Today The Pensive Quill carries an article by guest writer, Mark McGregor

Distopia [sic]ness by Mark McGregor


The Provisional movement was a four decade long hegemony in Republicanism, other groups rarely featured in a narrative dominated by them. Political challenges were like gnats on a cow’s arse and competing militarists a whimper beside a bang.

Slowly from the 90s on as that ‘movement’ gradually retired itself from militant republicanism, both armed and political, a space should/could have opened for those that rejected the direction taken. Those opportunities were consistently missed. Various groups have managed to build and then neglect small globular clusters of dissent over years - none ever achieved a gravitational pull large enough to become the dominant voice of republican opposition. The discerning dissenter now has more options than a P7 child deciding on secondary education - but unlike them knows failure is almost always guaranteed.

Republicans have even been faced with a ‘Unity Network’ promoting a ‘Unity Forum’ that half the organised groups are ‘United’ in ignoring. The options of organisations to join has never been so vast, Republicans finally have real choices to make - on which futile organisation suits them best.

While this goes on, Republicanism retreats further into insignificancy. Fractured, competing and utterly irrelevant. Some groups build fiefdoms but nobody builds a head of steam or a broad base. Huge areas without a viable group of committed activists from one organisation are left with no republican organisation at all. In many instances nobody ends up taking a credible stand on issues that should matter.

Instead of a mirror being shown to the face of the British state and its supporters we have a shattered myriad of fragments blinding all and ensuring focus is impossible.

Dis/topia [sic]ness

Today The Pensive Quill carries an article by guest writer, Mark McGregor

Distopia [sic]ness by Mark McGregor


The Provisional movement was a four decade long hegemony in Republicanism, other groups rarely featured in a narrative dominated by them. Political challenges were like gnats on a cow’s arse and competing militarists a whimper beside a bang.

Slowly from the 90s on as that ‘movement’ gradually retired itself from militant republicanism, both armed and political, a space should/could have opened for those that rejected the direction taken. Those opportunities were consistently missed. Various groups have managed to build and then neglect small globular clusters of dissent over years - none ever achieved a gravitational pull large enough to become the dominant voice of republican opposition. The discerning dissenter now has more options than a P7 child deciding on secondary education - but unlike them knows failure is almost always guaranteed.

Republicans have even been faced with a ‘Unity Network’ promoting a ‘Unity Forum’ that half the organised groups are ‘United’ in ignoring. The options of organisations to join has never been so vast, Republicans finally have real choices to make - on which futile organisation suits them best.

While this goes on, Republicanism retreats further into insignificancy. Fractured, competing and utterly irrelevant. Some groups build fiefdoms but nobody builds a head of steam or a broad base. Huge areas without a viable group of committed activists from one organisation are left with no republican organisation at all. In many instances nobody ends up taking a credible stand on issues that should matter.

Instead of a mirror being shown to the face of the British state and its supporters we have a shattered myriad of fragments blinding all and ensuring focus is impossible.

57 comments:

  1. Think I'll vote for nobody! They sound brilliant

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  2. I know what Mark says is true,and it really is pushing a huge boulder up a slippy hill,but I hope that with good will and new tatics and people realising that they have been shafted and lied to, socialist republicanism might lift its head again.in the meantime I,ll continue,as I,ve done for years to vote for nobody

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  3. i think its time we all voted for nobody.

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  4. If nobody wins, then does everybody lose? If everybody loses, does nobody win? I'm lost now, but it made so much sense a few minutes ago!
    Please discuss.

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  5. Nobody loses.. Because its a flucking bullshit game.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG4bUwLSQRE&NR=1

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  6. Hello Anthony,

    Who did that cartoon. It's brilliant.

    Is it possible to download it from somewhere?

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  7. Just about sums it all up Mackers lol..get a nice wee job somewhere and let it all roll on down the hill into oblivion!

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  8. Great cartoon Mark, nice mirror analogy too,

    Rory

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  9. Whilst not voting is tempting, it would be a mistake. If at all possible one should look for a candidate who meets your best interest.

    One of the neo-conservative plans was to make working class people so disillusioned with politicians that they failed to vote, until Obama came along last year and briefly gave millions hope, they have had great success with this, the same was partially true elsewhere in Europe, especially in England.

    Simply not liking the politicians who are standing and not agreeing with the platform of their party is not enough to refuse to vote.

    Myself I have rarely had a party to vote for whose platform represented my own politics. But there are parties and individuals whose election manifesto had elements of what I believe in. I look for this and vote accordingly.

    True it is not the best of options, as more often than not I am voting against something rather than for. If I lived in an area which was represented by what I regarded as a good constituency MP who opposed the war in Iraq and Afghanistan I would vote for them, even if they came from the centre.

