tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post415750970047509273..comments2024-03-28T13:35:30.500+00:00Comments on TPQ: They Came To Bury But Not To MournAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-62602702738200880122017-04-06T18:38:55.436+01:002017-04-06T18:38:55.436+01:00AM, I realise collaborator is a more loaded term ...AM, I realise collaborator is a more loaded term but surely it was used at least informally by Republicans with people during the conflict who persuaded people to give information to the police etc. It wouldn't necessarily have meant the person was targeted even with vandalism of property never mind violence. <br /><br />My point is that someone can only collaborate with the enemy and if Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-57866495518678472562017-04-06T11:29:48.801+01:002017-04-06T11:29:48.801+01:00Owen
If reasonable convictions were to come about...Owen<br /><br />If reasonable convictions were to come about because everything the British press have to say is true then alien's from outer space spotted in greater London in the 60's and 70's would still be in one cell along with the Birmingham 6, Guildford 4 and every other case the British press has ever whipped up euphoria about. Read it and weep is right -but not in the way Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07529990561635818286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-10476133143103735522017-04-06T09:09:08.819+01:002017-04-06T09:09:08.819+01:00Simon,
I think asset is a much less value loaded ...Simon,<br /><br />I think asset is a much less value loaded term than collaborator. <br /><br />The problem with any of these terms is that those who employ them, no matter how genuinely, end up sounding like those Tridentine Mass advocates who accuse those who say the mass in the vernacular of being traitors. Few pay any attention. And rather than make the accusation ring authentic it causes it AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-16265282567069732062017-04-06T08:50:36.450+01:002017-04-06T08:50:36.450+01:00Steve R
I heard it personally I was on the same w...Steve R<br /><br />I heard it personally I was on the same wing in the same block. I thought they were just desperate to get a release date, clutching at straws. They were in fact very well informed.larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-34183828828577114262017-04-06T08:27:57.229+01:002017-04-06T08:27:57.229+01:00Owen,
if the case you made seemed weak to me at ...Owen, <br /><br />if the case you made seemed weak to me at the start it seems more so now. The legalese employed in the discussion seems more like a mask to cover the gaps. His conciseness pitched against the prolix seems the more convincing. <br /><br />In my view your earlier observation that the attack on the Donnellys nailed McGuinness as an agent carried no weight. It proved nothing. Now weAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-82267956648378884232017-04-06T08:08:07.951+01:002017-04-06T08:08:07.951+01:00Owen, much as I'd love to argue that the total...Owen, much as I'd love to argue that the totality of your "evidence" wouldn't be enough for a prima facie case against McGuinness I don't think I will for three reasons.<br /><br />The first is that this is a circular argument that won't go anywhere. <br /><br />The second is that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. <br /><br />The third is that it Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-77043402318485880842017-04-06T06:40:37.876+01:002017-04-06T06:40:37.876+01:00As I say the Ingram evidence wouldn't be admis...<i>As I say the Ingram evidence wouldn't be admissible.</i><br /><br />Only if MI-6 or MI-5 told a British Judge it wasn’t. Otherwise, read it & weep: <br /><br />“Ingram, a former NCO in the army's highly controversial Force Research Unit, revealed the existence of 'Stakeknife', the British agent who was running the IRA's internal security unit. Freddie Scappaticci Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-50148903334374520762017-04-06T06:39:13.592+01:002017-04-06T06:39:13.592+01:00Are you, like the British, relying on confession o...<i>Are you, like the British, relying on confession only evidence?</i> <br /><br />None are so blind as those who will not see. <br /><br /><i>If you are it would relate to the beating and not to the charge of being an informer. There is nothing to corroborate it in any event.</i><br /><br />Not even when he openly swore in an Irish Court in the 1970’s that he was PIRA? Or when every dog on the Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-18825009476454721622017-04-06T06:35:25.498+01:002017-04-06T06:35:25.498+01:00If he did order a beating it still doesn't mea...<i>If he did order a beating it still doesn't mean he is an informer. The statement by the Domnelly family which you say includes a confession of guilt by McGuinness in relation to the beating may be admissible in a separate trial relating to the beating but is so far removed from the charge of being an informer it wouldn't be admissible.</i><br /><br />His extra judicial confession and Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-65717914954269866692017-04-06T06:34:07.973+01:002017-04-06T06:34:07.973+01:00Owen, well for a start even if we assumed Martin M...<i>Owen, well for a start even if we assumed Martin McGuinness was still alive and a trial was possible any evidence would have to show or demonstrate something. Your examples do not. All your individual incidents and examples are used collectively by you to prove McGuinness is a traitor. You assume the veracity of these examples when none of the examples individually have been proven.</i><br /><Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-15138508851989177622017-04-06T00:35:54.246+01:002017-04-06T00:35:54.246+01:00Daithi D
Worry not, I a have a good notion of the...Daithi D<br /><br />Worry not, I a have a good notion of the carry on at this stage. RC church child abusers, Provos mind abusers. lollarry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-38535854168915085452017-04-05T23:32:49.252+01:002017-04-05T23:32:49.252+01:00Marty/Peter,
Cheers,
Larry,
Where did you hear ...Marty/Peter,<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Larry,<br /><br />Where did you hear that?Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-13343143641916118162017-04-05T22:55:31.547+01:002017-04-05T22:55:31.547+01:00Marty, I think there is little to be made of the c...Marty, I think there is little to be made of the charge of informer as the word is traditionally known. <br /><br />There may be merit with the charge of asset but that depends on the definition and the scope thereof. <br /><br />If you take the word collaborator he may, amongst others, be termed this under the ideology of the Provisionals historically speaking. However, he took too many of his Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-33211372188930774442017-04-05T20:52:32.984+01:002017-04-05T20:52:32.984+01:00Peter
