WBAI 99.5FM Pacific Radio
New York City
26 March 2016
(begins time stamp ~ 35:35)
Martin: On the line from Co. Tyrone we have Gerry
McGeough. Gerry, how are you doing?
Gerry: Martin, how are you? And a Happy Easter to
yourself and all our good friends over there in the United States including
Helen McClafferty and John and all the others who have been associated with the
Irish freedom struggle for so many years.
Martin: Gerry, I have to laugh: The other day I
checked Nuzhound – nNzhound is the place if you want to follow events in Ireland hit up Nuzhound
– they have the clippings every day of the important news stories dealing with
the North of Ireland. So I hit up Nuzhound and there was a story: Gerry McGeough Elected President of the Tyrone County AOH (Ancient
Order of Hibernians) and I hit it up and it was a great picture of you wearing
an Hibernian sash, smiling and it was a great story. Then I read the paper that
it was taken from, the Irish News, and the story was exactly the same,
the picture was exactly the same except the headline had become: Murder Bid Man
Elected AOH County President.
Gerry: Yeah. Well you know that was: Elected New AOH
Leader - so they had upped me considerably. But as you say, Martin, the story
itself was excellent. It was accurate. Connla Young, a very good journalist,
did an excellent job on it. Clearly what happened was some self-loathing
begrudger of a headlines editor decided to sensationalise the thing and of
course got it entirely wrong. But we've come to expect this from the Irish
News. It's not the paper that it used to be. It's not held in the great
esteem that it once was. It's become very tabloid-like both in format and content
over the years and a lot of fabrications frankly appear in it, a number which
have been written about me as well. Primarily people just ignore it. You know,
even around this area a lot of people don't even bother to buy it. So I suppose
in reality the modern Irish News has become part of the West
Brit/Stormont Establishment and like so many other outlets here and political
parties and it's very detached from what's really going on on the ground. They
called a lot of things wrong especially in the elections of last year because
they're really not in touch with what's happening.
And of course we've had some silly bloggers
saying that Nationalists and Republicans aren't voting anymore here in the Six
Counties because of apathy or one thing or another. That's utter nonsense. The
reason they're not voting is it's a form of passive resistance. People really,
if you raise your head here now, what happens to you is what happened to me in 2007 when I stood as an independent Republican candidate - you
get arrested and thrown into gaol or otherwise harassed. So people have to
resort to other means and part of it is not voting and I think you'll see that
continuing until such time as eligible candidates arise that people can vote
for – independent Republican candidates or the like – and in due course they
will come along but in the meantime you're going to see this passive-resistance
continuing. It's not apathy at all because Sinn Féin is the new Redmondite
Party. In 2007, back at the time that I'm referring to, they promised the sun,
the moon and the stars and they also promised a united Ireland by 2016. They've
virtually ignored and abandoned every principle ever they had and people are
becoming very, very disillusioned as a consequence. But like the Redmondites
they continue to get elected because there's no opposition going forward to
challenge them as there was let's say in 1918 in The South. If the Republicans
in 1918 hadn't stood in those elections then the Redmondites would have been
elected all across the thirty-two counties of Ireland albeit on a reduced
mandate and without any real legitimacy but because there was no alternative
they would have been elected and things would have been very much different
today. However, they were challenged and toppled as a consequence. And in due
course the Sinn Féin Redmondites will be challenged politically as well and
toppled also.
Martin: Gerry, I want to talk to you about two events
that just seem odd to me – I don't know how to explain them. (Sinn Féin MLA and
Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly) Mitchel McLaughlin has floated the idea that the British troops who were killed in 1916 that they should be
honoured as part of any commemoration. And more recently, there's wall murals
in West Belfast, they're beautiful if you see them, but there was a wall mural
to Kieran Nugent, who was very well-known, spent time here, was the first
person – the blanketman - stood up on the blanket protest, withstood that,
refused to wear a criminal uniform because he thought it would betray the Irish
struggle, betray everything that 1916 stood for. And his wall mural has been
taken down and one of Edward Carson, the Unionist leader, the person who refused Home Rule, who
organised the Solemn Covenant, who organised the idea of resistance by
Unionists to any moves to have Home Rule throughout all of Ireland and why he
should be honoured, Edward Carson, in West Belfast, a very strong Republican
heartland, why people should talk about honouring British troops as part of
1916 is something that I just cannot fathom and I wanted to get your
perspective.