    I would not vote for an MP who is for reducing the national deficit by cutting back on the Welfare State. These two points are my lines in the sand all else is a bonus, and I would expect any potential MP whom I considered voting for to sign up for these, preferable in blood as most are two faced tossers.

    That I am reduced to such an option is as much my fault as anyone else's, as clearly I/we have failed to establish a democratic socialist party in England worthy of the name. The same goes for the absence of a democratic socialist republican party in Ireland, surely?

    I suppose what I am saying is I intend voting for the candidate whom I believe will do the least damage.
    Not something I thought I would end up doing when I reached my 60s, but such is life.

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  10. fuck it Mick the problem with the"people" is we have gone to soft on those politicans who prey and leech of the ordinary man and woman, we need to start putting the fuckers against a wall on a regular basis, and before Anthony kicks of about their rights we should give them the right to wear a blindfold,the crop of maggots that have invested politics on both islands especially here who have actually made it into a family affair(sorry Peter) need to totaly removed and the harder the better,we need a revolution amigo pass out the ammo

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  11. Mick, not sure if it's an advantage or not to have as in Ireland & Britain a parliamentary system where smaller parties can form coalitions and a more diverse array of factions can share power.

    Yet, you all enjoy the benefit of fitting your own ideology and goals into a closer fit with some party, I suppose; the trouble here in the US is that we're basically stuck with a dysfunctional oligarchy propping up two parties only, and one that effectively excludes any alternative representation from even getting elected, let alone heard by a corporate-controlled media.

    I, too, tend to vote against rather than for, but I'd say with the ability to rank candidates, have run-offs, and re-order preferences, it's a fairer system for all its faults over there than the one we're stuck with in the US.

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  12. Mick, up to a point. The satisfaction to be gained from not voting any of the tossers is not to be underestimated. The resignation that comes from feeling there is no option but to vote for one of them should also not be underestimated.

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  13. Anthony et al

    As a SF supporter, and going back to Mark's blog, the one point that I am certain off is that SF has more activists working for the people of nationalist working class areas than any other party, always has done and hopefully will always keep doing so. Be it anti-social behaviour, helping people with benefits and housing issues, campaigning for new facilities or better use of the increasing amount of waste land that seems to appear on every corner.

    This is why I don't buy the 'SDLP in new clothes' as growing up in West belfast, I never saw them anywhere about the place except at election time and even then very sparingly. Also, in my political lifetime, I have yet to see the SDLP ever wave a tricolour, even during the times of total Brit brutality in the streets from which they wanted people's electoral support. So much for their claim to be an Irish Nationalist party?

    Slán

    Westie

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  14. Westie a cara you say your a s/f supporter not an activist, so maybe your not the person to answer this question , but how come there are far more ex shinners than there is activists, as for increasing amounts of waste land that may me down to the failed mp for west belfast,how many jobs, (apart for the ones for the boys)has he created,dont worry about that waste land the boys mates will devolop that as another private earner that the community will lose out on and probably subsidise,the sdlp are shite and new stormont s/f the pfi party are SHITE as well

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  15. I've said before here I'm confused and I say it again...I'm confused [ Not much hope for me as a politician-consistent! ] But the recent poll in the Belfast Tele that Sinn Fein are possibly set to become the biggest party and Martin rent a tout McGuinness may even be the First minister at some stage gave me satisfaction. Am I just being a wee shite thinking it's ironic and good enuf for the Unionists??
    A lot of good people got trashed and slandered by untouchables/agents, as it turned out...but I'm still for an end to Unionist veto's and dominance and all the grinding and nashing of teeth that will go with it for them. Bring it on...then we can consider handing out the ammo lol.
    I live in the Free State and am FF oriented because I'm bored and need a hobby..but in the Black North for a few more slides up the pole..I hope the Catholic party [ SF ] get the votes.

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  16. your a gegg Larry wanting the shinners no 1 in the sick counties but no thanks in the 26, when what we really need is Guy Fawlkes

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  17. Steven, the cartoon is graffiti from a wall in Canada. To download it just right click on the image and save

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  18. Marty

    I would be described as some as an activist, but its all relative as there are a lot more people who are a lot more active than I am.

    I have always been politically active and have lived long enough to see a marked difference in life for nationalists and republicans in West Belfast. I, like many many others, would have been harassed both verbally and physically as a scoolboy and as a teenager going about my business and experienced the RUC and Brits at their worse during the eighties.

    This is when the SDLP, imo. sowed exactly what they stand for as far as any claim to be an Irish party is concerned. Talking of which, it is the very 'articulate' Margaret Ritchie who continues to resist all the SF campaigning for the demolition of flats in Lenadoon and more importantly, Divis, the very flats where our own Bap McGreevy was murdered, not to mention the Andytown barracks and the other areas you are probably aware of.

    SF is not perfect by any means but they/we are out there doing our best for our own people.

