tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post3286362231369875562..comments2024-03-28T17:44:07.653+00:00Comments on TPQ: Criminalizing Speech (And Opposition) — An UpdateAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-47063310004717821712015-06-05T07:53:39.671+01:002015-06-05T07:53:39.671+01:00"We come up against a wall of resistance, ind...<i>"We come up against a wall of resistance, indifference, callousness even. The red tops might indeed create prejudice but they also tap into populist reservoirs that store it."</i><br /><br />You nailed it there AM.<br /><br />Whether you frame it in a freedom of speech context, UDHR, censorship, or as a selective enforcement issue Fennell's case is unlikely to gain much traction.Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-55979903154350316872015-06-04T23:04:16.183+01:002015-06-04T23:04:16.183+01:00Very interesting comments by all involved, Tirana ...Very interesting comments by all involved, Tirana is correct<br />in saying "dissident" republicanism would be better served<br />at this moment in time by a ceasefire.Any revolutionary <br />struggle is political first ,military second, we've failed on both <br />fronts I'm afaird. Am is right we hv a moral obligation<br />to the next generation of republicans.Im out of gaol <SeanSmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16147274912307569878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-33812890407704356592015-06-04T20:52:01.709+01:002015-06-04T20:52:01.709+01:00Tiarna,
leaders do carry a heavier burden of re...Tiarna, <br /><br /><br />leaders do carry a heavier burden of responsibility. Although I am not sure that the right to free speech or defence of the legitimacy of armed activity is what he ever intended taking the lead on. I regarded what he said as one of those Easter rhetorical flourishes rather than a recruiting drive. Certainly not something he should be jailed for any more than Jim Wells AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-84295213163369618152015-06-04T18:58:48.206+01:002015-06-04T18:58:48.206+01:00AM
I wouldn't disagree with you nor would I s...AM<br /><br />I wouldn't disagree with you nor would I say that nobody should take deals. But if you take on a leadership position of sorts then you carry a heavier burden to stand your ground a bit firmer. I don't think this particular issue is one better fought from the outside, if he was going to fight it at all then he should have stood his ground and have it out in court because Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04285159252818207266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-22277455835437928042015-06-04T18:28:56.901+01:002015-06-04T18:28:56.901+01:00Tiarna,
lots of republicans made compromises ove...Tiarna, <br /><br />lots of republicans made compromises over the years to get them out earlier - pleading guilty was the big one. I would not agree to the restriction. But then I couldn't given the stance I have taken. But my nose is not put out of joint by Dee opting for it. It is maybe an issue that is better fought on the outside. I think the focus is best placed not on him undertaking toAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-32118425509323354572015-06-04T18:25:02.563+01:002015-06-04T18:25:02.563+01:00Tiarna,
I am not so sure that is right.
In an ...Tiarna, <br /><br />I am not so sure that is right. <br /><br />In an earlier discussion of this around the time of Dee Fennell's arrest one of the unionists had a look at the legislation and commented on the blog that Kelly could be charged if the Brits decided to press it. As people can still be charged for pre 1998 activity I am far from convinced that if say Dee had have praised the AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-56766745251501336942015-06-04T18:16:32.971+01:002015-06-04T18:16:32.971+01:00PS: Nelson Mandella and scores of republicans coul...PS: Nelson Mandella and scores of republicans could have been released from prison earlier if they agreed to certain terms they choose not to because they believed in their struggle -Dee Fennel folded at the first bit of pressure. He can't do anything publically now because he agreed to those terms --had he not agreed to the terms he could repeat whatever he said whenever and as often as he Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04285159252818207266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-26020437658443090252015-06-04T18:08:55.154+01:002015-06-04T18:08:55.154+01:00"Find for me any evidence that speakers like ..."Find for me any evidence that speakers like Gerry Kelly, who praised the IRA and glorified the volunteers who waged armed struggle against the British state, were similarly charged. And again, even more troubling is the muzzle which he was forced to accept as a condition of release on bail."<br /><br />That is not the issue; anyone can say that they sympathized, supported or would haveChristy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04285159252818207266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-9017905252565278932015-06-04T16:10:22.374+01:002015-06-04T16:10:22.374+01:00Tiarna,
