Ignorance Is Not Always Bliss

Sean Mallory with his 2018 swansong makes the point that:

Ignorance is not always bliss....sometimes it's just downright obnoxious!

England’s duplicitous interpretation of her role in Irish history was best summed up recently by two Unionists – one a Conservative MP and the other a DUP MP.

Priti Patel, having lost her cabinet seat due to undeclared meetings with representatives from the Israeli government, declared that the British Prime Minister Theresa May should use the threat of food shortages to pressurise Ireland in the Brexit negotiations.

An abysmal comment that only highlighted her complete ignorance of Irish history and Britain's direct role in directing and organising the genocide of several million Irish people during the years of the Great Hunger.

Not to be out done and disingenuously implying as much historical ignorance as Ms Patel, and never one to shirk controversy, Ian Paisley Junior with his tweet on the Roscommon eviction continued to expand upon 19th Century Britain's malevolent and unjust social policies in Ireland.

While dismissing calls for his resignation from another undeclared holiday scandal, Junior tweeted the above remark about a security firm from the North being employed to evict two elderly brothers and a sister from the only home they ever knew, their farm in Roscommon.

And like the reactions of locals to the evictions from Britain's hand in 19th Century Ireland, the locals of Strokestown rallied together and after handing out a beating to the British militia returned two of the three back in to their home.

Just as Dublin Castle condemned the attacks by various agrarian vigilantes on the local constabulary and authorities as they went about their lawful eviction business, the turn of two centuries later saw Taoiseach Varadkar and Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan condemning the attack on the security firm but not questioning the validity of evictions occurring in this day and age and under their watch.

Some people just can’t help being obnoxious. Patel can be held accountable but ultimately not responsible for her own ignorance having never experienced Ireland and its history, whereas the opposite applies to Ian Paisley Junior who seems to specialise in being obnoxious 24/7.

Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence.

Sean Mallory is a Tyrone republican and TPQ columnist 

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Anthony McIntyre

Former IRA prisoner, spent 18 years in Long Kesh. Free Speech advocate, writer, historian, humanist, and researcher.

44 comments to ''Ignorance Is Not Always Bliss"

  1. While there's still probably a lot of detail to be revealed about the actions, and indeed the inaction of the borrower, which ultimately led to the evictions in Roscommon it needs to be said that KCB were naive too in their choices of responses. Whoever made the call to enlist the services of a N.Ireland security company to enforce a court order in an area where Republican sympathies have not been unheard of needs to have his ass hauled over hot coals.

    I have a hunch that as more details emerge about the borrower and the 'ribbonmen' who re-instated two of the evictees the initial popular reactionary support for them will quickly evaporate. Most sensible people know that all debt is eventually paid. If its not paid for by the consignee then some of the costs incurred by the lender will be spread and applied as extra charges to all other borrowers and a proportion will be paid for by the bank's shareholders due to bad debt write-offs on the balance sheet.

    Let's presume a borrower takes out a secured loan; the loan is secured against the collateral the lender contractually proffers. Bare in mind, secured loans usually have significantly better rates of interest than those applied to unsecured loans. If a lender takes advantage of a preferential rate and then reneges on his/her responsibilities his/her collateral then become lawfully redeemable. If a financial system is to work lenders have to be able to cash-up the collateral offered as security.

    (Its also important to remember that since the Family Home Protection Act that lenders are loathe to accept a home as collateral unless they have all signatures where there is joint ownership. Maybe the youngest sibling had total ownership? If not, then this matter needs to be further clarified before we rush to judgement.)

  2. This little article coupled with Ed Maloney's about squares the circle of Irish history. Maybe just does not quite reach the depth of treachery and evil.

    Another article I would point out is

    Beware TPQ is section 31 coming back.

  3. James - the scent of Section 31 has always been about and it has stirred the appetite of many. While the Provos claimed to be its target they were perhaps its most avid practitioner. Blogs like this which value free inquiry are well used to dealing with it.

    Henry Joy - I wonder if there is any society where evictions are prohibited or can be. For an eviction free society to exist, housing and accommodation would have to be free: the ability to remain in a property an inalienable human right, protected in all circumstances. Most people probably only pay the rent or mortgage because they will be evicted if they don't. And in the case of neighbours from hell...?

