Republicanism, Sovereignty And The Right To Life

Anne Mc Closkey, MB, makes a case for maintaining the 8th Amendment. 

Having given Ireland, her first and last colony invasion, plunder, pillage, famine, cultural subjugation and partition, our colonial masters in their boundless generosity now will pay to facilitate the killing of our children. In total violation of whatever pathetic bit of sovereignty is afforded to subjects of the crown here in the six counties, who haven’t the protection of a referendum, the English parliament has legislated to pay for women from this statlet to have abortions on “the mainland”. The decision was passed on the very same day of a court ruling that abortion provision is a devolved issue. It is a measure of the contempt with which we are regarded in Westminster. And it seems that we should, as in the past, tip the forelock and be grateful.

A Labour Party delegation visited local pro-abortion advocacy groups last week to offer help and support to bring we backward paddies into the bright new world they enjoy, where an abortion takes place every three minutes, one in five pregnancies are deliberately ended, and 90% of those with Down’s syndrome are “terminated”. These policies have cost the NHS 0.6 billion pounds, yes that’s 600,000,000 in the last decade, almost all of which was paid to private providers.

And where are the Republican voices protesting at this shameful denial of self-determination? Obediently silent, that’s where. Of course New Republicanism actively welcomes this. Their zeal for abortion means they can countenance even such a blatant insult to their precious Executive without protest. There are many who historically have voted for SF who are deeply uncomfortable with their position on this issue. But the Party is paramount, dissent is not tolerated, no votes of conscience will be allowed. It’s a far cry from the republicanism I was reared with.

Of course, this is not about the health and safety of women. Abortions are legally and appropriately carried out in every hospital in the land, when required, as part of appropriate medical care for women.

The laws on this island have historically been based on a particular vision of the common good, which places a high value on personal freedom, while limiting the deliberate ending of innocent human life. Protecting both women and their unborn children as far as humanly possible is not backward or regressive, but compassionate, ethical and hopeful. In the six counties, the lack of abortion on demand has saved the lives of 100,000 people. These are our friends, colleagues, family members, neighbours. It is a dangerous fallacy to measure rights or progress by our ability to end the lives of our unborn children. Choice must always balance individual autonomy with the rights of others.

The arbitrary selection of who is worthy of life, the reduction of the preborn child to offal, sex-selective foeticide, the weeding out of those who may have disabilities, or are “chromosomally challenged”, this, it seems is the ethos which should prevail when Ireland takes its place among the nations of the earth, and Robert Emmett’s epitaph can be written.

What is the point of having national self-determination, if we discard the values which have shaped us as a nation and as a people, and follow slavishly in the ways of the coloniser? Was this worth one life, not to mention the thousands who have given everything?

Surely the essence of republicanism should be to protect human dignity by whatever means are necessary. This obviously requires change to the current social order, but progressive change, not the culture of death. Irish women and men deserve better.

Our vision and objective should be to cherish all of the children of the nation equally, according to our own genius and traditions. We should not be ashamed of what our people suffered so much for. And if political republicanism moves away from this, then it leaves many of us behind.

Anne Mc Closkey works as a GP in Derry. Lifelong republican and community activist, mother and grandmother, stood as Independent candidate in 2016 Assembly election, polling over 3k 1st preference votes, founder member of Cherish all the Children Equally, a republican progressive organisation founded to give pro-life socialists and Republicans a voice and to campaign against repeal of the constitutional right to life in 8th amendment.

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Anthony McIntyre

Former IRA prisoner, spent 18 years in Long Kesh. Free Speech advocate, writer, historian, humanist, and researcher.

71 comments to ''Republicanism, Sovereignty And The Right To Life"

  1. Another one trying to promote a religious viewpoint under obfuscation. It's stuff like this that really isolates the other side. What the fuck has a woman's right to choose what happens to her body got to do with Republicanism?

    Sweet fuck all.

  2. fine article. good to hear a voice of reason and compassion coming from derry after all the bloody sunday march bitching and nonsense. also, and make no mistake, the main backers/promoters/strategists behind the repeal of the 8th amendment are not one bit interested in womens health. they (the multi billionaires like george soros who are funding pro abortion lobbies here) have a plan for ireland to be a centre of 'scientific' research - human genetics, bio engineering etc etc etc. whats holding this multi billion diabolical racket from developing here is our UNIQUE CHRISTIAN CIVILIZED HUMAN CHERSIHING BABY CHERISHING INNOCENT CHERISHING DEFENCELESS CHERISHING C-O-N-S-T-I-T-U-T-I-O-N. the thing us republicans laid down our lives for. WAKE UP PEOPLE - stop listening to nonsense 'debates' on msm about womens rights and progress and other such rubbish and get researching this issue urselves online before its too late. where is ur passion republicans???? - you all got ur knickers in a convoluted twist over a stupid bloody bloody sunday poster but will bury ur heads in the sand while mega corporations try and get us to change our constitution and destroy our innocent children in the most brutal way. where are the passionate women who have the courage to take on the totalitarian feminist dykes who are all over the media and are indeed PAID for their efforts. come on will ye and do something. abortion is bloody sundaymondaytuesdaywednesdaythursdayfridaysaturday. but ye will get enraged over a stupid poster. shame on ye.

  3. I don't really see why Ann equates Quisling $inn £anny with republicanism they are no more a republican party that the DUP is a 21st century party, on the issue of the right to life it surely must be a womans choice , consideration giving to, is this birth planned ,can the mother cope, is there support etc , I certainly would not judge any woman who decided that full term and birth was not for her , I indeed wish Thatchers ma had decided that and a good few other bastards in our recent history , what might seem as an aside Ann but in a roundabout way relevant ,David Attenborough a few years ago produced a documentary A question that will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later, dealing with the future position of governments in relation to the world population , with more and more children surviving childbirth and on the other end of the spectrum people living longer the explosion in the worlds population is rapidly becoming untenable and unsustainable, so the day is coming when like the Chinese childbirth policy and indeed parenthood may even be curtailed to the chosen view or as a lotto ,big bro how are you but seriously if mankind and I include all here is to survive the question on right to life may have to taken out of all our hands, one thing is for certain we cannot maintain the rapid increase we are witnessing at this present time , ..

  4. A p.s I apologise for this late add on but the point that I,m making above is that given what I stated above then really that whole question will then become irrelevant,

  5. interesting that super republican marty gets his information from the British Brainwashing Corporation's globalist mouthpiece david attenborough. this freedom fighter is happy to have the right to life 'taken out of all our hands'. yeah , whos a good little slave now, top marks for martybroy. this island was deemed over populated by gaels not that long ago. but, hey, you wont hear about that on BBC and how they sorted that 'problem' out. enjoy the telly marty and keep drinking the kool aid.

  6. steve, sorry to inform you, but the constitution of the irish republic acknowledges the right to life of the unborn, so there is one glaring connection for you with republicanism.
    a womans right to choose you say - choose what steve, what colour tights shes going to wear today - what shes going to have for dinner - what film shes going to see in the cinema - these are all choices steve. abortion isnt a choice, its something on another level altogether.
    and another thing, so what if people are religious/not religious on this issue. the child in the womb has no religion, and if it so chooses it can be an atheist for its whole life. religious people defend that innocent defenceless child just as much as non religious anti abortionists do. it doesnt matter to the child if the person defending it is religious or not. it is a new life, a new being, a new member of the human family and we welcome them, no matter what. failte romhaimh beautiful children, especially you who are deemed unfit for life by the diabolical medical profession. we cherish you all.

