tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post3774320644783991122..comments2024-03-29T11:31:52.337+00:00Comments on TPQ: James McClean And Armistice Day – A Personal PerspectiveAMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-68576895203754987562018-11-09T19:45:25.189+00:002018-11-09T19:45:25.189+00:00Am,
You're far from a snob. At the ris...Am,<br /> You're far from a snob. At the risk of sounding sycophantic, i find you thought provoking and genuine which means more to me than most. It's just self confidence issues on my side, that's my problem. When you were politely asked to leave school at 14 lol with no proper education then exchange views with people who have a better general inclination to debate, sometimesDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-33129889042335728512018-11-09T17:24:57.334+00:002018-11-09T17:24:57.334+00:00David - DaithiD was commenting the other day to Fr...David - DaithiD was commenting the other day to Frankie or somebody and it went right above my head. I hope I don't come over as a snob when I write in the way you describe. <br /><br />What you basically call for is parity. The way you frame its logic also means that if the men who fought for your people are not murderers then the uniformed killers are not either. I wonder if that symmetry AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-31974774683293802792018-11-09T15:52:34.584+00:002018-11-09T15:52:34.584+00:00Am,
What i mean is you have better ways of...Am,<br /> What i mean is you have better ways of explaining yourself. Sometimes you'll use words or reference something and i'll think what the fuck's he on about, that's life you're better educated it's no big deal. that's my point i haven't the eloquence to dicuss murder, war and morality to your extent. However i know what i believe and if the men who Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-56842803182138612942018-11-09T07:00:15.186+00:002018-11-09T07:00:15.186+00:00David,
I don't agree with that. It depends on...David,<br /><br />I don't agree with that. It depends on what the debate is about and there are subjects (not just stonemasonry) that you could tie me in knots around. You seem to hold your own pretty well from what I can see. <br /><br /><br />I don't think Barry is tying people in knots either nor does he seem determined to press the advantage when things go his way, he makes his point AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-66399750652808400162018-11-09T06:40:52.659+00:002018-11-09T06:40:52.659+00:00David - people exercise caution in what they say f...David - people exercise caution in what they say for a wide range of reasons: same as they lie. It might be to reduce friction in a social situation, cause nobody embarrassment, avoid awkwardness. I think the term self censorship is one that described a reluctance to speak for political reasons or out of fear of what is likely to happen in the event of speaking. It is something that while on the AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-7972789317618549452018-11-09T00:54:20.680+00:002018-11-09T00:54:20.680+00:00There are a couple of positives that can be taken ...There are a couple of positives that can be taken out of this controversy and indeed the ritual itself and we have to thank the likes of James McClean for his principled and sincere stand. What he has done is highlight issues around war and violence and indeed personal freedom. Could we not say that his stand is in the spirit of 'Remembrance'. Through it we might yet come to an Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14021607324687547216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-52672933621274326612018-11-08T23:43:57.100+00:002018-11-08T23:43:57.100+00:00Am ,
If freedom of speech is repressed by...Am ,<br /> If freedom of speech is repressed by pc and self censorship is that still oppression?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-80154321766385812652018-11-08T23:28:10.699+00:002018-11-08T23:28:10.699+00:00Steve, that's kind of my point. Rules exist f...Steve, that's kind of my point. Rules exist for things we find noble. Well the problem is they're are not rules if they apply morally but not in specific scenarios deemed immoralDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-23267741212972520652018-11-08T23:21:49.105+00:002018-11-08T23:21:49.105+00:00Am,
What i mean is am not an academic, am a...Am,<br /> What i mean is am not an academic, am a stonemason. In a debate scenario you would tie me in knots, as would Barry and yer man tain bo who used to post here. That's not a feel sorry fo me am stupid line am far from it. In the best way i can explain it is if my friends are murders for planting bombs in civilian areas so are they. Uniforms don't give csrte blanche to murder.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-64819167777012079232018-11-08T22:48:54.773+00:002018-11-08T22:48:54.773+00:00AM
From the wiki ..
"Murder is the unlawful...AM<br /><br />From the wiki ..<br /><br />"Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought."<br /><br />One could argue that Molyneaux's CO had justification, or valid excuse. From memory the two Nazi's were mocking a nearly dead inmate, displaying a callous Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-28842647574526932282018-11-08T21:18:27.036+00:002018-11-08T21:18:27.036+00:00Steve - it was murder. But this is where the god o...Steve - it was murder. But this is where the god of inconsistency dwells in the heart of many of us. Does it upset us? Not in the slightest. AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-4071039332227793442018-11-08T20:19:25.068+00:002018-11-08T20:19:25.068+00:00David,
"As i said before when we discussed t...David,<br /><br />"As i said before when we discussed the ihra definition. Definitions are corruptable. a Russian soldier walks into a concentration camp is engulfed with horror. Executes the camp commander in a pre meditated fashion. Murderer or outraged human?"<br /><br />That happened to the late UUP leader James Molyneaux, he was one of the first into Belsen. His commanding officer Steve Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670990166576346966noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-60387164582398942472018-11-08T18:40:05.167+00:002018-11-08T18:40:05.167+00:00David - your intellect seems alright to me.
