in our own country, when an English Chief Constable said he would not tolerate them in his?
At last an honest portrayal of how the English view the Irish it must be rough on the Orange Order living proof that even god makes mistakes. Great cartoon “intelligent by design” is joking blasphemy?
`I don't know whether you were being genuinely unfunny or defending the Orangemen? If it is the latter, I would just like to ask. Why do we still have to put up with this lot in our own country, when an English Chief Constable said he would not tolerate them in his? The answer to the question you pose is quite simple because it is also their country. On what basis would you claim to have exclusive ownership as is implied by this statement?. The Chief Constable would have no choice but to tolerate a perfectly legal organisation regardless of his personal opinions where all legal requirements had been met in terms of assembly or anything else.
My apologies for winding you up - please come down and we will engage in some debate and perhaps a little light hearted repartee. I withdraw my earlier comment given it's evident offence to you and Fionnuala. Considering that the Ulster Unionists have been successful in enduring all that Irish Republicanism could throw at them I hardly think they will want to move `home' at my behest. Hard as it may be for you to accept the people you so lovingly refer to as neanderthals are in fact home.
Robert a cara,the Ulster Unionist population have successfully endured all that Irish republicianism has thrown at them!Hmmm my reading of things would be contary to that oponion, the six county state of Norn Iorn was brought about by the threat of force,and through the 20s and 30s the nationalist population had to endure continious secterain onsaults,the Mc Mahon family come to mind here , yes my friend on the 23rd March 1922 5 members of the Mc Mahon family and a lodger were murdered by a loyalist murder squad set up by the unionist party and led by RIC inspector John Nixon,who later was to be elected to parliament and awarded an MBE by King George for his valuable service, then we endured the Special powers act,a piece of draconian legislation described as an overkill and Dr Verwoerd of the apartheid S African goverment stated he would gladly scrap 811 of his repressive legislation for just one regulation of the special powers act,this my friend along with discrimination in housing ,employment we endured through to the late 60,s when a new generation of young people inspired by events worldwide and in America in praticular began to demand civil rights, and the Unionst response was as always beat them of the streets,introduce internment ,torture, degrading treatment, ,but this time the world was watching, and the young people of the North were off their knees and there was no going back down,we endured the lies about Mc Gurks bar watched as UDR/UVF members massacared the Miami showband endured Bloody Sunday and subsequent cover up, Dublin/Monaghan bombings, thousands of homes wrecked and lives shattered by the proxies of the brit goverments i.e RUC/UDR/UDA/UVF, Then yesterday we had to endure that waster Mc Crea crying crocidle tears for victims here in Westminster, the place that orchestrated so much of the misery here and Mc Crea a man of dubious character ,who has shared platforms with one of the most notorious secterian killers here i.e Billy Wright,yes my friend I can see why the people of England want them to stay put who the hell would want wasters like that in their country,sorry to say Robert we can have a banter about almost anyting glad to oblige and we can laugh at each other , but as for the orange order well my friend ,frankly I cant see anything funny about those eejits,other than Brians brill pic
Robert Ulster Unionists may fly the Red Hand of Ulster which is an historical “Irish” symbol for that I thank you. They can kick the pope in their zealot bigotry but when they arrive in that foreign land of England they get culture shock as all we Paddies sound the same. Keep the orange dream going Holland is in the world cup King Billy will be there in gay spirit. Hiding under the guise of a religious order is a joke as the Orange Order is purely anti catholic its followers display a lack of Christian morals with their blatant hatred of Catholics keep promoting the legal sectarian movement. Remarkable the rag tag rabble of a few republicans back in 69 with a few guns threw everything at the superior Orange State how shameful the masters could not crush the rabble. King Billy would not be amused at such a letdown. Worse, even when the mighty British army backed the Orange State they brought greater shame as the rabble republicans still managed to embarrass and disgrace the far superior armies of the Union. Even more shameful the Orange Order now is under scrutiny with those interfering Catholics in those disgraceful parade commissions. Shocking situation this farcical British imposed law trying to tell proud loyalists where they can and can’t march in their own homeland, honestly who do these bloody British government people think they are. Oh wait they are your leaders I hardly think your beef is with the taigs this time can’t blame them. Face the reality the Orange Order is nothing but a corrupt blight on the Protestant faith, I read the Protestant bible and confess I own an expensive version of one as the art work is beautiful but have not been able to find anything thing in it that promotes sectarianism. Maybe the Orange Order Bible says different. Anyway keep on marching as its entertaining I love the John Steed look alike completion with the bowler hat and umbrella you remember that aul show The Avengers. Don’t take it so seriously mucker this whole peace issue has us all confused republicans fighting republicans, loyalists fighting loyalists if you ask me the Brits are just messing with our heads just like the cartoon suggests they see the loyalist paddies and the republican paddies as thick. Just for the record I hate that St. Paddy’s day lark enjoy your parade Robert and be sure to return with a wee post hopefully it will pass peacefully. Enjoying the banter between you and Marty not being biased I think Marty is winning with historical facts.
Good evening.Having read your reply I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's observation that,` Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it' I too could provide an alternative condensed history of N.Ireland with specific dates of countless atrocities carried out by republicans ad nauseum. My view on how and why the state was formed obviously differs however I am glad that it has not shaped my opinion to an extent where I would view my fellow countrymen and women as sub human. Your use of words such as `neanderthals' and praise of nazisque satirical depictions leads me to no other conclusion. I cannot comment on the unfounded allegations you make against the late Billy Wright given the absence of any evidence.
Just a few checks to authenticate that expensive Bible as being Protestant. Only a King James version, note that I am not referring to King James II, can be viewed as truly Protestant. That authentification should be located at the front of your bible. I am suspicious of your mention of artwork.
`They can kick the pope in their zealot bigotry...' Very topical of you to have mentioned the pope as £12 million is abit much to spend on security for his visit to the UK but if the kids are safe for a few days it will be money well spent. Surely even the Huns can't disagree with that?
What I find really amusing about the whole twelth charade is the fact neither of the two Kings James or William hadn't the slightest bit of interest in this place.
What is even more amusing, is the fact, that the Brits never rated Billy as a king or anything else for that matter. Bigots to the core like their chums over here, they were simply determined to ensure a Catholic never sat on an English throne.
Why did they not just cart James off to the tower? Think of what we would have been spared if they had!
Hope they have a peaceful day. Think of how peaceful it would be if a few roads opened up beneath them.
You may be surprised to learn that infact King James II was a Catholic who sat on the thrown and as history records made a hash of it by attempting to enforce Catholicism on his subjects. The only reason he was'nt taken to the tower was the fecker could run too fast. Another interesting fact is that his Irish supporters referred to him as `Seamus an Chaca' or `James the Shithead' following his desertion of them at the Boyne.
Robert a cara, I totally agree with you re the popes visit to Prefidious Albion hope he gets sent to the tower and of with his head,and all the greasy pervie priests and vicars and dickie dodgers as well top them all , never mind their human rights save the kids.you probably are aware re William that there is a painting of him being blessed by the pope,hiding or was hiding in Belfast city hall, also again mo cara your so right about James an chaca, when asked by Lady Tirconnell asked who won the the battle ,he said that the cowardly Irish ran away, to which the lady retorted"I see your majesty won the race" re Billy king rat there is plenty of evidence about the nefarious activities of that man and lots of people believe he was not a rouge loyalist but acting under orders from either special branch or probably higher up, I think his father may uncover the truth yet,also evidence of his activities can be found in many graveyards, now you say that because we are in praise of nazisque satirical depictions ie Brian Mors captions, well a cara I am not an expert on political or social cartoons Brian would be the one to ask there,but Brians pics look to me a kinda soft version of the cartoons depicting the Oirish in your countrys Punch mag 1841 and if you look at some of the cartoon characters depicted then you will see what your fellow country men thought of us Irish sub human would be to kind a word,the orange orders main purpise in life was/is to act as the unionist boot boys ie,to remind the indigenous population that they are the victors of some long ago genocide,hence the need to march /trample all over areas where they neither live or are wanted,refusing to discuss with their neighbours about unwanted parades puts these people imo in the realm of the neanderthals,I met a genie today who granted me one wish I told the genie I wanted to live forever,"sorry" said the genie "I,m not allowed to grant wishes like that" "fine" says I "I want to die only after England win the world cup" "you crafty f##ker "said the genie
Robert, there is nothing that would surprise me in relation to the Battle of the Boyne. I actually taught the module during my short lived teaching career out in Lisburn.
