Radio Free Éireann
WBAI 99.5FM Pacifica Radio
New York City
23 April 2016
(begins time stamp ~ 27:25)
John: Listen, Sir Roger Casement did not get the
phone call on the submarine to the lonely Banna Strand but Brendan Matthews, who's an Irish historian out of Drogheda – as I said, Brendan, a
lot of the Americans – and you hear it every once in a while – they call it
Draheda - but it's Drogheda – and you have written about the importance of New
York City to the 1916 Uprising that without New York there probably was no
Uprising.
Brendan: Yeah, Good Afternoon, John, from Ireland here
and from Drogheda. Yeah, I have done a
lot of research over the past year and particularly I followed one man because
what fascinates me is how you view the events of 1916 and from what perspective
you view them. I mean, we're obviously, from our point of view, going to have a
different view of what happened in 1916 say than probably the descendant of
maybe an Irish Orangeman or an Irish Unionist at the time would have completely
different views – that they look upon it as almost an act of terrorism against
King and country is the way that those people would view it. But really to see
what the 1916 Rising was and is all about is to perhaps look at it through the
eyes of a rebel and how I've done that is to actually follow the tale of one of
the seven signatories, literally from the cradle to the grave, and that man was
Tom Clarke. And there is no doubt from my research, which will be published
tomorrow, in just a week - next Saturday, I believe that with Tom Clarke, who
lived some time in New York along with John Devoy from Clann na nGael and a
couple of others – Seán Mac Diarmada as well when Tom Clarke returned from New
York and met up with Seán Mac Dairmada – that without those three being
significant players in the lead-up and to the events of The Rising. It would
certainly would not have happened without Clann na nGael, John Devoy and Tom
Clarke on this side of the Atlantic.
John: You know what Brendan? What's amazing - I've
been reading a lot of books - was the travel between Ireland and New York. It was
constant. I mean Connolly was going back and forth and a lot of the Irish
revolutionaries were going back and forth and even the ones that were sent out
to Australia were making it back to New York. So New York was the epicentre of
literally organising it. But one of the components, and I told you about this
before, because of World War I – you know - England's difficulty is Ireland's
opportunity - maybe tell our audience – because I was just talking about The
Lonely Banna Strand, we were going to play that song about Sir Roger
Casement, about the connection between Germany and this country, World War I
and what was going on with Irish Republicans.
Brendan: Okay, well as you did say, correctly, John,
about the connections between New York, Liverpool and England, where the ships
would arrive and then back to ports in Ireland such as Corcaigh and Dublin. And
just to take it back a wee bit: As you did say about these people were
traveling over and back across the sea, across to Europe from Ireland over to
New York – from New York to Berlin such as Roger Casement was dealing with the
Germans in trying to get some arms landed at Banna Strand on Good Friday. But
you take it back, in the lead-up to that again – when you go back to look at
say for instance the Fenian Movement, and where Clann na nGael stems from, that
Fenian Movement of the late 1850's in America and over here in Ireland then you
had the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Now when you see what was going on in the
1860's during the American Civil War when one hundred and fifty thousand
Irishmen had fought on the Union side in that civil war and some twenty-five
thousand had fought on the Confederate side in the southern states of America –
so you're talking here nearly two hundred thousand Irish men who had been in
the Union Army who were hoping to, what they termed, 'free the Motherland' when
the American Civil War ended in 1865.
Now, when you go back to that period and you
see the amount of traveling that was done – they were jumping on ships and
going to and from Ireland to England to New York and back and forward as if it
was a train line. It was amazing what these people had committed themselves to,
that they didn't have to do it so the question is: Why did they do it? When you
look at, for instance, in the aftermath of the famine in Ireland, as we look
back one hundred years now, so we look back to 1916 – so too was those seven
signatories at the very least were looking back a hundred years. And they
weren't just taking inspiration from the likes of Wolfe Tone and the 1798
Rebellion or the 1848 Rebellion with Thomas Francis Meagher and the raising of
the Irish tricolour for the first time but they were also looking upon the
hardships that their ancestors had to put up with. So take, for instance, from
1800 to 1841 - the population of Ireland rises from around about four million
to almost nine million in forty years. These are people, most of them, who were
living on the hedgerows. We always have to look upon what was the lead-up to
The Rising. So you've now have nine million people in the country. Most of them
had no access to the land. Most of them had no resources from the land. Most of
them had no access to local government or national government and had no
representation in local government and they couldn't even take a wild rabbit
from the land otherwise they would face either three months in prison and in a
lot of cases they were sent for transportation - seven years to Australia which
meant they weren't coming back.