    Going back to the blog, there isn't a repbublican alternative at present, and the latest nonsense in Derry for me goes to show their total lack of intellect and awareness of what the people are looking for in terms of direction or leadership.

    Slán

    Westie

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  19. Whilst not voting is tempting, it would be a mistake.. Excuse me.. If MR nobody votes then the game will be shown for the farce that it is. We don't not need politics.

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  20. Westie, a brave confession to make in public - a SF supporter! It can be cured you know. So don't lose hope. Banter aside, good to see you fighting your corner again.

    The type of thing you claim SF does is not what defines it or not as a republican party. Once the partition principle is supported republicanism goes out the window.

    The SDLP I have more time for than I do for SF. They have been consistent over the years and have argued every thing SF argues today. If I was a GFA supporter I would throw my vote the SDLP way because the GFA is entirely compatible with their position. It was never compatible with a SF one. Not one IRA volunteer that we are aware of died on active service thinking what SF have today was anything other than a sell out. Whether a sell out or not that's what we all thought it was during the armed campaigning. I don't think it is a matter of SF in SDLP clothing. I think it is SF stark naked in no clothing. As for waving tricolours - you know what they say, the bigger the flag the bigger the sell out. Flag waving does not appeal to me.

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  21. Sorry TP
    Your republicanism and proper republicanism is poles apart. What you are saying is partition is a good thing for republicans and sitting in Stormont is good and supporting the PSNI is good and the list goes on and on. The SDLP always supported all of the above because they always knew that violence doesn’t solve problems, now maybe Sinn Fein would have us believe that we wouldn’t be were we are today without same but really were are we. Unionists of what ever shade still don’t what us about the place as proven from 1921 till present day .That’s the hard facts of were we are. Remember SDLP were shouting from the rooftops the same words in the 70’s that present day Sinn Fein are now. SDLP Sinn Fein same thing.

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  22. I,m sure that there are many good people like yourself in S/F ,Westie a cara, I was born ,bred and buttered in Andytown, and I am a republican socialist over40 years, S/F IMO lost the plot away back around 1985 or earlier when the movement became over infiltrated with brit agents, when I think back to when people like Anthony and Tommy Gorman had their houses picketed, the same tatics used against Paddy Devlin or any onelse who spoke out against "effective local leadership"so it really doesnt stand to well for s/f to condem anyone, The young ones in theses area,s have no time for the cease fire hero,s and their party which shows to me the kids have a bit of sense

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  23. AM,
    Once the partition principle is supported republicanism goes out the window. I am interested in this statement. What are your views on The workers Party of Ireland. Have you read Brain Hanleys Book 'the lost revolution' Do you consider the workers party to be non republician because it didnt pursue an armed campaign in the north? Genuinely interested.

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  24. AM,
    I am interested in your statement
    'Once the partition principle is supported republicanism goes out the window'. Is that to say that you do not believe the the workers party of Ireland to be a republican socialist party seeking a non military approach to a 32 republic - 30 years ago? Have you read the book, brian Hanley the lost revolution, if so any views? genuinely interested in feedback

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  25. James, I have the book but have not yet had the time to read it. No, I don't think the WP were a republican party. Not because they did not wage an armed campaign after 1972 although they had an armed wing but because they took up an active anti-republican position and backed the British state in all its perfidy and sought to silence any voice that disagreed with them or that would seek to question British state human rights abuses. Reduced to simplicity republicans no more support the partition principle than Celtic fans support Rangers. It is interesting to talk to some of the Sticks about this. I used to go out on the drink with a crowd of them from Belfast and we would discuss all these points. Clever guys who knew that their leadership had abandoned them and their values. Yet they could critique the Provisional IRA campaign quite lucidly. Interestingly many of them were then voting SF.

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  26. that just shows the hypocrisy of the fuckers Anthony,

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  27. Marty, do you never go to bed?!!

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  28. lol,nah Anthony its safer down here ffs its almost valentines day and I can smell prefume being sprayed,

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  29. Anotony,

    This blog i very interesting lately. I am currently ploughing my way through 'The Lost Revolution' by Hanley and Millar. Very educational. I am currently at the stage of the Provo/Official split and it has given me an insight that I think is relevant to the comments on this thread.

    Sinn Fein/IRA in the 1960s was the true inheritor of the republican tradition of Wolfe Tone, the Fenians and the IRB, and like them in the 1960s were seen by the majority of Irish Nationalists north and south as being somewhat eccentric, not necessarily bad, or even wrong, but dreamers who would be better off turning their attention to bread and butter issues. Except for rare moments of crisis, this is the way republicans always have been seen (and are seen now).