Know enough about it, to know that what goes on here every year is more shambolic than symbolic.
Loved the kids in the school though and we had some laughs during my time there.
I also taught them about the famine and considering many of the kids were from a tough working- class Protestant estate they were brilliant.
The existence of a painting of King William III being blessed by the Pope is news to me and will be to many people - did Michael Henry tell you this? Surely if such a painting did exist it would have been produced long before now. In any event it would not be factual. With reference to Punch, you may not be aware that Sir Edward Carson was lampooned also in it's depictions of the Irish. Your description of the Orange Order as,`the unionist boot boys' is an interesting observation given the widely held view within the Unionist community that infact the Order is weak. The reality is Marty that Orangemen could'nt give a monkeys if a Catholic was'nt within a thousand mile radius of any of their parades. Their presence is an irrelevance to the purpose of Orange/loyalist parades. Only a minority of the annual parades held during the marching season are in fact organised by the Orange Order today. The so called `parades issue' has it's recent origins in an ill conceived Sinn Fein strategy, if I am not mistaken attribuated to your mate big Bob doh head. The problem for those it has marched to the top of the hill is, of course, that it now needs to coax them back down again. Enter Spike et al. Not so much like the grand old duke as a Tory government in that, `they have yet to take up a cause that they have'nt betrayed in the end.'
Robert a cara how the hell are ya,if anyone in the N/east knows the whereabouts of gunman Raoul Moat,can you tell him that John Terry Frank Lampard,Ashley Cole and Wayne Rooney also shagged his girlfriend......on a lighter note my friend the painting of William of orange by Dutch master Pietier Van der Meulen which protrays William and his generals being blessed by pope Innocent XI before the battle of the Boyne certainly does exist, Now enter extreme right wing bigot RUC inspector ,unionst mp John Nixon.he led a gang of loyalists in 1934 into Stormont where this painting hung and they slashed the painting with a knife and threw crimson paint over it,the painting was taken down and removed for restoration it was never seen again,and valued at over £500k.William of orange was in fact funded by the pope,who funded his victories at the Boyne and the battle of Aughrim.when news of the Boyne victory reached the pope and leaders of his allies in the leauge of Augsberg,prayers and songs were sung in the Catholic cathedrals, I refer you to Pope cut out of orange history by Sean Mac Mathuna,If orangemen couldnt give a monkeys if a Catholic wasnt within a thousand mile radius of any of their parades,then why do we have the yearly spectacle of the orange orders trying to push a parade down the Garvaghy rd and the Ormeau rd,and through Workman Ave then on to the Springfield rd and also past the Ardoyne ,I put it to you that the reason is simply that theres no point in bateing the crap outa the big drum if it aint annoying taigs,I agree with you psf seen an issue that had the nationalist community seething and they exploited it, and if the truth be told the loyal orders played right into psf/prms hands, the refusal to talk (we dont talk o terrorists oh jaysusss how clean are we)to community leaders, or simply show leadership and reroute contenious parades,the orange order used to march in Andytown ,they dont now Robert times change the leaders in the orders need to change with them, personally I think they should just f##k off along with the AOH,I also agree that psf have now as part of the establishment are trying to extricate themselves from the Pandoras box they and the orders have created unfortunatley its to late for the Dukes of York ,their attempts alongside the DUP at bringing in legislation regarding parades has united all sections of the community in opposition to it,they will have egg on their faces before this is all over and I cant wait to see it,Anyway mo cara my baps getting hard here and the tea is turning orange ffs
Robert a cara ,may I be the first to say well said that man ,excellent,I,m not so sure about the orthopedic shoe bit though!,think I,ll keep walking one foot on the road and the other on the footpath,Anyway my friend from disputing the presence of any such painting, you have come back not only confiriming such a painting does exist but with a fuller history than which I could, without research could provide,I for one accept all that you say regarding this picture, but a cara and here is the rub imo,when a painting with such tenuous links to a pope can elicit such an extreme and bigoted reaction ,must say something about that type of unionist mentality,Nixon a man of bloody history facilitated this attack and at least no one died,while I believe that this type of sectaian hatred shown was allowed to forment among sections of the loyalist people ,to be used when and were their unionst masters would require a bit of thuggery to keep the Taigs subdued,i.e Gusty Spence.the Shankill butchers. etc, as far as William the gay orangeman and Seamus an chaca both strangers to Irish soil and who glady spilt Irish blood in a european dispute and the pope are concerned i,d gladly piss on all their graves,the legacy of lies and hatred they left has generations of Irishmen/women locked in a bitter and outdated sectarian dispute. that is why I believe and hopefully you as well that for the sake of future generations we must shake of the shakles of this religious bigotry that infests this country and confine all these organisations to the dustbin of history. Anyway Robert did you say it was your round ffs these glasses have been empty for ever!!
Robert, would totally disagree with you that the Loyalist marchers count not 'give a monkey if a Catholic was not in a thousand mile radius'
Their entire marching season is essentially triumphalistic. I grew up in a mixed street and I seen and heard them first hand prior to the marching season. Many of the things we were exposed to as children still angers me to this very day. Their hatred and the extent of it was not only scary it was obscene.
They care that Catholics were there to witness their antics alright, that was part of the fun of it. When I think back to all of it, I think, is it any wonder this place ignited, how much more of their crap did they expect us to take?
About William and the Pope, if my memory serves me right, not only did Pope Innocent support William. The lighting of the bonfires, is supposedly a celebration of how the Vatican lit up to celebrate his victory.
Hope that teabag was in the cup longer than England? I have to say again that I am surprised to learn that a painting of King William III being blessed by Pope Innocent XI exists. The work you refer to has an interesting history however you repeat a number of glaring inaccuracies you may have read in the Andersonstown News but which are particularly evident in Sean Mac Mathuna's unscholarly, `Pope cut out of orange history'. Firstly, there is no mystery surrounding the fate of this painting. Currently it is in William Hay's office at Stormont having been restored, stored and removed to the public records office in 1975 - 1983. The Ulster Museum having researched the painting have concluded not only was it not the work of Pieter van der Muelen but the figure featured on the white horse was,nt even William but a minor German prince. It has been critically observed that,`The story that Pieter van der Muelen was a court painter to William of Orange and that the Stormont painting was his originated with whoever sold the picture to James Craig’s government in the first place and has been accepted as fact ever since. Not only was Pieter van der Muelen an obscure painter of little talent, but also his authorship of this painting and its subject-matter are questionable. No one has found his signature on the painting, and there are no obvious indications, by way of a coat of arms or symbols, as to the identity of the subject. Even the flags carried by the officers are imprecise. Furthermore, this depiction does not resemble any of the other well-known portraits of King William III, who is usually portrayed on a bay horse, if at all, and as bareheaded or wearing a fashionable broad-brimmed hat, not a helmet as here. In fact, the tricorn worn by the officer to the right would indicate an eighteenth-century date for this painting.There is no evidence that he painted at William of Orange’s court, let alone that he was the official court painter. He was the younger brother of Adam Frans van der Muelen (1632–90), to whom he was apprenticed. Adam Frans was a celebrated painter of battle scenes; Louis XIV, whom he was allowed to accompany on some of his campaigns, admired his work'. The painting was bought on speculation,unseen and with false expectation that it depicted Williams landing at Carrickfergus by Lord Craigavon, Sir Norman Stronge and Dame Dehra Parker. It,s unveiling was highly controversial due to the presence of the pope and a Franciscan Friar with rosary beads. While John Nixon MP did not personnally deface the painting he certainly facilitated it.Charles Forster, a Glasgow city councillor, threw red paint, while Mary Ratcliffe slashed it with a knife. For this they were arrested and fined £65 at Downpatrick Court. Again Mathuna gets things terribly wrong. Initially stating that Nixon led his attack on the painting in 1934 he goes on to describe how Nixon noticed the paintings contents on the 8th March 1933 and,`Seven weeks later Nixon and his gang attacked the painting. No action was taken against Nixon, and the matter was quietly forgotten'. I will leave the chronology for you to work out Marty but hope that this clears up the matter for you.
The lighting of beacons as opposed to bonfires were actually to confirm Williams landing. There is currently movement on establishing `willow beacons'. The more environmentally friendly aspect of willow beacons I personally agree with but again this will not be achieved through attempting to make all aspects of our culture issues of contention.
