tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post5063317474268572305..comments2024-03-28T17:44:07.653+00:00Comments on TPQ: No Beret Or Gloves On Top Of The CoffinAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-21739378789042936572017-04-05T21:00:19.157+01:002017-04-05T21:00:19.157+01:00Mick,
Irish republicans have consistently failed ...Mick,<br /><br />Irish republicans have consistently failed to address the very real and almost impenetrable challenge underpinning Connolly's diktat. The Provos followed the same pattern that befell all previous manifestations of Irish Republicanism. They lied and compromised and are now constitutional nationalists. <br /><br />Change may come but it will be far from anything like the Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-88923896686678636142017-04-05T11:38:28.939+01:002017-04-05T11:38:28.939+01:00Michael
Thanks for replying, As you probably know...Michael<br /><br />Thanks for replying, As you probably know Connolly said on the eve of the 1916 rising, not a shot must be fired in the north. He new the north better than most of the leaders having been a trade union organiser there. But by 69 and even more so 1971, young Catholics were so fed up, having seen how the system in the north had treated their parents generation, they were not Organized Rage.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07627288401631451362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-74650109307634969932017-04-04T18:31:16.133+01:002017-04-04T18:31:16.133+01:00HenryJoY & Organized Rage
Thanks for your inp...HenryJoY & Organized Rage<br /><br />Thanks for your input on the complex set of motivators that compelled young men and women to join republican paramilitary groups. I got my first education on this topic in the early 90s when a good friend who lived on Broadway in west Belfast sat around a kitchen table with me many nights until the sun came up at 4:30 or so -- Belfast summers are somethingMichael Mahoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016015701619473456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-56304178030508916382017-04-04T16:43:40.004+01:002017-04-04T16:43:40.004+01:00AM, so because of the structure and processes of t...AM, so because of the structure and processes of the Republican movement at the time, it would of rendered any Republican objectives unobtainable? This seems a reasonable assumption. This voids my problem with future knowledge being needed, we can make predictions of dynamics in the future based on present conditions. If this was your point all along, im sorry I laboured it.DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-83825054190144734972017-04-04T10:33:50.360+01:002017-04-04T10:33:50.360+01:00Michael Mahoney, Anger and revenge and a life as a...Michael Mahoney, Anger and revenge and a life as a second class citizens were all powerful reasons for young men and women to join the IRA, people reach for the nearest vehicle which might bring them some respite from injustice and oppression, in the north in the early 1970s it was the provisionals in England recently it was Brexit. It doesn't exclude the said vehicle from being a crock of Organized Rage.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07627288401631451362noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-42427700548920162202017-04-04T09:27:39.730+01:002017-04-04T09:27:39.730+01:00Daithi D ,do you remember the No Return To Stormon...Daithi D ,do you remember the No Return To Stormont posters?I,m sure you do a chara do you think Adams/McG must have had an inner smirk at those , sending kids with no experience to England to blow themselves to bits while Martybroy drew up the surrender letter,yet with all their treachery the most damming indictment of their leadership must be that they lied and continued to lie to the movement martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-18886497008092216402017-04-04T09:16:53.093+01:002017-04-04T09:16:53.093+01:00Michael Mahoney,
I'd doubt if the lure of adv...<br />Michael Mahoney,<br /><br />I'd doubt if the lure of adventure was the initial motivator for a majority when 'volunteering'. Humans are hardwired to respond to challenges in the environment as such challenges present. They are primed for agency and control. When functioning at their optimum the tendency will be towards overcoming those challenges rather than subservience to Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-75662193859559823582017-04-04T08:53:08.156+01:002017-04-04T08:53:08.156+01:00DaithiD,