Gerry: Yeah well I think it goes back to what I said
earlier about them losing touch with the people. You know it frankly beggers
belief that they would do such a thing. Is it to appease or to impress the
Unionists? Because if that's the case,
if that's the motive, it doesn't work. The Unionists despise that type of
thing! They despise anyone who's trying to, to use the common term, 'suck up'
to them. They would absolutely abhor that and they would see it as a form of
weakness and hold it in the utter contempt that it frankly deserves. Carson,
you know he was primarily responsible for whipping up the fervour that
ultimately led to The Troubles of 1916 but also The Troubles of the 1920's so
there's no legacy there to be proud of and it has to be said, from a Northern
perspective, a Six Counties perspective - my grandparents often told me that
the pogroms which were unleashed against Catholics in The North in the 1920's
were so ferocious – and my grandmother – one of her brothers was so badly
beaten he was an invalid for the rest of his life - they were so ferocious that
the Catholic community was cowed down essentially to my generation in the late
'60's and '70's. So the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force) that he brought about went
on to become the B Specials and the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary) which
suppressed and policed and discriminated against the Catholic population in The
North why would you want celebrate or even acknowledge the existence of these
people? It just utterly beggers belief!
As for Kieran Nugent: Well I remember him in
New York in 1979 and you yourself, Martin, were very instrumental in having his
case brought to the fore and I think it was a huge propaganda coup as I recall
at the time in the Summer of that particular year when he stood at the court
house in Manhattan perhaps dressed only in a blanket and it received enormous
news coverage - thanks primarily I presume to yourself because you were
involved with Irish Northern Aid as one of its Publicity Directors at the time.
And you know, as you said, he refused to wear the British prison uniform and
stood up to them and led to the blanket protest and all the rest as we know. So
to take him down is frankly an
insult to the memory of all Republicans and all families of
Republicans and all others who were involved in the whole prison struggles in
late 1970's and right away through to the hunger strikes and Bobby Sands'
election in Fermanagh-South Tyrone in 1981 to take that down and replace it
with Carson.
Martin: In the United States we honour the memory of
George Washington and those who fought to give us freedom every year on July 4th
and at other events. I've never heard anyone suggest: What about the Redcoats?
What about honouring them or including them or including their memory? People
in Texas remember The Alamo. They celebrate it. They honour it. Nobody says:
What about Santa Anna? Let's bring him in. There are marathons, for example,
there's a New York Marathon, the Boston Marathon (and the only thing I can do
at those things is watch, I can't run) but it's always mentioned that that came
about as an end of a great victory in which the Athenians defeated the Persians
and preserved what was happening in terms of democracy and preventing them
being enslaved and nobody says: But what about those poor Persians who came
there to conquer them? Shouldn't their courage be remembered? Why is it you
have a rebellion in 1916 - the leaders of that rebellion were executed by
British troops. Tom Clarke in particular was brutalised by British troops.
Roger Casement a year later - a 1916 leader was associated with that – was
arrested coming into Kerry - he was hung by the British government. Why would
you honour the memory of those who shot down the leaders, who killed Irish
patriots, who did everything to put down freedom and stop it from coming in to
take its course throughout any part of Ireland - why would you turn to them and
say they should be honoured as part of the commemorations of that period?
Gerry: Yeah, the poor Persians who perished you
might have said. Well I suppose it has to be, and again we refer back a hundred
years ago to Pearse and what he was saying about the population at the time –
that half of it was cowed down and half of it had been bought and paid for by
the British. And the legacy of that, I'm afraid, continues. And we see that -
no other half-decent country in the world, no other self-respecting
nationality would do that. The Poles
would not celebrate the German Army that tramped all over them in September of
1939. That's quite right. Then again we have to say that patriots in this
country require at least a hundred years before they're acknowledged. The same Irish
News you were referring to earlier all last week were eulogising, and quite
rightly so, eulogising those who fought in 1916. But those of a later
generation who fought against the same British forces are being branded as
convicted criminals almost. It'll take another hundred years before the people
in that era are acknowledged for the patriots that they are.
And in other countries of the world patriots, like the United States, are
honoured. They're given, when they're still alive, pension and medals but in
this state they're given convictions and denied work and denied travel
opportunities and all the rest of it. So the slave mentality continues and it's
manifest supreme right now within the leadership of Sinn Féin and poor auld
Mitchel, on his way out now, he's come out of this and it frankly it harkens
back to what I said earlier: They have completely lost touch with their roots
and they're going to find in the forthcoming elections that less people are
going to vote for them. And frankly people don't like not voting if you know
what I'm saying but there's no alternative being put forward and until such
alternative arises this is going to continue to be the case.