    Anyway in the 1960s, the IRA either out of genuine idealism, or political opportunism starts to move to the left, which causes a lot of internal strife, just as this is coming to a boil the whole civil rights thing explodes. IRA membership mushrooms and the split occurs. Here's my point, the Provos were not only not Republican Socialists, the majority of them were not even Republicans. I've put the word majority in bold for good reason, yes a significant minority were republicans, who either did not buy into the socialism or who ended up on the Provo side because of personal or neighborhood loyalty. But the majority ended up in the provos because they wanted civil rights and to defend their homes and loved ones, not because they were committed republican revolutionaries. Now that they've got their civil rights, they are happy to return to being bourgeois nationalists.

    I think Larry's FF in the South SF in the North is totally understandable. Both parties pose at being republican (waving tricolours, attending republican commemorations) while at the same time are quite willing to persecute and imprison (and in the case of FF, execute) former republican comrades. In a way SF are worse because they pretend to be socialists something FF tend to avoid doing (although there was Bertie Aherne's bizarre claim to being a socialist some years back).

    As for the Officials/Worker's party, well they are a ghost party, bled white by splits and the fall of the Berlin Wall. I have read their newspaper and seen some blogs, I've even talked to ghostly voices down a telephone, but I've never seen or touched a WP member since the Democratic Left split.

    Personally, a expect to be shot down over this, at this stage of my journey though the weird and wonderful world of the Irish Left, I think the remnants of the old Republican Spirt, if they remain anywhere, are in the INLA/IRSP. That said the recent decommissioning is hard to fathom. But if they exist anywhere I hope they have learned that for a revolution to succeed you need the support of the mass of the people, plus a fair measure of the security forces of the state. Perhaps at some times in the 1970s and 1980s such a situation almost existed in Ireland. Maybe the troubles really were a lost opportunity, but I don't believe the majority of the provos were ever really revolutionary and now they are certainly no different from FF, FG and Labour in the south.

    Rory

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  30. Rory, I think your analysis is close to the money. I think a combination of 2 factors led the Provisionals to where they are today. The fact that they were a genuine response to Brit repression and not actually a response to the Brit presence per se coupled with the morphing from political movement to cult. Both of these can co-exist quite comfortably with a non-republican outcome; the first because republicanism is not what drove it; the second because it is a case of 'we follow the leader wherever he wants to go.'

    The Irish revolutionary left have been a major disappointment. Many of them were attracted to groups that were mere outlets for their authoritarian personalities. Working with them for a while and I soon got a sense of why they were treated with contempt by republicans who had gone out of jail with a mind towards advancing the left and then met up with those types and had their hopes shattered. People who were for real in terms of risks and radical politics were not going to be won over by Trot squabbling.

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  31. good show Rory yer getting there a cara

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  32. Interesting discussion, Rory. In relation to republicanism, and specifically Irish republicanism, I think we sometimes assume that the term has some clear, innate and pure meaning and we are constantly then using this assumption to say 'this person is a republican, this person is not a republican'. I think that everyone who uses the term Irish republican should be forced to define it first, or give his particular definition, and then enlighten us as to who is or who is not a republican by that particular yardstick. Sometimes people say they are not Irish nationalists, but they are Irish republicans, and for the life of me I'm not convinced they are necessarily different things, depending on one's definition of nationalism I suppose.

    So for someone like myself who has supposedly been an Irish republican since about 1980, it would be nice to hear what exactly people think a republican is?

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  33. I still cannot believe that there are people who are saying Sinn Fein are a peoples party. Just because their so called activists are doing what they are paid for, giving a bit of advice and filling in a few forms that entitles them to call themselves a party of the people.The Brits helped create those advice centres to do just that, do you thing they are going to risk their slice of Brit money by not doing their quota. In reality their allegiance to their own people has been dire, Sinn Fein have been quite happy to sit on committees which have put the boot into ordinary people, they have been party to all the rate hikes, the were at the fore in signing up to water charges. One Sinn Fein representative is paid a sizeable sum to sit on a panel in the Royal hospital £10,000 (The same amount paid to Big G to walk on water in the Holy Lands)which has been a contributory factor in the closure of many wards. Many of there activists live pretty lucrative lifestyles, unlike the poor misguided individuals who vote for them. On a last point I am old enough to dispute the fact that we are now better off than we previously were. I agree with Mackers if you want to vote for a partitonist party, vote SDLP, at least their leader has a degree of credibility.

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  34. well Sean if I may , Iadhere to the republican principles of Tone Emmet and the united Irishmen their aims and aspirations are how I define my republicanism,I try to regard myself as a socialist republican following the lead of Connolly and Mac Diarmada.I to can find no difference between Irish nationalist or Irish republican

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  35. fuck that Fionnuala thats just pussyfutting put all the fuckers against the wall, and we ain got no shortage of walls that those fuckers helped create

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  36. Seán Mór,

    This is my own simple definition of a republican. Someone who believes in a 32 county independent Irish Republic and is prepared to work to towards it by any practical means necessary.

    The home rulers, the SDLP, Cumann na nGaedheal and many others were nationalist but not republican since they were happy to compromise on some type of devolved government or partition or both.