    I was a young boy that had big plans.
    Now I,m just another shitty old man .
    I don't have fun and hate everything .
    The world owes me so Fuck you ,,
    That is as far as I intend to go with someone who hasn't the balls to post under their own name ,

  8. Dear Fellow Contributors,

    Is there anything fundamentally wrong with the opinions expressed in this article? Seems like a very reasonable and well-intentioned and well-written piece of work.Some of the responses and the tone of these responses reveal more about who we are and the predicament we are in now than the article itself.The medical services in the Fraud State have recently been described by the head of the Nurses Union as 'a humanitarian disaster'. Think about this for a second before you start ranting about 'rights' or anything else. What the responses above tell us is that the old strategy of getting Paddy/Patty at one anothers throats-Divide and Rule-is still the hottest game in town. Except now the topic has moved on to gender politics and abortion.Will there be any lack of funds for abortion-related medical services? Do you honestly believe that your Masters give a tuppenny-damn about anything other than keeping you and yours in a state of subjugation and misery? For these people the bottom line is a type of mindless depredation in which usury and depravity play a starring role.For some time now, in order to justify this form death sentence, they have allotted to themselves the right to define whether a human being is actually 'human' or not- can you not appreciate the sheer arrogance of this? On this planet Earth even the scientists have come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING is alive. It is interesting to note also that the concept of 'bastardy' was unknown to the Gaelic Irish. The concept of 'unwanted' children is a relatively modern construct-think of the lengths that our long suffering ancestors went, during the Famine times in particular, to do everything they could to keep life in the bodies of their starving children. The sheer hypocrisy of the Fraud State and the Irish Bankers Charity Industry sending OUR WEALTH abroad. Why not devise a situation at home here in Ireland where every child is guaranteed a lifestyle and education even 1/2 as opulent as that enjoyed by Prime Minister Veradkar when he was a child.My friends-want to see what privilege looks like-check this out= What is beyond appalling is that there is a direct link between POVERTY and a woman's ability to give birth to and raise a baby in a positive and confident manner. Give every facility available to the Mother to ensure her health and the nurture of her child-how?- stop paying the bankers billions! Don't fall for the same old ruse-particularly when its at the expense of the voiceless. Solidarity is the basis of Liberty. Thanks

  9. Grouch,

    Even if that child is the product of rape, and thereby has a 50 percent chance of becoming a rapist?

  10. Anne,

    to the degree that a republic exists the wishes of the people remain sovereign. And a plebiscite allows for citizens to exercise that sovereignty.
    The high priests, and the high priestesses, are entitled to try and sway the crowd but ultimately each individual must make their decision.

    In the end of the day, and no matter how reluctantly, each must accept that decision ... citizenship means allowing for the crowd to choose Barabbas should they decide to.

  11. All these issues are not as clear cut as you see them Grouch. As a republican, surely you must allow space for individual women to express their own views and make their own decisions?

    1) "we cherish you all". the point is that nobody, except for adoptive parents, cherishes the unwanted child - neither the birth mother/father, nor the state and social services. So hard luck if the child isn't adopted for whatever reason. we all saw what happened to them until very recentlt in ireland. Tuam ring any bells?

    2) I question the wisdom of forcing a woman to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want. can you imagine the resentment she develops against the state,society, the father, the baby?The damage to her well-being and ability to function as afully participative citizen in her own country?

    3) our views on abortion are determined by our recent history in western europe. in the past they were very different.

    4), surely a medically controlled abortion is better than a backstreet abortion which has been women's traditional route out of unwanted pregnancies?

    5) - focussing on extremes distracts attention from all the "grey areas" where issues are not so clear cut. For example, What about the woman who doesn't mind having a baby but her doctor tells her that because of underlying health problems she'll most probably miscarry around the 4-5th month and an early abortion would be less traumatic for her - physically, mentally, psychologically etc.

    6) neither Church nor State has a role in regulating women's bodies.

  12. It's remarkable for the gullible to believe they are striking some blow for freedom by legalising abortion. Fact is if the govt didn't want abortion then they wouldn't entertain the idea. End of. At the end of the day society should be shown footage of various abortions I.e different stages of the pregnancies, and then the public should determine to endorse it or not. Alas the pro abortion lobby will wail at the very thought that the public might be presented with more facts concerning the issue. Btw, the oul 'religion is dictating how we live our lives' card is wearing thin; some of us are very non religious but we still know how to be caring etc.

  13. Wolfe Tone,

    Regardless of religion, you are appealing to emotion to emphasize your viewpoint.

    By your rational you would say no to hip replacements, I've seen them in real life. Brutal, bloody, and sickening...but for the greater 'good'.

  14. Dr McCloskey has been part of a small but principled left/republican bulwark that has had the guts and foresight to raise their hands and ask the majority of Irish leftists if they have really thought through the consequences of inviting the neo-liberal abortion industry into Ireland as an alternative to carrying on the age old fight for a benevolent and caring society capable of cherishing all of the children of the nation equally.
    As was predicted the so called 'pro-choice' left have in the majority of circumstances avoided what should be the central most important area of debate for Republicans and Socialists, that is 'what socio-economic forces drive the majority of women to opt for the negative procedure of abortion, and how can we as a society reduce and eliminate those forces'?
    Instead the 'pro-choice' left continue to bleat out empty accusations of religious guilt and other such nonsense presumptions, while abandoning the traditional Marxist analysis of economic coercion upon the working class, an undeniable and tragic retreat for Irish Socialism.
    Anne is totally correct to point out the value to imperialism (be it of the traditional British or neo-liberal variety) of promoting the abortion industry in Ireland.
    I shared this on the Socialist Choice blog, hope thats ok.

    Adh Mór Anne.

  15. hope thats a promise martybroy. on the subject of balls, i had the balls (or stupidity) to put my life on the line for u nordie navel-gazing nationalist nuckle-head numpties back in the day.
    steve, i dont believe that child has a 50% chance of becoming a rapist, that just doesnt make sense to me. the child is innocent. also, hip replacements dont end a babys life.
    euro free, i live near tuam, what are u saying to me - that those children would be better off aborted, would you say that to the survivors of those institutions.
    what u are saying about 'cherishing' dusnt wash with me, and moreover its sad that u can think like that - ive read ur comments here before and i know ur a gud person, but are u a product of a society that doesnt encourage loving and cherishing and im not just talking about children? i believe the modern state/media system is turning people into uncaring pseudo humans who are conditioned not to be passionate, loving, caring. i certainly felt cherished by people i didnt even know and who werent even related to me when visiting my parents places of birth in the countryside as a youngster (i grew up in dublin). i consider myself blessed for the childhood i had and especially for being exposed to the 'oldstock' of rural ireland, who when i think about it now, most would have been born at the turn of the 1900's. its hard to describe them to this generation who never knew them. they were from another planet sometimes i think. what a blessing euro. i most certainly felt cherished and i am absolutely certain i am not the only one out there who knows how loving that generation of irishmen and women were, who if poverty was a reason for having abortions, none of us wud be here. there is material poverty and soul poverty, they had the first but not the last. but just take a look at the media and political class who are now pushing for abortion here!!! a bunch of nauseating self worshipping egotistical spineless cunts who have taken the globalist shilling. ur point 5 dusnt make sense to me, doctors, even though they wud like us to believe otherwise, are not omniscient. on the subject of medically controlled or backstreet abortions - they are both brutally violent endings of an innocent life. when you say neither church nor state has a role in regulating womens bodies - i couldnt agree more. but its not a womans body euro. its a baby boy or baby girl, a new body, a new member of the human family that EVERYBODY has a right to speak up for (or not speak up for as the case may be). a defenceless innocent baby boy or girl, that whos body we have a right to regulate. the point one of the commenters above makes about the old gaels who did everything to keep their kids alive is gut-wrenching. the gaels were lovers and fighters but us new irish are losing that great humanity for which we were once universally respected. also, i dont watch telly but i saw a clip of primetime the other night. look what this bully/nanny state wants to do to people who dont obey their pharmaceutical overlords and want to keep their kids free from vaccines. these are the same mega corporations who are pushing for abortion here. when the child in the womb is deemed unhuman by its elders and supposed protectors, those mega corporations can do whatever the hell they want with that child, all in the name of 'research and development'. and heres us arguing about womens rights!!!! they have us well and truly where they want us. what strange anti baby anti child anti human times we are living in. those old people i knew growing up, who cherished us all, wud not believe how old erin has turned out. ar dheis de go raibh a n-anamnacha.

  16. Steve R, I too have seen footage of hip replacements, heart ops etc but in no way are they as 'shocking' as footage of abortions in my opinion. They are absolutely not of the same equivalence. But each to their own. I stand by the view that footage should be issued in order to allow the public to see what all the fuss is about and thus permit them to make an informed decision lest anyone thinks they were duped into voting for something and all that craic.