Mine's an orange and make it a bitter one! Fair point but given Protestant perceptions on how they have been treated by the Church of Rome since the Reformation the reaction appears proportionate. Indeed Unionists are not alone in our reaction to artwork. Of course I am referring to the IRA destruction of Lord Gough's monument in the Phoenix Park, the William of Orange statue in College Green and the King George II statue in St Stephen's Green. Dublin's most prominent monument, Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell Street, was blown up by Saor Eire in 1966, as their way of commemorating the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Rising. Not to mention the destruction of Walkers Pillar on Derry,s Walls. Would you class this as bigotry or an excessive artistic critique? I agree that religion has had a profound and malvolent effect on all of us but even if this is removed from the equation we are still left with the questions of nationality and ethnicity.
Robert mo cara,is there any other kind of orangeman,hope the blisters arent doing your head in , as for the removal of the afore mentioned monuments,you will find that this is common practice among liberated people who have shaken of the yoke of the oppressor 800 years in another mans land was long enough,in the case of the semi-liberated area of Ireland,what the invader didnt destroy he occupied,I use the term semi -liberated when refering to the 26 counties because a lot of hoora Henry,s were allowed to stay put instead of being repatriated,ach I hear you say what about Walkers pillar,that was in the uk, but my reply to you would be my blistered friend is the removal was in anticapation of liberation which sadly to say because of Mc Guinness and Adams has been put back considerably,
Robert, this is not culture and that is the problem.
Liberal multi-culturalists, who advocate we must adopt to other peoples' cultures compare the Orange Order to the Klu Klux Klan.
Neo-Liberal culturalism is about as laid back as it gets. They do not believe that other races or creeds should assimilate into the host culture, rather they believe in live and let live, whereby people should be free to express their own faith and culture, within reason of course.
Yet they have serious issues with what goes on here during the marching season!
I am aware that such comparisons have been made however the fact that the Orange Order has lodges in countries such as Ghana, Tonga and Cameroon with many visiting coloured members involved in various parades throughout N.Ireland annually creates a major problem for that particular chesnut. Maybe you could explain the Klu Klux Klan/Orange Order model to me in more specific detail and allow me to explain why I think you are wrong.
Unionists are not a homogeneous group so the answer to your rhetorical question is that there are many different kinds of Orangemen. Sorry to hear liberation has been put back indefinately - heres me gearing up for 2016.
Just an afterthought. Did you hear about the new dare devil - Klu Klux Knievel. He,s going to attempt to jump 12 African Americans with a steam roller!
Aye Robert and the council rewarded him for laying 30 yds of tarmac with cats eyes!!!!!! as for 2016, no sweat Robert not unless you believe the great pretender i.e.the bearded one, and if you do my friend you,ll find yourself in a very small minority,you may come back at me with a retort about the mandate that Gerry Itwasntme has but I believe the people of west Belfast voted not for policy but peace at any price and if you had stuck a tricolour on a Toblerone they would have voted for that en masse,and like his psf contains nuts and honeyed words and not very nice!as for worldwide orangemen well there,s no counting on people,s tastes the poor buggers must live miserable lives when all they can aspire to in life is to wear a bowler hat!!!!!
On MM, socially I never had any difficulty with him. It is the urge to censor and control what people think that I find irksome with him. So what if people don’t agree with his perspective or oppose SF – let all views contend. Free inquiry can lead to some very strained situations but a world without it is a form of hell. How can anything be measured in its absence?
Never imagined it – they would be debating authentic bibles on my blog! It is what you get when everything goes.
Robert, we have had enough maniacs objecting to cartoons over the years without you adding your shoulder to their wheel.
The credibility of the argument starts to wane when the Billy Wright culpability is not confronted head on. A bit like the Gerry denials. In both cases we know what they were and discussion is hardly furthered by taking refuge behind legalisms.
`Never imagined it – they would be debating authentic bibles on my blog! It is what you get when everything goes' We did'nt actually get any debate on the bible subject. Unfortunately my enquiry created the `Tumbleweed Effect' for some reason? I sincerely hope that expensive artwork Tain Bo referred to was'nt a back issue of the `Dandy'? I have no objection to satirical doodling, just think the use of the dead for humour is a pretty poor show. Equally I don't agree with censorship, Heine was frighteningly accurate when he said, "Wherever they burn books, in the end,they will also burn human beings too." Be it in our minds or upon a fire the dangers are the same. Thank you for the invitation. Will address the culpability issue you raise in a seperate reply
I thought Monty Python,s Life Of Brian was dead funny Robert!Heine also said"I,ve never seen an ass who talked like a human being,but I,ve met many human beings who talked like asses!while you look at Billy Wrights culpability,could you comment on Paisley snr and co ,for sure a lot of questions still need to be asked about the role these people played in our recent dirty past!would you agree?
Nuala I remember that eejit running around the Ard Fheis many many years ago he was on a self promotional thing then as a gaelgoir, running aroud sticking stickers on peoples coffee cups with the slogan leabhair gaelic liom, not so much as an enthusiastic Irish speaker more imo as someone looking to be noticed, in those far of days the arrogance was mainly confined to the fact that he had the teanga, but as he crawled up the greasy pole he cultivated the powerful and wealthy, becoming a total mouth for Itwasntme and clinging to that wealthy chemist and property devoloper to advance his social status,and yes hon your description of him as a pompous arrogant git is as about as close as one can get a ragged trouser philanthropist he aint
A futher afterthought re the said MM ,Nuala I would agree Anthony would be more of an intellectual match for that man, me I just prefer to kick him in the nuts!!!
Marty, have to agree Mr Mc Intyre has so much more social etiquette than us.
I too remember MM early and very awkward entrance into the movement. He was then a friend of the man who declared 'Stakeknife' would be proven totally innocent, Michael Flannagan.
I think the 'Dark' would have described these people the way he described Hartley, 'coat trailers, hangers on' They could not have laced people like Brendan's boots, even in his worst times he was a giant in comparrison to them.
Yet, as you say Marty it paid off, they managed to hold on to the greasy pole.
A sharp and witty retort. You leave me no option but to open my Imelda Markos walk in wardrobe of `orthopedic shoes'. With the exception of that famous quote I'm not familiar with the works of Heine but can concur with the Psalmist in this instance that, ` `the parable in the mouth of the fool is like the limb of a lame man'
Robert,Anthony says stay with us the banter is something else, kind got me thinking, why dont the loyal orders start up their own tv channel, you know like that Dave one they advertise it as the home of witty banter ,if the orders had their own channel they could maybe advertise it as the home of bitter w##kers
No need to apologise for the typo, I appreciate your good manners. I suppose you could have suffered a Fruedian slip and typed in `retard' `Roibeard' will do me fine, particularly if I ever visit my fellow bigots on Na h'Eileanan Siar and in particular An Leodhas. I think I will pass on the advice if you don't mind - hope you are not alluding to violence Marty? I have heard it said that violence is the repartee of the illiterate. Here you go mate - have another slice of reality pie, it's on the house.
`The credibility of the argument starts to wane when the Billy Wright culpability is not confronted head on. A bit like the Gerry denials. In both cases we know what they were and discussion is hardly furthered by taking refuge behind legalisms' As a self proclaimed former member of the IRA I recognise your ability to comment authoritatively on the position of Gerry Adams within that organisation and as to the actions that have been attribuated to him. When Marty throws another individual's name into the mix, in this instance Billy Wright, that position changes considerably from someone with intimate insider knowledge to someone with a media informed opinion. If you are stating that he was a Loyalist paramilitary figure then of course it would be ridiculous of me to attempt to construct a denial of that. The statement,`one of the most notorious secterian (sic) killers here i.e Billy Wright...' to be credible, surely needs to be underpinned by something more substantial than hearsay. I seek no refuge in legalisms however I would view your reference to culpability as significant. Given your views on religion I take it you are referring to legal and not moral culpability. Accordingly, `In common law legal systems, conviction of a person in absentia, that is in a trial in which they are not present to answer the charges, is held to be a violation of natural justice. Specifically, it violates the second principle of natural justice, audi alteram partem'
Robert a cara,in a week or so I hope to back in Na h,Eileanan Siar , while I find Dundee especially the grey stonework drab and dreary, the people brighten up the place, Aberdeen is a little brighter and a busy oil centre ,but my love is open and wild spaces and no lovelier than the western isles, therefore Robert to appreciate such beauty I for one dont believe there is a bigoted bone in your body,and remember my friend ,There are only two tragedies in life,one is not getting what one wants,and the other is getting it ,your mate Oscar Wilde,and as we are in the Scotish mood a wi bit o Rabbie Burns, Inspiring bold John Barleycorn,What dangers thou canst make us scorn!wi tippenny,we fear nae evil;wi usquebae,we,ll face the devil,
See Nuala see!! ,thats what ya get when ya try talking to the other side they go an hit ya with Latin an all, I told ya just kick him in the nuts!!!Where the hell is Mick Hall? ya can never get a dummy tit when you need one!, I suppose Robert if we listen to the other side it is going to sound an awful lot like an echo, possibly we can be sure when we make statements about the likes of Billy Wright, although they may not stand up in a court nevertheless it doesnt make them less true,and why we can make these statements is because we have seen to many similarities on this side to be certain that a badun can spotted a mile off,and Robert, Billy Wright was a budun.mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa
"et prout vultis ut faciant vobis homines et vos facite illis similiter" `That Marty is a very bad man'. `How do you know , well I read it in the Sunday World, and anyway our Liam says that Paddy overheard Seamus and Sean talking about him so it must be true. `Quick get out of my way,someone needs to tell Brian Rowan about this!'