There were two parts of the speech that I...Tiarna,<br /><br />There were two parts of the speech that I believe were at issue, the part that you and I both quoted, and another (disputed) element in which he is said to have encouraged people to join the IRA. The first part I originally transcribed from the video of his speech while it was still posted on YouTube. I was able to confirm my transcription from subsequent media reports which PFTrumborehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549998962147570012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-37616202937466992092015-06-04T14:56:42.603+01:002015-06-04T14:56:42.603+01:00I hazard a guess and say that only this part of hi...I hazard a guess and say that only this part of his speech is what is at issue "armed struggle, in 2015, remains a legitimate act of resistance."<br /><br />This is nothing really to do with free speech but other fundamental human rights as under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which recognizes the legitimacy of armed resistance, I quote:<br /><br />"Whereas it is Christy Walshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04285159252818207266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-44733486621792716652015-06-04T14:26:43.607+01:002015-06-04T14:26:43.607+01:00Pete,
it is the manner in which the entire things...Pete,<br /><br />it is the manner in which the entire things seems driven by a partisan political agenda rather than a straightforward policing one (in as far as that ever exists) that would deal with matters of law breaches. Your point about the bail conditions is crucial. I don't believe it is overly academic, even academic, to take your stance. It has huge significance. At the same time, AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-78872418995549547112015-06-04T14:05:26.764+01:002015-06-04T14:05:26.764+01:00AM,
no tablets of stone, we're all muddling a...AM,<br /><br />no tablets of stone, we're all muddling along as best we can; living perfectly imperfect lives in an imperfectly perfect world. Some of us lucky enough to have the time, space, inclination and capacity to reflect on that process. Constructing and updating maps and models essential to the journey, very useful for effecting navigation through difficult or unfamiliar terrain in Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-17468837141095300012015-06-04T13:42:20.780+01:002015-06-04T13:42:20.780+01:00AM and HJ,
Let me add just a few points to the co...AM and HJ,<br /><br />Let me add just a few points to the conversation. First, I don't have a great deal of trouble with the charges brought against Fennell -- except for the incredibly selective manner in which those charges have been levied. If Fennell's comments at that commemoration were illegal, then everyone who made similar remarks at events across the North should have been PFTrumborehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13549998962147570012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-76293512343136488342015-06-04T12:30:01.537+01:002015-06-04T12:30:01.537+01:00HJ,
My experience is that most people turn a blin...HJ,<br /><br />My experience is that most people turn a blind eye to my observations whether they are right or wrong. But I think, and you seem to defend it, that if we feel something is unjustly inflicted by a majority (not just a minority) then it is reasonable to address it. But there is a point to what you say: very few of us, myself included, live life the way we talk it here. This merely AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-69460418833053431402015-06-04T11:00:42.290+01:002015-06-04T11:00:42.290+01:00Your point is well made AM.
Indeed selective use...Your point is well made AM. <br /><br />Indeed selective use of silencing techniques must not be overlooked and all incitements to and uses of violence must be challenged and teased out if we are to be consistent in our opposition to violent impositions for ideological control or change.<br /><br />Most citizens though, I'd contend, will view your's and Peter's stance as somewhat Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-86205430256152340672015-06-04T09:36:33.995+01:002015-06-04T09:36:33.995+01:00In an unrelated issue but which is thematically ap...In an unrelated issue but which is thematically appropriate for this thread we can see how in the digital age <a href="http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31138-you-can-be-prosecuted-for-clearing-your-browser-history" rel="nofollow"> law enforcement is seeking to increase its power and curb societal freedoms </a>AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-34802061898661953622015-06-04T09:06:08.367+01:002015-06-04T09:06:08.367+01:00Pete,
this frames the matter accurately. It is mo...Pete,<br /><br />this frames the matter accurately. It is more about state muzzling of dissenting thought than anything else. It is certainly not about stifling endorsements of IRAs per se as the other speakers on the day would have been arrested. Dee Fennell could have stood up and called for the British state to treat arrested republicans as detainees were treated in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo; AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-77440125954544762942015-06-04T00:29:45.209+01:002015-06-04T00:29:45.209+01:00Peter
viewed in a broader context the abandonment...Peter<br /><br />viewed in a broader context the abandonment of republican orthodoxy by Sinn Féin is nothing new. Considering the lessons of history its hardly surprising. Many of the leaders of the republican side who fought the civil war made the transition from revolutionary movement to defenders of the status quo too. Weighed against the behaviour of Fianna Fáil, who tried republicans in Henry JoYhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04161613445053833181noreply@blogger.com