During your time in the UDR did you review ...Peter<br /><br />During your time in the UDR did you review all our files? lollarry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-1128980312655078382017-04-05T20:50:30.225+01:002017-04-05T20:50:30.225+01:00Simon we have discussed this many times over the...Simon we have discussed this many times over these last few years, you are as unwilling or unable to accept the fact that quisling $inn £eind have betrayed every single principle that this movement was founded upon yet you are willing to defend what increasingly looks like the undefendable, I yelled out reading books about united Irishmen meeting at the blacksmiths and the guy who always slid martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-1717694413843056802017-04-05T18:43:36.106+01:002017-04-05T18:43:36.106+01:00Larry, dont discard your electric hare comment to ...Larry, dont discard your electric hare comment to soon, it was a very funny addition to the hawk/dove classifications.DaithiDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03154264514142897745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-63368883103645436962017-04-05T14:54:32.054+01:002017-04-05T14:54:32.054+01:00Owen, well for a start even if we assumed Martin M...Owen, well for a start even if we assumed Martin McGuinness was still alive and a trial was possible any evidence would have to show or demonstrate something. Your examples do not.<br /><br /><br />All your individual incidents and examples are used collectively by you to prove McGuinness is a traitor. You assume the veracity of these examples when none of the examples individually have been Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15029656112153509987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-83261669032263010122017-04-05T13:14:35.665+01:002017-04-05T13:14:35.665+01:00Steve R
Do yourself a favour and get Maloney's...Steve R<br />Do yourself a favour and get Maloney's A Secret History of the IRA. It takes you through the machinations of the peace process from the republican perspective. It is unputdownable. I read it after reading Godson's bio of Trimble "Himself Alone" and you can see very clearly from these 2 books how tightly choreographed the whole peace process was from start to finish.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-31449761082409056502017-04-05T13:03:15.693+01:002017-04-05T13:03:15.693+01:00Steve R
The loyalists on the mixed-wings in the H...Steve R<br /><br />The loyalists on the mixed-wings in the H-Blocks were aware of talks about a cessation as early as 1988. One of the UDR 4 Noel Bell (who tragically lost a baby in a car accident at Lough Erne) was talking bout hawks and doves. Martin McGuinness was the hawk (a wee canary it turns out) and Gerry was the wee dove. Nationalists/RCs thought they were doing too much whacky-backy in larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-38193613753609589932017-04-05T10:20:07.359+01:002017-04-05T10:20:07.359+01:00Steve R I clearly recall the late Mickey Ferguso...Steve R I clearly recall the late Mickey Ferguson (whom I had long suspected as an agent,def an absentee landlord)calling to our home in 94 just after the signing of the GFA or as Anthony called it in his brill book Good Friday the death of Irish Republicanism, to discuss the current state of play so to speak ,he started to spout waffle( which we had been already told was doing the rounds) martyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09814904389826171437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-60885426235274351892017-04-05T06:55:27.179+01:002017-04-05T06:55:27.179+01:00Marty
I would go further and state that all those...Marty<br /><br />I would go further and state that all those attending his funeral and a large portion of those voting SF now are condoning McGuinness Donaldson etc and their agenda. The IRA was never anything but an idealist minority, an armed pressure group. The mass support for SF is effectively anti IRA pro agent/asset agenda. The 'Peace-Process' the designer attire it hides beneath.larry hugheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09837849309156970989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-50201596949162519992017-04-05T05:08:56.325+01:002017-04-05T05:08:56.325+01:00Marty/AM,
Before the ceasefire and the GFA was th...Marty/AM,<br /><br />Before the ceasefire and the GFA was there talk of halting the campaign coming internally from the top down among the Volunteers? Or were a lot of the 'rank and file' volunteers blindsided by this turn of events? Or how was the cessation dressed up internally? Please forgive my ignorance, but when we saw the huge convoy of cars with tricolours flying we assumed we Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-31975383920525078252017-04-05T01:03:28.453+01:002017-04-05T01:03:28.453+01:00AM: “McGuinness knew exactly where he was steering...<i>AM: “McGuinness knew exactly where he was steering republicanism. He deceived the rank and file every bit as much as Adams. He seemed to love the trappings of office. Yet, none of this can be read as him being an agent. The lot of it fits easily into the asset category.” 8:50 AM, April 03, 2017 </i><br /><br />Since he knew exactly where he was steering republicanism…<br /><br />And deceived Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-44323173687427659692017-04-05T00:52:21.137+01:002017-04-05T00:52:21.137+01:00I have't seen anything there that would be eit...<b>I have't seen anything there that would be either admissible or have any weight.</b> <br /><br />Simon, then you are not looking. <br /><br />Why wouldn’t the statements of the Donnelly family be admissible?<br /><br />Why wouldn’t the statements of various security insiders and others be admissible?<br /><br />Why wouldn’t MMG’s own statements and actions be admitted against him? <br /><Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-7547638569867066082017-04-05T00:49:16.554+01:002017-04-05T00:49:16.554+01:00Anthony,
But admissibility precedes weight.
You...Anthony,<br /><br />But admissibility precedes weight. <br /><br />You don’t get to the latter without the former. <br /><br />And the weight of evidence isn’t a factor for indictment. <br /><br />We can disagree about the weight of this evidence, many jurors do.<br /><br />But since the totality of the circumstances would allow for him being an asset, <br /><br />Then what we have is a Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15022464713471422860noreply@blogger.com