Aye Robert ,but do it first!Arma potentius aequum,I for one and I know most who would visit this free and open blog,would not base their opinions on mere hearsay,nor would they diminish a persons character by repeating what we read in the newspapers,my opinions like our friends on this blog are formed by what those in the media call reliable sources,also most of our disgust is aimed primarily at those from this side of the divide i.e Adams and his cohorts in psf,and my friend as I stated at the top justice is more powerful than weapons and that is what most of us seek
"my opinions like our friends on this blog are formed by what those in the media call reliable sources.." EUREKA!! I can now understand why your opinions are invested with what communications theorist Marshall McLuhan referred to as, "artifical perceptions and arbitrary values" on many of the issues we have discussed.
Robert a cara Marshall Mc Luhan and all due respect to the man ,is as you say a theorist, now thats not a man who deals in fact if I,m not mistaken but rather someone who theorizes! now my friend where I,m coming from and what I,m aware of is what I,see and hear and experience for myself is what forms my perception of the world around me, you say I have arbitary values ,do you mean I,m unreasonable or that my views are unsupported, again my friend these views of mine come from the university of hard knocks and the street, I may not be academicily aufait, but as Popeye says I knows what I knows!! ps. is that the guy who said walking backwards to the future,and if so was he talking about your mates in the orders!
Good afternoon to you. Your mention of Popeye is most appropriate as he, if my memory serves me correctly had a wee song that sums up your position more succinctly than anything I could draw on from academia. Marty: [singing] I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam
LOL ya said it Robert or sung it mo cara,that about sums me up ,again to quote Popeye,Oh what am I ?some kinda barnicle on the dinghy of life?still laughing my friend loved that! have a nice day!btw Popeye was a good guy!
I'm going to wrap up here. btw? I have a theory about that. Look forward to more of your distortions at "Reflecting On Saville", later. See you at the party!
"Face the reality the Orange Order is nothing but a corrupt blight on the Protestant faith, I read the Protestant bible and confess I own an expensive version of one as the art work is beautiful but have not been able to find anything thing in it that promotes sectarianism. Maybe the Orange Order Bible says different." Explain the promotion of sectarianism as I have failed to find it in the King James version?
Glady I will provide you the information you asked for then.
The dead – always a touchy subject and often the ammunition needed by those in search of being offended. There is no easy way to manage it. Like most others I am never comfortable with it but artistic expression and free inquiry will always trump my discomfort.
Nuala,
I just found him friendly even though I had quite a few public spats with him. He was just somebody who, regardless of his political views, never gave me cause to dislike him on a personal level. It is that way with a lot of them. I was invited to the home of one last night and he was exceptionally hospitable. We debated the issues, he had criticisms to make, as had I, but it was totally free of rancour. We had another one stay over with us at the weekend and me and her went at it but it was totally friendly. I remember one of those who picketed the house stopping to offer me and the child a lift some time after it. I didn’t take it only because I was going in the opposite direction. There was no social friction between us.
‘ I have heard it said that violence is the repartee of the illiterate.’
Yet the greatest acts of violence are carried out by the most literate – governments and their cohorts.
Robert,
I never met Gerry Adams in any IRA capacity.
Marty is quite right in what he says about Wright. It is not the result of media informed opinion. There are a wide variety of ways to ascertain the roles people have played. Billy Wright was such a prominent player that obtaining information about his role is much easier than others less prominent.
Does that information amount to legal evidence that would stand up in court? In some cases if presented in court it could stand up. In other instances no. But legal knowledge is not the only form of knowledge. A legal fact can often be a real life fiction. In 1983 I was found not guilty of IRA membership – legal fact, real life fiction. OJ Simpson is a case in point.
As for my views on religion, implicit in your comment is that without religion there is a lack of morality or at least a moral code. Am I right in drawing that inference? As a person with no religious belief I would dispute that most firmly. Morally, Billy Wright was a killer of innocent Catholics. A legal verdict finding otherwise would make it no less true.
I doubt your citing of common law has much relevance to what is under discussion here – it is not a court, Billy Wright was not on trial. It is a forum where we employ forms of knowledge which are not legal based, but can be none the less real for that.
Former IRA volunteer and ex-prisoner, spent 18 years in Long Kesh, 4 years on the blanket and no-wash/no work protests which led to the hunger strikes of the 80s. Completed PhD at Queens upon release from prison. Left the Republican Movement at the endorsement of the Good Friday Agreement, and went on to become a journalist. Co-founder of The Blanket, an online magazine that critically analyzed the Irish peace process. Lead researcher for the Belfast Project, an oral history of the Troubles.
That,l be the Stoneyford contingent then. Led of course by that doyien of decency bro Harbinson
ReplyDeleteAnother good laugh but not so funny,I see psf minister Murphy is playing jobs for the boys by appointing Martin O Muilleoir Belfast businessman, ha ha yeah right,Daily Ireland springs to mind,as an non executive director to the board of N.I water, O Muilleoir will be paid the industrail wage of approx £24k a year for less than 2 days work a month.and of course this money will not find its way back into the partys coffers, yip for effective local leadership, votail psf my arse!
ReplyDeleteHe might end up earning his £24k.
ReplyDeleteDon't think the water charge scenario will go to plan.
An article in the A Town, today accusing 'dissidents' of obtaining money through crime.
ReplyDeleteThe accusations were made by an unnamed source. No doubt, too scared people will split their sides laughing.
And psf used to shout about cronyism ,they must now be leaders in that field
ReplyDeletethis is a test Anthony a number of posts failed to get delivered
ReplyDeleteMarty, they are cosying up to the Orange Order behind closed doors.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of cosying up, would you not give Barbara a ring. Said she cannot contain herself around bearded men.
Thought you might be at a loose end with Marie away?
evidence of evolution
ReplyDeleteseems ok now Marty
ReplyDeleteI may be a goat Nuala buy I aint bearded, I,ll stick with the Leitrim lasses,they may not be mega bucks ,but you can look them in the eye
ReplyDeleteA man was walking along a beach when suddenly in a booming voice god said"because you,ve been faithful to me in all waysI,ll grant you one wish" "build me a bridge to Hawaii"said the man god said"its an enormous undertaking to build over an ocean,it would use up all the steel and concrete in the world,I can do it but its hard to justify,is there anything else that you can think of that I can do to help mankind?" the man thought for a bit then said "I wish all men could understand women I want to know what shes thinking when I get the silent treatment,why she cries,what she means when she says nothing is wrong and how can I make her truley happy?" god says....you want 2 lanes or 4 on that f##kin bridge
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ReplyDeleteMust be near july..agh da costa blanca is magenafico...come on them fenian SPANISH tell da biggots hi from us and our Iranian and Spanish tapas bar hosts..miss em, not a jot, har de har har Adios Englatera..loved that goal ..ooops not...all the ingerlit wth irish granny wer very loud in Murphys..for a while ..rest of us were just smug..still are.
ReplyDeleteRobert your way of the mark there mo cara, the pic by our brill Brian is of people closer to possibily yourself than any of us,and of course if you were to ask them are you Irish you would probably be kicked and stomped to death (not the first time) to show you how loyal to Queen and country they are, we have had to endure your fellow countrymen and women for 800 years and as you can see from the pic they havent changed much, so if we stop taking the piss out of the English national team, will you take your relations home please.!!!