  4. Paisley Jr. has all of his late father's bile, with none of the charisma or charm. Interesting that he casts members of a loyalist terror group as "proud Ulstermen". The media in both Ireland and the UK habitually ignore the very close links between "respectable" Unionism and loyalist terrorism. Members of Loyalist terror groups march proudly in crypto-Masonic Orange parades, and nobody bats an eyelid, whereas Corbyn gets in the neck for much more tenuous links to the Provos and Hezbollah.

  5. Shortly after becoming Taoiseach in 2008, Brian Cowen was caught on a live mike in Dail Eireann referring to the Fine Gael front bench (including Varadkar presumably) as "Freemason fuckers". Maybe this salty remark goes some way towards explaining modern Fine Gael's (and their Irish media fellow travellers) fellow feeling for Orangeism - which is after all a sub-sect of Masonry.

  6. Northsider, that same media in Ireland and the U.K. also tells us who we should hate(brexiteers, Russia and Trump for example) and folk still lap it up. Common sense isn't common.

  7. Btw, most sensible people don't know that some debt is more equal than others and does indeed get written off depending how well regarded you are. Hence why the ribbonmen acts are welcomed and needed.

  8. Henry J

    The banks will be extracting blood from the next couple of generations of Irish citizens for circumstances the banks created. We all appreciate that borrowers should repay what they owe but in Ireland that burden does not fall on the privileged banks and its hierarchy. The banks have not only deceptively secured huge sums of tax payers money to bail them out but they actively encouraged people to borrow above their means. If only the same ruthlessness had been applied to them as they heavy handedly would apply to the borrowers.

    Defaulting borrowers are only symptomatic of what the banks created. Blaming the borrower misdirects focus from the source of the problem. The likelihood is that it will take more evictions by arson before the bankers are slapped down. I am aghast at how the creators of the mess still collect exorbitant bonuses and have become the victims. While hard working people missed a few repayments and we should demonise them.

  9. Wolfe tone: Couldn't agree more.

  10. wolf tone,

    you're not wrong when you say there's an inequality when it comes to debt write down. Off the top of my head I'm aware of two former Taoisigh whom have benefited from such. Though I'd contend such inequality is less common than in previous times.

    A little tension between the forces of chaos and the forces of order is often necessary for creative solutions to emerge. To that degree I see some merit in the actions of the mob. On the other hand I'd rather live in an orderly civil society where the social contract is broadly worked, where citizens have rights as well as responsibilities rather than exist in anarchistic chaos.

  11. Christy,

    even if I agree with much of the central thrust of your comment I can't but think that in the end of the day our elected government hadn't many other viable options but to socialise the debt. The forces of order made the correct choice. Had they not bit the bullet and made the painful choices they did the chaos that would have ensued is way, way beyond the mob's imagination. Sure there're some, who in their fantasies, would love to see Ireland as a Cuba on the edge of Europe but after three days, never mind three months of living within the chaos of hyper inflation due to the enforced re-introduction of the punt, coupled with the swift exodus of multi-national employers, these would-be revolutionary socialists would all be crying in their potín and wondering would it have been better perhaps, better just maybe, to have paid the bond-holders!

    Laxed financial controls and light-touch regulation facilitated the decent into chaos. They were, and will remain for a very long time to come, of the old order.

  12. Henry J

    I don't agree. There were no EU Laws that demanded that Ireland guarantee financial speculators get a return on their bad investments. Ireland was only obliged to bail out the national bank but not any private ones. Bad investments made by German syndicates and speculators were not the the responsibility of the Irish people.

  13. No laws Christy and yet the ECB advised that a metaphorical bomb would go off in Dublin if the debt was reneged on. If you believe those were empty words then good luck with that type of analysis.

  14. Henry joy,
    The problem, for me, with your analysis is surely you're just delaying the inevitable. If you leave a section of society unaccountable for their actions, then surely such actions will continue unabated until serious damage is done. What are we to rely on? The financial markets morality, good luck with that. The crimes these people commit should be punished. You don't have to imagine Ireland as European Cuba for that to be the case. Some of the language used by the ecb etc is similar to blackmail, should we accept that?

  15. Agreed DH, those who commit financial crimes ought be prosecuted. I've alway felt that Anglo's auditors and those of some of the other institutions should have been pursued. Of course that would've depended on the State putting together a credible case.