The h...David - your intellect seems alright to me. <br />The human ego very much permits us to call murder by its name, murder.<br />What do we call the actions of Myra Hindley or Robert Black? Murder plain and simple. <br />Many people plead guilty to murder. <br />The human ego might lead us to think that we were not all that bad, that there were mitigating circumstances for our acts but they were AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-71693168665303380552018-11-08T17:53:22.745+00:002018-11-08T17:53:22.745+00:00Am,
People with your intellect play with wo...Am,<br /> People with your intellect play with words in a way am not capable of. I struggle to vocalise my thought process. The human ego won't allow us to call murder, murder. If i go out tonight, get in an altercation, beat a man unconscious and he dies, rightly am called a murderer. If a drone pilot takes out his target along with innocent civilians it's collateral damage and he&Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-19102063930942311442018-11-08T17:39:18.838+00:002018-11-08T17:39:18.838+00:00Barry,
My point wasn't that people...Barry,<br /> My point wasn't that people didn't benefit from intervention. My point was some didn't and shouldn't be coercedDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-29465910491659061962018-11-08T17:35:54.976+00:002018-11-08T17:35:54.976+00:00Barry,
As i said before when we discu...Barry,<br /> As i said before when we discussed the ihra definition. Definitions are corruptable. a Russian soldier walks into a concentration camp is engulfed with horror. Executes the camp commander in a pre meditated fashion. Murderer or outraged human?Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-82862596625535057482018-11-08T17:28:30.616+00:002018-11-08T17:28:30.616+00:00Peter,
Is it wise for kapernak? Does he...Peter,<br /> Is it wise for kapernak? Does he play the victim? Soldiers whole perogative in war is to kill and terrorise, society might excuse it, even glorify it, but, the deliberate act of killing, whatever you call it, the results are the same. My grandfather who i never knew, was a gunner in a tank in ww2. My father once asked him "did you ever kill civillians?" He repliedDavidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14120277877011965034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-19878147008474487692018-11-08T16:05:32.194+00:002018-11-08T16:05:32.194+00:00Peter if all the IRA can be called murderers it se...Peter if all the IRA can be called murderers it seems all soldiers on the opposite side can also be called the same. I prefer not to label either in such general terms. But as a polemic either way it has its merit, regardless of the factual, legal or ethical drawbacks.<br /><br />Pacifist is not a concept I can identify with but many of them have been extraordinary in their courage and oppositionAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-4354105419254885422018-11-08T13:31:19.886+00:002018-11-08T13:31:19.886+00:00AM
Corporate culpability, yes but to call ALL sold...AM<br />Corporate culpability, yes but to call ALL soldiers murderers is absurd. The language needs to be more accurate.<br /><br />Perhaps I should have said 'anti-war' and not 'pacifist'. Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-39602603805472326232018-11-08T13:15:58.807+00:002018-11-08T13:15:58.807+00:00Barry - but it just does not work out so smoothly....Barry - but it just does not work out so smoothly. As we can see from the North there is a battle over who defines what is lawful. All the investigations into British military actions have taken place after previous investigations rendered those killings lawful.<br /><br />I think unless it is war crimes the use of the word murder is too loaded. I think homicide is probably better. But it is openAMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-78591935400986594582018-11-08T13:12:22.456+00:002018-11-08T13:12:22.456+00:00Peter - it is less absurd than you think and proba...Peter - it is less absurd than you think and probably not as arguable as your detractors think. It poses the question of the degree of complicity individuals have in a corporate entity. I think that the loyalist campaign was a war crime but do not think the loyalists who carried it out on the ground are war criminals. Sometimes the war crime rests at the level of the strategic. A component part AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-35028419006466195822018-11-08T11:36:49.112+00:002018-11-08T11:36:49.112+00:00AM
I have no problem with him tweeting his love fo...AM<br />I have no problem with him tweeting his love for Machine Gun Marty or quoting Bobby Sands but considering the situation he finds himself in it is just throwing petrol on the fire. Quoting Ghandi may have been more pertinent.<br /><br />I have to disagree that all soldiers are murderers or accomplices to murder. Many units were not involved in any killing let alone contentious killings. ToPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-35217666560200648332018-11-08T09:41:39.045+00:002018-11-08T09:41:39.045+00:00David
"All soldiers are murderers or accompl... David<br /><br />"All soldiers are murderers or accomplices to murder"<br /><br />Is abortion murder and are the women undergoing abortions and medical staff involved murderers and pregnancy counsellors accomplices to murder?<br /><br />Is meat murder and are butchers and carnivores accomplices to murder.<br /><br />There are degrees or murder; that is the point I am trying to make. Barry Gilheanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14220262677398695734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-1249672396640348872018-11-08T09:33:45.250+00:002018-11-08T09:33:45.250+00:00Peter - Bobby Sands is venerated by a wide range o...Peter - Bobby Sands is venerated by a wide range of international and national opinion. You might disagree with his armed response to British state terrorism and there is much in the way of critique that can be thrown the IRA's way for having pursued a long war strategy that ended in unmitigated failure, but it is much more acceptable throughout Ireland to quote Bobby Sands than say Thatcher.AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00559413440743290550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807238897188927967.post-73058848778700733522018-11-08T07:36:57.498+00:002018-11-08T07:36:57.498+00:00David
All soldiers are murders or accomplices to ...David<br /><br />All soldiers are murders or accomplices to murder - no they are not.<br /><br />so by your logic if a British footballer playing in the Irish league tweeted support for British military history would he bring it on himself? - no, but if a loyalist playing for a team in Cork tweeted his admiration of Johnny Adair then he would be foolish.<br /><br />it's your democratic right Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15027470398152153427noreply@blogger.com