tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post8101976434235919835..comments2024-03-29T13:37:11.174+00:00Comments on TPQ: Killing By Numbers ➤ Part 4 AMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-58188657104921732512020-04-12T21:27:46.622+01:002020-04-12T21:27:46.622+01:00SP - I agree, he attaches no particular to human l...SP - I agree, he attaches no particular to human life. <br /><br />My experience suggests there was no serious attempt to keep sectarian people out of the IRA. They may have put a muffler on the more overt sectarian utterances. Their volunteers from the interface areas seemed to be more sectarian than most. One of the chants that used to ring through the Crum in 1976 was "Up The Sectarian AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-23524027853593434912020-04-12T20:25:58.074+01:002020-04-12T20:25:58.074+01:00@ AM - I am sceptical about whether Adams did say ...@ AM - I am sceptical about whether Adams did say it, and if he did, whether he actually believed it. I believe that Adams is anti-sectarian, but I also believes that he does not see human life as particularly valuable - I was trying to make that point, albeit not very well.<br /><br />I could be way off here, but I've always felt that the IRA's drive to keep overtly sectarian people outSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139216046914389013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-25849945111404654232020-04-12T17:27:53.482+01:002020-04-12T17:27:53.482+01:00SP - Adams is quoted by Des O'Hagan. No one el...SP - Adams is quoted by Des O'Hagan. No one else can authenticate it. No one else has said Adams ever expressed sentiments remotely like it. Much of the internal discussion in the mid 70s was about the sectarianism of the IRA in the 74-76 period and Adams was very critical of it as he had been when the Orr Brothers were killed by the IRA in North Belfast in 72. O'Hagan would not be in my AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-9629874429084234022020-04-12T17:16:18.453+01:002020-04-12T17:16:18.453+01:00@ Peter.
The paper is called "Beyond Horror:...@ Peter.<br /><br />The paper is called "Beyond Horror: Terrorist Atrocity and the Search for Understanding The Case of the Shankill Bombing"<br /><br />I very much recommend it.<br /><br />I don't believe that the Shankill bomb attack was sectarian. But I have no problem deeming other actions by PIRA as viscerally sectarian. <br /><br />@ AM I remember the Falls Baths bombing - SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139216046914389013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-58312978726798559262020-04-12T10:21:11.133+01:002020-04-12T10:21:11.133+01:00SP
Your link has expired.
You think I am not inter...SP<br />Your link has expired.<br />You think I am not interested in nuance? You are the one who said that Ardoyne PIRA's Shankill slaughter was not sectarian and that the damage was minimal. Wrong on both counts. Maybe you are looking too hard for nuance.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-16748328923632055092020-04-11T21:15:05.553+01:002020-04-11T21:15:05.553+01:00SP - the IRA did carry out operations in nationali...SP - the IRA did carry out operations in nationalist areas and at times take risks with nationalist lives. One of their bombs in the 80s killed two civilians in West Belfast (think one was a member of the Worker's Party). My own view is that a lot more hard thinking would have gone into planting a bomb in West Belfast in circumstances identical to the Shankill. The fact that there was no SF AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-21218281773590481842020-04-11T19:52:19.415+01:002020-04-11T19:52:19.415+01:00SP
The IRA bombed an off-license close to my home...SP<br /><br />The IRA bombed an off-license close to my home at the corner of Islandbawn Street on the Falls Road -and they probably did others -for allegedly selling drink to kids. Economic targets were for the most part in no-mans-land and they did not generally bomb buisnesses along the Shankill any more than they did on the Falls -buisnesses bomb on either road were generally collateral to Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-56595842007676662992020-04-11T18:52:25.645+01:002020-04-11T18:52:25.645+01:00@ Peter
I think, unfortunately, that nuance isn&#...@ Peter<br /><br />I think, unfortunately, that nuance isn't something that you're interested in. If you are interested in deepening your knowledge of this event, this is a fascinating paper: https://tinyurl.com/rxu9m9t<br /><br />@AM - I think that whilst the overall economic bombing strategy wasn't overtly sectarian in intent, it probably was in practical application in many casesSPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139216046914389013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-44773245939782798642020-04-11T13:47:46.425+01:002020-04-11T13:47:46.425+01:00Peter - Enniskillen was of a different category. T...Peter - Enniskillen was of a different category. There was absolutely no intent there to do anything other than kill the people attending. While there was considerable anger in the jail about it, senior people later told me they clapped on the outside when it happened because they regarded it as payback for the cop attacks on IRA