  16. Hj- the inability or unwillingness of the state to prosecute the financial sector is a massive problem. I.e in America most of the regulators in Washington end up working in wall st. Which is an idiotic concept. I understand peoples aversion to confrontation with these powerful institutions, but for me it's a bit like paedophile priests too big of an issue to ignore and the fact these people are immune to prosecution turns my stomach. I realise it's never simple but some things have to be opposed.

  17. Henry J

    I did not say any EU/ECB threats were empty words. Whereas, you deliver your response definatively as if I am unnessessarily medling with a metaphorical time bomb putting all our lives in peril for questioning the integrity of lumping us with others finacial losses.

    If Ireland was not breaking any EU/ECB rules or regulations by leaving non-national private financial spectulators to burn rather than its own citizens why do you see that as such a terrible thing? And what sanctions could the ECB impose if Ireland was not at fualt with EU laws? Ireland was being threatened not to default in repaying private financial speculators for losses to private banks and individuals which were not representative of the legal entity of Ireland and its instuitutions -including the Bank of Ireland.

    Our chances with any 'metaphorical bomb' , so to speak, would have been better in proximity to its fallout rather than swallowing it whole as we did.

    No doubt in years to come we may learn of financial relationships that influenced who should be bailed out and who dumped-upon. Like others, I thought the laws of treason, and not criminal law ought to have been applied against the bankers and any politicians involved with the sort of skulduggery that had occured. Laws of treason might continue to be relevant possibly to any Irish politicians who prefered to serve the interests of foriegn investors and speculators than the nation and its citizens whom they had a duty to serve as elected representatives.

    If, as you have said above, you believe people should pay their debts, then the Irish citizens are out of pocket for generations to come and people ought to be held accountable for their role before and/or after the economic crash.

  18. Christy & David,

    nowhere in my comments do I condone the actions of the rogue bankers who got us into the financial mess we found ourselves in. Like all citizens bankers ought be subject to due process. Where there is a deficiency in law new legislation ought to be introduced. Of course that requires active citizenship. It requires the electorate to vote according to their needs and their conscience. Unfortunately, this has not happened to any significant extent.

    One of the 'Big Five' personality traits is conscientiousness; some people score high in conscientiousness and others score low. Some borrowers will score low, as will some financiers. There rightly must be deterrents inbuilt to the system which discourages such behaviour. When such deterrents are seen to be flawed they ought to be upgraded and updated. Games of cat and mouse will always be played out.

    The points I've been making on this thread reflect those realities. We ought to be well informed before we endorse vigilantism. Otherwise we may end up endorsing the unconscionable actions of 'tea-leafs' ... 'tea-leafs' regardless of whether they are banking executives or cattle-rustlers.

    Others will be left to clear the shit they leave in their wake. With the benefit of hindsight, I'd contend Lenihan, albeit perhaps under severe duress, made the correct call.

  19. Henry,

    Do have any idea how the banking system actually works? You come across at times as an apologist for banks.

    Fcuk the ECB/IMF/WHO and all central banks... a short 3min 21 second video (whole interview is almost 30mins) Richard Werner explains how banks screw people over, lie and steal on RT

  20. Frankie,

    I'd like to think I've a healthy interest in how things work, how they realistically might work better or indeed how they might even work at best. Its a continuous learning process of reviewing and updating. I won't claim I get it right all the time but on balance I figure I do OK.

    In the end of the day there is a large measure of truth to the old adage that 'it's money that makes the world go round'. Only a complete crackpot would seek to deny that. Whether banks take deposits or whether they borrow money from the public ... whether they give out loans or buy securities is a debate well beyond my pay-grade. All said and done its intellectually pedantic I'd hazard, to those who seek capital in pursuit of enterprise; enterprises which sets out to service needs and wants which also in turn generates employment thereby and hopefully creating security of tenure for workers and their dependents.
    If you want to use a more simplified systems of 'lets' (local exchange trading system) you'll have to live a more limited life. Unfortunately such systems don't crunch up very well and aren't efficient outside of the local commune. Its a complex world and such alternatives won't match peoples needs. So good luck with any alternatives you might have!

    Like bankers or loathe them we can't function in a world of complexity without these financiers.