  17. Wolfe Tone,

    That's a normal hard-wired response in our mammal brains. If we see something small and human shaped we instinctively become nurturing towards it. But it's not a conscious being yet despite the emotive rhetoric that some might employ.

    I've been in theatres when hips have been replaced. If people saw and smelt the carnage involved I'd wager they'd say "Fuck that I'll limp!"

  18. Grouch - there's a lot to think about in your post and a lot to comment on.
    I'll reply Friday evening or Saturday - I'm just in from work and have a heavy schedule tomorrow too.
    If we are taking advantage of Anthony's hospitality, he can let us know and we can set up a venue on my site
    Best for now

  19. Wolfe Tone

    Not half as shocking as the footage of the death throes of children and adults in Assad's sarin gas attacks. I respect the views of people with pro-life opinions and and their rights to live their lives by them. Just do not ask the state to impose them on citizens of different religious or philosophical persuasion, especially those of the female gender Generations of Irish children were exposed to the moral and visual pornography of aborted foetuses with no discussion of the contexts in which women decide whether to continue or not continue with problematic pregnancies. Such psychological terrorism appears to have had no impact on the statistics of Irish women from all parts of the island of Ireland who have had to travel to Britain for abortions.

  20. sound euro, and i hope i'm still alive on sat. i never look that far forward into the future.
    barry - what are u on about?
    steve r, u are talking about mammals and brains and hard wires now, are u henryjoy's twin?

  21. There is no "neo-liberal abortion industry" pushing for legalisation of therapeutic abortion in the Republic of Ireland or any part of the world. The demand for abortion law reform comes from the lived experience of women with unwanted pregnancies. It is not for me as a man to ask that the law of any country forces any women to go through with a pregnancy full term. Irish abortion law, North and South, has always been related to the prevailing gender order with the official sanctification of women as mothers in the 1937 Constitution not as autonomous citizens with full agency. Abortion law is also related to inadequate sex and relationship education as any one (including myself) who grew up in an anti-choice culture can testify. An environment which is as damaging for young men as it is for women. The removal of the Eighth Amendment from the Constitution will signal the full maturation of the Republic of Ireland as a modern liberal democracy living the Black North as the most socially backward part of Western Europe. Oh the irony! Home Rule must definitely is not Rome Rule anymore!


    I notice that you have gone on riff about the so-called vaccination industry. Surely you are aware of the suffering that polio wreaked in Cork in the 1950s prior to vaccination. Do you really wish to visit the scourge of measles. mumps and rubella on humanity on the basis of Dr Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent research on the link between the triple vaccine and autism. The real agenda here was not the reach of Big Pharma but the search for a cure for autism (the us of bleach and the removal of supposedly harmful metals through chlelation therapy being two particularly exotic remedies). Well, i am on the autistic spectrum and have no more desire to be cured than gay people want to be "cured" through conversion therapy. It is rights and justice we neurodiverts seek from the dominant neuro-typical paradigms; just like the women's right to choose seeks to challenge and overthrow dominant patriarchal mores.

  22. Gilheaney, I don't bother reading your comments after I pointed out your ridiculous belief that saddam had WMD's when even the camels in the desert knew he hadn't. There's wiser eating grass.

  23. Again Steve R comparing like for like re abortions and hip replacements is like, to borrow a well worn phrase on this site, comparing apples with oranges. There is simply no comparison and the proof is in the pudding I.e show the footage of both operations and let the people decide. I would compare footage of abortion with footage of gunshot wounds(not the ones Hollywood shows us) I.e both equally horrific and if shown more often it might educate folk as to the destruction both can cause. Alas people will always try and square the circle in order to saté their belief that they are right and others are doesn't make them right though no matter what legislation is endorsed. I.e we will agree to disagree on this topic.

  24. barry, ur first paragraph is an absolute tragedy on so many levels and im just not going to go there.
    wakefield is a doctor who cares about children, noticed a link between autism and vaccines (hes not the only one) and for his efforts has had the medical mafia on his case ever since. ive an idea - lets guarantee natural healthy locally grown food for our children. lets guarantee them unpolluted uncontaminated unfluoridated water. lets guarantee them clean air. lets guarantee them not to be bombarded with evil violent sexualized debauched tv and computer games. lets boost their immune systems naturally. hey, why not guarantee all our citizens natural non gmo healthy locally grown food and pure water too. lets watch all the diseases of 'civilization' disappear. also, u say ur on the autistic spectrum. well you of all people should be opposed to abortion. you will be culled in the future when the 'scientists' can tell mammy to be - oh mrs gilheany, weve done an MPTKJHVOGF&^%&^%&^|":|": test on ur foetus, we're sorry to inform you that if you go ahead with this pregnancy your child will be on the autistic spectrum, this child could be a massive burden to you mrs gilheany and indeed could demand 100% of your time and attention with nothing in return. he also will be asthmatic and probably suffer very serious allergies. we strongly recommend you terminate this unhealthy and potential massive burden on you. if you just take the door to the left there, bernie can carry out the procedure straight away if you like and you'll be home before the afternoon. thanks mrs gilheany and have a nice day.
    now if u come back at me and say - well that would be okay if she chose to terminate because its her choice, then i am very sorry for you. we are all on some kind of spectrum barry, and all under threat. now PLEASE watch this

  25. Wolfe Tone

    This "ridiculous belief" of mine does not appear on my timeline. It is a figment of your imagination. Anyway, I could not care less whether you read my comments or not. Just skulk behind your moniker and join up with Putin's troll factories.

  26. Grouch you seriously didn't just cite Wakefield did you? Fuck me laughing!!

  27. do u laugh at the mothers and fathers who notice something going terribly wrong with their children IMMEDIATELY after vaccination, who are then told by corporate doctors its a 'coincidence'. theres a lot of laughing and sneering on one side of this debate, and a lot of tears on the other.

    barry, u mentioned here before ur phd on x-case. is it available to read online?

  28. Grouch

    First of all, Wakefield's research (on his own admittance) was speculative and has been refuted by every possible scientific and medical body and autism advocacy body. He was struck off the UK General Medical Council because of his unethical use of children as subjects for his research and for failing to declare a conflict of interest (he was acting on behalf of an anti-vaccination lobby in the US)

    Secondly my support for women's right to choose does not rest on eugenic arguments for abortion. No supporter of right to choose advocates state supported screening of the unborn for autism, Down's Syndrome or other genetic condition so that the disabled can be eradicated from the population (as happened in Nazi Germany) or the gene pool. Putative parents are entitled to relevant information about the health prospects of their prospective offspring so that they, and they only can decide whether to proceed with the pregnancy - no coercion in either direction.

    A bit of personal history as you raise the straw woman of "Mrs Gilheany". The actual Mrs Gilheany wanted me, since i was four week premature, to be delivered by C-section but her consultant insisted on a forceps delivery (Consultants were definitely God in those days).
    This traumatic birth is a major explanatory factor in my dyspraxia; the non-diagnosis of which blighted my childhood and early to middle adult life. So I do believe in the woman's right to choose throughout the entire journey of pregnancy and childbirth.

    I honestly have not checked if my thesis "Post Eighth Amendment Abortion Politics" is available online. You can try if you want. Somebody has my hard copy at the moment.

  29. Gilheaney, if you are gonna lie then remember your lies otherwise you could be made to look very sheepish. I recall highlighting your WMD conspiracy theory a while ago and you did in fact admit to the claim. Indeed you excused yourself by simply stating that although you did opine the view that Assad possibly got his wmd's from saddam's stockpile(the non existent one) you didn't think that now and 'a person was allowed to change their mind weren't they'?
    Now lets clear this up: you believed a few months ago, the possibility, that Assad had established many years ago some sort of Ho Chi Minh trail from saddam's Iraq to Syria whereby Assad could outwit the gaze of international inspectors by importing chemical weapons and thus this could be the clear evidence to prove Assad and Russia are lying and in fact the Syrian govt do indeed have wmd's. And therefore this proof could allow for the freedom bombing of the Syrian people you so much want to see. Sure why didn't you ring the UN and present them with your theory? I would personally take you to the UN just to get a good laugh.
    P.s 'putin's troll factories'? Really? Is that the best you can do? Pathetic and childish. Proof if proof were needed that the education system has indeed been dumbed down. Btw your paintings are pathetic and childish too lol

  30. Ta brón orm gilheaney, I take it all back I.e you did not posit the notion that saddam and Assad had a secret weapons trail. In fact you speculated ISIS got chemical weapons from one of saddam's non existent chemical weapon factories and that they(ISIS) in turn gave Assad the chemical weapons. Although your theory is wrong on so many levels bar in Hollywood studios I am glad I cleared my mistake up and in turn I have also reinforced my belief that you are as a mad as a bag of frogs.