funerals. AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-66486930658258011182020-04-11T13:44:57.405+01:002020-04-11T13:44:57.405+01:00SP - that's right. Republicans did at times en...SP - that's right. Republicans did at times engage in sectarian targeting. I have long expressed the view that Kingsmill was a war crime. I don't regard the commercial bombing campaign as sectarian in intent - they demolished Derry and the Nationalist businesses there to boot. Somebody once commented that Belfast city centre was owned by unionists so bombing it was always going to face AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-86193859780105083022020-04-11T13:16:50.416+01:002020-04-11T13:16:50.416+01:00All of this series is designed to prove the legiti...All of this series is designed to prove the legitimacy of the paramilitary activity of the loyalist groups, i.e. there was a threat to the 'protestant community' from the IRA. It fails miserably because no such threat existed. <br />After the 1956-62 campaign, the IRA really had gone away but this fact didn't suit Paisley, who needed a bogeyman, especially since the official Unionist Mike Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01660761750411785160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-7157613233845810912020-04-11T13:14:29.448+01:002020-04-11T13:14:29.448+01:00SP
Just the shop? Have a look on google at images ...SP<br />Just the shop? Have a look on google at images from the day and look at the debris on the road. If you bring a short fuse IED onto a busy road then you are going to have innocent casualties. That was penciled into the equation just like Enniskillen. Primary target hit and a few innocent prods to boot, job done. There is no difference between the Shankill UFF and the Ardoyne PIRA both Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-55144943423301120402020-04-11T09:18:42.876+01:002020-04-11T09:18:42.876+01:00@Peter
Those "two cunt" didn't have...@Peter<br /><br />Those "two cunt" didn't have to clear the whole street: just the shop. The RUC reported that fruit was still on shelves in shops beside Frizzell's.<br /><br />If you are actually interested in debate, I can point you to a fascinating study of the Shankill bombing, but I suspect you're quite rigidly attached to your stance, which is your right to do so.<br SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139216046914389013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-45335160042654372662020-04-10T20:59:23.242+01:002020-04-10T20:59:23.242+01:00SP
" I don't believe there was sectarian...SP<br /><br />" I don't believe there was sectarian intent behind it - arguably, it had an anti-sectarian motive"<br /><br />Utter shite. You cannot take a large bomb into a busy shopping street and not have civilian casualties. Were those two cunts going to clear the whole street? I've no qualms about their primary target but they knew innocent blood would be spilled. It was Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-10736702825105586922020-04-10T15:16:35.251+01:002020-04-10T15:16:35.251+01:00@ AM
"I view the loyalist strategy of target...@ AM<br /><br />"I view the loyalist strategy of targeting a civilian population as a war crime although not the loyalists on the ground who did the deed as war criminals - exceptions being the Butchers and such like. It is not a tension free distinction."<br /><br />Describing the discussion around this as not being "tension free" is probably the best way I can think of to SPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15139216046914389013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-9284886208491760892020-04-09T13:39:02.712+01:002020-04-09T13:39:02.712+01:00I have already rubbished the credibility and motiv...I have already rubbished the credibility and motives behind this drivel so wont rehash it suffice to say the authors are 'confused with numbers'.<br /><br /><br />This propaganda installment changes tact a little, which was expected, and now they are onto Loyalism they provide a nostalgic retelling of the origins of the glorious UVF up to present day -while we already knew with what foot Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-9267430692243557582020-04-09T09:36:42.190+01:002020-04-09T09:36:42.190+01:00Menace - I know both of those men - Plum is now de...Menace - I know both of those men - Plum is now dead but I did a few conference events with him and Billy. I view the loyalist strategy of targeting a civilian population as a war crime although not the loyalists on the ground who did the deed as war criminals - exceptions being the Butchers and such like. It is not a tension free distinction. AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-89469697440478991142020-04-09T09:28:41.067+01:002020-04-09T09:28:41.067+01:00In reality, and I was twice targeted by loyalist p...In reality, and I was twice targeted by loyalist paramilitaries, all 'fenians' were legitimate targets for the various loyalist groupings. Strangely I know Plum Smith and Billy Hutch, and worked with them both however the fact is the U.V.F. had a feeling the Protestant people were under extreme threat from the indigenous population and fought to defend their assumed right to be here, I menacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15688888726966925636noreply@blogger.com