  21. Hj- your points are always well made, I disagree with you here. Imagine you're in your districts credit union and say the community has a million collectively deposited in said union, the treasurer of the union goes to Vegas gambles the money and loses. He then borrows a further 2 million in the districts name and loses. On his return home he proposes a deal that the union collectively borrows 3 million from his brother at the central credit union to cover the losses and keep the union going but in return you'd collectively owe the central credit union 5 million. As the district was unable to pay the debt the solution was to work for the central unions affiliated companies for reduced pay on longer hours, all the while the treasurer maintains his cushy lifestyle, would you accept it?
    I know you don't condone those responsible but i feel you give them an easy ride. What's wrong with guaranteeing peoples savings without being responsible for inter banking fraud?

  22. DH,

    as Richard Wemer states in Frankie's link banks are needed for almost all forms of economic activity.
    My point is that they need to be policed. In the example you give the debt was socialised. My contention is that this is a better outcome than having the banks collapse. Reneging on the debt would leave those working for companies affiliated to the central union suffering horrendously as did Russian state employees in the '90s, no wages for months on end.

    If Ireland had screwed the bond-holders we would most likely have been forced out of the EMU. We would to have had resurrected the Punt which would have been very weak against hard currencies. The cost of imported goods would have sky-rocketed. We would have had hyper inflation. With hyper inflation would come greater potential for civil unrest. The uncertainty of the situation would have brought us closer to chaos. The multi-nationals dislike uncertainty and prefer order. Within days never mind weeks they'd been putting their relocation teams to work.

    Like life David, none of this is fair. Retreating into idolistic fantasies of the left just don't cut it anymore for me!.

  23. Hj- I would no longer describe myself as socialist or even left wing. Nor do i subscribe to their theories. Your analysis of the ramifications of standing up to financial elite is probably accurate, that's kind of my point. How high is social justice in the priorities of our society. Do we allow people to commit crimes because prosecuting them would bring collective hardships? What are the collective psychological impact on a society with a limit to justice? Are we even a democracy when elites are untouchable? Personally I would have sought prosecution regardless of consequence. I do concede that a lot of my beliefs are emotional and therefore limited.

  24. HJ- Another query you or someone else could explain to me. If the US could prosecute the mob under Rico where if you could charge one with conspiracy, you could charge them all. Why didn't that apply to the financial sector? Surely what they done is a criminal conspiracy? Or what about paedophilia in the Catholic Church, why can't bishops, cardinals or even popes be charged with conspiracy or perverting the course of justice? I know that's naive but it seems we don't even pretend to be a just society anymore.

  25. Henry,

    Then I am a crack pot who understands the banking system OK. If we are to evolve as a species then money (all forms) have to be taken out of every equation. Google Jacques Fresco A world without money....Watch it and watch it again.....

    "whether they give out loans or buy securities is a debate well beyond my pay-grade"

    Here is Richard explaining in simple terms about debt free money...If you learnt anything from history, then you will remember Andrew Jackson beat the banks and Connolly warned everyone on the island about them. The UK has no money. The money lies within the square mile and they are out of reach from normal courts.

    "Like bankers or loathe them we can't function in a world of complexity without these financiers. "

    I wouldn't piss on a banker who was on fire. I would let him burn to death. I have no respect for any banker. I want to die with as much debt as humanly possible. Not only can we live in a society with out money but have free energy too. Telsa had free energy figured out almost 100 yrs ago. A while back you laughed at the idea of giving the one finger salute to the FIAT banking system and at least go crypto...Do a simple google search of countries that have already started going down that road. The debt in the 26 counties works out at 44,678euro per person....The interest on the national debt is 322euro per second..... Irish debt clock, have a look at it. There isn't enough gold mined to pay of the world debt..Kinda fucks up the gold standard, printing worthless pieces of paper only uses up ink. And everytime whoever wakes up and clocks in/out of work as Fresco said, "They are paying homage to a facist dictatorship."

    "If Ireland had screwed the bond-holders we would most likely have been forced out of the EMU. We would to have had resurrected the Punt which would have been very weak against hard currencies"

    What hard currencey...US Green Back, British Pound, Euro...Russian Roubles all backed by thin air.

  26. David,

    Your questions aren't naïve. There are a lot of people asking the same questions why RICO isn't used against bankers and as for the cover ups by the Vatican...