  31. barry, all the reasons u stated above for discrediting wakefield in fact give him even more credit. yes he is an enemy of the mega powerful dark lords of the pharmaceutical industry and naturally will be discredited by every organisation they control including media. this is too important a subject for you and me to be arguing over here so lets let the man speak for himself and if any reader of these comments is interested let them make their own minds up.
    (the clip is repeated so no need to watch it all - 9 mins is enuf)

    most of the rest of ur comment - im not taking it seriously - and also its quite scary. but i will admit that it is written in perfect corporate phd codological language.
    i do hope some people listen to mr wakefields own words and make up their own minds. sad that you bleat out the corporations awful propaganda barry, really sad.

    btw i didnt introduce wakefield onto this thread as steve said. I mentioned vaccines and barry jumped in with wakefield. he is just one of many who has issues with vaccines. just thought id mention that. there is way more to vaccines than wakefield. thats why i didnt mention him.

    if people want to know more watch the video i mentioned earlier,

  32. @ Grouch
    i live near tuam, - those children would be better off aborted, would you say that to the survivors of those institutions.

    No but I would say it to the ones that died after a few months suffering cold and near starvation, poor medical attention and poor cherishing by the state. And maybe their mothers would agree.

    are u a product of a society that doesnt encourage loving and cherishing?
    I am a product of the toubles in North Belfast, the Shankhill Butchers, and our very own Murder Mile. We learnt how to survive. Some lessons are hard.Deciding to have an abortion is hard. I will not raise a voice or support a law to stop any woman. Nor should anyone else

    i grew up in dublin. i consider myself blessed for the childhood i had
    So you might find it hard to understand what women in the north went through.Their point of view is as valid as yours.

    being exposed to the 'oldstock' of rural ireland, most would have been born at the turn of the 1900's.
    Remember the age-group of women who may need abortions is 15-40. The oldest were born in the mid-late 1970s. They grew up in, and are living in, very different worlds to the 1900s and even to the 1980s.

    its hard to describe them to this generation who never knew them. they were from another planet sometimes i think. what a blessing. i most certainly felt cherished . . .

    I do not doubt the truth of your recollections for one minute.

    The old gaels who did everything to keep their kids alive
    Understandably – they had seen their families and communities killed off in their millions during the famine. Everyday they saw children die of polio, TB, typhus, diphtheria and other illnesses caused by their wretched living conditions and poverty.

    if poverty was a reason for having abortions, none of us wud be here.
    It’s not poverty – because the women who can afford it travel to the UK or another EU country. There are lots of reasons – one of the simplest is just being told women can’t have one . . . because . .. . .

    ur point 5 dusnt make sense to me,

    I was talking about when issues are not clear-cut (e.g. rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormalities etc).remember the law has to provide for everyone in the country.

    doctors, even though they wud like us to believe otherwise, are not omniscient.

    I agree, doctors may not be omniscient but modern medical technology comes pretty close. If a woman is told that because of some health problem she has
    “You will never carry this child to term. A miscarriage at 4-5 months will be much worse for you than an early abortion” – you can’t just say “The doctor may be wrong and the specialist called in for a 2nd opinion may be wrong too”.
    This woman has the right to guarantee her own health and well-being and to continue living her life as a good wife and mother to children she may already have. Otherwise, what’s the point of medical progress if it doesn’t make people’s lives better?

    look what this bully/nanny state wants to do to people who dont obey their pharmaceutical overlords and want to keep their kids free from vaccines.
    We’ll have to agree to differ here. Vaccinations have been one of the greatest advances in public health world-wide and in Ireland have helped eliminate all those poverty-related diseases I mentioned above.

    what strange anti baby anti child anti human times we are living in.
    Blame it on the 40-year old domination of the neo-liberal agenda – As Margaret Thatcher said “There is no such thing as society”

    Those of us who never agreed with her now need to pick up the pieces and salvage what we can. And we need to pick our battles carefully. There’s no point in fighting rearguard actions e.g. legal abortion that can never be victorious.

    those old people i knew growing up, who cherished us all, wud not believe how old erin has turned out.
    How do you know they wouldn’t be happy about some things that have turned out and probably disappointed in others? Like all of us in life.

  33. While I disagree with the premises underlining the article and the points made in it, I am glad Anne wrote it. I don't think the anti-Choice lobby should be silenced in the way it has historically sought to silence the pro-choice lobby.

    The crucial difference that I see between the two lobbies is that only one side believes abortion to be murder. Nor does society regard it as murder. And it is society that will decide whether abortion will be permitted in Ireland or not. The issue cannot really be determined any other way. I imagine we will reach a situation in Ireland where each woman will have the right to choose to have an abortion and no one will have the right to deny her one. If a woman wants to abort should the decision be made by her or by me?

    I don't like abortion but I don't imagine many of those women who opt for it like it either. I fully support a woman's right to choose. I am prepared to listen to and welcome any argument against abortion other than a religious one. I don't think what the great unicorn might think of abortion should matter in the slightest.

    There will be more of these articles from Anne appearing on TPQ which we are pleased to host.

  34. Wolfe Tone

    Thanks for the free publicity for my paintings. Fellow aspirant and established artists have noted I paintg in an Aboriginal or primitive style - a recognised art form. I am sure AM and other TPQ readers are wondering what my art style has got to do with political discussion.

    I am sure that AM has noted the personal attacks on me concerning my supposed madness and educational background. He may also have noticed your history of quasi-racist attacks on me concerning my name; stage Irishry or something like that. And while we are on the subject of nomenclature, a chara, it is normal good manners to address people by their forename or atl least the prefix to their surname (in my case Mr. or Dr.) We are not at school, prison or any other care or carceral institution.

    I mention Russaian troll factories because it has been from this ecology of misinformation that the online black propoganda campaign against the Syrian White Helmets which you endorse so enthustically has been generated. The same cdesspit that helped to produce Trump and, possibly, Brexit. See this expose

    Lastly to return to the original subject matter, your support for brandishing images of bloodied foetuses in order to deter women from seeking abortions. Do I take it that you think it permissible for anti-choice protestors to ambush women as they enter for Pregnancy Advisory or Brook clinics for pregnancy termkination; women possibly at the lowest point of their lives.

    I mention the images of Syrian children writhing in their death throes after sarin gas attacks and your david Irving type denial of these crimes as evidencde that the proteastations fo so many pro-lifers of the sanctity of human livfe appears to stgop at the birth of chilcren.


    You are totally right to allow Dr McCloskey and other pro-lifers a platform for their views. But I amn sure you remember the not-so-distgant era when people with pro-choice beliefs felt genuinely scared to express then in the family home or to friends or in public forums. I, for one, was banned rfom discussing that "1word" - the subject of my PhD thesis which I hope to submit articles to you from.

    You are doing a great job in your deconstruction of Elder Statesman Gerry btw.

  35. euro - i bet my life those mothers wudnt agree. but that is a subjective answer obviously.

    "So you might find it hard to understand what women in the north went through.Their point of view is as valid as yours." - sorry euro - what are we talking about here- women in the north is it, anyway, even if we were - are they like aliens from another galaxy or something - have u a partitionist mind-set ??? - i got groovy with some nordie chicks in my youth - a lovely breed, but not foreign to me.

    i dont get ur point about the "oldstock" - u state facts about timelines i have no issue with.

    "I was talking about when issues are not clear-cut (e.g. rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormalities etc).remember the law has to provide for everyone in the country."
    when u say 'everyone' do u include the innocent child. do u include the innocent handicapped child.

    "modern technology comes pretty close"
    when it comes to a child - pretty close is not close enough for me. and i will get back to modern technology at the end.