So pretty much they were living like animals
within the context of the 1840's - the Irish were living no better than the
animals - in fact, were probably living worse than the animals around them;
having said that the population continued to rise. So in my research, again, I
look closely at one of the things, which I looked at the Church and how the
Church continued to tell them that they would be rewarded in Heaven and how
they would frown upon any kind of rebellion because the Catholic Church in
Ireland during this period was totally against secret societies, particularly
The Fenians. And if they took The Fenian out they would threaten them with
ex-communication. So they continued, the priests would, throughout the Penal
Days of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, continue to tell people to
procreate yet they were on the verge of starvation.
So by the time the famine came about in the
1840's you had at least a million people dead and more than a million people
emigrating, leaving Ireland, but here in Drogheda, for instance, the second largest
port of emigration after Dublin during the famine and during the period of say
Black 47, the worst year of the famine in 1847, harbour records in Drogheda
today and local newspapers from that period, 1847, clearly show, for instance,
six steamships heading to Liverpool on a daily basis in England from Drogheda
and on board those ships was placed the likes of, in one ship alone: two
hundred cattle, three hundred sheep, two hundred pigs, two hundred boxes of
eggs, 200 hundred boxes of flour, one tonne of corn, one tonne of wheat, one
tonne of barley and whey. Once that food was placed on the boat then the people
were put on the boat and had to go as what was called 'steerage passengers'
standing among the live animals which were being brought to England and
cadaverous looking people literally starving – they couldn't get off the boat –
they literally could not walk and in Liverpool so much that the Liverpool
authorities became alarmed and began to send these cadaverous looking people
back to some ports in Ireland. Now in any estimation if you look up the
definition of the word 'famine' that cannot then
ever be called a famine – that is, if not ethnic cleansing it's
certainly a starvation of the people when they could not gain access to their
own land to abide by that food. Even the wild rabbit or the fish or the bird in
the sky – they could not take that because everything was owned by the gentry.
So many people then did make it across the
Atlantic to The States – made themselves a new home in America but they never
forgot where they had come from and they swore vengeance against the enemy and
the great British Empire which had brought them to look and dream of exile
three and five and seven thousand miles away from their home. So when the
chance arose in the 1860's to join the American Civil War in the hope that when
it was over they would literally come back and free the Motherland. But because
of distance and communication between New York, Liverpool and indeed the ports
of Ireland - because of the Catholic Church and because of specially placed
agents and informers within the Fenian Movement and for the British Crown,
particularly and strategically placed within New York and the ports of
Liverpool – everything that moved – the likes of the greatest British agent
within that Fenian Rising of the 1860's was John Joseph Croydon from Liverpool
who happened to be the head of the Liverpool contingent of Fenians but
everything that moved from New York into Britain was noted by John Joseph
Croydon and hence the collapse of the Fenian Movement albeit there was over one
hundred thousand men involved in that Fenian Movement.
So moving on from the 1860's, so here's
where I come from: Studying Thomas Clarke. Thomas Clarke was the son of a
British soldier. Had been moved around Europe and including British Army
barracks in Ireland – he was born in 1857 and as a kid was brought to South
Africa. His father had fought in the Crimean War in the mid-1850's and then
returned to Dungannon in County Tyrone. And while Tom Clarke was in County
Tyrone in the 1870's he again had seen the Fenian Brotherhood who were
traveling round the country of Ireland giving demonstrations and denouncing the
British system in Ireland where the landlord had the land and the Land War came
about in the 1870's with the landlord and his tenant in Ireland where mass
evictions took place. And Tom Clarke couldn't understand why this colonialism
was still happening and why he said people such as the gentry and the clergy
and commercial business people turned a blind eye to this and didn't want
anything to do - could never dream of rebellion. But his father wanted Tom to
join the army. Tom was having none of it. Tom wanted to stand up for people and
for their rights because he would see them on the side of the road being
evicted, houses being boarded so they couldn't get back into them and seeing
them with no access to the land, no resources from it and all the rest of it.
So at one of these demonstrations Tom had a bit of a skirmish. He'd a run-in
with Royal Irish Constabulary policemen and he was a wanted man so Tom had to
disappear.