    Short version is they all piss in the same pots, drink in the same bars, go to the same massage parlours and abuse the same kids...Then they go on TV at 6pm and tell you how to live your life and how to spend your money..And every other year they ask for your vote to give the illusion you have a say in your life.

    Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee they drink...

  27. David H,

    as the old school master is reported to have said 'the only wrong question is the question not asked'.
    Unfortunately this aging guy, despite his bluster, doesn't have all the answers. However he does have opinions and thoughts on these matters.

    At the most fundamental level I think Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche nailed it when he said 'There are no moral events ... only moral interpretations of events'. However as the moral psychologists point out, and perhaps even complement Nietzsche's view, there are instinctive physical evolutionary templates for disgust or repulsion which protect from disease and illness; most animals for example will instinctively avoid rotten fruits, carrion or feces. Similar emotions are also evoked when we transgress indoctrinated collective codes of behaviour. Those feelings become transposed as moral thought and judgments. They are advantageous because they serve the cohesiveness of the tribe or of society.

    As societies continue to evolve and become more complex they introduce more rules, more codes and more laws. Often though the law makers are playing catch-up and hopefully responding to inconsistencies such as you draw attention to. Eventually bad law becomes good law ... until the process repeats.
    Social justice aspirations may be little more than an expression of a need for greater security. Those self-interested folk who lack self-reliance will often tend to be to the fore in making cause for a juster and safer society. Ironically though if chaos emerges they may be the first to rally behind a strong leader. (That may be useful information to bare in mind going forward).

    Finally David those that aspire to be informed need to be judicious when the conspiratory theorists shout loudest. Continue to question and be aware that a stopped clock, like Frankie, will be correct twice a day.

  28. Henry J

    It is questionable if Ireland could have been kicked out of the EMU as it is designed to an 8ntegril part of the overall EU. It has no authority or function to police private borrowing and their repayments. The EMU functions at state level to ensure economic stability of EU memberstates. It can ensure Ireland repay its financial commitments but Ireland was not defaulting on its repaying it debts. Ireland was not, is not, responsible for the lending and borrowing between private individuals. The economic problems arose from the rise of hedge fund lenders and borrowers. It is a high risk form of trade because it I'd not based on real capital. It is a high risk investment speculation model and Ireland stepped in and quatentred any private speculators who had gambled on Irish customers. They should have been burnt to hell but instead the Irish people were.

  29. Christy,

    we'll have to agree to disagree on what was possible and what was probable. For better or for worse the unpalatable choice has been made.

    "Politics is not the art of the possible. It’s the art of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable".,

    - John Kenneth Galbraith

  30. Henry,

    Your second last paragraph was full of 'if's, but's and maybe's', which in real terms means Jack. I would rather be correct twice a day than never at all. And you still haven't told me or explained how the banking system that you apologise for will figure out how to eradicate world debt. We know there isn't enough gold and silver mined, or yet to be mined to cover the debt, there is no way close to enough of phyiscal money to cover the interest owed never mind making inwards to paying the debt....What's your solution? Ignore it and let keep rising?

    "those that aspire to be informed need to be judicious when the conspiratory theorists shout loudest. "

    Are you talking about politicians and bankers who gather in small groups in smoke filled rooms and conspire with each other in how best to screw Joe Bloggs and his family? What informed people do is look at all the available evidence and make their own minds up.

    "Those self-interested folk who lack self-reliance will often tend to be to the fore in making cause for a juster and safer society."

    The people who lack reliance are the bankers and they are ones at the fore making a cause for an unjust society that makes this rock less safe....

    "Ironically though if chaos emerges they may be the first to rally behind a strong leader. "

    What hapeens when a strong leader emerges is they are tied to a chair and shot dead, or shot dead in a car in 1963, has a heart attack while climbing a mountain (Robin Cook), has a mug of tea at bedtime and doesn't wake up (John Paul 1st), A modern day version of chaos is the yellow vest's in France who are asking for a fair deal, they get arrested and beaten by state forces but when the west want regime change in the middle east the west fully support yellow vest's and regime change..

  31. Hj- thanks for your response. It's thought provoking , i'll get back to you. Right now am going to watch the Celtic and drink whiskey

  32. Hj

    The issue is not so much about the choice made but who should and should not continue to be accountable.