ReplyDeleteFuthermore re the neanderthals who pledge their loyalty to Queen and country ,while like everywhere else the people here have to face massive cutbacks in public spending,schools not being built ,hospitals closing and yet these thugs and yesterdays men are being giving grants by Belfast council and the others to basically carry out illegal environmental acts like the burning of tyres etc and in one praticular case at the gates of a cancer hospital ,I ask ya,!I can assure you Robert that there is neither anything cultural or entertaining at these drunking orgies, and the clean up cost to the councils are enormous.kind makes you glad to be British eh Robert
ReplyDeleteRobert, no hurls, just sashes and bowler hats.
ReplyDeleteI don't know whether you were being genuinely unfunny or defending the Orangemen?
If it is the latter, I would just like to ask. Why do we still have to up with this lot in our own country, when an English Chief Constable said he would not tolerate them in his?
At last an honest portrayal of how the English view the Irish it must be rough on the Orange Order living proof that even god makes mistakes.
ReplyDeleteGreat cartoon “intelligent by design” is joking blasphemy?
Nuala,
ReplyDeleteThey don’t do irony. I think being so far removed from any sense of reality figured significantly in the collapse of Daily Ireland.
Mackers, Martin Millar was another one that climbed the ladder on the backs of other peoples' stuggles.
ReplyDeleteAlways on hand to carry a coffin but very little else.
Had the 'Dark' known him he would have no doubt placed him in the same category as Hartley.
Pompous, arrogant, ass licker and those are his finer points.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDelete`I don't know whether you were being genuinely unfunny or defending the Orangemen?
If it is the latter, I would just like to ask. Why do we still have to put up with this lot in our own country, when an English Chief Constable said he would not tolerate them in his?
The answer to the question you pose is quite simple because it is also their country. On what basis would you claim to have exclusive ownership as is implied by this statement?. The Chief Constable would have no choice but to tolerate a perfectly legal organisation regardless of his personal opinions where all legal requirements had been met in terms of assembly or anything else.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteMy apologies for winding you up - please come down and we will engage in some debate and perhaps a little light hearted repartee. I withdraw my earlier comment given it's evident offence to you and Fionnuala.
Considering that the Ulster Unionists have been successful in enduring all that Irish Republicanism could throw at them I hardly think they will want to move `home' at my behest. Hard as it may be for you to accept the people you so lovingly refer to as neanderthals are in fact home.
Robert a cara,the Ulster Unionist population have successfully endured all that Irish republicianism has thrown at them!Hmmm my reading of things would be contary to that oponion, the six county state of Norn Iorn was brought about by the threat of force,and through the 20s and 30s the nationalist population had to endure continious secterain onsaults,the Mc Mahon family come to mind here , yes my friend on the 23rd March 1922 5 members of the Mc Mahon family and a lodger were murdered by a loyalist murder squad set up by the unionist party and led by RIC inspector John Nixon,who later was to be elected to parliament and awarded an MBE by King George for his valuable service, then we endured the Special powers act,a piece of draconian legislation described as an overkill and Dr Verwoerd of the apartheid S African goverment stated he would gladly scrap 811 of his repressive legislation for just one regulation of the special powers act,this my friend along with discrimination in housing ,employment we endured through to the late 60,s when a new generation of young people inspired by events worldwide and in America in praticular began to demand civil rights, and the Unionst response was as always beat them of the streets,introduce internment ,torture, degrading treatment, ,but this time the world was watching, and the young people of the North were off their knees and there was no going back down,we endured the lies about Mc Gurks bar watched as UDR/UVF members massacared the Miami showband endured Bloody Sunday and subsequent cover up, Dublin/Monaghan bombings, thousands of homes wrecked and lives shattered by the proxies of the brit goverments i.e RUC/UDR/UDA/UVF, Then yesterday we had to endure that waster Mc Crea crying crocidle tears for victims here in Westminster, the place that orchestrated so much of the misery here and Mc Crea a man of dubious character ,who has shared platforms with one of the most notorious secterian killers here i.e Billy Wright,yes my friend I can see why the people of England want them to stay put who the hell would want wasters like that in their country,sorry to say Robert we can have a banter about almost anyting glad to oblige and we can laugh at each other , but as for the orange order well my friend ,frankly I cant see anything funny about those eejits,other than Brians brill pic
ReplyDeleteRobert
ReplyDeleteUlster Unionists may fly the Red Hand of Ulster which is an historical “Irish” symbol for that I thank you. They can kick the pope in their zealot bigotry but when they arrive in that foreign land of England they get culture shock as all we Paddies sound the same.
Keep the orange dream going Holland is in the world cup King Billy will be there in gay spirit.
Hiding under the guise of a religious order is a joke as the Orange Order is purely anti catholic its followers display a lack of Christian morals with their blatant hatred of Catholics keep promoting the legal sectarian movement.
Remarkable the rag tag rabble of a few republicans back in 69 with a few guns threw everything at the superior Orange State how shameful the masters could not crush the rabble. King Billy would not be amused at such a letdown.
Worse, even when the mighty British army backed the Orange State they brought greater shame as the rabble republicans still managed to embarrass and disgrace the far superior armies of the Union.
Even more shameful the Orange Order now is under scrutiny with those interfering Catholics in those disgraceful parade commissions.
Shocking situation this farcical British imposed law trying to tell proud loyalists where they can and can’t march in their own homeland, honestly who do these bloody British government people think they are. Oh wait they are your leaders I hardly think your beef is with the taigs this time can’t blame them.
Face the reality the Orange Order is nothing but a corrupt blight on the Protestant faith, I read the Protestant bible and confess I own an expensive version of one as the art work is beautiful but have not been able to find anything thing in it that promotes sectarianism. Maybe the Orange Order Bible says different.
Anyway keep on marching as its entertaining I love the John Steed look alike completion with the bowler hat and umbrella you remember that aul show The Avengers.
Don’t take it so seriously mucker this whole peace issue has us all confused republicans fighting republicans, loyalists fighting loyalists if you ask me the Brits are just messing with our heads just like the cartoon suggests they see the loyalist paddies and the republican paddies as thick.
Just for the record I hate that St. Paddy’s day lark enjoy your parade Robert and be sure to return with a wee post hopefully it will pass peacefully.
Enjoying the banter between you and Marty not being biased I think Marty is winning with historical facts.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteGood evening.Having read your reply I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's observation that,` Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it'
I too could provide an alternative condensed history of N.Ireland with specific dates of countless atrocities carried out by republicans ad nauseum. My view on how and why the state was formed obviously differs however I am glad that it has not shaped my opinion to an extent where I would view my fellow countrymen and women as sub human. Your use of words such as `neanderthals' and praise of nazisque satirical depictions leads me to no other conclusion.
I cannot comment on the unfounded allegations you make against the late Billy Wright given the absence of any evidence.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDeleteJust a few checks to authenticate that expensive Bible as being Protestant. Only a King James version, note that I am not referring to King James II, can be viewed as truly Protestant. That authentification should be located at the front of your bible. I am suspicious of your mention of artwork.
Tain Bo,
ReplyDelete`They can kick the pope in their zealot bigotry...' Very topical of you to have mentioned the pope as £12 million is abit much to spend on security for his visit to the UK but if the kids are safe for a few days it will be money well spent. Surely even the Huns can't disagree with that?
What I find really amusing about the whole twelth charade is the fact neither of the two Kings James or William hadn't the slightest bit of interest in this place.
ReplyDeleteWhat is even more amusing, is the fact, that the Brits never rated Billy as a king or anything else for that matter.
Bigots to the core like their chums over here, they were simply determined to ensure a Catholic never sat on an English throne.
Why did they not just cart James off to the tower?
Think of what we would have been spared if they had!
Hope they have a peaceful day. Think of how peaceful it would be if a few roads opened up beneath them.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteYou may be surprised to learn that infact King James II was a Catholic who sat on the thrown and as history records made a hash of it by attempting to enforce Catholicism on his subjects. The only reason he was'nt taken to the tower was the fecker could run too fast. Another interesting fact is that his Irish supporters referred to him as `Seamus an Chaca' or `James the Shithead' following his desertion of them at the Boyne.