    This is just my definition and it is open to correction.

    Rory

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  37. Marty, thought you were spreading the bed with rose petals for Marie?
    You should not be inciting things such as putting people against a wall and shooting them on St Valentines day. Although it worked somewhere before, which is more than can be said for the rose petals if your back at the computer already?

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  38. Fionnuala

    I totally disagree with you about nationalists not being better off now than we wee years ago.

    I don't see how the issue of living lucrative lives has anything to do with it. There are many thousands of SF voters and actvists who live what some might describe as lucrative lives based on the fact that they have a decent paid job, they live in a decent house that they fully pay for, and they have three or four kids who have gone or are going through university.

    Then you have a sizeable number of people who criticise these people but the same folk spend eight days out of seven drinking in pubs and clubs about the road - how they can afford it is beyond me.

    Staffing advice centres and helping people in the community through form filling or wlking about streets at the weekend, or running day classes in all sorts of educational or vocational topics is a valuable contribution to Irish society and if it were such an easy job, how come the SDLP don't run as many of these things in our communities?

    As I have said before, the party and all in it is not perfect but imo they are much better than the rest and I hope our vote continues to hold, if not rise.

    Slán

    Westie

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  39. Westie, will all due respect. The SDLP do not have advice centres in West Belfast, However, when Dr Hendron had his surgery down the Falls he was extremely helpful to local people on loads of community issues. No shinner has ever come near my home and asked any of us do we need help with anything, not an invitation by the way. They are well paid and extremely well subsidised by the Brits, to run classes, centres and whatever else they are told to run. People are worse off than ever, because our so called revolutionaries turned reformers or is it informers? I can never remember the proper term. Anyway these people have not produced one single reform that has helped their own people, our promised salvation turned out to be a conn. I once asked Eoin O' Brien during one of his rants about how much thay had improved peoples lives, they being the shinners, to name one improvement, sadly he could not.
    When I was young there was a sense of community, people looked out for each other. Now all we have is a pack of useless politicans that are so detached form ordinary people, that it would be impossible for them to have genuine empathy or any understanding of their plight. It does matter that former revolutionaries turned community activists have feathered their own nests. It matters because they done it on the backs of their own peoples struggle. Personally I hope it all tumbles down round them, however, if you think they are worth voting for that is your choice. Just on a final point, the shinners are as Nationalist as the SDLP, politically you could not fit a fag paper between them.

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  40. Fionnuala

    When you say they are well subsidised by the brits, surely that applies to an awful lot of people in the North, including those who receive multiple social security benefits, or those who receive Legal Aid to defend people who can't afford to pay for representation. That will always be the case so long as partition remains in place.

    I know there is a lot of ill feeling about who got jobs in Advice Centres or within SF generally but a lot of these people put a lot of hours into doing their job. I think of Councillors in West Belfast who are continually working on behalf of the people in their communities, be it for local facilities, to clean up certain areas, improve lighting and safety at night, and help local GAA or other sports clubs in their quest for equality of playing areas etc.

    I agree with you about the sense of community we once had, a lot of which was possibly down to the seige mentality we rightly felt at that time. I don't accept partition for a second and don't recognise it in my life as an Irish person. I practice my culture, including language and sport like any other Irish person, in fact I think we in the north take it much more seriously than a lot of people in the 26 but that is what happens with time. Maybe it is Reform we are experiencing at this time, but who is to say that reform will not lead to a united Ireland some day through continuous campaigning that this is what we are about and by a generation of persuasion of the traditional unionist population in the North.

    I don't blame SF for the decrease in that sense of community - I think it is much more complex than that and some of it is down to people being generally better off financially, the fact that there isn't an obvious struggle on the streets, the number of immigrants living in traditional republican areas, increased crime and lack of parental direction for a lot of our young people, and many more reasons.

    Talking of which, benefits to Nationalists that I recognise nowadays from my own days growing up - the Brits aren't patrolling the streets, the RUC don't get away with calling kids all the Fenian B**tards of the day and brutalising them by night, in fact they barely exist and will be totally gone in the coming years, we have lots of funded Irish speaking schools and lots of jobs created as a result, such as teachers, class room assistants etc, children don't feel as if they need to risk jail or death, rather they can truly regard themselves as equals when it comes to pursuing their chosen career path, without having to worry about their name with a fada ruling them out of certain positions, Naionalist can speak openly about heir very nationalism and aspirations in the workplace, that certainly wasn't the case when I started work, and finally we have lots of improving sports and other youth facilities in our areas, albeit there is always room for more.

    This will always raise the question of whether this all would have been achieved without the Republican struggle in the North and what this brought SF by way of their strength of hand in any negotiations with their opponents. Anthony made the point about what we have now as being seen as a sell out by any volunteer who died. I cannot dispute that position but times and situations move with the context, and I am fairly certain that, as with ex prisoners and ex volunteers, there would have been many of our fallen dead who would have followed the SF leadership and there would have been many who would have totally disagreed.