    Irish politics is too often the art of making the disastrous palatable. The choice may have been made but scrutiny of how it was made has barely even started because so much continues to be shrouded in secrecy.

  33. Frankie & Christie,

    in this world to a large extent we're constantly moving in unknown territory. When navigating the unknown its necessary to tolerate risk and uncertainty. That to my mind is an unavoidable and an often unfactored for existential truth. To ameliorate our angst we all take our comfort in various ways, in mood altering chemicals, addiction to ideology, religion, conspirator theories and fantasies, accumulation of wealth and so on and so on. Yet, when stripped back there's no escaping the ongoing existential risks and uncertainties which life brings.

    Few will face all of that full on. Most will gravitate towards the familiar and safe rather than to the untested and unknown. Most will choose order over chaos. This why change in the social order is glacially slow. Radical changes changes as evidenced in those led by Mao and Stalin were only implemented through chaos and didn't ultimately last. It could be well argued that those societies are reverting back to an orderly system almost akin to what they sought to overthrow.

    To the degree that we might accept this generalised rule that people prefer order and will shun chaos we might better understand the potential for, and pace of, change.
    There are probably possibilities for crypto-currencies Frankie and there are noble aspirations in your comments Christy, yet I can't see the changes you advocate for gaining traction in the short to medium time-frame. None of that is to dismiss the need for an avant-garde; for a society that becomes too attached to good-order will stagnate and eventually fail also. Change requires an ongoing tension between order and chaos, and like peace comes dropping slow.

  34. HJ

    I am not talking about someone who could as easily make a wrong or bad decision as a good or right one - by way of a reasonable judgment call. We don't know if the right or wrong judgement call has been made or on what full facts the decision makers based their course of action. Why are the identities of the private investors protected and not disclosed? We have a right to know who exactly we owe billions of euros too. My quess is that these individuals were gambling with hedge funds and not real wealth just like the assholes we bailed out. If that was known by the decision makers then there would have been bad faith on the part of our decision makers to turn those collapsed hedge funds into real capital at the expense of their own citizens. These are things not too late to know. If banks can continue to evict people from their homes then the decisions made are still up to be challenged. If there was bad faith then as a nation we have a right to recover wealth obtained by deception.

    You seem to have an unquestionable trust in the Irish decision makers, maybe that is well placed? But what information did they have outside of threats and soundbites from the ECB?

  35. Christy,

    an unquestionable trust in the Irish decision makers? No, I don't have an unquestioning trust in them. Nor do I have a fixated distrust. On the balance of probability I'd hazard there are more conscientious and decent people, than there are crooks, in the various departments of the civil service, including those of finance and justice.

    I do agree though we ought have full transparency. As previously stated I also believe the auditors of these institution need to be held accountable too. There is ongoing litigation though which may preclude full disclosures at this point in time. Sean Quinn's gamble on acquiring a majority stake in Anglo Irish Bank is what precipitated, or at least accelerated, the revelations with regards to the shenanigans at play with the Irish banking sector. To the best of my knowledge proceedings are still pending.

    Quinn, with some justification to my mind, is taking action to redeem his loses made on bad bets. He purchased contracts for difference, or futures, in Anglo based on a duplicitous set of trading accounts. I'm not sure he'll succeed in his case but it will bring further information into the public arena.

    (If I understand some of these financial instruments correctly Christy I think hedge funds are legitimate enough. Are they not merely a spread of investments, a spread over equities, commodities, property and cash? Futures or contracts for differences are much akin to betting on whether the fly will be further up or down the wall on any given date. They are purely speculative and probably more prone to manipulation by large purchasers. Therefore they require closer scrutiny and regulation).

  36. HJ

    I do not disagree with you on the ratio of honest/dishonest public servants. Transparency is one credible way to ensure that if bad decision were made that it was done I n good faith. We do not have transparency around significant decisions that have crippled the Irish tax payer for generations. That is simply wrong and sufficient to sound alarm.

    If you think Quinn has a justified position then surely with similar misinformation or incomplete information then the Irish tax payer should expect the same consideration you give to Quinn? I do not agree with your defeatist view that 'the decison' has been made and there is nothing we can do about it now. I would draw some parallel with the Apple Tax Swindle.