    "Otherwise, what’s the point of medical progress if it doesn’t make people’s lives better?"
    medical progress is an illusion and i will get back to that at the end too.

    ive adressed vaccines in comments above and encourage others to educate themselves (esp dr tent videos).

    euro - i cant argue with you about what the oldstock wud or wudnt believe about how old erin has turned out. that is all subjective too. but i can guess what you and me might feel like if we live to see old bones and the current corporate/eu/globalist agendas keep going. personally - i wont be happy euro if when im old i will be living in a country where the irish are a racial minority in a population of ten million - they have only last week told us to get ready for another million on top of the million already here in last blink of an eye - yippee!(dont get me wrong - i welcome sensible immigration policy and love the foreigner - but this shit is crazy) i will not be happy living in a country where most of the population will be living in cities as they announced last week - yippee again. i will not be happy if abortion clinics are all over ireland and bio technology firms are experimenting on foetuses all in the name of 'medical progress.' i will not be happy thinking about what ireland could have been if shed only stood up and had the courage to say - STOP THE GLOBALIST MADNESS in the years 2010-2020. but euro - i wont be as unhappy as those who went along with all this madness and voted for it because back then they didnt realise how controlled/manipulated they were by poisonous elite cliques of cultural marxists and corporate globalists like mr george soros and co. they will be weeping and weeping as they watch their grandkids emigrate becuz the lad from africa or the middle east or far east cetainly wont, nor will the sons and daughters of the gombeens and sleeveens who will still have this place sown up be emigrating, it will be those who have always had to emigrate who will emigrate - the sound and decent paddy. tears euro, thats what im dreading if i see old bones. also, call me eamon devalera if u want, but i know in my heart what the oldstock wud make of ireland now.

  36. part 2

    id like to share with u some wisdom from one of the greatest beings i have ever come across in my life and its totally relevant to this thread. the quotes below are taken from talks he gave walking on beaches in america back in the 70s. science and progress are not what we have been conditioned to believe - and please God, humanity is beginning to see that.

    ...scientists in key academic, industrial and government positions have shown that they are indeed capable of mixing personal beliefs and ambitions with their research, thus altering the results. When this happens we are no longer dealing with a search for truth but with a pseudoscience and its resultant array of distortions, fabrications and false information. Unfortunately, this unscientific method has been applied to the most fundamental field of scientific inquiry - the nature and origin of life...
    almost everyone in the world is under the false impression that life is born from is based on an incorrect theory; therefore all its calculations and conclusions are wrong, and people are sufferring because of we must challenge the scientists and defeat them....scientists cannot explain biological growth. They simply juggle words like molecule and chromosome, but they cannot actually explain the phenomenon...The modern world is a society of the cheaters and the cheated, unfortunately the cheated are eulogizing the cheaters and the small cheaters are worshipping the great cheaters...The law is cheating, medical science is cheating and the government is cheating...everyone is suffering here in the material world and scientific improvements means that the scientists are creating a situation of further suffering...I say to the scientists - if life originated from chemicals and if your science is so advanced then why cant you create life biochemically in your laboratories?...They have discovered atomic energy. Now they can kill millions at once. They have simply cleared the way for death. And yet they dare to declare that they will make life!

    finally, heres my problem with people who are pro choice. its not a problem, its just something that deeply saddens me. when u carry ur point through to its logical conclusion, you agree that if your mother so wished she had the right to abort you. that just saddens me. it makes me think ur just not fully alive and awake to the miracle of life. we all have had good times - im sure youve had the craic in ur day euro - teenager - listening to bowie for first time - getting groovy with chicks for the first time - having the craic with ur mates - falling in lovefor the first time - holidays if u were lucky enuf - etc etc etc. dont get me wrong ive had my shittimes too - but thats life. now are u willing to throw all that away just so a woman has the 'right to choose' also, i heard that sycophantic tartlet mlmd on tubridy the other night saying - i trust women, i trust women. listen to the language folks - trust/choice/rights. all a million miles from the brutal reality of abortion. but hey, you'll have plenty of time to weep when uve old bones and realised u missed ur one and only chance to defend the innocent from mass destruction. but wait. maybe it wont happen. maybe other countries will look again at destructive policies too, who knows?. maybe there are brighter days ahead. tiocfaidh ar la.

  37. Barry,

    I think I made the point about how the anti-choice lobby has historically suppressed the voices of the pro-choice lobby. While I think this debate is interesting I doubt if it will impact on any way in the referendum. It seems a foregone conclusion that the 8th will be repealed. In ten years time it will not be an issue, much like divorce, contraception, gay marriage which were all opposed back in the day by people who ultimately just had to go with the tide rather than the seeming futility of swimming against it. The biggest obstacle to the anti-choice lobby in my view is the endorsement of the church which has been on the wrong side of just about every human freedom.

    Yes, you get a bit of stick on this site from some commenters but I am sure you are thick skinned enough to deal with it. If we feel it reaches a point of being sheer abuse or bullying we will call a halt to it. But you have to be happy with the way the discussion seems to be going your way.

  38. Grouch

    Do you not accept that women who are denied abortions in ROI (and NI) jurisdiction wil simply have them anyway in another jurisdiction, usually Britain. Would you impose a travel ban on women travelling abroad for abortions and, if so, how would you police it?

    If abortion is murder (I am fairly sure that is her view) who is the murderer the woman or the doctor? If one or the other is guilty should they go to prison for life?

    To quote Hilary Clinton, abortion should be free, legal and rare. We make it rare through fully funded abnd universally available childcare childcare, comprehensive and compulsory sex and relationship education at school and beyond, proper disability provision in society and safe contraception for woemn. Plus free access to non-judgemental pregnancy counselling services.

  39. Gilheaney, my eyes started to glaze half way through thon rant. I ain't gonna bother with you anymore as its obvious again that there's wiser eating grass. When you started explaining your 'art' it confirmed again my view on it.
    Btw, if AM thinks the 'discussion is going your way' then I really think I have tuned into cognitive dissonance nutty farm.

    P.s because I think it is important to counter your British home office propaganda, if I am peddling propaganda concerning the terrorist white helmets then I guess that well known Russian troll/agent journalistJohn Pilger is doing likewise? For he himself stated that the white helmets were a front for jihadis. Ah well at least I am in honest company.

  40. Good news, the Russian troll factory has been in touch:

  41. Anthony, im not arsed about the words murder, termination, destruction of life etc etc etc etc. also im not arsed if society, the world and its mother dusnt regard it as murder. these are just words. its the actual procedure and its end product and what the child FEELS/SUFFERS/ENDURES - (mind bogglingly brutal mutilation and death) which most anti-abortionists have issues with - not semantics like murder etc. to be honest, i would strongly suggest anti-abortionists to refrain from using the word murder (who are a minority in pro-life anyway) as it could cause more suffering for women who have had abortions. you are aware that many women suffer terribly after having abortions, sometimes permanent physical and emotional trauma as well as inability to conceive - something which pro-abortionists are very keen at shoving under the carpet. the child actually struggles to stay alive and puts up a fight for itself when its home/womb is invaded by the cold sharp steel instruments of mutilation. there are better ways of dealing with unwanted pregnancies. the pregnancy mite be unwanted but is that child unwanted - and even if that child is unwanted by the mother, is it unwanted by childless parents in the country who would love and cherish it?- there are other ways. also - u keep going on about how the anti-choice (come on call us what we are - pro-life or pro-baby) lobby have suppressed the pro-choice lobby - how - by our control of the mainstream media is it!!!! come on guys - what planet are ye on - the entire corporate media/political shitstem has been playing a blinder for a long time now against us. with mega bucks from george soros and others. im no fan of the romans but id rather be endorsed by the church than soros and his kind myself. one thing the church is right about is when it talks about 'the culture of death' in the world now. a culture of death that twists everything around and turns death into a right. as i said already, when the child in the womb is not deemed human by its elders and supposed protectors, you are leaving it at the mercy of those wonderful people in the pharmaceutical/medical industry. but if thats okay with you then theres nothing i can do. the lefty liberals now have globalist diabolos funding them. there is no left in ireland anymore and there is no ireland either - just corporate lobbying and NGO social engineering and kool-aid addicts in a soon to be planted with millions of immigrants zone in western europe. slan ireland.