I think you miss the point about process...DaithiD,<br /><br />I think you miss the point about process justifying outcome. <br /><br />There was always an assessment of risk/reward. We knew exactly what we wanted in terms of partition, and as importantly what we did not want. And we did not want what we got. Why do you think they kept lying to us about where it was going when we raised these questions? Everything they did they are on AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-45306660179239287542017-04-04T05:31:53.513+01:002017-04-04T05:31:53.513+01:00...We can safely say with benefit of hindsight, no...<i>...We can safely say with benefit of hindsight, not foresight, that it would have been much better had the war not been extended beyond 74...</i><br /><br />Yes, i think we are getting there. Excellent!....<br /><br /><i>...Even if we reverse the consequentialist perspective and opt for the liberal one of process legitimising outcome, what we got in the North was hardly justified by the war...DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-74103038777822200192017-04-03T21:47:14.589+01:002017-04-03T21:47:14.589+01:00The only time I ever attended Bodenstown was in 92...The only time I ever attended Bodenstown was in 92 and I came away disgusted and numb by that surrender speech. I was never there before and was never there since. Nor will I be. I saw Adams and Gibney eating ice cream before the parade started. I didn't get a good feeling about the two of them then either at the time. larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-5573714453019824142017-04-03T21:31:26.168+01:002017-04-03T21:31:26.168+01:00DaithiD,
I think you are right about what Gibney ...DaithiD,<br /><br />I think you are right about what Gibney said. That thing about Adams saying it was written down hastily in a car jolts my memory. Some of us in the jail could see what was happening but per usual they lied about it. <br /><br />The leadership was moving towards an internal solution from the 80s. It was certainly considering an alternative to armed struggle by 82. One reason AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-24140176295933715282017-04-03T19:46:26.847+01:002017-04-03T19:46:26.847+01:00You may slag of the "rusty guns" till th...You may slag of the "rusty guns" till the cows come home but look at that pic of big Joe Mc Cann that's a M1 carbine Joe,s holding ,in those days the ra had some armalites and stolen slr,s alongside other older weapons the good stuff from Libya was years of, and today all buried in concrete ,well most of it, the sticks and loyalists still retain their weapons ,,,martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-81599189089092228252017-04-03T18:18:59.068+01:002017-04-03T18:18:59.068+01:00Anthony
Yes, I can see your point about "leg...Anthony<br /><br />Yes, I can see your point about "legitimising state behaviour" (that's "legitimizing state behavior" to me, lol) by discounting political motivation. If I remember correctly, Richard English included the "excitement" motivation in a longer discussion of why young people in nationalist enclaves joined the republican movement. I've had Michael Mahoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016015701619473456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-89614970756416582862017-04-03T18:04:04.814+01:002017-04-03T18:04:04.814+01:00ps Michael,I experienced the troubles vicariously ...ps Michael,I experienced the troubles vicariously , so in terms of motivations of young people joining I would only guess. There is more literature today on Republicanism than then, and looking at the average age of those prosecuted for IRA offences, Im guessing not all were autodidacts driven by ideology. I doubt many understood the magnitude of what they giving up, adult brains dont stop DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-48432171319098130152017-04-03T18:03:35.328+01:002017-04-03T18:03:35.328+01:00The British State did not face down unionists unti...The British State did not face down unionists until 1985.<br />Therefore peace was impossible until that happened.<br />11 years after Sunnngdale.1974<br />That fact alone renders the Sunningdale argument suspect.<br />MMG only admitted to being in the IRA because there was his "proud" remark in the Dublin Court.<br />He ran for president.<br />Study Brian lenhinan and his "mature Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-17094696386770620962017-04-03T17:32:55.307+01:002017-04-03T17:32:55.307+01:00Michael,