So Tom Clarke ended up in America. He ended
up in America around about 1880 – early '81. And of course the first thing Tom
sees when he lands in New York, he gets a job in a hotel in the kitchen, and
the first thing he sees and starts listening to is the hardened older Fenians
who had been there – people who had to go from Ireland in the famine and bring
their kids. People who had fought hard as American soldiers, trained American
soldiers who had also fought in the Civil War and had attempted in the Fenian
Rising in the 1860's and this fascinated Tom. And because at the time when he
lands in the early 1880's, as you're probably aware, John, there was a major
split in Clann na nGael at the time, with O'Donovan Rossa running one faction
of it. They were organising Fenian trips to England and what was known as the
'Dynamite Campaign' and Tom Clarke put his name forward and said that he would
go on one of these dynamite campaigns...Sorry, John...
John: ...No, no – I just saying - we're going to be
stuck for time – We've got about another ten or fifteen minutes. And as you
unfortunately bring up – I mean, Brendan Behan coined the phrase – whenever
Irish people get together and have a meeting the first thing on the agenda is
the split. But you sort of set up where the bitterness comes from and the
hardening of attitudes – not that they left the country and just forgot about
it – like you can see recent emigrants there say: Well unemployment's up. I'm
going to come to New York – you're not coming over with that bitterness. But
you've described the bitterness of these Irish – I don't even want to say
they're emigrants – they were forced exiles – that came over to New York.
And because history plays an important part
- World War I breaks out when they're organising this revolution and I would
like just to bring it up to that era and the connection – because there was a
huge amount of German immigrants at one stage here in the United States. German
immigrants were the biggest part of the population and in some of the schools,
particularly in Pennsylvania, they were teaching German in the schools and a
lot of people were organising against that saying that they should be speaking
English and not German. But maybe you could just bring us up to, historically,
why did the Fenian Movement get involved with the Germans here in this country?
Brendan: Oh, okay. Well in the lead-up to The Rising and
during the First World War for instance there was one I did come across again
in research in American newspapers, particularly there was an interesting
article I came across in an Oklahoma newspaper which was dating to February of
1916 and in that article from Oklahoma it had taken an article from a statement
made in the House of Commons by a man called Joseph Austin Chamberlain who was
the Secretary of State for India at the time in 1916 and he would denounce the
disloyalty of the native troops, so the British native troops as he'd seen it,
in Northern India who, it was due to their activities of anti-British
associations, and they had their headquarters, according to Chamberlain, the
Secretary of State for India, according to him he said the headquarters was in
the United States and they were known as The Hindu
Organisation in the US had been at work secretly since 1907 for an
uprising in India and he stated that it comprised of natives from India who
were highly educated in and around New York and other states in America along
with members of Clann na nGael who were with them and of late, he said, Germans
and American pro-Germans and one of the aims of this organisation was to start
a mutiny in India in 1917. That's a very interesting article because it comes
from February the fifteenth, so a couple of months even before The Irish
Rising, and here you have Clann na nGael who were sitting in secret with the
Hindu Organisation and Germans, Americans who were pro-German, during the First
World War.
The German connection was that Ireland would
strike – England's loss would be Ireland's opportunity - so again when Tom
Clarke had spent sixteen years almost in an English prison and when he got out
he went to New York, 1901, got married there in Saint Augustine's Church in New
York in July of 1901. Clarke stays in New York 'til 1907. Comes back home to
Dublin with his young wife and his kid who was born in the Bronx. And when
Clarke comes back to Ireland he finds an old movement - the older Fenian
Movement – they're too old – they don't want rebellion anymore – they've done
it all back in the 1860's and 70's – they had been in English prisons – now he
finds the younger blood though. And so when Tom opens a shop in Dublin the
younger blood, like John Bulmer Hobson, Denis McCullough, Pat McCartan, Seán
Mac Diarmada, they start arriving into Tom Clarke's shop in Dublin – Clarke,
after leaving New York and telling the boys that as soon as the opportunity
comes – as soon as the British downfall – he said: 'We will strike!'