  42. Grouch,

    that is right - it is counter productive to call it murder as few listen and the arguments becomes emotive and heated.

    It might well be so that women experience all the things you describe as a result of abortion but make that information available to them and then allow them to make the choice. They do not need you or I to make it for them. If they wish to go ahead with it, then they should be free to.

    The power of the church has been used for aeons to suppress everything it opposed and it is invariably linked to the pro-life/anti-choice lobby. My position is very simple - let each of the sides contend freely and then people can make their minds up. I welcome Anne McCloskey writing here and we are committed to carrying her material. It is my hope also that we get pieces from Barry G on his perspective as well. Even though I am much more at one with his perspective I very much want to see the critique carried.

    The culture of death was no more apparent than in the AIDS epidemic that plagued Africa yet the church pushed that culture through the denial of condoms. We had the absurd situation in which Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo made up a load of crap and was universally ridiculed.

    Science is always a work in progress. It is a method and the scientific method is unrivalled in terms of human understanding.

    It matters not that you don't care about society: you are entitled to have a different opinion but women are entitled to a different opinion from you and to act on it.

  43. Wolfe Tone,

    having had to read the comments before posting, it seems very clear that by far the strongest case has been presented by the pro-choice side. They are more coherent, less emotive and all round presented more cogently. While I agree with the right to choose I am quite capable of seeing a weak argument being made on its behalf. I think the anti-Repeal lobby will be swept aside if they fail to up their game on what has been presented above. Time will tell.

  44. AM, time indeed will tell. However I would caution anybody who thinks this is in the bag. Like other elections of late there could be another case of underestimating the thinking of the public. Just like recent shock results there could be another chance for the public to demonstrate they are fed up with bullshit peddled by the media? For eg upwards of 80000 people marched in Dublin recently to oppose the abortion repeal far outweighing any numbers that the pro choice have mustered. But you wouldn't have heard much about that as it went very much unreported and downplayed in the media.
    At the end of the day the pro choice lobby will indeed be seen to have presented a stronger case due to the kid glove treatment they receive from a undoubtedly biased media. I merely argued that logic should be brought into the abortion argument I.e footage of abortions, so as to prove or counter prove either side of the abortion debate, and was immediately accused of being emotive. A standard riposte by the pro choice cheerleaders. One would've thought it would be common sense to show footage in order to put the topic to bed? Alas it seems some want to keep reality hidden. Just saying.

  45. this issue has nothing to do with the church's stance on aids in africa, i will post something for you on how aids developed, but i can already predict the charges of CONSPIRACY THEORIST! this isnt about aids its about babies. the romans and other religions are right to stick up for defenceless babies. u say scientific method is unrivalled in terms of human understanding - i agree. it dusnt mean that science cant be altered to suit the elites needs and be manipulated to protect its interests and promote its agendas. theyve been doing that since the pharoahs! the suppression of nikola teslas technology and countless natural cures (which are free and grow on trees and cant be patented!) for countless diseases by big business being just two examples. unable now to suppress the information on cures which is impossible in this internet age, they now try to ban certain plants and herbs. u dont believe everything u read in the main stream media im sure (which is owned by the mega corps as u know) but i also think you should be equally sceptical of main stream science (owned by the mega corps too). people who are opposed to certain types of main stream science, believe it or not, are scientists too, and not only scientists, but brave scientists because some of them realise there is consequences to their careers by putting it up to the mega corps. personally im delighted with the pro life side of the above debate and see nothing new from the culture of death george soros backed pro - choice brigade. but sure thats subjective too Anthony isnt it. as for your comment - 'It matters not that you don't care about society.' - i dont think ud find a person who cares more about the individual, the family, the community, the nation, society, the world, than my good self. u think i dont agree with you that women (or men for that matter) are entitled to have a different opinion to me - i do, but there is a third party involved in an abortion and i choose to speak up for him/her. and forgive me for being emotive on this topic - what should i get emotive about - liverpool f.c. is based on an incorrect theory; therefore all its calculations and conclusions are wrong, and people are sufferring because of we must challenge the scientists and defeat them....scientists cannot explain biological growth. They simply juggle words like molecule and chromosome, but they cannot actually explain the phenomenon...The modern world is a society of the cheaters and the cheated, unfortunately the cheated are eulogizing the cheaters and the small cheaters are worshipping the great cheaters...The law is cheating, medical science is cheating and the government is cheating...everyone is suffering here in the material world and scientific improvements means that the scientists are creating a situation of further suffering...Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

  46. Grouch,

    there will be no meetings of minds between us. Much like on the issue of evolution which you feel is another scientific myth even though the Church now accepts it. I am not going to accuse you of conspiracy theory even if I think it is. There is a serious difference of opinion and you are in no position to speak for the entity in the womb nor I against it. The woman will have to decide for herself and not have you decide for her, or me for that matter.

  47. Wolfe Tone,

    I am quite certain the 8th will be repealed. That is no guarantee that it will be. WE have been through all this before with contraception, divorce and same sex marriage. The trend is in the one direction. I have no objection in principle to people having the choice to look at photos or not to look at them. They should not be denied the right to look at them nor be compelled to look at them. But I do think the more information available the better and that includes footage or photos.

    In a society where there is such fundamental disagreement on the matter who is to decide? I don't feel I have any right to prevent a woman making a choice to terminate her pregnancy. Do you feel you have a right to prevent her? It is a rhetorical question which you should not feel obligated to answer but it is one we at least need to ask of ourselves.

  48. Anthony - u keep bringing up the church with me - im not bovered. francis is also calling for world bank and is asking europe to throw open its borders. so i wont be rolling out the red carpet for that lad if he comes. im sure the church does NOT support Darwinian evolution but leaves people to make up their own minds with certain guidelines but, as i said, im not bovered. darwinian evolution is the greatest load of dung ever come up by 'science' and has been proven so. it is exactly the kind of 'science' promoted by the elites which i talked about above as it suits their agenda. it degrades humanity. it is bullshit. it is propaganda. it is pseudo science. it is nonsense.

    to the issue of abortion - it is an industry. it is a global multi-billion dollar industry. it has targets (pun not intended) - it pays bonuses to those 'sales reps' who exceed their targets, it uses all the methods used by car salesmen to exceed their target - lying/cheating/cajoling. marie stopes is prime example - this is headline in daily mail:-

    One of Britain's largest abortion providers "paid its staff bonuses for encouraging women to go through with procedures" claims watchdog in damning report

    - Abortion provider is accused of paying staff to get women to have the procedure
    - Staff members felt 'encouraged' to ensure that mothers-to-be had the abortion
    - Inspectors found evidence of a policy in place across all 70 Marie Stopes clinics

    Read more:

    the spare parts industry is another nightmare business, but its sunday and i dont have the stomach to go there right now. love and peace Anthony.

  49. also, i just noticed you said this - "you are in no position to speak for the entity in the womb nor I against it." does that apply just to me? or does that apply to all men? what about trannies?
    i can speak for whoever i like me aul flower!!! and anyone can disagree with me. thats called talking.

  50. Grouch,

    it hardly just applies to me and you - all people, not just men. It might be a noble aspiration on your part but we can't speak for people who did not mandate us to speak for them. You have as much right to speak for the entity in the womb and argue for it to be born as the next person has to speak and argue for it to be aborted. Self appointed spokespeople don't get much traction. Some republicans claim to speak for dead generations and even go as far as to think they are the legitimate government of Ireland.

    I don't think for a second you are a churchy type. Strike me as anything but. Read what the recent popes have said about evolution - a scientific fact which in no way diminishes the role of a god in kick starting it all. People who believe in special acts of creation as easily believe America is six inches in distance from Ireland.