    Hedge funds are legitimate but less regulated and when they go wrong they usually do so catastrophically. This is why sovereign states, such as Ireland, are entitled, and if fact, have a duty to protect its citizens from detrimental adverse effects of private speculators or investors. On that count the Irish decision makers appear to have failed in their public and civic duty to the nation. If they acted in bad faith and against the full information available to them then I'd say, given the consequences they brought down on Ireland, then they would knowingly or recklessly committed treason against the nation. The strength of that argument is dependant on information that we are not permitted to know... that creates the environment in which dishonest public servants can thrive. Hence my scepticism of the decision makers whom you seem prepared to blindly trust in the dark.

  37. Christy,

    from earlier

    "Like all citizens bankers ought be subject to due process. Where there is a deficiency in law new legislation ought to be introduced. Of course that requires active citizenship. It requires the electorate to vote according to their needs and their conscience. Unfortunately, this has not happened to any significant extent."

    It seems to me, the average Irish citizen isn't as exorcised by these events as you are. There is whistle-blower legislation to allow anyone come forward who believes s/he has a story to tell ... and as yet, after all this time, no treasonable suggestion has been proffered. Doesn't this tell you something?

    Finally Christy I consider my appraisal as more tinged with realism rather than as you suggest with defeatism. Though you may continue to contest this I'd rather leave it to the reader at this stage to consider the merits or otherwise of our positions.

  38. HJ

    My appraisal is tinged with pragmatic reality that when secrecy is required it is usually to conceal relevant and available information: that if known at the appropriate time would have resulted in a different outcome. My position is based on empirical knowledge that secrets cannot be concealed forever... in addition, the economic bust was so significant that it will likely be scrutinised by historians and economists alike for decades.

    Treason is an archaic term and I use it loosely... depending on the nature of any bad faith will determine any actual charges or accountability.

    I note your position with regard to the Irish people being misled or influenced by incomplete information is at variance with your more sympathetic understanding about Quinns ability to make a fully informed decision.

  39. Christy,

    its not unusual that people whom have experienced excessive injustice would tend to assume when anything goes wrong, that some great conspiracy has been inflicted upon them yet again. Many of us who contribute to the Quill will fall into that category of having experienced injustice or of having our lives shaped by it. Our vulnerability to conspiracy theories is probably proportionate to the degree of the injustices, real and perceived, which we've experienced. There's in all likelihood, a negative confirmation bias at play.

    Its easy for those of us us who may have biases towards a particular set of the political class or to financial institutions to attribute malice to that which might adequately be explained by mismanagement or tardiness when it comes to due care. The intent which Frankie and yourself attribute to government and the financial sector as a whole remains, at this point in time, largely unproven.

    As Napoleon Bonaparte is reported to have cautioned,

    ‘Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.’

  40. HJ

    That's a rather patronising copout to avoid defending your obviously flawed position. You argue that, regardless of intentional secrecy, nothing underhand has been done by politicians and financiers alike in lumping the nation with private debt that will take generations to repay.

    You ought to read what is being argued and not succumb to your Frazier tendency of conducting a physchoanalisis of the speaker -- the humour in Frazier is how he is always incorrectly analysing other people's motives and reasoning.

    I have said very clearly that we do not know the integrity of what decisions have been made. Globally, it is known that when those in power can make decisions based on an intentional lack of transparency then that creates the conditions where bad faith cannot be ruled out.

    You argue the Irish people should not be afforded the same fair consideration that Quinn should have with regard to acting on disinformation and deceit. You say the Irish people should accept their lot and just pay for others greed because decisions have been made and they are cast in stone. Whereas, I say when or if new evidence comes to light then the circumstances of those decisions can be reviewed. That is a long standing principle of justice and fairness.

  41. HJ

    Re: Bonaparte quote is not applicable. In the absence of transparency we cannot adequately determine the truth one way or the other.

  42. Christy,

    the situation is that many elements of all this still remain sub judice. As well as Quinn's case Denis O'Brien successfully secured an injunction against RTÉ preventing them from discussing his agreements with IRBC. Most other elements of the MSM have backed off too following letters from O'Brien's legal advisers.
    The reality is we're a good bit off full disclosure, with the IBRC commission of investigation not now estimated to publish its full report until March 2020. Whether that amounts to an intentional lack of transparency is highly debatable.