Robert a cara, I totally agree with you re the popes visit to Prefidious Albion hope he gets sent to the tower and of with his head,and all the greasy pervie priests and vicars and dickie dodgers as well top them all , never mind their human rights save the kids.you probably are aware re William that there is a painting of him being blessed by the pope,hiding or was hiding in Belfast city hall, also again mo cara your so right about James an chaca, when asked by Lady Tirconnell asked who won the the battle ,he said that the cowardly Irish ran away, to which the lady retorted"I see your majesty won the race" re Billy king rat there is plenty of evidence about the nefarious activities of that man and lots of people believe he was not a rouge loyalist but acting under orders from either special branch or probably higher up, I think his father may uncover the truth yet,also evidence of his activities can be found in many graveyards, now you say that because we are in praise of nazisque satirical depictions ie Brian Mors captions, well a cara I am not an expert on political or social cartoons Brian would be the one to ask there,but Brians pics look to me a kinda soft version of the cartoons depicting the Oirish in your countrys Punch mag 1841 and if you look at some of the cartoon characters depicted then you will see what your fellow country men thought of us Irish sub human would be to kind a word,the orange orders main purpise in life was/is to act as the unionist boot boys ie,to remind the indigenous population that they are the victors of some long ago genocide,hence the need to march /trample all over areas where they neither live or are wanted,refusing to discuss with their neighbours about unwanted parades puts these people imo in the realm of the neanderthals,I met a genie today who granted me one wish I told the genie I wanted to live forever,"sorry" said the genie "I,m not allowed to grant wishes like that" "fine" says I "I want to die only after England win the world cup" "you crafty f##ker "said the genie
ReplyDeleteRobert, there is nothing that would surprise me in relation to the Battle of the Boyne.
ReplyDeleteI actually taught the module during my short lived teaching career out in Lisburn.
Know enough about it, to know that what goes on here every year is more shambolic than symbolic.
Loved the kids in the school though and we had some laughs during my time there.
I also taught them about the famine and considering many of the kids were from a tough working- class Protestant estate they were brilliant.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteThe existence of a painting of King William III being blessed by the Pope is news to me and will be to many people - did Michael Henry tell you this? Surely if such a painting did exist it would have been produced long before now. In any event it would not be factual. With reference to Punch, you may not be aware that Sir Edward Carson was lampooned also in it's depictions of the Irish.
Your description of the Orange Order as,`the unionist boot boys' is an interesting observation given the widely held view within the Unionist community that infact the Order is weak. The reality is Marty that Orangemen could'nt give a monkeys if a Catholic was'nt within a thousand mile radius of any of their parades. Their presence is an irrelevance to the purpose of Orange/loyalist parades. Only a minority of the annual parades held during the marching season are in fact organised by the Orange Order today. The so called `parades issue' has it's recent origins in an ill conceived Sinn Fein strategy, if I am not mistaken attribuated to your mate big Bob doh head. The problem for those it has marched to the top of the hill is, of course, that it now needs to coax them back down again. Enter Spike et al. Not so much like the grand old duke as a Tory government in that, `they have yet to take up a cause that they have'nt betrayed in the end.'
Robert a cara how the hell are ya,if anyone in the N/east knows the whereabouts of gunman Raoul Moat,can you tell him that John Terry Frank Lampard,Ashley Cole and Wayne Rooney also shagged his girlfriend......on a lighter note my friend the painting of William of orange by Dutch master Pietier Van der Meulen which protrays William and his generals being blessed by pope Innocent XI before the battle of the Boyne certainly does exist, Now enter extreme right wing bigot RUC inspector ,unionst mp John Nixon.he led a gang of loyalists in 1934 into Stormont where this painting hung and they slashed the painting with a knife and threw crimson paint over it,the painting was taken down and removed for restoration it was never seen again,and valued at over £500k.William of orange was in fact funded by the pope,who funded his victories at the Boyne and the battle of Aughrim.when news of the Boyne victory reached the pope and leaders of his allies in the leauge of Augsberg,prayers and songs were sung in the Catholic cathedrals, I refer you to Pope cut out of orange history by Sean Mac Mathuna,If orangemen couldnt give a monkeys if a Catholic wasnt within a thousand mile radius of any of their parades,then why do we have the yearly spectacle of the orange orders trying to push a parade down the Garvaghy rd and the Ormeau rd,and through Workman Ave then on to the Springfield rd and also past the Ardoyne ,I put it to you that the reason is simply that theres no point in bateing the crap outa the big drum if it aint annoying taigs,I agree with you psf seen an issue that had the nationalist community seething and they exploited it, and if the truth be told the loyal orders played right into psf/prms hands, the refusal to talk (we dont talk o terrorists oh jaysusss how clean are we)to community leaders, or simply show leadership and reroute contenious parades,the orange order used to march in Andytown ,they dont now Robert times change the leaders in the orders need to change with them, personally I think they should just f##k off along with the AOH,I also agree that psf have now as part of the establishment are trying to extricate themselves from the Pandoras box they and the orders have created unfortunatley its to late for the Dukes of York ,their attempts alongside the DUP at bringing in legislation regarding parades has united all sections of the community in opposition to it,they will have egg on their faces before this is all over and I cant wait to see it,Anyway mo cara my baps getting hard here and the tea is turning orange ffs
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ReplyDeleteRobert a cara ,may I be the first to say well said that man ,excellent,I,m not so sure about the orthopedic shoe bit though!,think I,ll keep walking one foot on the road and the other on the footpath,Anyway my friend from disputing the presence of any such painting, you have come back not only confiriming such a painting does exist but with a fuller history than which I could, without research could provide,I for one accept all that you say regarding this picture, but a cara and here is the rub imo,when a painting with such tenuous links to a pope can elicit such an extreme and bigoted reaction ,must say something about that type of unionist mentality,Nixon a man of bloody history facilitated this attack and at least no one died,while I believe that this type of sectaian hatred shown was allowed to forment among sections of the loyalist people ,to be used when and were their unionst masters would require a bit of thuggery to keep the Taigs subdued,i.e Gusty Spence.the Shankill butchers. etc, as far as William the gay orangeman and Seamus an chaca both strangers to Irish soil and who glady spilt Irish blood in a european dispute and the pope are concerned i,d gladly piss on all their graves,the legacy of lies and hatred they left has generations of Irishmen/women locked in a bitter and outdated sectarian dispute. that is why I believe and hopefully you as well that for the sake of future generations we must shake of the shakles of this religious bigotry that infests this country and confine all these organisations to the dustbin of history. Anyway Robert did you say it was your round ffs these glasses have been empty for ever!!
ReplyDeleteRobert, would totally disagree with you that the Loyalist marchers count not 'give a monkey if a Catholic was not in a thousand mile radius'
ReplyDeleteTheir entire marching season is essentially triumphalistic.
I grew up in a mixed street and I seen and heard them first hand prior to the marching season.
Many of the things we were exposed to as children still angers me to this very day.
Their hatred and the extent of it was not only scary it was obscene.
They care that Catholics were there to witness their antics alright, that was part of the fun of it.
When I think back to all of it, I think, is it any wonder this place ignited, how much more of their crap did they expect us to take?
About William and the Pope, if my memory serves me right, not only did Pope Innocent support William.
The lighting of the bonfires, is supposedly a celebration of how the Vatican lit up to celebrate his victory.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteHope that teabag was in the cup longer than England?
I have to say again that I am surprised to learn that a painting of King William III being blessed by Pope Innocent XI exists. The work you refer to has an interesting history however you repeat a number of glaring inaccuracies you may have read in the Andersonstown News but which are particularly evident in Sean Mac Mathuna's unscholarly, `Pope cut out of orange history'.
Firstly, there is no mystery surrounding the fate of this painting. Currently it is in William Hay's office at Stormont having been restored, stored and removed to the public records office in 1975 - 1983. The Ulster Museum having researched the painting have concluded not only was it not the work of Pieter van der Muelen but the figure featured on the white horse was,nt even William but a minor German prince. It has been critically observed that,`The story that Pieter van der Muelen was a court painter to William of Orange and that the Stormont painting was his originated with whoever sold the picture to James Craig’s government in the first place and has been accepted as fact ever since. Not only was Pieter van der Muelen an obscure painter of little talent, but also his authorship of this painting and its subject-matter are questionable. No one has found his signature on the painting, and there are no obvious indications, by way of a coat of arms or symbols, as to the identity of the subject. Even the flags carried by the officers are imprecise. Furthermore, this depiction does not resemble any of the other well-known portraits of King William III, who is usually portrayed on a bay horse, if at all, and as bareheaded or wearing a fashionable broad-brimmed hat, not a helmet as here. In fact, the tricorn worn by the officer to the right would indicate an eighteenth-century date for this painting.There is no evidence that he painted at William of Orange’s court, let alone that he was the official court painter. He was the younger brother of Adam Frans van der Muelen (1632–90), to whom he was apprenticed. Adam Frans was a celebrated painter of battle scenes; Louis XIV, whom he was allowed to accompany on some of his campaigns, admired his work'.