  51. as far as i know what any individual pope believes on this or that is just his opinion and not church dogma, and i certainly wudnt give a damn what the current lad believes on any topic. anyway i'll stick with the hare krishnas on evolution - they are light years ahead on all these topics. the celts believed in reincarnation too. anyone who believes in reincarnation will naturally be appalled at the idea of abortion. some evolutionists believe life started by accident when lightning hit water a few billion years ago. life came from life, not matter and that is why ALL science based on this falsehood of life evolving from matter is incorrect and has lead to the GIGANTIC SUFFERING OF HUMANITY. these nutters believe the reason you and me are here typing is because of a few billion more years of accidents and mutations. nutjobs. and its promising to see that some lecturers are getting laughed at by a more clued up de-corporate brainwashed internet age type of student who knows its nonsense.
    at least those republicans dont acknowledge the EU/globalist corporate oligarchy as the legitimate government of ireland. all the same, anyone endorsing armed struggle is an asswipe or an extortionist or a bully or very very misguided or mi5 and deserves all the bad luck he/she gets. embarassing douchebags the lot of them.
    on the globe in my sitting room, america is only four inhes from ireland.
    (note how she enjoys her salad)

  52. also, in case anyone thinks im racist - i am. some of my best friends are racists too. i know one guy who wears an - I AM RACIST - t-shirt. some of my best friends are black. some of my best friends are black racists. heres my favourite black irish racist.

  53. Grouch,

    Christian evolutionists have no problem with life evolving from matter. But they insist on god breathing life into matter. Their problem is not evolution but godless evolution. The alternative to evolution is to think we all just magically appeared as fully developed human beings.

  54. There is no such thing as an "English Parliament".

    One of many factual and philosophical errors in this article.

    There is a bigger issue for pro-life "Republicans" who did/would have defended the "armed struggle".

    Why the sanctity of pre-born in the womb which is utterly dependent on the womam but not that of all the born "legitimate targets".

    Sotto voce, "pro-life" advocates of capital punishment and those who ran the supposedly "pro-life" ghenocidal Catholic fascist regimes such as Franco's Spain (plenty of Irish nationalist hero-worship of that crusader(, Ustache Croatia and Tiso's Slovakia.

  55. thats interesting Anthony and i will look into that, but i am a saordonian creationist myself. the body is only one side of the evolution/creation debate. the soul is another mystery altogether.

    dr/mr Gilheany, ur being very pedantic there with ur comment on factual and philosophical errors in the above article. i think u mite be in error urself with ur claim that franco was hero-worshipped here. i never saw any photos of him over fireplaces - jfk and the pope yes, and even the odd jack charlton one in later years but i doubt if franco adorned any mantlepiece here.
    u go off on one about legitimate targets. my answer is maybe they regarded the unborn as completely innocent whereas sas men and paras mite be as u say 'legitimate targets'. but ul have to go ask one urself. on the subject of legitimate targets - why are u making legitimate targets out of babies with downes syndrome.
    also, are you blind to other genocidal regimes or is it just catholic ones that get on your goat. as for genocidal regimes, you're voting for one. dusnt make a difference to a defenceless child whether its an english fascist or a russian marxist or an atheist irish academic ripping its little body limb from limb.
    u are in grave error by advocating abortion. factual and philosophical errors arent that important at the end of the day and can be rectified. u cant rectify an abortion.

  56. Mention a United Ireland and it barely rates a response. Mention abortion and the citizens lose their shit. The author aside, theres been little female input in this discourse. Speaks volumes regarding the hoi polloi and voluntary choices.

  57. Grouch
    I'm sure there were many pictures of Franco adorning catholic mantlepieces in Ireland. The RC church sent a Brigade under Eoin O'Duffy to fight for Franco. Also the Labour party MP Harry Midgley lost his seat in Belfast after he came out against Franco and his catholic voters abandoned him. During the 1938 election campaign his presence in catholic areas sparked riots by Franco supporters shouting "Up Franco" and "Remember Spain".

  58. Grouch

    General Franco was widely supported in Catholic Ireland because of the lurid stories spread by the Church and its lay organisations about the killings of priests and nuns by "Communists" in truth by anarchists operating withot the support of the legitimate Republican govermment in Spain. No mention of course of priests being killed in the Basque county by Francoist to say nothing of the bombing of civilians by Franco and General Mola and the massacres committed by Francoists in every town and village they seized.

    I support a woman's right to choose abortion on the basis that the dependence by the foetus for sustenance means that she is in the best position to decide. it is not for the state to make that choice for her; either to coerce her into an abortion or to make her give birth to a potentially unwanted child.

    I emphatically do not support abortion programmes (where they exist) to remove Down's Syndrome and other disabilities from teh population and gene pool. My support fpor right to choose is based on my belief that it is absurd to grant full personhood status and citizenship rights to a biological entity that cannot exercise the functions and agency associated with both; to do so is to negate the autonomy and health interest of the pregnant woman. You cannot ascribe properties such "Irish academic atheist" to an entity that has yet to comde into being.

    But I do respect the rights of people to hold opposite views to me and their right to exercise conscientious objection in relation to the carrying out of abortions or in relation to abortion legislation.

  59. lads, yous have a bee in ur bonnet about franco - whatever. some of you love portraying irish catholics as crypto-fascists and quasi-genocidalists when the world and his mother knows what happened the catholic gaels here and who and what religion carried it out. but im not bovered bout franco right now. im just surprised ye havent brought up de valeras offer of condolence for adolph.

    "I support a woman's right to choose abortion on the basis that the dependence by the foetus for sustenance means that she is in the best position to decide."

    so is that why u support a mothers right to have an abortion - because the child depends on her for sustenance. sustenance you say. u are so right there. the child does indeed depend on the mother for sustenance. abortion being the absolute opposite of sustenance. we're back to the language of choice and decisions and rights for the brutal mutilation and death of a baby.

    this is a very strange phrase - "potentially unwanted child". so when a child is 'potentially unwanted' as you say - we go to the extremely destructive and fatal procedure of abortion. have you no other suggestions as to how we might help the mother and this potentially happy loving young irish child?

    "I emphatically do not support abortion programmes (where they exist) to remove Down's Syndrome and other disabilities from teh population and gene pool."
    - sorry barry, you do if u support the repeal of the 8th ammendment. 90% of downes syndromes babies are aborted in england and i believe denmark is looking for the full 100%(evil beyond belief). and its going to be different here is it you think? yeah right. there is a downes syndrome theatre group here in galway. will there be one when ur an old man barry? ask anyone who works with people affected by downes - they will all tell u that they have unbelievable spirit and playfulness and lots are well smart. the 8th is their protection.

    "it is absurd to grant full personhood status and citizenship rights to a biological entity that cannot exercise the functions and agency associated with both"

    dont tell that to any pro-euthanasia campaigners doctor gilheany, u mite give them notions.

    by the way, this is also an argument for killing new born babes and even toddlers dr gilheany, which is advocated by two oxbridge professors in ethics - believe it or not. (ur arguments are getting increasingly scarier btw - but you are not going off the pro-abortion script which is founded on denying that the baby is a living being.

    " You cannot ascribe properties such "Irish academic atheist" to an entity that has yet to come into being. "

    that is not what i wrote, read it again please. also, id imagine you are in a tiny minority of people if you believe that 'entity' as you call it, has not come into being already by virtue of the fact of it being an 'entity'.

    "But I do respect the rights of people to hold opposite views to me and their right to exercise conscientious objection in relation to the carrying out of abortions or in relation to abortion legislation."

    gee thanks.

    nice photo for ye (this is NOT a disturbing image but a beautiful one)

    finally, all the talk about rights/choices/trust/decisions etc etc etc. - this is exactly the language the abortion INDUSTRY and spare parts INDUSTRY (multi billion industries i might add) loves and promotes. if u think its ok to abort a baby, then presumably u have no problem with that baby being butchered and its organs and tissues sold on for profit to be experimented on by corporations for further profit and indeed used in 'products'. i mean if u dont regard it as human surely it dusnt matter. fair enuf folks - this could be happening here if u decide the little child in the above poster was not human the day before in the referendum this may.

  60. and just think of this - saving the 8th and giving a giant two fingers to the global abortion industry and the george soroses of this world will be a great boost for people in other countries opposed to the genocide of children deemed 'handicapped' and for people opposed to the spare parts industry. ireland is a tiny country but we can punch above our weight this may, just like we did 100 years ago.