    As a side issue, I think Rory's point about whether the Army was made up of Republican Revolutionaries or young nationalists who did what they had to do in the face of blatant oppression and bigotry is a very interesting historical point.

    Slán

    Westie

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  41. Westie, Why are you so sure that the ruc/psni wont be here in a few years. Do we have another name change on the way?. Or mabye,like the kappo with a baton, or gun, or whatever,certain people, will police their own areas?

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  42. Tru

    If the question was a serious one, i.e. not in jest! I think that the PSNI is already a very different organisation from the RUC, and what remains of the old guard will retire or leave within the next 5-10 years.

    It isn't ideal but we needed rid of a poison force and Patton commenced that change. This type of change never happens overnight but it is change and the change will continue. Like every other society too, we need policing anf justice policies, processes and personnel.

    Slán

    Westie

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  43. Westie, read your response and had to pinch myself. Seriously cannot believe that you can equate a person claiming benefits multiple or otherwise, which I am sure they are perfectly entitled to, to an organisation i.e. Sinn Fein that has allowed itself to be funded in part by Brit money. People who claim benefits are not subsidsed by the Brits. That is a ridiculous statement, the Brits occupy our country, which means our taxes go to the British exchequer who delves out the money accordingly.
    In relation to jobs in these Sinn Fein centres, I worked in the very first one on the Falls Road. I worked extremely hard and never took a single penny. You seem to be missing the point in relation to Sinn Fein and the work they do!
    Of course they work for the community, you cannot claim votes and big wages and then go and sit in the loo, although some of them would be better doing that. The point I was making was they are not a people party, they are power and money driven party,which means that essentially they are detached from ordinary people. You cannot live the lifestyle some of these people do and relate to ordinary people. It like oil and water they don't mix. You say you cannot blame Sinn Fein for the lose of community. You infact blame it on immigrants and irresponsible parenting. When Clonard was rebuilt, Sinn Fein sat as they do on all the relevant committees. Yet our area like many other areas was redesigned by the brits and police , their input was bought by regeneration money, their return was a guaranteed lose of community.
    In relation to what you say about immigrants being part of the problem, to be honest I find it quite sad that have that type of a mind set. I really do not know if you are I are currently in the same country Westie, the Brits have not gone away, economically and politically they are more entrenched here than ever. We were bought lockstock and no smoking barrels. The Brits do not need to occupy our streets. MI5 sit in Palace Barracks, spying to their little hearts are content. "They haven't gone away you know" All this about things being easier and more equality in relation to jobs, I have always found it a nightmare to get a job, not because of my name but because I was an ex-prisoner. Just had a letter this morning to tell me my house insurance had been cancelled for the very same reason. Yeah we have really moved on!

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  44. Westie, I hear the land of candy trees and soda pop rivers, can be nice at this time of year, please send us a postcard. The name may be changed, but its still a force that is loyal and royal in an occupied part of OUR country.

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  45. Fionnuala

    Just want to return on one point first of all.

    I wasn't in any way blaming immigrants on anything. I was giving my opinion on what is different in terms of the sense of community from say, the seventies and eighties and nowadays.

    I think our society is richer for having such different cultures so if you picked that up, that is not what was intended. I was talking more about the fabric of our communities in areas like Divis, Grosvenor, Clonard, Beechmount, Iveagh, St James, Whiterock, Balymurphy etc.

    I do blame parental guidance a lot on this as I work with a lot of kids in sport and other activities and in a lot of cases, I despair at the lack of or absence of direction, guidance, sense of decency that appears to be prevalent. Then you have practically every home having at least one car, kids live in cyberspace, people lock their doors at night for fear of some of the scum roaming our streets. Hope this clarifies my refernce to imigrants, which I am happy to retract.

    As for Brits still being here, I know that too well and I will live the rest of my life hoping and in any way I can, trying to change that.

    if you recall, I was answering your question about how nationalists are better off and I was giving a list of things that, imo, are better for my kids than what I experienced. I hated seeing Brits with guns ion the streets and they no longer are. With regardtohousing, many of the old and elabitated houses / flats have been replaced with decent more modern housing, Beechnount being one example and that was very much a SF campaign for years.

    I live in the same country ok and the same city and I am very proud of that fact.

    Tru, I've seen your words written on the wall - I tend to disagree- things are changing, mainly through Personnel recruits and it is a start.

    What would you have suggested as a realistic alternative to get rid of the RUC?

    I'll send you that post card from Béal Féirste Thiar.

    Slán

    Westie

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  46. Westie,

    If parents do not take responsibility for their children then it is surly better to ask why, rather than instinctively blame them, for if you simply go down that road, the next generation of parents is likely to be the same.