The painting was bought on speculation,unseen and with false expectation that it depicted Williams landing at Carrickfergus by Lord Craigavon, Sir Norman Stronge and Dame Dehra Parker. It,s unveiling was highly controversial due to the presence of the pope and a Franciscan Friar with rosary beads. While John Nixon MP did not personnally deface the painting he certainly facilitated it.Charles Forster, a Glasgow city councillor, threw red paint, while Mary Ratcliffe slashed it with a knife. For this they were arrested and fined £65 at Downpatrick Court. Again Mathuna gets things terribly wrong. Initially stating that Nixon led his attack on the painting in 1934 he goes on to describe how Nixon noticed the paintings contents on the 8th March 1933 and,`Seven weeks later Nixon and his gang attacked the painting. No action was taken against Nixon, and the matter was quietly forgotten'. I will leave the chronology for you to work out Marty but hope that this clears up the matter for you.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteThe lighting of beacons as opposed to bonfires were actually to confirm Williams landing. There is currently movement on establishing `willow beacons'. The more environmentally friendly aspect of willow beacons I personally agree with but again this will not be achieved through attempting to make all aspects of our culture issues of contention.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteMine's an orange and make it a bitter one!
Fair point but given Protestant perceptions on how they have been treated by the Church of Rome since the Reformation the reaction appears proportionate. Indeed Unionists are not alone in our reaction to artwork. Of course I am referring to the IRA destruction of Lord Gough's monument in the Phoenix Park, the William of Orange statue in College Green and the King George II statue in St Stephen's Green. Dublin's most prominent monument, Nelson's Pillar, O'Connell Street, was blown up by Saor Eire in 1966, as their way of commemorating the fiftieth anniversary of the Easter Rising. Not to mention the destruction of Walkers Pillar on Derry,s Walls. Would you class this as bigotry or an excessive artistic critique?
I agree that religion has had a profound and malvolent effect on all of us but even if this is removed from the equation we are still left with the questions of nationality and ethnicity.
Robert mo cara,is there any other kind of orangeman,hope the blisters arent doing your head in , as for the removal of the afore mentioned monuments,you will find that this is common practice among liberated people who have shaken of the yoke of the oppressor 800 years in another mans land was long enough,in the case of the semi-liberated area of Ireland,what the invader didnt destroy he occupied,I use the term semi -liberated when refering to the 26 counties because a lot of hoora Henry,s were allowed to stay put instead of being repatriated,ach I hear you say what about Walkers pillar,that was in the uk, but my reply to you would be my blistered friend is the removal was in anticapation of liberation which sadly to say because of Mc Guinness and Adams has been put back considerably,
ReplyDeleteRobert, this is not culture and that is the problem.
ReplyDeleteLiberal multi-culturalists, who advocate we must adopt to other peoples' cultures compare the Orange Order to the Klu Klux Klan.
Neo-Liberal culturalism is about as laid back as it gets.
They do not believe that other races or creeds should assimilate into the host culture, rather they believe in live and let live, whereby people should be free to express their own faith and culture, within reason of course.
Yet they have serious issues with what goes on here during the marching season!
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteI am aware that such comparisons have been made however the fact that the Orange Order has lodges in countries such as Ghana, Tonga and Cameroon with many visiting coloured members involved in various parades throughout N.Ireland annually creates a major problem for that particular chesnut. Maybe you could explain the Klu Klux Klan/Orange Order model to me in more specific detail and allow me to explain why I think you are wrong.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteUnionists are not a homogeneous group so the answer to your rhetorical question is that there are many different kinds of Orangemen.
Sorry to hear liberation has been put back indefinately - heres me gearing up for 2016.
Fionnuala,
ReplyDeleteJust an afterthought. Did you hear about the new dare devil - Klu Klux Knievel. He,s going to attempt to jump 12 African Americans with a steam roller!
Aye Robert and the council rewarded him for laying 30 yds of tarmac with cats eyes!!!!!! as for 2016, no sweat Robert not unless you believe the great pretender i.e.the bearded one, and if you do my friend you,ll find yourself in a very small minority,you may come back at me with a retort about the mandate that Gerry Itwasntme has but I believe the people of west Belfast voted not for policy but peace at any price and if you had stuck a tricolour on a Toblerone they would have voted for that en masse,and like his psf contains nuts and honeyed words and not very nice!as for worldwide orangemen well there,s no counting on people,s tastes the poor buggers must live miserable lives when all they can aspire to in life is to wear a bowler hat!!!!!
ReplyDeleteNuala,
ReplyDeleteOn MM, socially I never had any difficulty with him. It is the urge to censor and control what people think that I find irksome with him. So what if people don’t agree with his perspective or oppose SF – let all views contend. Free inquiry can lead to some very strained situations but a world without it is a form of hell. How can anything be measured in its absence?
Never imagined it – they would be debating authentic bibles on my blog! It is what you get when everything goes.
Robert, we have had enough maniacs objecting to cartoons over the years without you adding your shoulder to their wheel.
The credibility of the argument starts to wane when the Billy Wright culpability is not confronted head on. A bit like the Gerry denials. In both cases we know what they were and discussion is hardly furthered by taking refuge behind legalisms.
Stay with us – the banter is something else.
Anthony,
ReplyDelete`Never imagined it – they would be debating authentic bibles on my blog! It is what you get when everything goes'
We did'nt actually get any debate on the bible subject. Unfortunately my enquiry created the `Tumbleweed Effect' for some reason? I sincerely hope that expensive artwork Tain Bo referred to was'nt a back issue of the `Dandy'?
I have no objection to satirical doodling, just think the use of the dead for humour is a pretty poor show. Equally I don't agree with censorship, Heine was frighteningly accurate when he said,
"Wherever they burn books, in the end,they will also burn human beings too." Be it in our minds or upon a fire the dangers are the same.
Thank you for the invitation. Will address the culpability issue you raise in a seperate reply
I thought Monty Python,s Life Of Brian was dead funny Robert!Heine also said"I,ve never seen an ass who talked like a human being,but I,ve met many human beings who talked like asses!while you look at Billy Wrights culpability,could you comment on Paisley snr and co ,for sure a lot of questions still need to be asked about the role these people played in our recent dirty past!would you agree?
ReplyDeleteMackers, first met him almost thirty years ago and to be honest I had no thoughts on him on way or the other.
ReplyDeleteHe was kind of on the periphery of Sinn Fein then.
A few years back I had the misfortune of having to be in his company socially and it was certainly not a joy.
Mackers, you are probably right about him and no doubt I am wrong.
However, he is not a person who's company I would ever seek out.
Honestly do not think he could ever think or deviate out side the party line.
You are more than a match for them which is probably why they don't bother you.
Nuala I remember that eejit running around the Ard Fheis many many years ago he was on a self promotional thing then as a gaelgoir, running aroud sticking stickers on peoples coffee cups with the slogan leabhair gaelic liom, not so much as an enthusiastic Irish speaker more imo as someone looking to be noticed, in those far of days the arrogance was mainly confined to the fact that he had the teanga, but as he crawled up the greasy pole he cultivated the powerful and wealthy, becoming a total mouth for Itwasntme and clinging to that wealthy chemist and property devoloper to advance his social status,and yes hon your description of him as a pompous arrogant git is as about as close as one can get a ragged trouser philanthropist he aint
ReplyDeleteA futher afterthought re the said MM ,Nuala I would agree Anthony would be more of an intellectual match for that man, me I just prefer to kick him in the nuts!!!
ReplyDeleteMarty, have to agree Mr Mc Intyre has so much more social etiquette than us.
ReplyDeleteI too remember MM early and very awkward entrance into the movement.
He was then a friend of the man who declared 'Stakeknife' would be proven totally innocent, Michael Flannagan.
I think the 'Dark' would have described these people the way he described Hartley, 'coat trailers, hangers on'
They could not have laced people like Brendan's boots, even in his worst times he was a giant in comparrison to them.
Yet, as you say Marty it paid off, they managed to hold on to the greasy pole.