  61. Grouch

    Just to recap, it is my belief that abortion should be free, legal, safe and rare. How is it it be be rare? Compulsory sex and relationship education which addresses emotions and gender equality as opposed to the mere biological mechanics of sex. Access to free and safe contraceptions; full finding of non-judgmmental pregnancy counselling services and young peoiple's mental and emotional health services. Universal childcare and childbirth to be as safe for the woman as it is possible to be and good social support and mutrition for women where abortion is free in the first trimester of pregnancy when the foetus does not feel pain and has not developed a central nervous system. It is the woman';s choice to make, not that of states and doctords with pronatas;list or eugenic objectives.

    I am totally oposed to abortion on ex-selection grounds (as in many parts of India) or coercive birth control strategies such as China's former onechild po0licy.

    Abortion regimes are often functions of society's wider gender order and ideological construction. It is in no coincidecne that in most totalitarian states like Nazi Germany and Stalinist USSR, elective abortion was not permitted. Abortion law and practice is a signifoier for a wider gender order in which women were socially constructed as wives and mothers not as autonomous adults with the xsame citizenship, in which "Fallen women" and their children were treated as wards of the state detained and abused on an industrial in a carceral archip0leqago of "care2 and custodial institutions run by the Catholic Church which in its participation in and cover of of perpetrators of child and sex abusers acted as criminal enterprise rom 1850 to the publication of the Ryan Report in 2009. In this order sexual minorities like LGTB people growing up in a society where there was essentyially only won sin, sex, and only one sinner, women. HNpefully, Grouch you do hjave some appreciation of why those of us raised ihnj anti-choice culture tend to bne ratehr enthusiastic about abortio law reform.

    I note Dr McCloskey talks abortion being about the destruction of "our children". Sorry bu tin the opinions of virftually all international human rights agencies the foetus is not a child and cannot be the bearer of a right to life which trumps the woman's rights in her pregnancy journey. The foetus is just that . It is highly inappropriate to usxe the third person plural when talking about the unborn or to appropriate is as a national, communal or tribal resource. Therein lies a from of fascism.

    Also I have no brief for Sinn Fein but it is my understanding that they are opposed to the extension of the 1967 Abortion Act to NI. Mind you, they do what Garry and the Army Council tells them what to do.

    As i have said before, I respect the right of people to hold pro-life views and to live their persocnal lives by it. i would have even respect if this revrecne to life is extnded to oppouch, yu hasve sill not aid who in your opinion the perpetrator of the rime in abortion is: the doctor , provider of woman.Who goes to jail then?

    The removal of the Eight Amendment from the Irish Constitution will be a milestone on the Journey of the Republic of Ireland towards a full independent liberal democracy freed rom the bonds of patriarchal culture. For the Eight Amendment was less an assertion of Irish va;lues than the US Moral Majority colonising Ireland, using it as laboratory for the overturning of Roe vs Wade. To voters in the forthcoming referendum, i say "Stand by the Republic".

  62. "in the first trimester of pregnancy when the foetus does not feel pain and has not developed a central nervous system. " - false, complete and utter rubbish doctor gilheany.

    " Grouch you do hjave some appreciation of why those of us raised ihnj anti-choice culture tend to bne ratehr enthusiastic about abortio law reform."

    what on earth is an anti-choice culture - i was raised in the same culture as you - nobody went around saying - gee this anti-choice culture sucks. and how on earth can anyone be 'enthusiastic' about law reform. just say what you mean - you want abortion on demand here because thats what repeal the 8th means and stop pretending you get a hard-on over something like laws.

    " Sorry bu tin the opinions of virftually all international human rights agencies the foetus is not a child and cannot be the bearer of a right to life which trumps the woman's rights in her pregnancy journey."

    do you mean psuedo humanitarian rights agencies like the evil george soros's favorite - amnesty international. all these pseudo humanitarian groups have been hijacked and are ABSOLUTE RACKETS. the foetus is not a child you say, tell that to my little friend in the poster in my previous comment.

    "It is highly inappropriate to usxe the third person plural when talking about the unborn or to appropriate is as a national, communal or tribal resource. Therein lies a from of fascism."

    it is highly inappropriate to use the third person plural you say when referring to the child but its okay to kill it. as i said yesterday, ur arguments are truly scary.
    and u say we're the fascists doctor gilheany - and i suppose the abortion and spare parts industrialists are democratic honest gentlemen. as are the marie stopes group who push their staff to encourage women to abort perfectly healthy children. personally id rather be a fascist than one of them anyday.

    "Who goes to jail then?"
    no-one, but the baby goes in an abortion bucket after it is mutilated and killed or is further butchered and dissected in a laboratory.

    "The removal of the Eight Amendment from the Irish Constitution will be a milestone on the Journey of the Republic of Ireland towards a full independent liberal democracy freed rom the bonds of patriarchal culture. For the Eight Amendment was less an assertion of Irish va;lues than the US Moral Majority colonising Ireland, using it as laboratory for the overturning of Roe vs Wade. To voters in the forthcoming referendum, i say "Stand by the Republic"."

    Roe vs Wade you say. heres the 'roe' in roe vs wade for you doctor gilheany - in her own words - two videos less than one minute long. listen to what she says about what her feminist lawyers told her to say.

  63. was sorta reading through the comments - forgive me posters if I haven't waded through all - but i was struck by this sentence Anthony wrote

    "In a society where there is such fundamental disagreement on the matter who is to decide?"

    Apart from the abortion issue - this is a key point.

    Anyone may disagree on any point of legislation for any issue - surely we have to allow space for the individual to make his/her own decision.

    Let's take a couple of extreme situations - suppose there are only 1 or 10 or 100 practitioners of a certain religion in ireland. Do they have the right to have a place of worship, to practice their beliefs?

    And what if there are only 1 or 10 or 100 LGBT? Do they have the right to marry? cross-dress? whatever makes them happy etc?

    if we agree that they do, then equally speaking 1 or 10 or 100 women have the right to opt for abortion.

  64. Grouch

    Anti-choice culture is one which represses sexual expression, discussion and claims of right that do not adhere to a hererosexual norm in in which the two-parent family with children is the ideal and gay people, single mothers, single men and women, people having sex outside of marriage and the "fallen women2 are stigmatised and crminalised and in which young people are denied fuill sex education and information rights. That's what i grew up with in NI and many like mne and it affect us. Things ae moving on both sides of the border; let this year be the final victory of feminism.

    No UN, European, African and Latin American human rights committee recognises the right to life of the unborn although they give latitude to the legislatures of individual states to decide abortion policy.

  65. "the final victory of feminism" - the destruction of innocent children - some victory.

    oh poor u u poor victim growing up in an anti choice culture boo hoo, my heart goes out to you and all the other trannies who were so terribly held back and still bear the scars of being so brutalised by such tyranny. i just cant understand why people so harmed by all this injustice cant have empathy with a little baby.

  66. Grouch

    What about the babies snatched from the arms of the "fallen women' internees of the Magdalen Laundries and expored to good rich Catholic families in the USA?

    What about the daily beatings and humiliations inflicted on the\se women for having committed Ireland' only sin in these institutions and for giving bith ou tof wedlock (No punishment for the men though)

    What about the untold tens of thousands of children abused by that criminal enterprise the Holy Roam Catholic Church of Ireland inj collusion with the state for most of the 20th century. Read the Ryna Report if you are not convinced.

    I went to a reaqltivley liberal CBS scholl fo rit stimer but here's the exception that proves the rule: my Frfench teacdher could not come out as gay until his early retirement. At the same time a predatoryu Brother was touching up untold numbers of boys in the showers.

    this is the sort of Ireland that the Pro-Life Amendment Campaign sought to recreate in the early 1980s. Their strategy is finally facing total defeat. Bring it on!

  67. Barry,

    are you going to write a piece on this topic?

  68. barry, whats all that got to do with babies? is mass abortion some kind of cure for ur rage at hierarchy?

  69. I most certainly am, Anthony.


    Pro-life lobbies in Ireland and elwhere than to be against contraception, gay rights, sex education, gender eqwualiuty and sex outside marriage (except between clerics and young boys)

  70. uve issues with the church barry, who hasnt, get over urself.

  71. Grouch

    And are the survivors of Brendan Smyth, the Magdalen Laundries, Letttefrack and Nazerath house supposed to "get over it"?


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