I think Peter Hart said the same of the ...Michael,<br /><br />I think Peter Hart said the same of the Cork volunteers and Richard did likewise in his work on O'Malley. If we take it as given that young men will fight wars, the more important question is what made the war they chose to fight? The need to avoid boredom is a universal trait not peculiarly Irish. <br /><br />I think when unionist writers make that argument the onus is onAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-38753948600102475052017-04-03T17:14:50.101+01:002017-04-03T17:14:50.101+01:00Michael, in terms of the Sticks ceasefire, I belie...Michael, in terms of the Sticks ceasefire, I believe they thought guerilla fishing to be more productive than guerilla war.DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-26662215278965465932017-04-03T17:00:15.011+01:002017-04-03T17:00:15.011+01:00The Republican movement turned its back on O Braid...The Republican movement turned its back on O Braidigh even though he and his close followers never strayed from core Republican ideals indeed he suffered from attempting to negotiate a withdrawal which they believed at the time that at least some of the British negotiatiors faithfully could deliver.<br /><br />How many of you followed Adams and Mcguinness instead . I think it's wrong to Patrick Mooneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01912745948523790308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-28624412014126999912017-04-03T14:40:48.858+01:002017-04-03T14:40:48.858+01:00AM & DaithiD
How much credence would you give...AM & DaithiD<br /><br />How much credence would you give to the contention that many young people in republican strongholds in Belfast, Derry and beyond joined the PIRA or INLA out of a need to escape boredom and a bleak, numbing future? Among others, Richard English makes this point in his book Armed Struggle: A History of the IRA. According to this theory, the lure of "adventure" Michael Mahoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08016015701619473456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-89077891474116966252017-04-03T13:14:20.183+01:002017-04-03T13:14:20.183+01:00AM, Im not at home and cannot say exactly without ...AM, Im not at home and cannot say exactly without my books, but from memory the key line in the Gibeny speech was about reversing the previously thought sequence of Brits leaving before any talks could begin, this was the first public airing of the idea and it caused problems with the IRA (or so we are told). Adams assured them that bit of the speech was written in the car on the way and was a DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-22384633530797750342017-04-03T12:23:57.177+01:002017-04-03T12:23:57.177+01:00DaithiD,
they pretended to the very end of the wa...DaithiD,<br /><br />they pretended to the very end of the war that they were seeking a united Ireland. Can you name one volunteer who died thinking they were risking their lives for a reformed NI? And that includes the two who died as late as 1996 in England. <br /><br />Gibney delivered the Bodenstown speech in 92 about not being able to hear each other over the sound of gunfire. That signified AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-79323042340850097512017-04-03T12:13:34.355+01:002017-04-03T12:13:34.355+01:00Well we know Adams terms of surrender were deliver...Well we know Adams terms of surrender were delivered by Reid around the Lynagh funeral, that dates it 87 at the very latest. Others could argue that was the real reason for the abstention vote in 86 but that probably speculative.Was the change in aim implied by Jim Gibeny at Bodenstown as the first overt indication of change? I dont know the exact date this changed, but we do know it changed for DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-28413292455212822622017-04-03T11:42:49.188+01:002017-04-03T11:42:49.188+01:00DaithiD,
when did the goal shift?
Was it ever ...DaithiD,<br /><br />when did the goal shift? <br /><br /><br />Was it ever publicly stated during the war that it had shifted? <br /><br />It was always denied internally and they were challenged at different points on it. <br /><br />The years were a waste because they produced nothing that would justify a military campaign. That is a consequentialist argument but no less valid for that. AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-1051850398559299432017-04-03T10:07:07.090+01:002017-04-03T10:07:07.090+01:00AM, in broad terms, the minimum republican goal sh...AM, in broad terms, the minimum republican goal shifted from Brits out to Sunningdale II. Then intervening years would only be known to have been a waste in '74 if the Republican leadership knew the end scenario beforehand, I dont know what the contentious point is. For your criticism to be valid, it seems some future knowledge would be needed. Even an assumption that no Republican outcome DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-80547233383135173352017-04-03T09:05:18.256+01:002017-04-03T09:05:18.256+01:00DaithiD,
I read an improvement on Sunningdale as ...DaithiD,<br /><br />I read an improvement on Sunningdale as not being in the same category as an alternative to Sunningdale. <br /><br />What was the minimum republican goal? <br /><br />Nationalists largely did accept Sunningdale. It was their base line position. It was republicans who rejected it in the anti-unionist camp. <br /><br />AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.com