    I've acknowledged the need for transparency before. At 10:11 AM, December 31, 2018 I wrote,

    " Christy, an unquestionable trust in the Irish decision makers? No, I don't have an unquestioning trust in them. Nor do I have a fixated distrust. On the balance of probability I'd hazard there are more conscientious and decent people, than there are crooks, in the various departments of the civil service, including those of finance and justice.

    I do agree though we ought have full transparency."

    In continuing to ignore or distort my stated positions your argument risks becoming vexatious.

    The inter-bank loans to Irish banks from German and French banks, along with purchases of Irish Bank Bonds were entered into based on a reasonable expectation of prudent over-sight and good regulation. That over-sight and regulation was a requirement of the EMU and the ECB. The Irish Government acting on behalf of the Irish people implicitly if not explicity tendered that security to those lenders and investors. Unfortunately the Government didn't act diligently enough. They allowed incompetence to take hold in the banking sector. What are the Government but the representatives and agents of the collective Irish people?

    It was up to the Irish Government to keep an eye on the banks. The Financial regulator and the bank's auditors failed miserably in that task. The Irish people paid for those failures.

    Prosecutions where evidence allows ought continue to be pursued. Any statute of limitation existing ought be extended to allow for the current constraints on transparency.

  43. The intent which Frankie and yourself attribute to government and the financial sector as a whole remains, at this point in time, largely unproven.

    Short version is people are told what to do by nothing other than a bunch of wankers in every sense of the word. At national and local level while welfare reform was being cooked up in some backroom (2012-2013) civil servants were blowing their load while trying to acess porn instead of sorting out education, hosptials, fixing the housing problem...list is endless.

    Hundreds of thousands of attempts were made to view porn in the Houses of Parliament, new figures show.....(Sky News 2013)

    Stormont system used 3,000 times in six months in bid to access pornographic websites......(Belfast Telegraph Oct 2013)

    I don't make this stuff up I am just joining dots. While Ireland was being financially raped by the ECB in 2012, at the same time Michael Noonan was attending a secret meeting listening to his paymasters agenda. When the meeting was over some of the heads went to northern California, put on satantic type gowns, prayed to a 45ft concrete owl called Moloch and then they all blew their loads in unison. Richard Nixon is on record saying the grove was " the most faggy god dammed thing you could ever imagine " Once all the partying was over they all went to their power bases to implement agendas set by unelected billionaires.

    In short while Ireland was being screwed, in 2012-2013 Noonan was attending a secret meeting that no one knows what happens apart from tax payers paid for it and some of the heads like to visit a grove afterwards and pretend they aren't gay only happy. And at the same time civil servants in London and Belfast were trying to acess porn at work at tax payers expense while figuring out Universal Credit and Welfare reform. Basically at every level wankers are running the show.

  44. Most sensible people know that all debt is eventually paid.

    Most sensible people don't have a clue about debt because they are lied to by the system the minute they start school. Most sensible people believe that each morning their glass of water is H2O, when it is closer to a glass of fluoride laced with lithium. When you find the time Henry I suggest you to watch these videos. How big oil companies conquered the world . Why big oil companies conquered the world conquered the world. Data is the new oil. Then you will understand who set what agenda in the 20th Century...21st Century my money is on Sophia Mk 2.1 (goto 17min 36seconds and listen).

    Niietzsche's view, there are instinctive physical evolutionary templates for disgust or repulsion which protect from disease and illness; most animals for example will instinctively avoid rotten fruits, carrion or feces.

    I know next to nothing about Nietzsche apart from what I read in comments here on TPQ although I know he liked Schopenhauer (who got my vote when I seen a quote of his tattooed to a blanket). Who ever thought animals don't eat what you said they don't is wrong. There are loads of videos on youtube with monkeys, elephants, antelopes eating rotten fruit to get drunk (they know what they are doing)..Same as animals who love a bit of carrion...rats, vultures, tigers, lions, beetles...And mans best friend loves a bit of dog shit to chew on...And they all do it instinctively. Youtube the videos yourself...I already have.

    As societies continue to evolve and become more complex they introduce more rules, more codes and more laws

    Who exactly are THEY henry? Are they the heads of Oil Companies and Bankers who set agendas whilst their minnows goto a Grove and be happy knowing they are setting Noonans agenda that continued to allow Ireland to be financially raped or civil servants who enforce welfare reform while trying to access porn?


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