Tom waited and hoped and waited on the day
that they would get into war with another superpower such as Germany. When that
happened and the other younger members, the young blood like Mac Diarmada and
Pat McCartan and Eamonn Ceannt gathered round Clarke by 1908, revered him
because he had spent fifteen and a half years in an English prison, all most in
solitary confinement, they loved Tom Clarke because of this and Tom Clarke seems
to be the only one from the old movement, along with John Devoy, who is
pushing and wishes to push that as soon as the opportunity arises - so he
begins to plot and plan for a such rebellion from around 1910 – there's no
question about that. He moves out the older people within the Chair – the likes
of Fred Allan who was sitting in the Chair of the old IRB Council in Dublin –
they're moved out of the way - Tom Clarke moves in as the older man and he
starts to guide and dictate and slowly groom the younger blood who forms around
him, including Padraig Pearse who he first meets in February of 1911.
John: Alright Brendan – you know what? We have five
minutes left and I wanted to talk about the influence of the president at the
time, Woodrow Wilson, and about the raid on the German Embassy that
strategically came just before The Rising. If you can give us that and I'll
have you back to continue from there at another stage.
Brendan: Oh, okay, okay. Just a couple of weeks before
The Rising actually, it was in early April of 1916, again, Clann na nGael were
frequent visitors to the German Embassy in Washington and they were hoping
because of the superpowers at war with each other that Clann na nGael would
meet German officers and German officials in the German Embassy, which they
did, and this was getting hot and heavy and there was more meetings taking
place from April of 1916 and they were sending messages to and from –
communicating with German officers in Berlin where Roger Casement also was
addressing German officers - he was looking for men, of course, but the Germans
said that they couldn't really spare any men during the Great War but that they
would send the likes of ten machine guns, twenty thousand rifles, one million
rounds of ammunition, etc - and these are the actual guns and ammunition that
was promised – the cargo of arms that was promised which did land in County
Kerry a couple of days and disaster happened in that the actually arms had to
be sank.
Clann na nGael also had forewarned - so this
was the link between Clann na nGael and getting the German help – so they got
the Germans to help the Irish in The Rising; the Germans were quite willing to
do it. So Clann na nGael had forewarned the German Embassy in April about there
was going to be an eminent raid on their offices by the American Secret Service
and of course the German's response: No, that would be a serious violation of
international law. And John Devoy, in a telegram, responded to them and, in his
words, he said: 'They don't give a damn about the law. They want your papers
for the information for the English and they will get them if they can – law or
no damned law.' John Devoy also, in his Recollections of an
Irish Rebel, which was published in 1929
I think or '26, John Devoy went on to say that Woodrow Wilson was the meanest
and most malignant man who ever filled the office of President of the United
States and that he was waiting on any opportunity to join the Great War on
behalf of Britain which, eventually, that's exactly what happened. But Devoy
had also stated under no certain terms that had there even been a different
President of The States at the time that maybe things could have been a lot
better as in favour of Ireland but that Woodrow Wilson certainly was no friend
of any rebellion or of any Irish Republican Brotherhood at that time.
John: Now do you know – did they get any
information about The Uprising from the raid on the German Embassy? Because
that's an international event – an incident!
Brendan: Oh, absolutely! Sorry John, yeah, they did.
They actually did because they sent word to England. They intercepted the
communications between America and Berlin to the extent that they knew that
there was arms on the way. And they also sent word that there was there was
possibly a rebellion but they didn't know the date and they weren't too sure
because on the English side and in the English House of Commons documented
papers from the period shows that they treated it with a bit of scepticism.
They took note that there was arms maybe going to be delivered from Germany to
the coast of Ireland but they dismissed almost the extent that there wasn't
going to be a rising. They really didn't think there was going to be a rising
at the time that it actually happened. But nonetheless anyway, the boat was
captured on Good Friday and then subsequently it was scuttled and the arms sank
and Casement arrested.
John: Well Brendan, we're going to end it right
there and we're going to bring you back and then maybe take it from there and
find out how they communicated to Dublin about The Uprising and what was the
response here in New York City and throughout this country. Brendan Matthews is
out of Drogheda. They're having a big event this week about commemorating 1916
at the museum there – anybody that's heading over should get up there. And
Brendan, we're going to have you on again. Thank you for coming on.
Brendan: Brilliant, John, thank you. And can I just
say, John, as well: That stuff I and the
story I am telling today - it is going to be published next Saturday by the
Drogheda Museum at droghedamuseum.ie and it's Reflections on the
1916 Rising but I have my tale in there
based on what happened and particularly the connections between Ireland,
America and England which appear at this time, when I see all the things that
are happening in The Centenary, just I think in my belief it seems to be
overlooked at the minute.
(ends time stamp ~ 50:40)
No comments