Marty,
ReplyDeleteA sharp and witty retort. You leave me no option but to open my Imelda Markos walk in wardrobe of `orthopedic shoes'. With the exception of that famous quote I'm not familiar with the works of Heine but can concur with the Psalmist in this instance that, ` `the parable in the mouth of the fool is like the limb of a lame man'
Robert,Anthony says stay with us the banter is something else, kind got me thinking, why dont the loyal orders start up their own tv channel, you know like that Dave one they advertise it as the home of witty banter ,if the orders had their own channel they could maybe advertise it as the home of bitter w##kers
ReplyDeleteRobert a cara my advice is to keep your words soft and sweet, just in case you ever have to eat them
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteNo need to apologise for the typo, I appreciate your good manners. I suppose you could have suffered a Fruedian slip and typed in `retard'
`Roibeard' will do me fine, particularly if I ever visit my fellow bigots on Na h'Eileanan Siar and in particular An Leodhas. I think I will pass on the advice if you don't mind - hope you are not alluding to violence Marty? I have heard it said that violence is the repartee of the illiterate. Here you go mate - have another slice of reality pie, it's on the house.
Anthony,
ReplyDelete`The credibility of the argument starts to wane when the Billy Wright culpability is not confronted head on. A bit like the Gerry denials. In both cases we know what they were and discussion is hardly furthered by taking refuge behind legalisms'
As a self proclaimed former member of the IRA I recognise your ability to comment authoritatively on the position of Gerry Adams within that organisation and as to the actions that have been attribuated to him. When Marty throws another individual's name into the mix, in this instance Billy Wright, that position changes considerably from someone with intimate insider knowledge to someone with a media informed opinion. If you are stating that he was a Loyalist paramilitary figure then of course it would be ridiculous of me to attempt to construct a denial of that. The statement,`one of the most notorious secterian (sic) killers here i.e Billy Wright...' to be credible, surely needs to be underpinned by something more substantial than hearsay. I seek no refuge in legalisms however I would view your reference to culpability as significant. Given your views on religion I take it you are referring to legal and not moral culpability. Accordingly, `In common law legal systems, conviction of a person in absentia, that is in a trial in which they are not present to answer the charges, is held to be a violation of natural justice. Specifically, it violates the second principle of natural justice, audi alteram partem'
Robert a social study some years back highlighted the fact, that the lowest levels of literacy in Europe was in the Shankill area.
ReplyDeleteOne of the reasons cited for this, was the fact they did not need to be educated to get jobs.
And according to your theory on violence, it could partly explain their eruption towards the 'other community' trying to be PC.
Robert a cara,in a week or so I hope to back in Na h,Eileanan Siar , while I find Dundee especially the grey stonework drab and dreary, the people brighten up the place, Aberdeen is a little brighter and a busy oil centre ,but my love is open and wild spaces and no lovelier than the western isles, therefore Robert to appreciate such beauty I for one dont believe there is a bigoted bone in your body,and remember my friend ,There are only two tragedies in life,one is not getting what one wants,and the other is getting it ,your mate Oscar Wilde,and as we are in the Scotish mood a wi bit o Rabbie Burns, Inspiring bold John Barleycorn,What dangers thou canst make us scorn!wi tippenny,we fear nae evil;wi usquebae,we,ll face the devil,
ReplyDeleteFionnuala,
ReplyDelete`Other community' trying to be PC? I heard today that the `other community' in Ardoyne think that PC refers to `paving concrete'
See Nuala see!! ,thats what ya get when ya try talking to the other side they go an hit ya with Latin an all, I told ya just kick him in the nuts!!!Where the hell is Mick Hall? ya can never get a dummy tit when you need one!, I suppose Robert if we listen to the other side it is going to sound an awful lot like an echo, possibly we can be sure when we make statements about the likes of Billy Wright, although they may not stand up in a court nevertheless it doesnt make them less true,and why we can make these statements is because we have seen to many similarities on this side to be certain that a badun can spotted a mile off,and Robert, Billy Wright was a budun.mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteA beautiful little ditty - good one. Goodnight until our next joist.
Marty,
ReplyDelete"et prout vultis ut faciant vobis homines et vos facite illis similiter"
`That Marty is a very bad man'. `How do you know , well I read it in the Sunday World, and anyway our Liam says that Paddy overheard Seamus and Sean talking about him so it must be true. `Quick get out of my way,someone needs to tell Brian Rowan about this!'
Aye Robert ,but do it first!Arma potentius aequum,I for one and I know most who would visit this free and open blog,would not base their opinions on mere hearsay,nor would they diminish a persons character by repeating what we read in the newspapers,my opinions like our friends on this blog are formed by what those in the media call reliable sources,also most of our disgust is aimed primarily at those from this side of the divide i.e Adams and his cohorts in psf,and my friend as I stated at the top justice is more powerful than weapons and that is what most of us seek
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDelete"my opinions like our friends on this blog are formed by what those in the media call reliable sources.."
EUREKA!! I can now understand why your opinions are invested with what communications theorist Marshall McLuhan referred to as, "artifical perceptions and arbitrary values" on many of the issues we have discussed.
Robert a cara Marshall Mc Luhan and all due respect to the man ,is as you say a theorist, now thats not a man who deals in fact if I,m not mistaken but rather someone who theorizes! now my friend where I,m coming from and what I,m aware of is what I,see and hear and experience for myself is what forms my perception of the world around me, you say I have arbitary values ,do you mean I,m unreasonable or that my views are unsupported, again my friend these views of mine come from the university of hard knocks and the street, I may not be academicily aufait, but as Popeye says I knows what I knows!! ps. is that the guy who said walking backwards to the future,and if so was he talking about your mates in the orders!
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteGood afternoon to you. Your mention of Popeye is most appropriate as he, if my memory serves me correctly had a wee song that sums up your position more succinctly than anything I could draw on from academia. Marty: [singing] I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam that I yam / And I got a lotta muscle and I only gots one eye / And I'll never hurt nobodys and I'll never tell a lie / Top to me bottom and me bottom to me top / That's the way it is 'til the day that I drop, what am I? / I yam what I yam
LOL ya said it Robert or sung it mo cara,that about sums me up ,again to quote Popeye,Oh what am I ?some kinda barnicle on the dinghy of life?still laughing my friend loved that! have a nice day!btw Popeye was a good guy!
ReplyDeleteMarty,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to wrap up here. btw?
I have a theory about that. Look forward to more of your distortions at "Reflecting On Saville", later. See you at the party!
Robert
ReplyDelete"Face the reality the Orange Order is nothing but a corrupt blight on the Protestant faith, I read the Protestant bible and confess I own an expensive version of one as the art work is beautiful but have not been able to find anything thing in it that promotes sectarianism. Maybe the Orange Order Bible says different."
Explain the promotion of sectarianism as I have failed to find it in the King James version?
Glady I will provide you the information you asked for then.
Robert,
ReplyDeleteThe dead – always a touchy subject and often the ammunition needed by those in search of being offended. There is no easy way to manage it. Like most others I am never comfortable with it but artistic expression and free inquiry will always trump my discomfort.
Nuala,
I just found him friendly even though I had quite a few public spats with him. He was just somebody who, regardless of his political views, never gave me cause to dislike him on a personal level. It is that way with a lot of them. I was invited to the home of one last night and he was exceptionally hospitable. We debated the issues, he had criticisms to make, as had I, but it was totally free of rancour. We had another one stay over with us at the weekend and me and her went at it but it was totally friendly. I remember one of those who picketed the house stopping to offer me and the child a lift some time after it. I didn’t take it only because I was going in the opposite direction. There was no social friction between us.
Robert,
ReplyDelete‘ I have heard it said that violence is the repartee
of the illiterate.’
Yet the greatest acts of violence are carried out by the most literate – governments and their cohorts.
Robert,
I never met Gerry Adams in any IRA capacity.
Marty is quite right in what he says about Wright. It is not the result of media informed opinion. There are a wide variety of ways to ascertain the roles people have played. Billy Wright was such a prominent player that obtaining information about his role is much easier than others less prominent.
Does that information amount to legal evidence that would stand up in court? In some cases if presented in court it could stand up. In other instances no. But legal knowledge is not the only form of knowledge. A legal fact can often be a real life fiction. In 1983 I was found not guilty of IRA membership – legal fact, real life fiction. OJ Simpson is a case in point.
As for my views on religion, implicit in your comment is that without religion there is a lack of morality or at least a moral code. Am I right in drawing that inference? As a person with no religious belief I would dispute that most firmly. Morally, Billy Wright was a killer of innocent Catholics. A legal verdict finding otherwise would make it no less true.
I doubt your citing of common law has much relevance to what is under discussion here – it is not a court, Billy Wright was not on trial. It is a forum where we employ forms of knowledge which are not legal based, but can be none the less real for that.