    Many kids for a host of differing reasons have never had a parent as a role model who behaved in the manner you wish. Behaviour is learnt, we reap what we sow.

    It is the same with the vandals/whatever, you call them scum, in reality they are your own or you neighbours kids. I remember once a working telling me the war on drugs should be supported, when I reminded him this war would be against our own kids, he became less keen.

    Of course those with power, whether locally or nationally like nothing better than when we workers turn inwardly against each our own. As this place the blame for such things on the individual, and not the society which they oversee and absolves them of all responsibility.

    Yes people most take responsibility for their own, but calling them scum is hardly going to encourage them to do so.

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  47. Westie, Why oh why, is the favoured word, "alternative". A great word when the back is to the wall. We had no alternative [but to surrender] what would you have done? But i ramble, alternative to ruc/psni. Mmmm, mabye instead of trying to currie favour with cathloics with a 50/50 police force,Investagate, catch, try, name, and jail all ruc/psni. personel involved in collusion, murder, false statements,turning a blind eye, etc etc. Mabye when that and more is done, there could be a small bit of trust as a stepping stone. DONT THINK SO

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  48. Hi Mick, what you say is sound and I,d like to nominate you as an honorary Irishman, which means apart from buying loads a drink,come the revolution you can help drive the tank through the big house of capitalism

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  49. If it wasn't for you Westie this debate would not be as vigorous as it is.

    You must feel like I used to at SF meetings - surrounded by opinions at variance with your own. Still, you fight your corner. And unlike in SF different opinions are welcome.

    I know you were not being anti-immigrant when you made your point. However, you weakened your argument when you referred to the dole. That is the defence of last resort, only ever to be used when nothing else is left. People who out of economic necessity take the dole can hardly be equated with those who have been incorporated into the state system or the economy for political reasons.

    What you say is right - people in SF take jobs because they might wish to help their communities or improve the economic situation of their families. But at another level the widespread insertion of such a body of people into the economy fits easily into counter insurgency strategies. Kevin Bean wrote an excellent book on this. It helps give the British state the result it wants.

    Furthermore you seem to realise yourself that there will be no united Ireland. You seem to be a reformist advocating a reformist strategy. That's fine but why not accept that instead of dressing it up as republican? A reformist strategy that does not kill is better than a republican one that does. So, I would have no problem with you being a reformist. Just don't see the need to present it as republican.

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  50. marty

    Now about that tank, you must know I have no HGV licence and now due to your thoughtful suggestion I may fall victim to Gerry's Harriers. All is not lost, a very helpful young lady at my Job centre plus told me there is a company which trains tank drivers whilst on the job, apparently they are based in a place called Helmand, although sadly it does not seem to come up on my Tom Tom. But no worries I am still on the case and with a little perseverance I will be available to carry out the task in question, if you could let me know the date and time you will need me.

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  51. well comrade Mick ,the great bearded one has prophesied a united Ireland by 2016.I have established that Easter Sunday in that year falls on the 27th March, so I have provisionally penciled in Monday 28th around 11.30 am,bring a big piece with you, and no I dont mean weapons ,cheese and onion should do nicely,as for a hgv licence never worry about that a few of us drove buses in 69 and we didnt have licences fuck we didnt even work for the bus company

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  52. Westie,
    Genuinely apologise for taking you up wrong in relation to the immigrants. I really thought you meant that these people were part of the problem. Just would like you to answer me one question in relation to Sinn Fein. Why do they have a man who has been exposed over and over again as a serial liar as their leader? Mr Adams has been wriggling and squirming on a variety of different hooks for months and yet, apparently, his popularity has risen amongst his supporters, WHY?

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  53. Fionnuala if I may in ref to your last question ,I quote MLK,"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sinscere ignorance and conscientious stupidity

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  54. Fionnuala

    Glad we got it straight about the immigrant issue - I am trying to introduce some of the kids into Gaelic sports and they show more potential than some of the locals - think it comes down to the fact that they appreciate having a football whereas some of our own think a ball is for losers in comparison with their new gadgets!!

    On the point of Gerry A, there is obvious loyalty to a man who many many people still associate with the history of the Republican Movement during the latest phase of the struggle and the development of a legitimate and very successful political arm of what those same people believe to the the genuine Republican Movement in Ireland. I know most on here will jump on that statement but that is my opinion on why he is what he is, and his mandate in West belfast may well increase in this election - I personally hope that is the case. (Don't hit the machine!)

    Anthony, I know you keep calling me a reformist and maybe you're right - I haven't studied the definitions enough to argue for or against.

    What I do know about myself is that I have lived all my life with the same aspiration from about 9 or 10 years of age as I do today. If I hint in my writing from time to time that i don't believe there will be a united Ireland, that is somewhat misleading - I genuinely do think there is a chance that it will happen, and perhaps in my lifetime. I believe that, because circumstances in this world can change relatively quickly, by one-off events, by changing economics, softening of some mindsets, hardening of others. So I don't rule it out at all.