Martin: Gerry, you know as a former member of the
Sinn Féin Ard Chomhairle, I know just from working with the Sinn Féin Press
Centre in Belfast and working with Republican leaders for Mitchel McLaughlin to
put forward something like: Let's honour
the British troops - he would not have done that on his own. Usually, Mitchel –
there was a couple of individuals who would be used to float trial balloons to
get the base acclimated to something and if it succeeds, if there's no real
opposition, that's fine – they'll go further - if there would be a great outcry
then they'll say: Well that's Mitchel – he doesn't speak for us. The same thing
is true with the murals in that area. Unless it met with the approval of
leading figures within Sinn Féin then Kieran Nugent's mural would not have been
taken down; Edward Carson's mural would not have been put up. It seems to be
this sorry initiative strategy, this uncomfortable conversation strategy, this
let's honour the Unionists and British troops strategy and that is something
that's supposed to bring about reconciliation and unite Ireland - I told
somebody who was a former blanketman maybe you should have worn a criminal
uniform when you were imprisoned in Long Kesh in the name of a united Ireland –
that's what it seems to be if you're taking down Kieran Nugent. Do you think
that people like Arlene Foster and the others, I know they attended your court
proceedings and jeered and cheered the fact that you were convicted by a
Diplock judge and later imprisoned, do you think that they're in any way
impressed by, moved by, more likely to support a united Ireland based on these
types of gestures that we're talking about?
Gerry: No,
no. I mean, that's a very good observation you've made and no, they won't be
impressed at all. As I said earlier, they'd treat that with the utmost
contempt. I mean it's a misguided policy. I mean the Unionists, from what I
know of them, they really don't want anything to do with a united Ireland at
all under any circumstances but they will admire or at least have some respect
for those who stand by their principles whether or not, well they obviously
don't agree with them, but they'd have nothing but utter contempt for those who
compromise in an attempt to pursue some ridiculous policy that they can
persuade Unionism to suddenly become a force for a united Ireland – it's not
going to – I mean it's in the title: Unionist - with Britain, you know?
They would fight it tooth and nail. So it's clearly not the way to go. You
would obviously be much better off sticking by your principles, principles that
men and women died for within in our lifetime and by betraying those principles
you're betraying the memory of those people and their families and communities.
It's a totally and utterly misguided policy which will amount to a hill of dust
in the finish-up.
Martin: We're talking with Gerry McGeough who has
recently been elected Tyrone County head of the Ancient Order of Hibernians.
And Gerry, I know there's a separation between the Ancient Order of Hibernians
in the United States and the separation in the Ancient Order of Hibernians in
Ireland. I'm hoping – I know that you had visits from some members of the
Ancient Order of Hibernians, Jim Sullivan and others who are over in Ireland
now, and obviously I think hopefully we can work together on issues like this,
on promoting freedom for all Ireland, something that means so much to you who
lives in Tyrone and something that means so much to those exiled children in
America who still care about Ireland.
Gerry: Absolutely! You know what? Jim and his wife
just headed down to Dublin today. They were staying here in Tyrone for a few
days and it was a great pleasure to have them and he was referring to I think
the last Saint Patrick's Day parade in the United States this began at
Gerritsen Beach run by the Kings County Board hoping they get a good turn out
for it and I'm sure that there will be - it's always an honour to have members
of the AOH from the United States because I belong to the same division which
Jim belongs to, Division 35 in Brooklyn, and it's a tremendous honour for me to
be able to say that and members of the AOH are always welcome here in Ireland
and we're delighted to strengthen the bonds between both wings of our
organisation and hopefully that will continue well into the future. And just
before I forget I'd like to take this opportunity also if I may, Martin, to
express my deepest and sincerest condolences on the death of Sandy Boyer who
worked with you on WBAI and was a really tremendous individual and his death,
his loss, I'm sure is sorely missed by all of us.
Martin: Gerry, there will be a memorial to him on
April seventeenth – I know people are working hard on that. I said earlier in
the show, as much as I appreciated Sandy and respected him that has tripled
since just guest hosting the show how much work he put it that week after week
to bring guests like you to the audience.
Gerry: He was an exponent of free speech and a very
courteous individual and I couldn't possibly say a bad word about him and I was
really very saddened on learning about his death some time ago, a few weeks
ago, so I just wanted to share that with you.
Martin: Gerry, we want to thank you and as a result
of you mentioning it to me the Gerritsen Beach parade happened at the same time
as the programme but I did tell people who were listening that there is an
Easter Rising commemoration at Baile Na N'Gael that's going to be held after
the parade so you have time to get to it. Again, I want to thank you, Gerry
McGeough, and we'll be in touch with you in future.
Gerry: Thanks, Martin. Happy Easter! Beannachtaí
.... Bye now.
(ends time stamp ~ 53:18)
A brilliant interview. Well done Martin and Gerry, two sounder men you'll not meet
ReplyDelete