    What has changed is my views on the armed conflict as a means of pursuing or progressing that objective. I have said before that I thought the armed struggle was legitimate and moreover necessary in the face of the onslaught in the late sixties, it developed more into military war in the seventies and early eighties and lasted a fair bit longer, and theoretically could still be going nowadays. But the war was never the 'end game', it was a phase, like many other generational phases of revolution beforehand which was aimed at forcing the Brits to leave. The decision to end this phase was, imo, the right one and what I see as Sinn Féin's raison d'etre now is to pursue unity through whatever means possible. For me, if sharing power with other Irish men, albeit from a polar political perspective, helps over a decade or two, as opposed to having English people running our daily affairs, I will go with this, at least for a period of time. I still want us to campaign and hassle the british government at every opportunity about their unacceptable presence in our country and I think more needs to be done in the 26 to reinvigorate the quest for irish Unity in every corner of the island. I must say, I get very frustrated when having converstaions about the North on my travels throughout Ireland when it feels like you are talking about a political conflict on the other side of the world.

    And finally, when i referred to the dole, perhaps I had in mind the many people I know who are on every benefit going, get a lot of other subsequent things paid for, and as a consequence, are actually much better off than those of us out trying to earn enough to pay the bills. That said, I wouldn't swap one for the other, ever, and I would never criticise them, I need to tap them for a pint at the end of the month!

    i just don't agree the line that SF, more than anybody else is being set up financially by the brits to suit their agenda. There's money in the pot and SF have always been good at getting it's share through community projects etc long before ceasefires or Armani suits.

    I long for unity amongst republican minded people - and it is the mind in all of this which is most important - maybe then, Irish Unity will become the focus of all our attention.

    Slán

    Westie

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  55. Westie, I know you are genuine in what you believe, however, Gerry Adams is a particularly vile individual and I do not say that lightly. To be honest I would say most of the contributors to Mackers blog shared your beliefs and aspirations at some times in our lives,until most of us realised it was all hot air.
    In relation to your comments about people on the dole having better lifestyles than workers. Maybe that is the case I genuinely do not know. However what I do know is there are a lot of individuals at the fore of Sinn Fein who have accumulated excessive amounts of money and they have never worked in their lives. One of our own home grown Clonard entrepreneurs owns countless houses, flats and the odd downtown bar and had the audacity to give lectures on Che up until last year. How can these people give lectures on a man who had everything and sacrificed it all?
    Westie why does their hypocrisy not bother you?
    Like yourself I worked all of my life. Also like yourself I would not choose to have it any other way. However, some times we have to get real about these people.

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  56. Westie,

    I know you hope at some point that something the rest of us can't foresee might happen that would lead to a united Ireland. But do you not feel that the only way you see it happening - through persuading enough unionists - is blocked by the current SF leadership? The unionists are totally suspicious of being brought anywhere near a UI by this leadership. Paul Bew wrote an interesting piece on how this impacts on unionism. It seems there will be little in the way of genuine rapprochement between the unionists and a community that elects what unionists see as a party fronted by a particularly vile individual.
    As for calling you a reformist - it is not thrown at you in an accusatory sense. I totally distrust revolutionaries. Orwell made the point that 9 times out of 10 a revolutionary is a social climber with a bomb. So it probably makes me a reformist as well. I don't see any republican solution to the issue of partition. I just resile from SF supporting the partition principle and then claiming they are republican. Why not just state that the republicanism they once stood for has been abandoned and all they are left with is a verbal republicanism which they for years lambasted and berated Fianna Fail for having?
    There won't be a united Ireland in your life time, or mine or either of our children's lifetimes. My youngest is 4 and he will never see a united Ireland. Blair made that very clear when he spoke in Belfast a few years ago - not even the youngest child in the room would see a UI was what he assured everyone. The fact is that there is nothing strategic to contradict him.

    'I believe that, because circumstances in this world can change relatively quickly, by one-off events, by changing economics, softening of some mindsets, hardening of others. So I don't rule it out at all.'
    That logic could see England unite with France or all Ireland come under British rule. There is actually nothing there.
    Down here the North is not an issue. And you are right - they see it as if it was a world apart. But one reason for that is they can't believe a word that is said by SF. As Nuala Perry points out the party leader is viewed as a serial liar. That is not thrown around for the sake of a put down. Willie O 'Dea fell for less.
    Contrary to what you say the war was fought to secure a British withdrawal. That was non negotiable. What was negotiatiable was the timeframe. Now SF has accepted the British terms for being here all along - consent principle.


    I think you need to revisit the strategic evidence available that would lend great support to the view that there is a Brit state strategy to incorporate SF into the system. It is not just coincidental.

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